Major Education shake-up

[Baerboxer]

The director of my school asked us foreigners firmly to step forward with ideas to improve the overall performance of the school. When some of usdid, the standard answer was that things are not done that way in Thailand.

I used to work with some American colleagues who would always inquire how you and the family were. They simply wanted to here "good" and never expected any bad news or lengthy answer. It was just a stock greeting with an expected stock answer - not a sincere question asked out of interest.

You've experienced a Thai equivalent. When they ask farangs for ideas, comments, suggestions or criticisms, they expect a simple smile, nod and nothing more. They don't actually want or expect you to really do it!

You have to present things in a way that they can show as coming from them, that it's their idea etc. All tied up with the face culture and the Thai interpretation of politeness.

Offering ideas, comments, suggestions or criticisms is easy if you don't have to worry about implementing them.

Overcoming barriers (costs, cultural, red tape, etc.) to implementation is not so easy.

Try looking at things from their perspective.

Have a nice day.

Then why bother asking for ideas, comments etc - if you have no real wish to receive them?

And that is the real culture here - they don't want to do anything that might require extra effort, inconvenience or work, especially change which is scary.

They are the classic example of Einstein's definition of madness. And, they ain't on their own.

[geriatrickid]

Since Thaksin came into office in 2001, proclaiming himself an education PM, little has improved in the field of education. It must be because the civil service hasn't changed. Thaksin and all of his 'puppet' governments used to change Educations Ministers at least every six months to give each of them some time to feed at the trough. It's kind of impossible for a Education Minister to get the civil service to respond when the civil service knows the minister will be replaced soon. There was no expectation of change. Now, utilizing Article 44 of the interim Constitution, Prayut has put the fear of losing their jobs on the table if things don't improve. That is something the complacent civil service is not used to. As for inviting Farangs, who, admittedly, generally do a better job at education, they wouldn't be listened to so it is best to have Thais reform Thais. Motivation is the key and job security can be a good, if harsh, motivator.

Once again you are factually incorrect, and use this thread to raise the issue of Thaksin. It is both tiresome and downright dishonest.

The ministers were not changed every 6 months during the Thaksin administration. A change in ministers has rarely had an impact on the way a Thai government ministry does things. Change is always resisted and the refrain is, but this is the way we have always done things.

The indisputable fact is that the key bureaucrats have never really changed. The Thaksin administration inherited bureaucrats who had been there previously, and when he was deposed, those bureaucrats remained. Some were there for the Abhisit administration, then Yingluck and now the new military administration. In Thailand, it is difficult to terminate a bureaucrat. The bureaucrats in Thailand are a class of workers who get moved about, but who remain. If someone was incompetent at the MOE, he/she will be incompetent at the MOT or MOPH etc.

I had a good laugh at the article, because it was factually incorrect, attributing the wrong names and genders to some of the people referenced.

Let's take an example to illustrate my point;

permanent secretary Suthasri Wongsamarn will be removed and appointed as secretary general of the Office of the Education Council. He will be replaced by Kamjorn Tatiyakavee, secretary-general of the Office of Higher Education Commission (Ohec).

Suthasri isn't a he. Dr. Suthasri is a woman and she has been at the MOE since the late 1970's. She's a career bureaucrat.

Tell me why Kamjorn Tatiyakavee should be anywhere near the MOE? I believe he was trained as a pediatrician and has outside interests as they term it. No argument that he is a smart and capable man, but is he someone who should be tasked with education department responsibilities?

The icing on the cake is that you are probably unaware that the MOE has an admiral as a minister and a lt. general as his right hand mam. How are these people considered competent to set educational policy as you assume they will? All that the the big general has done is to shuffle the cards in the deck. The same problems remain. Nothing has really changed. Nothing. Prayut has not put the fear of losing jobs in 99% of the employees in the ministry because even he, despite the clout of Section 44 can't terminate the rank and file bureacrats on a whim.

The problem with the MOE and other ministries in Thailand is its structure. there are over 50 offices and bureaus within the MOE ministry, before it even gets down to the regional level. Everyone seems to have a title. Lots of bureaucrats, but comparatively few education specialists.

[englishoak]

While they continue shuffling people sideways instead of sacked and charged with corruption noting will change, its got little to do with ruling governments but rather the parasitic bureaucratic civil servants entrenched in the education system, some from back in the 70s.

No one will dare mess with that only move them sideways, and they will continue to keep things the way they always have been, thats the tragedy.

[rametindallas]

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You can`t educate the masses as they will be able to see what the rest of the world can, keep them thinking they are clever and the rest of the world is stupid, easy ride for the elitists and politicians etc, Thainess at its best alt=clap2.gif> alt=clap2.gif> alt=clap2.gif>

quandow is of the opinion that all Thais have mastered English so I guess it is true. Just the majority of non-Thais that know there is a grat lack of understanding of the English language

Below is your post that quandrow replied to:

gandalf12, on 18 Apr 2015 - 00:54, said:

Mentions nothing of upgrading the education just shuffling people around. They need to start getting inline with the rest of the countries in the world regarding education. Thailand is one of the few countries left that does not teach English in the schools.

