Train driver may have been at fault for crash in Ayutthaya: SRT chief

[Lite Beer]

Train driver may have been at fault for crash in Ayutthaya: SRT chief
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- POLICE expect to conclude an inquiry soon into a train crash that injured more than 50 people late on Thursday night in Ayutthaya's Phachi district.

"In two days, we should gather enough solid evidence to press charges against [the alleged] wrongdoers," Provincial Police Region 1 deputy commissioner Maj-General Sanit Mahathavorn said yesterday.

The State Railway of Thailand (SRT) has cleared the track and said the accident did not disrupt overall train services.

SRT governor Wutthichart Kanlayanamit said the ongoing investigation suggested that the driver of train No. 107 travelling from Bangkok to Denchai failed obey a stop signal.

"The accident was very likely caused by his recklessness," Wuttichart said.

Because of the impact by the crash, train No. 69 travelling from Bangkok to Nong Khai was derailed and overturned.

The incident caused more than Bt80 million in damages and injured over 50 people.

While most victims received minor injuries, at least three were seriously hurt.

Train technician Termpong Singchuwong, 38, lost his right arm after it was crushed while train driver Sompon Karnbanchee, 48, is in danger of losing a leg although doctors were confident they can save it.

As of press time, seven victims remained in hospital. Two of them are foreigners.

In a statement, the SRT has vowed to take care of the injured.

The accident took place a day after the SRT celebrated its 118th anniversary.

Damage was estimated at Bt80 million.

Suttida Kaewbang, who is visually impaired, was on board train No. 107. "I heard the big bang and the next minute I fell down on the floor," she said.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Train-driver-may-have-been-at-fault-for-crash-in-A-30256906.html

-- The Nation 2015-03-28

[thesetat2013]

But don't any of you travelers worry OK. The SRT will be improving their facilities soon so you can rest comfortably at the station before you board the train

[BSJ]

I'll quote what I said in another thread:

"If I remember correctly the rules for running trains on a single track system (with electric signals) include:

1/ Being vigilant at all times.

2/ In the hours of darkness or inclement weather calculate train speed/distance covered so that the crew can anticipate the arrival at the next station.

3/ Be aware of train schedules for the days running.

4/ Reduce speed if necessary

5/ Stop the train at the next home signal, use the trackside phone and contact train control if signal failure occurs.

If the rules are written properly and the train crew do their job accidents should not happen!"

'1/ Being vigilant at all times.' is critical, NOT being vigilant is NOT an option. They should throw the book at the driver if he indeed did pass the Home signal.

[ExPratt]

'The State Railway of Thailand (SRT) has cleared the track and said the accident did not disrupt overall train services'

That tells you how frequent the service isn't. Mobilised heavy lifting equipment (Crane) got it to site along with other rolling stock, removed fouling or re railed rolling stock , repaired probably a shed load of busted sleepers, consolidated the track (Packed) and they didn't "Disrupt the service"

I don't know what signaling they have but I'm pretty sure when a train runs up another trains arse its usually driver error. If the signalling isn't working they have 10kph (Differs from country to country) rules and that only after speaking to whoever is in charge of Track signaling, some countries its The Signalman, Train controller in others its the Station Managers, They should not proceed until confirmed track clear and safe

[BSJ]

I see the powers that be have blocked a web link to the Da-ily Ma-il concerning the accident. "wwwdotdailymaildotcodotuk/.../Pictured-Mangled-wreckage-train-collision-Thaila..."

Wonder why?

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I see the powers that be have blocked a web link to the Da-ily Ma-il concerning the accident. "wwwdotdailymaildotcodotuk/.../Pictured-Mangled-wreckage-train-collision-Thaila..."

Wonder why?

Been off for a while , I cant explain why without being nicked.I believe the People in charge thought there may have been some serious LM committed by the Mail

[Lupatria]

They blame the train driver? They must be running out of evil spirits. I'm still searching for the guy with the black paint in the photo.

[halloween]

'The State Railway of Thailand (SRT) has cleared the track and said the accident did not disrupt overall train services'

That tells you how frequent the service isn't. Mobilised heavy lifting equipment (Crane) got it to site along with other rolling stock, removed fouling or re railed rolling stock , repaired probably a shed load of busted sleepers, consolidated the track (Packed) and they didn't "Disrupt the service"

I don't know what signaling they have but I'm pretty sure when a train runs up another trains arse its usually driver error. If the signalling isn't working they have 10kph (Differs from country to country) rules and that only after speaking to whoever is in charge of Track signaling, some countries its The Signalman, Train controller in others its the Station Managers, They should not proceed until confirmed track clear and safe

What it tells you is that there is triple track at that point, and while 2 were blocked, the 2nd was cleared quite rapidly by removal of displaced bogies (from the earlier threads).

