Who will decide for you if you can't decide for yourself?

[NancyL]

As a foreigner, a hospital will contact your Embassy who will contact your Next-of-Kin. If you're married that will be your wife. If you'd rather not have your wife making decisions on your behalf, then you should be planning now rather than thinking you're too young or healthy for a problem to develop. You're never too young to have a tragic accident.

The way to plan for someone else to make medical decisions on your behalf is to have a Advance Health Directive, sometimes called a Living Will. There is one on the Lanna Care Net website that has been utilized in Chiang Mai dozens of times: http://www.lannacarenet.org/lessons-learned-at-the-end-of-life/

In general, the doctors and hospitals in Thailand are very willing to accept Advance Health Directives.

Incidentally, most Embassies have a provision where you can register on-line to let them know you're in Thailand and who you'd like to designate as your Emergency Contact. For example, the U.S. calls their program S.T.E.P. http://chiangmai.usconsulate.gov/service/smart-traveler-enrollment-program-step.html

Thanks a lot Nancy. That's exactly the answer I was looking for.

Firstly, any vulnerable ex-pat who places their trust in complete strangers under the guise of unregistered outfits would be taking a huge risk, as I have mentioned many times in the past. In my opinion that`s not even an option worth taking into consideration. For me being placed at the tender mercies of strangers or self appointed do gooders would be my worst nightmare.

As regards a so-called instructional living will, this would not be worth the paper it`s printed on unless officially filed with a reputable Thai lawyer and the lawyer becomes a sort of trustee over the testators affairs or in layman`s terms given power of attorney over the testators affairs. Of course anyone who is believed can be trusted can be given power of attorney over a volatile person`s affairs.

The contacting of hospitals and embassies pertains on situations, as everyone`s circumstances is different. An embassy would not become involved with those who already have families here. Many ex-pats living in Thailand have either lost close contact with relatives abroad long ago or have no next of kin abroad. Then there are those who have no close family and friends, or perhaps just acquaintances that are the most vulnerable in Thailand.

I wish to comment on the two paragraphs I highlighted in boldface.

Beetlejuice -- you've brought up the same concerns about Lanna Care Net in other threads and I've invited you to come to our Steering Team meetings and public seminars like the "Lessons Learned at the End of Life" sessions conducted several times a year in your town of Chiang Mai. The British and U.S. consuls are members of our steering team and I think they'd like to hear your concerns.

So far, you've not voiced your concerns in person and I always thought you had deep confidence in your own family taking care of your needs when the time came. Thus, my astonishment with you admission in Post No. 6 that your wife and children don't have your fullest confidence to make decisions on your behalf if you were incapacitated nor have you made any provisions via a Living Will or similar document.

Depending on the circumstances, Beetlejuice, given your lack of preparation and skill sets within your family the day may very well come when your Consulate and/or the hospital is calling upon Lanna Care Net to assist you.

As to your second point of needing to involve a lawyer in drafting and holding a Living Will or Advance Directive -- that's not necessary, if everyone in the family is on board and in agreement as to your wishes. If everyone is going to permit your Health Care Representative to do their job.

This is not the same document as a Power of Attorney for financial decisions. If you have bank accounts in Thailand, even those solely in your name, the banks will release funds to pay medical bills, even if you are incapacitated. However, they will not release funds for other purposes if you are incapacitated -- like to give your family money to pay rent, etc. So yes, you may very well need a POA for financial affairs, but this is very difference than a Advance Health Directive, which does not have to be done by a lawyer.

Edited March 17, 2015 by NancyL

[Johnniey]

Who cares?

Old people who married questionable ladies with financial motives. There are rather a lot in Thailand.

I'd say my wife if she were a lot younger than me but when I am at the age oge of concern i.e maybe 65, sh will be old too. I'll assess the situation when I am about 60 when all my kids will be in their 20/30s and would seem the obvious choice.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Johnniey

[JohnnyJazz]

Who cares?

Old people who married questionable ladies. There are rather a lot in Thailand.

That's for sure. But not only. I know a number of people who have been married to Thai ladies their age, have lived abroad for most of their married life but chose to retire in Thailand. It's only then they realize the power of influence of the family in Thailand and see their long trusted spouse changing little by little into a different person under the influence of the family. Nobody is to blame here. Family is really important in Thailand and you can't go forever against your parents, sibling and extended family. It's a fact of life in Thailand. If you want to stay in Thailand you need to understand that and act accordingly.

Edited March 17, 2015 by JohnnyJazz

[elliss]

Best to form a good trusting bond with several people now. Write and file with a number of those people your Living Will.

If you can find a law office that will hold it for you, good idea also.

But you are in the hands of others...... trust is a rare thing. There is no guarantee of any actions given you incapacitated.

Trust , has limits , and no guarantee.

[NancyL]

Who cares?

