"concept Of Face" For Women

[bettyblaspheme]

Hi Ladies.

I was recently thinking about the Thai concept of face and how it applies to women. As a feminist, I was considering what the implications of what this concept were, for a someone who plans to marry a Thai and live at least part time in The Kingdom.

Thoughts?

[bettyblaspheme]

Should i remove "feminist"?

Actually, on another, more (acceptable/answerable?) line of convo, anyone know where to get Oriental Princess products in Aust?

Edited September 1, 2006 by bettyblaspheme

[mittheimp]

have you met 'the thai' yet?

[bettyblaspheme]

have you met 'the thai' yet?

heh how cute of you.

umm, yes "the thai" is my boyfriend. I dont really do the whole, umm "cyber" thing, so yeah.

Thanx for the input though. It was very, umm....enlightening.

The reason i ask is, some things he does are totally contradictory to what ive heard "traditional" thai men do. He basically seems very supersitious, but he is for example, very affectionate in public...etc etc.....

I just wanted to know anything at all about this idea, cause where im from, the concept of face is loose and individually based, rather than "socially" based.

Edited September 1, 2006 by bettyblaspheme

[mittheimp]

someone once told me that Thailand doesnt have any inequality issues regarding women - as unlike Japan and England you never see women protesting in Thailand. I wasn't totally convinced of his logic!

Your welcome for my enlightened comment!

[sbk]

I don't think face has much to do with feminism, hence the lack of response on my part.

Granted there are mens roles and womens roles but I don't think they have much to do with face. ie a man who is willing to do the dishes isn't going to lose face because he does so, a woman who is willing to help build houses won't lose face for doing so.

Because mens and womens roles are defined differently here than they are at home men (and women) can appear more casual about things that would set the homophobe radar quivering back home. I know Thai men who carry small string bags, not because theyare effeminate, ladyboys or even gender confused but because they run the taxi boats and it is a convenient way to carry their money. Unlike in the west, they are not judged as being gay for this, just for being practical.

I know this goes off the topic of face but I hope it clarifies that my opinion that face isn't gender based. Yes, men tend to be more adamant about it, and more violent when losing face but women can be that way too.

Face has more to do with how a person behaves in a public manner, how they show their emotions, how they deal with a stressful situation, how they appear to others.

[orlandoiam]

On the other hand perhaps there is something to gender related face-saving, if we were to think of our own relationships (assuming in this case we're heterosexuals).

If we were in public, and in a potentially face-losing situation... either the boy or girlfriend has to lose face. Who is more likely to "lose face?" Would the girlfriend more likely sacrifice her "face," for the sake of her lover's?

Although I'm speaking a bit theoretically, or vaguely, it seems like this kind of situation might arise all the time between married couples and their families.

It certainly happens often enough in the west.

"Saving-face" is a rather distancing term, isn't it? The concept alone seems to separate us (falang) from them (Thai). Is saving-face simply the avoidance of what could be termed an embarassing situation? For example, not admitting a lie/mistake (even when confronted) because that would be "embarassing."

In contrast to Thailand, it seems that in the West, if we were to not admit a lie/mistake when directly confronted we are even more embarassing or perceived as being more foolish (and infuriating). In fact, it seems to me that apologising or admitting a mistake is often seen as a way of "gaining-face" in the West, while here it seems more of a way of losing it.

In a sense, it seems like both cultures try to maintain their sense of dignity and hold on to outsiders' respect. It just seems we use entirely different means to maintain it.

Sorry, I know this was actually a gender directed topic... but I too, got hooked on the "saving face" bit. I'm ill informed about saving face between the sexes...but I'm sure there are gendered aspects to it as well.

At least there seem to be between my boyfriend and I.

[bettyblaspheme]

Thanks heaps for the thoughful replies, thats all clarified alot.

I didnt mean to make it a gender based dicussion, hehe, sorry, i just wanted to know, if at all "face" was affected by sex, and it seems that "face" is the same for both genders in Thailand, except that women (surprise surprise) are more willing to sacrifice face for a man in their life to save it? I guess thats similar here to a certain extent too...

Edited September 2, 2006 by bettyblaspheme

[GuestHouse]

I've managed a department of Thai engineers, mixed gender 15 men 6 women. I've also managed Thai construction teams where the women out numbered the men and I've managed Thai client/subcontractor contracts where the clients/subcontractor mamagers have been both men and women.

My observation is that face is hugely important and that there is no gender difference between the two in terms of how they react to maintaining face.

There are differences in attitudes to problems across face where men will take offense more readily if a woman causes a conflict - But, and you must understand this, class differences are hugely more important than you might think. Anyamount of abuse can be dished out by someone further up the class structure without face becoming an issue.