There are 35 passenger services TO Ayutthaya from BKK each day.

[wabothai]

2 drivers on each train. Sounds familiar?

[scorecard]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

'The State Railway of Thailand (SRT) has cleared the track and said the accident did not disrupt overall train services'

That tells you how frequent the service isn't. Mobilised heavy lifting equipment (Crane) got it to site along with other rolling stock, removed fouling or re railed rolling stock , repaired probably a shed load of busted sleepers, consolidated the track (Packed) and they didn't "Disrupt the service"

I don't know what signaling they have but I'm pretty sure when a train runs up another trains arse its usually driver error. If the signalling isn't working they have 10kph (Differs from country to country) rules and that only after speaking to whoever is in charge of Track signaling, some countries its The Signalman, Train controller in others its the Station Managers, They should not proceed until confirmed track clear and safe

There's also the so called dead mans break. Often meaning:

• - The driver has to keep a pedal depressed with his foot at all times. If he goes to sleep a good chance he/she loses attention to the pedal and it springs up and automatically applies the train brake.
• - A button which the driver must press every 60 seconds or similar. Forgets or goes to sleep, button is not pushed, brakes automatically applied.

But some drivers 'disable' these functions; put a brick on the pedal, jam the button to the pressed position. Not sure if this is still possible with more modern technology.

[Sooo Upto Me]

No doubt the train driver will blame brake failure.

Well at least he didn't do a runner.

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

'The State Railway of Thailand (SRT) has cleared the track and said the accident did not disrupt overall train services'

That tells you how frequent the service isn't. Mobilised heavy lifting equipment (Crane) got it to site along with other rolling stock, removed fouling or re railed rolling stock , repaired probably a shed load of busted sleepers, consolidated the track (Packed) and they didn't "Disrupt the service"

I don't know what signaling they have but I'm pretty sure when a train runs up another trains arse its usually driver error. If the signalling isn't working they have 10kph (Differs from country to country) rules and that only after speaking to whoever is in charge of Track signaling, some countries its The Signalman, Train controller in others its the Station Managers, They should not proceed until confirmed track clear and safe

There's also the so called dead mans break. Often meaning:

• - The driver has to keep a pedal depressed with his foot at all times. If he goes to sleep a good chance he/she loses attention to the pedal and it springs up and automatically applies the train brake.
• - A button which the driver must press every 60 seconds or similar. Forgets or goes to sleep, button is not pushed, brakes automatically applied.

But some drivers 'disable' these functions; put a brick on the pedal, jam the button to the pressed position. Not sure if this is still possible with more modern technology.

Nowadays with Modern rolling stock I don't thing you can override them certainly not "Mechanically" and probably not electrically, having said the that Thai rolling stock is about equivalent of what we had in the mid seventieths and early 80 if that good (Anyone know the year of their rolling stock in this case.I don't know the Signaling protocol in Thailand but if its anything like Malays old Railway who for the most part didn't have any track circuit they had semaphore signals. They even used to mess these up by people forgeting to give the supervisor the key. The signaling was basically station to station with Station manager controlling access to his section. In the event of signal failure, if the station manager is sure his line is clear from outer Home signal to outer signal he will allowable train to pass at 10kph.

So dead mans handle shouldn't come into it if you are following rules

The new trains and Track should be fitted with ATP, expensive but safe , I'm not a signal/Systems man but know a bit about it and the boys who fit have to do months of testing before it gets commissioned. Which makes me wonder who will commission the signaling on these projects m must be overlooked by Government or contractors working as Government consultants. SRT will not have the people with the expertness or very few to take on Signalling commissioning

[JAG]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

'The State Railway of Thailand (SRT) has cleared the track and said the accident did not disrupt overall train services'

That tells you how frequent the service isn't. Mobilised heavy lifting equipment (Crane) got it to site along with other rolling stock, removed fouling or re railed rolling stock , repaired probably a shed load of busted sleepers, consolidated the track (Packed) and they didn't "Disrupt the service"

I don't know what signaling they have but I'm pretty sure when a train runs up another trains arse its usually driver error. If the signalling isn't working they have 10kph (Differs from country to country) rules and that only after speaking to whoever is in charge of Track signaling, some countries its The Signalman, Train controller in others its the Station Managers, They should not proceed until confirmed track clear and safe

There's also the so called dead mans break. Often meaning:

• - The driver has to keep a pedal depressed with his foot at all times. If he goes to sleep a good chance he/she loses attention to the pedal and it springs up and automatically applies the train brake.
• - A button which the driver must press every 60 seconds or similar. Forgets or goes to sleep, button is not pushed, brakes automatically applied.