Without English, right or wrong, the world is pretty much closed to you

quandow's reply:

Not quite sure what Thailand you're living in, but I have been teaching English for years in the Thailand I've been living in. It's one of the few jobs expats can get.

Your reference to quandow's post in your reply to 26vinny:

quandow is of the opinion that all Thais have mastered English

My answer to your last post:

Misconstrue what others post, much?

quandow called you on your wrong statement so you misconstrue what he said?

Now, the question is, what kind of reputation do you want on this forum?

[selftaopath]

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Thailand needs to sit up and take notice of what Vietnam did a few years back. They closed all schools for 1 year, then sent the teachers back to school. They brought in foreign professionals to completely retrain all the Vietnamese teachers. Once that was done, they reopened the schools and sent everyone back. Within a year, Vietnam's international scores showed a definite increase, and they have been improving ever since then. Bold move for a Communist country.

But would Thailand even consider something like that? We all know the answer to that question.

I can add to the comments about Vietnam.

Two years back I had the permanent secretary for education for Vietnam in an English language MBA class in Ho Chi Minh City. Local campus of a very good offshore uni. The guy already has a Ph.D. in Education from a Scandinavian country.

Very credible young man, a visionary, 'can do' guy, highly intelligent and very rational, very pragmatic and practical, good listener, perfect English, very pleasant, a natural leader. He was highly motivated and his enthusiasm motivated the whole class. His personal goal: 'the educational inputs needed to build a balanced successful civil society'.

Their role model for their education renewal is Singapore, and as said above they are making great progress.

Thailand does have people like the guy I've mentioned above, plenty of them. The sad fact is that:

- The political approach - These folks have avoided politics in the past because they didn't want to be associated with the scaly incapable dishonest folks who owned, operated / joined the political parties of the past.

- The bureaucratic approach - These same folks didn't get involved because the people who end up in the high ranking positions are mostly political appointees who struggle to know what day of the week it is and have zero interest in the subject matter at hand.

Hopefully some changes in the pipeline.

Thank you for your post.

Hopefully.... change yes.... realistically .... very very doubtful.

[Beng]

Let's wait and see.

[Lupatria]

Let's wait and see.

Congrats! At least one poster seem to have adopted the Thais first rule of handling issues.

[NCC1701A]

take one or two out and execute them. things will move along at a quicker pace after that.

[selftaopath]

While they continue shuffling people sideways instead of sacked and charged with corruption noting will change, its got little to do with ruling governments but rather the parasitic bureaucratic civil servants entrenched in the education system, some from back in the 70s.

No one will dare mess with that only move them sideways, and they will continue to keep things the way they always have been, thats the tragedy.

While I agree, the reality is some country in ASEAN must be last, most uneducated, least competent. Maybe that is Thailand role.

Maybe other ASEAN countries will welcome uneducated/ unskilled workers.

[osiboy]

if 60% of students time {so i have been informed}is spent learning about former kings and/or budda its no wonder they are so bad at other subjects far more important in todays world , .....history, economics, maths , english, geography ,.....they have all heard of australia but most dont know its a continent or how its a "farang" country and even if they are there they have no interest ...."no importan" , they dont know if their business is even making money ,{a calculator helps of coarse !} they just see that it comes in and goes out , they have no idea about their role in the vietnam or 2nd world war or where the French held thai territory as a few examples , ....how many Thais could travel knowing ANYTHING about the country they would visiting ? , ...as long as "crean and suay " then its a good country , like saudi or russia maybe ? ,.....geography and history need to incude polotics, and the truth hurts so it's not a major subject , .....i found them to be the most usefull wherever i have travelled , im not saying dont have royal or religious teachings but a resonable balance would help !,..........theres another world out there ! ,........ if it doesnt share a border with Thailand they have no idea where other continents are alone countries ,....and that includes most high school teachers here too,.....this country needs to wipe the slate clean , kick a few asses and start again {similar to viet }using many many,... pref from western EU that speak engish as a first language , to me , i think it would be better for the world if they dont use as many chinese teachers as i imagine they will use chinese history which has gone full circle but shows little humanity and could add that to thier own teachings while they are at it !

Edited April 19, 2015 by osiboy

[Kiwi1]

It seems likely that the fundamental problem is lack of political will to make any significant improvement in mass education in Thailand.

As mentioned, examples of excellent mass education systems are to be found in the region.

Taiwan and Singapore both have fine education systems, Singapore's has been developed comparatively recently. I understand the Taiwanese built on a model introduced by the Japanese who in turn designed their's on the late 19th Century German system.

I did not know about developments in Vietnam, but this certainly sounds like another success.

If the Thai government was serious about reforming mass education, then this could be introduced with little trouble or expense.

Simply set up a number of model schools as pilot projects for new approaches.

These would only need to run for a couple of years to see how well they met local needs.

Given a viable model that had been objectively evaluated, the new system, could be introduced by stages over a number of years.

Singapore can give guidance on this.

Costs would be trivial compared with the potential benefits.

There are many Thais who have great potential and I hope the time comes when more of them have a chance to show what they can do.