Where this is going to affect you is you are and always will be a Farang.

I've seen very senior Foreigners removed from projects over face issues with Thais who are pretty low down in the organization. That would never ever happen with a Thai/Thai conflict.

"Feminist marrying a Thai" - Best of luck!

[bettyblaspheme]

So by virtue of being farang, im kinda occluded from the intricacies of face, and as long as i follow the general things then it should be ok?

I was mainly thinking along the lines of, for example, my man is older than me, and a man, so would it make him lose face for me to say question/correct him infront of his mates etc...

Once again thanx for the info all, this is all helping me learn alot!

"Feminist marrying a Thai" - Best of luck!

Hehe, its that bad is it?

[sbk]

Depends on what you are correcting him on and how you do it, but to be honest, I wouldn't correct my partner in front of someone else regardless of his nationality. No one likes to be shown up in public.

[kat]

I was mainly thinking along the lines of, for example, my man is older than me, and a man, so would it make him lose face for me to say question/correct him infront of his mates etc...

"Feminist marrying a Thai" - Best of luck!

Hehe, its that bad is it?

Uhm, yes. Happens everywhere, but that is a big no-no especially in Thai culture. I haven't responded because your questions start at square one, are too general, and quite frankly, a little slanted toward the Western, politcally-correct tempplate which don't really apply here. I'm not sure you'd want to hear the full range of feedback on this topic, so it's best you do a little research on your own, or talk to women with Thai husbands, and not women without.

*edit: I also want to add something, in case the above comment comes across as too harsh or unfriendly; it's not meant to be. But there are many women here with different experiences - those that are married or date Thai men, and those who do not. They are all valid in their own right, and there are dominant patterns that exist on their own, regardless.

My not responding has absolutely nothing to do with your feminism or politics.

Edited September 4, 2006 by kat

[GuestHouse]

So by virtue of being farang, im kinda occluded from the intricacies of face

That isn't what I was saying - As a Farang you will be well down the pecking order if problems arise.

I think what Kat says about things you might not want to hear also applies.

[mouse]

Just by indicating your ability to understand the concept and trying to gain more knowledge on the subject by asking, will make you sucess in any situation. Some women are smart cookies and others are cookie smart.

[Malee]

I didnt mean to make it a gender based dicussion, hehe, sorry, i just wanted to know, if at all "face" was affected by sex, and it seems that "face" is the same for both genders in Thailand, except that women (surprise surprise) are more willing to sacrifice face for a man in their life to save it? I guess thats similar here to a certain extent too...

I dont agree about this - in my opinion thai ladies are more sensitive about face. And about not making your boyfriend loose face, just use normal, respectful behavior. Respect is the key word, more important than we can understand. My husband is thai, but the most important thing about him is not that he is thai - its that he is perfect for me!

[GracelessFawn]

Well said, Malee.

[bettyblaspheme]

Wow i didnt know i could piss so many people off (seemingly so deeply!) with 14 posts!

I agree, the only reason these questions occured to me, were because i read this site. So actually, my experience in Thailand and with Thai people abroad is that they are the same culturally as me..... These questions come from my reading here and other expat sites. Anyway, I will "crawl back to the toxic site i came from" (id love to know what that site is, as im only on myspace and some music sites)

I dont have politics really. Im an australian and i dont even vote (oh yeah, btw, its compulsory for Aussies to vote), thats how unpotlitical i am. I do however have some societal views, which i need to reconcile with being in love with someone who (possibly?) has (almost innately?) opposing views.

Im sorry, sometimes i feel imtimidated,(i left school in yr 10 and currently dont even qualify to get a job in Thailand etc...and im now 25) by others who are obviously more intelligent than me. I dont mind discussion, and as a realisitic human being, i dont think, i wouldnt be able to handle any response. I want to learn...thats all. I only posted this on this forum rather than the general forum, to get a more level response.

To me, being a feminist isnt a bad thing, so yeah, im proud to be someone who wants equal rights for all humans regardless of gender (and actually that isnt politcally correct, sorry, politically correct is cautiously retaining the status quo...). I would say that the bar girls who "screw the farang men over" are feminist in their own way. So in my opinion, Thailand is a hot bed of female advancement (i am a 3rd wave feminist, who doesnt care about porn, stripping, prostitution etc, as long as its consenting and not degrading etc...and i do know that alot of thai women are being expoilted, but there are alot [most?] who arent....)

No doubt i seem "farang" in my questions, and i didnt realise that was a bad thing, on an expats (read farang?)forum. Since i plan to be an expat, i was doing research. Realistically, i only have these "farang" style questions because of things ive read here!! Maybe its cause the Thais i know, both in the kingdom and in Aussie are younger? Cause theyre Deknaew?