But some drivers 'disable' these functions; put a brick on the pedal, jam the button to the pressed position. Not sure if this is still possible with more modern technology.

Nowadays with Modern rolling stock I don't thing you can override them certainly not "Mechanically" and probably not electrically, having said the that Thai rolling stock is about equivalent of what we had in the mid seventieths and early 80 if that good (Anyone know the year of their rolling stock in this case.I don't know the Signaling protocol in Thailand but if its anything like Malays old Railway who for the most part didn't have any track circuit they had semaphore signals. They even used to mess these up by people forgeting to give the supervisor the key. The signaling was basically station to station with Station manager controlling access to his section. In the event of signal failure, if the station manager is sure his line is clear from outer Home signal to outer signal he will allowable train to pass at 10kph.

So dead mans handle shouldn't come into it if you are following rules

The new trains and Track should be fitted with ATP, expensive but safe , I'm not a signal/Systems man but know a bit about it and the boys who fit have to do months of testing before it gets commissioned. Which makes me wonder who will commission the signaling on these projects m must be overlooked by Government or contractors working as Government consultants. SRT will not have the people with the expertness or very few to take on Signalling commissioning

The existing Thai Railway signalling installations were for the most part built and installed by Westinghouse Brake and Signal of the UK. Basic 1930s technology.They are relatively simple and robust mechanical lever frames with electro mechanical interlocking. More distant points and signals are electrically operated but still controlled by the lever frame. Simple, robust and fail-safe. Asfar as I know there is no form of Automatic Warning System which applies the brakes if a train passes a signal at danger, but with two men in the cab of the locomotive you should not need one, providing they follow the rules and don't pass signals at danger!

The new "High Speed Rail System" being talked about will presumably come with state of the art solid state electronic signalling systems, with cab signalling and some form of Automatic Train Control.

[Lokie]

Not knowing the full details, but just a few things to throw in the ring for you peeps;

- Most modern railways run on the Absolute system (1 train, in 1 section, at 1 time) the section being a signalling section, if we achieve this then there should never be a collision or crash. In certain areas we have 'Permissive' working where you can have more than 1 train in a section at 1 time.

- There a few safety devices normally employed which should prevent 'Driver' error,

- AWS (Automatic Warning System)

if a driver passes a clear signal he gets a bell, he then presses a cancellation button (this keeps Vigillance) If he accidentally passes a Danger signal (or signal in the On position he gets a Horn sound, once again he must cancel this by pressing a button, this then tells him he has committed a SPAD (Signal Passed At Danger) he should then stop and get straight on the SPT (Signal Post Telephone) and speak with the Signaller/Controller for that section (in certain countries this may well be from Cab to shore Radio (I am only versed in UK railway procedures)

If he fails to cancel as above on a Red Danger signal then the AWS system automaticlly applies the brakes of the train and brings it to a stop.

The other System on all Trains is the DSD (Dead Mans Saftey Device) This is either a treddle which he depresses with his foot or on DMU/EMUs can be a handle power controller which has to be held down, if the driver has a Heart attack or collaspes at the controls then this once again releases the DSD and will apply the breaks of the Train/Vehicle (as said I am quoting UK terminology and it will have various names in differant countries but the principle is the same.

Thing is don't be too quick to blame the driver, it could have been faulty signalling or PWay, the head of the Railways is gonna say its all tickety -Boo now aint he (and seems pretty fast to announce that to me? but then I suppose the Thai Railways have a lot more experiance of investigating incidents the Thai way and coming up with the right answears?

Signaller for instance may have been pulled off for him and then thrown back against him for all we know?

