Thai woman 'preparing to leave UK' after losing immigration battle

[7by7]

New eu law is that langue test is not needed when she have allready family in uk

That is very important news, if correct.

Do you have a source?

[Jay Sata]

The suggestion that there should be flexibility could extend across so much of UK officialdom.

I have had it before with not taking enough of the correct documents to redirect my post to Thailand.

Rules are rules.

How hard is it to get the paperwork correct to avoid these situations?

[7by7]

<snip>

It used to be to be once the best part of 2 years was spent in the country as a spouse they got indefinite leave to remain, I didn't think they could split families

When my wife came to the UK in 2001, family members of British citizens/UK residents applied for ILR after living in the UK for 12 months; so she obtained hers in 2002.

This was raised, in 2003 if memory serves, to 2 years and in July 2012 it was raised to 5 years.

It has always, as far as I know, been the case that if one did not meet all the required criteria for ILR at the end of the residential qualifying period then one could apply for FLR instead, but if one did not meet the criteria for that, then it would be refused and one would have to leave the UK.

The knowledge of life and language in the UK (KoLL) requirement was introduced for citizenship in 2005 and for ILR in 2007.

The A1, or equivalent, in English speaking and listening requirement for the initial visa and for FLR was introduced in November 2010.

As this lady first came to the UK in 2010, one assumes she did so before November.

But she would have needed to have applied for either ILR, for which she'd need KoLL, or FLR, for which she'd need A1 or the equivalent in English speaking and listening, some time in 2012.

(Afterthought: In 2012, when she could have applied for ILR, it was not necessary to have passed the LitUK test; at that time she could have satisfied KoLL by making suitable progress on an approved ESOL with citizenship course.)

From what little detail is given in the article, it appears that she did apply for either FLR or ILR and was refused, and her appeal has been wending it's way through the courts ever since.

As for splitting families; Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a qualified right;

Right to respect for private and family life

1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic wellbeing of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

(My emphasis)

The UK government, and many other European nations with similar language requirements, argue that a language requirement does not contravene article 8.

Edited February 18, 2015 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

I would suggest that after her time in the UK she is probably fully capable of getting through the test paperwork.

[bobrussell]

There are stupid elements to this type of story. One is that if the law does not allow discretion (as it pretty much does) then why are so called legal experts advising appeals when the law clearly makes these are unlikely to succeed?

Very stupid not to allow a proper review which would save the expense and stress of returning to the home country where it is obvious that someone is going to qualify for a visa to come back on the next plane.

By all means charge for the correct visa to be applied for, after all the applicant got things wrong!

[Jay Sata]

There are stupid elements to this type of story. One is that if the law does not allow discretion (as it pretty much does) then why are so called legal experts advising appeals when the law clearly makes these are unlikely to succeed?

Very stupid not to allow a proper review which would save the expense and stress of returning to the home country where it is obvious that someone is going to qualify for a visa to come back on the next plane.

By all means charge for the correct visa to be applied for, after all the applicant got things wrong!

Very few people would not have had a holiday home in that time. Easy to sort it out then.

I

[uptheos]

You know how fussy immigration authorities can be.

Just bite the bullet and do it right next time.

[paz]

Not just Britain, or Thailand but seemingly most countries now. Black and white when it suits them, very grey when they're being held accountable.

Not in Europe. Spouses and of citizens do not even need a visa to enter and stay..

[steve187]

she fist came to the UK on a spouse visa in 2008

[samran]

all that BS just to get your wife back to your country of birth, yet the EU members are bringing them in with no problems

People bang on about 'bloody migrants' and then wonder why the government is so hard on them. You reap what you sow on this one I am afraid.

Always the irony. People want stringent migration rules on everyone, except themselves of course.

[gk10002000]

what is the english test for? Here in the USA I know my grandparents that came from Greece and spoke no english did not get any help from the state on such things. I honestly don't know what the USA requires if anything at all about english. On a daily basis here in California many of the people I interact with do not speak a word of english. Maybe they are all illegal.