Im terribly sorry to have been so much trouble, im merely trying to learn, and trust me, i did searches for all possible combinations of "women and face/concept of face" etc. I could only find men commenting on it, from a male perspective.

This may sound sensitive, but i dont need non constructive criticism from people i dont know....so i wont make your forum "toxic" anymore......

Edited September 5, 2006 by bettyblaspheme

[kat]

***flame deleted***

***flame deleted***

Wow i didnt know i could piss so many people off (seemingly so deeply!) with 14 posts!

I agree, the only reason these questions occured to me, were because i read this site. So actually, my experience in Thailand and with Thai people abroad is that they are the same culturally as me..... These questions come from my reading here and other expat sites. Anyway, I will "crawl back to the toxic site i came from" (id love to know what that site is, as im only on myspace and some music sites)

I dont have politics really. Im an australian and i dont even vote (oh yeah, btw, its compulsory for Aussies to vote), thats how unpotlitical i am. I do however have some societal views, which i need to reconcile with being in love with someone who (possibly?) has (almost innately?) opposing views.

Im sorry, sometimes i feel imtimidated,(i left school in yr 10 and currently dont even qualify to get a job in Thailand etc...and im now 25) by others who are obviously more intelligent than me. I dont mind discussion, and as a realisitic human being, i dont think, i wouldnt be able to handle any response. I want to learn...thats all. I only posted this on this forum rather than the general forum, to get a more level response.

To me, being a feminist isnt a bad thing, so yeah, im proud to be someone who wants equal rights for all humans regardless of gender (and actually that isnt politcally correct, sorry, politically correct is cautiously retaining the status quo...). I would say that the bar girls who "screw the farang men over" are feminist in their own way. So in my opinion, Thailand is a hot bed of female advancement (i am a 3rd wave feminist, who doesnt care about porn, stripping, prostitution etc, as long as its consenting and not degrading etc...and i do know that alot of thai women are being expoilted, but there are alot [most?] who arent....)

No doubt i seem "farang" in my questions, and i didnt realise that was a bad thing, on an expats (read farang?)forum. Since i plan to be an expat, i was doing research. Realistically, i only have these "farang" style questions because of things ive read here!! Maybe its cause the Thais i know, both in the kingdom and in Aussie are younger? Cause theyre Deknaew?

Im terribly sorry to have been so much trouble, im merely trying to learn, and trust me, i did searches for all possible combinations of "women and face/concept of face" etc. I could only find men commenting on it, from a male perspective.

This may sound sensitive, but i dont need non constructive criticism from people i dont know....so i wont make your forum "toxic" anymore......

Betty:

I think you misunderstood my last post. I wasn't telling you to go back to the toxic dump site my little sister, I was telling ***flame deleted*** who posted before me to bug off. Any cursory check of my prior posts would clear that up for you, lol.

My only point was that I can't really have a dialogue with you on this, because you state that you find Thai people culturally similar to you. I can't think of any statement further than the truth, both objectively and subjectively. I don't mean this in a negative way at all, it just tells me that you do not yet know the questions to ask because you have not really experienced the differences.

*one other thing: formal education has little to do with intelligence in my book. It only enhances, trains, and expands what you have. Don't feel down on yourself for not having a formal education. Some of the smartest people I know are self-educated. Resourceful use of the internet can open up a world of learning. Let me know if you want some recommendations.

Edited September 6, 2006 by sabaijai

[GuestHouse]

To me, being a feminist isnt a bad thing, so yeah, im proud to be someone who wants equal rights for all humans regardless of gender (and actually that isnt politcally correct, sorry, politically correct is cautiously retaining the status quo...). I would say that the bar girls who "screw the farang men over" are feminist in their own way.

So is your third wave feminism about equal rights regardless of gender or is it about screwing men over?

[LaoPo]

...and im now 25).........

To me, being a feminist isnt a bad thing, so yeah, im proud to be someone who wants equal rights for all humans regardless of gender

Well, you're a brave girl. I suppose you found the right man and country to start your 'mission'.

LaoPo

[kat]

I would like to add that I agree, being a feminist is not a bad thing, but it does not help to look at what is going on here through Western-tinted glasses. What is happening here has nothing at all to do with female empowerment.

Like I said, it is fruitless to get into a discussion about this, because there is no way to know from afar, or from superimposing a Western-made template. No way of knowing that you don't know, either, until you know.

One of those things I'm afraid.

[gisele]

I have been living here for a few years, been coming here for 8 years, am married to a Thai man, have 2 children yet I have to admit that when it comes to understanding the concept of face, I mess up on a regular basis, mostly at work.

It just so hard for me to adjust to an environment where accountability is almost non-existant and efficiency is a hit and miss idea rather than an objective.