Do they have TCA? Track circuit actuators? this shows the presence of trains in signalling sections, thus signallers/contollers can bring trains to a stop... yes there is mor e to this than meets the eye, and finally if it is Single line, by directional then a token system should be in use (ensures only one train can travel through at one given time. If single directional then the signals should have automatic features that prevent a train runing into an occupied section (as may have happend in this case)

So it will be 1 of 3 things:

Driver error or he had an episode (collapsed etc)

Infrastructure fault (Signalling/Pway)

Signallers error

Edited March 28, 2015 by Lokie

[Lokie]

Yes I did not mention ATP but then not all countries run this, I doubt Thailand has it (neither has much of the UK even though the Tory Goverment at the time of the Clapham disaster said they would have in installed within 5 years of the Hidden report into the episode)

And as mentioned all of these systems can be by-passed, Circuit Breakers tripped out, Flags raised in cabs (By-pass switches) weights on DSD devices you may aske why trains have the ability to have switches/by pass devices, well sometimes you need this to clear a failed train off the line to a sidings/depot for repairs etc if its Knackered. Drivers doing this are playing with peoples lives and if caught in the UK then they are dismissed instantly nowadays

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Not knowing the full details, but just a few things to throw in the ring for you peeps;

- Most modern railways run on the Absolute system (1 train, in 1 section, at 1 time) the section being a signalling section, if we achieve this then there should never be a collision or crash. In certain areas we have 'Permissive' working where you can have more than 1 train in a section at 1 time.

- There a few safety devices normally employed which should prevent 'Driver' error,

- AWS (Automatic Warning System)

if a driver passes a clear signal he gets a bell, he then presses a cancellation button (this keeps Vigillance) If he accidentally passes a Danger signal (or signal in the On position he gets a Horn sound, once again he must cancel this by pressing a button, this then tells him he has committed a SPAD (Signal Passed At Danger) he should then stop and get straight on the SPT (Signal Post Telephone) and speak with the Signaller/Controller for that section (in certain countries this may well be from Cab to shore Radio (I am only versed in UK railway procedures)

If he fails to cancel as above on a Red Danger signal then the AWS system automaticlly applies the brakes of the train and brings it to a stop.

The other System on all Trains is the DSD (Dead Mans Saftey Device) This is either a treddle which he depresses with his foot or on DMU/EMUs can be a handle power controller which has to be held down, if the driver has a Heart attack or collaspes at the controls then this once again releases the DSD and will apply the breaks of the Train/Vehicle (as said I am quoting UK terminology and it will have various names in differant countries but the principle is the same.

Thing is don't be too quick to blame the driver, it could have been faulty signalling or PWay, the head of the Railways is gonna say its all tickety -Boo now aint he (and seems pretty fast to announce that to me? but then I suppose the Thai Railways have a lot more experiance of investigating incidents the Thai way and coming up with the right answears?

Signaller for instance may have been pulled off for him and then thrown back against him for all we know?

Do they have TCA? Track circuit actuators? this shows the presence of trains in signalling sections, thus signallers/contollers can bring trains to a stop... yes there is mor e to this than meets the eye, and finally if it is Single line, by directional then a token system should be in use (ensures only one train can travel through at one given time. If single directional then the signals should have automatic features that prevent a train runing into an occupied section (as may have happend in this case)

So it will be 1 of 3 things:

Driver error or he had an episode (collapsed etc)

Infrastructure fault (Signalling/Pway)

Signallers error

I doubt they are used to working with proper signaling or those kind of safety fail safes, SRT the same as KTMB in Malaysia mainly work on single track with the odd turnout and loop and siding for passing , nearly all hand throw Turnout, they are just used to a very laid back system/ AS you say nothing will happen , it doesn't sound like its been investigated properly. They shrug their shoulders about this same in Malaysia , they keep doing it and keep doing it and then people die

Do they still use Temporary Magnets dug into the 4ft In Uk for Temp speed restriction ? I can recall digging loads of those in the late 80s

I don't know what the line speeds are here but I wonder if the old "Train stops" would work , They are no widespread in the UK only Underground an BR DC track. You may or may not have seen them. It s basically a pneumatic foot on the outside of 4ft, when a signal is red the foot comes up if the Train keeps going the foot trips the trip cock on the train basically turning the Train off. They are a thing of the past but pretty fool proof

Edited March 28, 2015 by ExPratt

[rockingrobin]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Not knowing the full details, but just a few things to throw in the ring for you peeps;

- Most modern railways run on the Absolute system (1 train, in 1 section, at 1 time) the section being a signalling section, if we achieve this then there should never be a collision or crash. In certain areas we have 'Permissive' working where you can have more than 1 train in a section at 1 time.