[jacky54]

Everyone it seems is in favor of strict immigration controls and tests to get immigrants integrated. But as soon as somebody cocks it all up they become a bleeding heart case wanting exceptions to be made. Do Thai immigration ever make exceptions to the rule, if you made made a mistake and only had 800k in the bank for 80 days and went for an extension are they going to say that's ok matey- no! Kick her out back to Thailand and make her follow the rules as well.

Edited February 19, 2015 by jacky54

[bobrussell]

People should start talking about fair immigration, not strict! Families should stay together unless there is a 'greater good' in not allowing an individual settle. This seems to be a case of the applicant getting it wrong and the rules are pretty clear. Why did this go to appeal? Why was the applicant not told to do things properly several years ago? I suspect this would have been before the strict income requirements came in anyway. There is a big difference between family and economic migrants.

My wife had a somewhat inconvenient trip back to Thailand to sort out her settlement visa but that was what was required under the rules.

The situation is somewhat different for the friend of my wife. She may not have received the best legal advice but she is a widow and the Home Office have declared that the two young British children can live in the UK with a 70 year old grandparent so the mother can be deported! This is morally indefensible IMO also, I suspect illegal under EU law.

Time to look at the standard of legal advice offered to people prior to appeals being lodged!

[Stanaris]

she fist came to the UK on a spouse visa in 2008

Surely if she came to the UK in 2008 then there must have been an application for FLR prior to the one that was refused in 2013 or had she overstayed her original settlement visa?

It would be interesting to actually see the refusal notice but I cannot see that happening.

There appears to be too much that is not being told IMO.

[7by7]

Not just Britain, or Thailand but seemingly most countries now. Black and white when it suits them, very grey when they're being held accountable.

Not in Europe. Spouses and of citizens do not even need a visa to enter and stay..

Really?

This is the first I have heard what is a major change of policy by other European nations!

Do you have a source?

If you mean the EEA freedom of movement regulations, which apply to the UK as well as all the other EEA states, then these regulations cannot be used to bring a non EEA national family member into the country of which the EEA national is a citizen.

So, for example, a Frenchman who wants to settle in France with his Thai wife has to apply under the French immigration rules and meet all the requirements of same.

Unless they are able to use the Surinder Singh route.

If a family are able to use the freedom of movement regulations, they still have to apply to the government concerned for whatever visa/entry permit/residence permit that government requires.

[7by7]

There are stupid elements to this type of story. One is that if the law does not allow discretion (as it pretty much does) then why are so called legal experts advising appeals when the law clearly makes these are unlikely to succeed?

I'm not a lawyer; but my understanding is:-

One reason for appealing is that the decision maker has got it wrong and refused when the requirements of the immigration rules were met and so they should have allowed.

As an aside, one of the reasons given by the government for withdrawing the right of appeal for family visit refusals was that so many (over a third if memory serves) appeals were successful and the refusal overturned. In many cases without the UKBA, as was, even bothering to turn up to the hearing or present any evidence!

Another reason is that although the decision maker got it right, according to the letter of the rules, the rules themselves are unlawful in one way or another; for example they contravene Article 8.

This is one of the arguments in the many current appeals of settlement refusals under the financial requirement. Despite losing most of them the government have appealed to the next highest court and these cases will have to get to the ECtHR before a final decision is made. If the government win there, no change to the rules; if the appellants win the government will have to amend the rules to meet the court's judgement.

[7by7]

what is the english test for? Here in the USA I know my grandparents that came from Greece and spoke no english did not get any help from the state on such things. I honestly don't know what the USA requires if anything at all about english. On a daily basis here in California many of the people I interact with do not speak a word of english. Maybe they are all illegal.

What I know about the USA's immigration rules could be written on a pinhead with room to spare.

However, I remember reading in a biography of Humphrey Bogart that during breaks in shooting on the set of Casablanca he helped Ingrid Bergman study for the English and citizenship tests she needed to pass before she could apply for American citizenship.

That was in 1942; more than 60 years before the UK introduced such tests.

I understand that the USA does not have an official language, so maybe these test can be taken in other languages, for example Spanish.