And frankly, I am often so frustrated when mistakes are made and rather than focusing on solving the problem (of course efficiency would have avoided the whole problem in the first place) an inordinate amount of time is spent on assigning blame.

I especially am confused when I am the victim of others mistakes yet the table is turned and I must defend my work. In these instances I find that in my quest to show the truth, I probably have caused people to lose face.

[kat]

I have been living here for a few years, been coming here for 8 years, am married to a Thai man, have 2 children yet I have to admit that when it comes to understanding the concept of face, I mess up on a regular basis, mostly at work.

It just so hard for me to adjust to an environment where accountability is almost non-existant and efficiency is a hit and miss idea rather than an objective.

And frankly, I am often so frustrated when mistakes are made and rather than focusing on solving the problem (of course efficiency would have avoided the whole problem in the first place) an inordinate amount of time is spent on assigning blame.

I especially am confused when I am the victim of others mistakes yet the table is turned and I must defend my work. In these instances I find that in my quest to show the truth, I probably have caused people to lose face.

Incredibly well stated. You just summed up the hopelessness of trying to assign a rational value to the concept; there isn't one! It is just about double-standards, lack of accountability, and the big person blaming the mute little person. That's it, as far as I've experienced it.

[Jai Dee]

Grapetable and Donz, I suggest you give the ladies enough respect to leave them in peace to discuss what they want in their own forum... without unsolicited and unwanted responses from you.

Please read the Ladies in Thailand Forum Rules before deciding to post here again.

[gisele]

I have been living here for a few years, been coming here for 8 years, am married to a Thai man, have 2 children yet I have to admit that when it comes to understanding the concept of face, I mess up on a regular basis, mostly at work.

It just so hard for me to adjust to an environment where accountability is almost non-existant and efficiency is a hit and miss idea rather than an objective.

And frankly, I am often so frustrated when mistakes are made and rather than focusing on solving the problem (of course efficiency would have avoided the whole problem in the first place) an inordinate amount of time is spent on assigning blame.

I especially am confused when I am the victim of others mistakes yet the table is turned and I must defend my work. In these instances I find that in my quest to show the truth, I probably have caused people to lose face.

Incredibly well stated. You just summed up the hopelessness of trying to assign a rational value to the concept; there isn't one! It is just about double-standards, lack of accountability, and the big person blaming the mute little person. That's it, as far as I've experienced it.

It is comforting to know that I am not alone with this experience.

I sometimes have to remind myself of this mentra: "it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter"

but lately, more often than not, the general atmosphere seems to be getting to me.

I don't want to be bitter about my life here, I love my husband, my children and my home.

Of course, I encounter the same lack of accountability and efficiency most anywhere but I don't have to endure it on a daily basis like at work so it is easier to shrug it off at the market or at the government offices.

I feel I must take more and more breaks from the work environment else go crazy. And if they tell me to "jai yen yen" one more time when I am not happy about a mistake I am subjected to, I swear I'll

[sbk]

Yes, I too find the lack of accountability annoying, but then I am the boss so it doesn't affect me as much. However, I do see a fair amount of the "blame game" in my husband's family. Being the farang I am both the victim of it and left out of it too. ie "its her fault but since she's a farang it doesn't really matter". Not all the time and certainly not in all situations, but it has happened.

But, I don't think it really has anything to do with being male or female, it applies to all people, equally.

One thing in Thailand, I guess, where gender roles aren't such a big factor. I think men and women deal with face and loss of face in different ways, but the concept remains the same.

[LaoPo]

One thing in Thailand, I guess, where gender roles aren't such a big factor.

I think men and women deal with face and loss of face in different ways, but the concept remains the same.

Are you sure...or do I misunderstand?

LaoPo

[sbk]

One thing in Thailand, I guess, where gender roles aren't such a big factor.

I think men and women deal with face and loss of face in different ways, but the concept remains the same.

Are you sure...or do I misunderstand?

LaoPo

regarding face, was what I thought I was saying, sorry I wasn't clear.

[LaoPo]

Thanks; everything clear now.

LaoPo

[Sheryl]

Where I think gender does occasionally kick in is where you need to be aware of things that would cause the man to lose face because of gender stereotypes. For example, it may be a loss of face for him if you pay the check openly (fine to slip him some money under the table or before or after; it is the public appearance that counts). And contradicting him in front of other people may cause loss of face -- this is not entirely a gender thing (openly contradicting anyone in public can be seen as a loss of face), but I think there is more sensitivity over a woman doing it to a man than vice versa or among persons of the same sex.

The extent to which these things are the case varies by individual and depends a lot on their social group, age etc. Will also vary depend upon who is present.

I think one just needs to be aware of the issue and sensitive to how the other person is feeling.