Old people who married questionable ladies. There are rather a lot in Thailand.

That's for sure. But not only. I know a number of people who have been married to Thai ladies their age, have lived abroad for most of their married life but chose to retire in Thailand. It's only then they realize the power of influence of the family in Thailand and see their long trusted spouse changing little by little into a different person under the influence of the family. Nobody is to blame here. Family is really important in Thailand and you can't go forever against your parents, sibling and extended family. It's a fact of life in Thailand. If you want to stay in Thailand you need to understand that and act accordingly.

It's not only this, but the fact that few Thai people, especially those with limited education understand the special care needs of elderly foreigners. What types of foods to prepare, how to monitor medications, what questions to ask at doctor's appointments, how to make a home safe for an elderly person, how to keep the person mentally engaged, etc, etc.

I know Beetlejuice has deep reservations about Lanna Care Net, but education and mentoring of Thai caregivers with regard to these tasks is a part of what Lanna Care Net's careworkers do. Many of our people were in the health care field before they retired. It's good there is a concentration of retired folks willing to help in Chiang Mai, which is sadly lacking in the more remote parts of Thailand.

Edited March 17, 2015 by NancyL

[JohnnyJazz]

Nancy I understand you're here to promote the services of your company but this thread is not about home care for the ederly but to have someone you trust making potentially life changing decision for you when you're unable to do so. It doesn't only concerned old people, the friend I was talking about in an earlier post who almost lost his legs in a car accident in China was in his twenties when it happended. Just read the newspapers similar accidents happen on a regular basis in Thailand too. When you are in an ICU in an hospital, you want the right person to make the right decision and for that the hospital needs to know who is the right person for you. That is the object of this thread.

Edited March 17, 2015 by JohnnyJazz

[NancyL]

Nancy I understand you're here to promote the services of your company but this thread is not about home care for the ederly but to have someone you trust making potentially life changing decision for you when you're unable to do so. It doesn't only concerned old people, the friend I was talking about in an earlier post who almost lost his legs in a car accident in China was in his twenties when it happended. Just read the newspapers similar accidents happen on a regular basis in Thailand too. When you are in an ICU in an hospital, you want the right person to make the right decision and for that the hospital needs to know who is the right person for you. That is the object of this thread.

I understand JohnnyJazz. Lanna Care Net isn't a company. It's an organization in Chiang Mai. No one gets paid.

If someone is planning ahead for what happens if they end up in ICU, they should also be planning for who will make decisions for them when they are out of ICU but in hospital and how they will handle post-discharge care. It's not just the crisis situation that requires planning. It's not just old people who need in-home care.

[csabo]

Before coming here, I got my living will from LegalZoom.com when I got my regular will from them also. Cheap, quick, legal. Then locked them both in a safe deposit box and gave the key to my parents and added them to the bank list of box key holders. Then I told everyone in my family of the existence of the documents.

Edited March 17, 2015 by csabo

[Beetlejuice]

As a foreigner, a hospital will contact your Embassy who will contact your Next-of-Kin. If you're married that will be your wife. If you'd rather not have your wife making decisions on your behalf, then you should be planning now rather than thinking you're too young or healthy for a problem to develop. You're never too young to have a tragic accident.

The way to plan for someone else to make medical decisions on your behalf is to have a Advance Health Directive, sometimes called a Living Will. There is one on the Lanna Care Net website that has been utilized in Chiang Mai dozens of times: http://www.lannacarenet.org/lessons-learned-at-the-end-of-life/

In general, the doctors and hospitals in Thailand are very willing to accept Advance Health Directives.

Incidentally, most Embassies have a provision where you can register on-line to let them know you're in Thailand and who you'd like to designate as your Emergency Contact. For example, the U.S. calls their program S.T.E.P. http://chiangmai.usconsulate.gov/service/smart-traveler-enrollment-program-step.html

Thanks a lot Nancy. That's exactly the answer I was looking for.

Firstly, any vulnerable ex-pat who places their trust in complete strangers under the guise of unregistered outfits would be taking a huge risk, as I have mentioned many times in the past. In my opinion that`s not even an option worth taking into consideration. For me being placed at the tender mercies of strangers or self appointed do gooders would be my worst nightmare.

As regards a so-called instructional living will, this would not be worth the paper it`s printed on unless officially filed with a reputable Thai lawyer and the lawyer becomes a sort of trustee over the testators affairs or in layman`s terms given power of attorney over the testators affairs. Of course anyone who is believed can be trusted can be given power of attorney over a volatile person`s affairs.

The contacting of hospitals and embassies pertains on situations, as everyone`s circumstances is different. An embassy would not become involved with those who already have families here. Many ex-pats living in Thailand have either lost close contact with relatives abroad long ago or have no next of kin abroad. Then there are those who have no close family and friends, or perhaps just acquaintances that are the most vulnerable in Thailand.