[quandow]

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Mentions nothing of upgrading the education just shuffling people around. They need to start getting inline with the rest of the countries in the world regarding education. Thailand is one of the few countries left that does not teach English in the schools.

Without English, right or wrong, the world is pretty much closed to you

Not quite sure what Thailand you're living in, but I have been teaching English for years in the Thailand I've been living in. It's one of the few jobs expats can get.

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Well you have not made much of in impression on the Thais. Very few speak enough English to get by with in a country other than Thailand

Really?!? Have you paid NO attention to what we've been writing about?!? These kids figure out by the time they're 8 that they don't have to perform and we STILL have to give them a high passing grade. Maybe YOU should go back to school and learn to read English!

[cornishcarlos]

My wife was just offered a lecturing position at Suratthani University. Monthly wage 22k !!

How exactly are they going to improve education with wages like that ?

She won't be taking the job

[Mr Somtam]

No chance of reform...ever.

This country is run by the elite, at the expense of the uneducated.

If the general population of Thailand were to be well educated, the major institutions of Thailand would topple.

Religion, Monarchy and the Hiso elite would fall overnight

REFORM.....NO WAY SOMCHAI!

This is the truth. Tell this to a Thai person and you will have a BIG argument, or worse. But they don't have time to listen anyway, too busy watching Lakorn and playing Facebook...

[Mr Somtam]

My wife was just offered a lecturing position at Suratthani University. Monthly wage 22k !!

How exactly are they going to improve education with wages like that ?

She won't be taking the job

It's a calling and you have to "give from the heart"

[Mr Somtam]

It seems likely that the fundamental problem is lack of political will to make any significant improvement in mass education in Thailand.

As mentioned, examples of excellent mass education systems are to be found in the region.

Taiwan and Singapore both have fine education systems, Singapore's has been developed comparatively recently. I understand the Taiwanese built on a model introduced by the Japanese who in turn designed their's on the late 19th Century German system.

I did not know about developments in Vietnam, but this certainly sounds like another success.

If the Thai government was serious about reforming mass education, then this could be introduced with little trouble or expense.

Simply set up a number of model schools as pilot projects for new approaches.

These would only need to run for a couple of years to see how well they met local needs.

Given a viable model that had been objectively evaluated, the new system, could be introduced by stages over a number of years.

Singapore can give guidance on this.

Costs would be trivial compared with the potential benefits.

There are many Thais who have great potential and I hope the time comes when more of them have a chance to show what they can do.

When they do not belong to the elite they can forget about it! Or be a uni professor for the salary a toiletcleaner makes in another country...

[Lunchbob]

I have met a few, perhaps 10 or 15, Thai elementary school teachers and deans of small schools and know them quite well over several years. The teachers just are not dynamic, creative intelligent people. It is a low paying job that attracts those who can't do much else and have kind of backwards social beliefs, very dictatorial, ego centric, etc... Don't question authority, get in line, memorize the bad lessons leftover from the rural class paradigm. Most kids now are more interesting because of the Internet, than their parents or teachers.

How can you fix that? Imagine a 43 year old teacher making 45,000 a month and as dumb as a rock. But, she's been in a school for 10, 12, 15 years? Fire her and then what? What can she do? How do you get rid of thousands of rocks like this one? You can't. How can you re teach an entire lifetime of bad ideas? How do you change this failed 43 year old teacher into a creative, critical thinker with the courage to break with tradition, protectionism, corruption?

I don't know. The only answer I have is for smart parents to get together and start their own schools, get involved with every aspect of the school, the curriculum, the teachers, etc...

[cornishcarlos]

My wife was just offered a lecturing position at Suratthani University. Monthly wage 22k !!

How exactly are they going to improve education with wages like that ?

She won't be taking the job

It's a calling and you have to "give from the heart"

Well that is what she said to me too... She added that she will get rich 1st, then teach when she doesn't need to pay bills

[Mr Somtam]

My wife was just offered a lecturing position at Suratthani University. Monthly wage 22k !!

How exactly are they going to improve education with wages like that ?

She won't be taking the job

It's a calling and you have to "give from the heart"

Well that is what she said to me too... She added that she will get rich 1st, then teach when she doesn't need to pay bills

Now! That's my girl!

[waitforusalso]

And Yingluck was removed from office for the transfer of 1 official.

Good ol Section 44, eh?

[cornishcarlos]

My wife was just offered a lecturing position at Suratthani University. Monthly wage 22k !!

How exactly are they going to improve education with wages like that ?

She won't be taking the job

It's a calling and you have to "give from the heart"

Well that is what she said to me too... She added that she will get rich 1st, then teach when she doesn't need to pay bills

Now! That's my girl!

No, that's my girl... Get your own !!

[kriswillems]

I wonder if this reshuffle is a step forward or a step backwards....
Does Prayuth have modern ideas about education?
Brainwashing children with his 12 points doesn't look very modern to me.

[Mr Somtam]

I wonder if this reshuffle is a step forward or a step backwards....

Does Prayuth have modern ideas about education?

Brainwashing children with his 12 points doesn't look very modern to me.

One word: dinosaur.