- There a few safety devices normally employed which should prevent 'Driver' error,

- AWS (Automatic Warning System)

if a driver passes a clear signal he gets a bell, he then presses a cancellation button (this keeps Vigillance) If he accidentally passes a Danger signal (or signal in the On position he gets a Horn sound, once again he must cancel this by pressing a button, this then tells him he has committed a SPAD (Signal Passed At Danger) he should then stop and get straight on the SPT (Signal Post Telephone) and speak with the Signaller/Controller for that section (in certain countries this may well be from Cab to shore Radio (I am only versed in UK railway procedures)

If he fails to cancel as above on a Red Danger signal then the AWS system automaticlly applies the brakes of the train and brings it to a stop.

The other System on all Trains is the DSD (Dead Mans Saftey Device) This is either a treddle which he depresses with his foot or on DMU/EMUs can be a handle power controller which has to be held down, if the driver has a Heart attack or collaspes at the controls then this once again releases the DSD and will apply the breaks of the Train/Vehicle (as said I am quoting UK terminology and it will have various names in differant countries but the principle is the same.

Thing is don't be too quick to blame the driver, it could have been faulty signalling or PWay, the head of the Railways is gonna say its all tickety -Boo now aint he (and seems pretty fast to announce that to me? but then I suppose the Thai Railways have a lot more experiance of investigating incidents the Thai way and coming up with the right answears?

Signaller for instance may have been pulled off for him and then thrown back against him for all we know?

Do they have TCA? Track circuit actuators? this shows the presence of trains in signalling sections, thus signallers/contollers can bring trains to a stop... yes there is mor e to this than meets the eye, and finally if it is Single line, by directional then a token system should be in use (ensures only one train can travel through at one given time. If single directional then the signals should have automatic features that prevent a train runing into an occupied section (as may have happend in this case)

So it will be 1 of 3 things:

Driver error or he had an episode (collapsed etc)

Infrastructure fault (Signalling/Pway)

Signallers error

I doubt they are used to working with proper signaling or those kind of safety fail safes, SRT the same as KTMB in Malaysia mainly work on single track with the odd turnout and loop and siding for passing , nearly all hand throw Turnout, they are just used to a very laid back system/ AS you say nothing will happen , it doesn't sound like its been investigated properly. They shrug their shoulders about this same in Malaysia , they keep doing it and keep doing it and then people die

Do they still use Temporary Magnets dug into the 4ft In Uk for Temp speed restriction ? I can recall digging loads of those in the late 80s

I don't know what the line speeds are here but I wonder if the old "Train stops" would work , They are no widespread in the UK only Underground an BR DC track. You may or may not have seen them. It s basically a pneumatic foot on the outside of 4ft, when a signal is red the foot comes up if the Train keeps going the foot trips the trip cock on the train basically turning the Train off. They are a thing of the past but pretty fool proof

The magnets in the 4' , I am presuming you are meaning the AWS system which is still in use on the UK railway , ( coloured yellow for non third rail and green for third rail), in addition following on from accidents and SPADs a system known as TPWS is utilised at critical signals which basically takes the control away from the driver, if the train passes a signal at danger (RED) then the system makes an emergency brake application and brings it to a standstill.

The TPWS was designed and installed because it was cheaper than the alternative ATP, however it should be noted that the TPWS system if it fails it will be wrong side

Even in the UK SPADs happen frequently and the psychology of the train driver passing a number of signals displaying a green or proceed aspects can lead him to unconsciously ignore a stop signal

[Si Thea01]

So now they're driving trains like they drive their cars. What's not stopping at a red light amongst friends. Doesn't red mean ok to proceed,, green to sit and wait, then move off at a snails pace or yellow, don't know, so I'll just floor it.

[Benmart]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I see the powers that be have blocked a web link to the Da-ily Ma-il concerning the accident. "wwwdotdailymaildotcodotuk/.../Pictured-Mangled-wreckage-train-collision-Thaila..."

Wonder why?

Been off for a while , I cant explain why without being nicked.I believe the People in charge thought there may have been some serious LM committed by the Mail

I don't have any trouble reading it. PM me if you like.

[BSJ]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I see the powers that be have blocked a web link to the Da-ily Ma-il concerning the accident. "wwwdotdailymaildotcodotuk/.../Pictured-Mangled-wreckage-train-collision-Thaila..."

Wonder why?

Been off for a while , I cant explain why without being nicked.I believe the People in charge thought there may have been some serious LM committed by the Mail

I don't have any trouble reading it. PM me if you like.

Well I certainly don't want to get Ex-pratt into trouble on my account, so I will fill in the blanks myself.