I wish to comment on the two paragraphs I highlighted in boldface.

Beetlejuice -- you've brought up the same concerns about Lanna Care Net in other threads and I've invited you to come to our Steering Team meetings and public seminars like the "Lessons Learned at the End of Life" sessions conducted several times a year in your town of Chiang Mai. The British and U.S. consuls are members of our steering team and I think they'd like to hear your concerns.

So far, you've not voiced your concerns in person and I always thought you had deep confidence in your own family taking care of your needs when the time came. Thus, my astonishment with you admission in Post No. 6 that your wife and children don't have your fullest confidence to make decisions on your behalf if you were incapacitated nor have you made any provisions via a Living Will or similar document.

Depending on the circumstances, Beetlejuice, given your lack of preparation and skill sets within your family the day may very well come when your Consulate and/or the hospital is calling upon Lanna Care Net to assist you.

As to your second point of needing to involve a lawyer in drafting and holding a Living Will or Advance Directive -- that's not necessary, if everyone in the family is on board and in agreement as to your wishes. If everyone is going to permit your Health Care Representative to do their job.

This is not the same document as a Power of Attorney for financial decisions. If you have bank accounts in Thailand, even those solely in your name, the banks will release funds to pay medical bills, even if you are incapacitated. However, they will not release funds for other purposes if you are incapacitated -- like to give your family money to pay rent, etc. So yes, you may very well need a POA for financial affairs, but this is very difference than a Advance Health Directive, which does not have to be done by a lawyer.

I am not interested in attending any of your seminars regarding these matters unless you are qualified for the job. What experience and qualifications did you have prior to coming to Thailand in dealing with the infirm and the elderly? Are those who work on your team vetted and checked for criminal records?

How about registering your company/s, displaying any qualification certificates you and your team may have and becoming a Thai visa sponsor if you really want credibility and publicity. Do that and I`ll attend all your meetings

[Beetlejuice]

Nancy I understand you're here to promote the services of your company but this thread is not about home care for the ederly but to have someone you trust making potentially life changing decision for you when you're unable to do so. It doesn't only concerned old people, the friend I was talking about in an earlier post who almost lost his legs in a car accident in China was in his twenties when it happended. Just read the newspapers similar accidents happen on a regular basis in Thailand too. When you are in an ICU in an hospital, you want the right person to make the right decision and for that the hospital needs to know who is the right person for you. That is the object of this thread.

You are right.

25 years ago I had an Australian bar drinking buddy. He was 31 years old and used to teach part time at the Montfort school in Chiang Mai.

On one lThursday afternoon while at work, Craig suffered a massive stroke that left him totally paralysed and unable to speak. Craig never had insurance or enough funds to remain in hospital and was taken back to his apartment where a few of us volunteered to take turns in being with him over 24 hour periods. We managed to trace his parents in Australia who flew over with their daughter, paid and supervised Craig`s trip back to Oz.

But I wonder if similar happened to ex-pats that had no insurance coverage, has little wealth or on limited budgets and had no close family or friends back in the home country, who would assist them? My guess is, left to die. From my experiences the embassies have been of little no help in these types of cases.

[NancyL]

Beetlejuice, I've said this before -- I'd really wish you'd accept PMs from other Thai Visa members. I feel so sorry for you, especially after learning that you don't have confidence in your wife and children making the right decisions for you, yet you don't have an Advance Health Directive.

From your previous posts, I know you live near Chiang Mai yet you refuse to come to a free Lanna Care Net public seminar on Lessons Learned at the End of Life and simply listen to what we have to say -- as an anonymous person in an audience of over 50 people and perhaps learn something that may be of value.

So, so sad.

I'd really like to say this in a PM, but can't because you've disabled this function.

Lanna Care Net was put together by the British and U.S. Consul to address exactly the sort of need your friend Craig had. You and your friends were doing Lanna Care Net activity, but you didn't have the training we've had, nor did you have the connection or communication with the Embassies we do.

I could ask the same questions of you with regard to your friend Craig that you ask of me. What gave you, an untrained do-gooder, the right to interfere with his life? Isn't that something that should have been handled by his family and Embassy? What training did you have before you came to Thailand to help someone with a stroke, and so forth.

But, as you saw, despite your lack of training you somehow managed to make something good happen, didn't you? You managed to contact Craig's parents and they organized his return to Australia. That was an amazing thing to do. I would think that you, of all people, should understand both why there's a need for a group like our and also why people want can willingly help others without being motivated by trying to steal from them, etc, as you always seem to imply from your posts when you talk about our group. You didn't steal from Craig did you?

Edited March 17, 2015 by NancyL

[JimGant]

Nancy, thanks for all your time and dedication in trying to help your fellow ex-pats. Certainly a lot more constructive than just whining and bellyaching, as so many on this forum seem to do.....