Thailand Orders DNA Verification in British Backpacker Murders

[Jacob Maslow]

A Thai court has ordered independent verification of DNA and other physical evidence that allegedly links Burmese migrant workers to the murder of two British tourists. Lawyers of the suspects say the move could help ensure a fair trial.

A Koh Samui court made the ruling, finding that Thailand’s Central Institute of Forensic Science should be granted permission to retest the DNA samples that allegedly links the suspects to the murders of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge. The institute will also re-examine the physical evidence, which includes a shirt that one of the suspects wore.

The two tourists were visiting Koh Tao on holiday when they were tragically killed. Witheridge, 23, was raped and beaten to death. Miller, 24, was hit on the head and left to drown in the surf.

The DNA evidence has been criticized by human rights groups. Reportedly, many people had trampled all over the crime scene before police had a chance to seal it off. There’s great concern that the two suspects could face an unfair trial as a result. The forensic science instituted is questioning why local police did not use qualified experts to collect the DNA evidence.

Both suspects have retracted their confessions, which is another concern. Allegedly, the confessions were extracted under torture.

-- 2015-05-01

[TheMysteriousMrTesla]

Finally!

Now, if the BiB would just hand over the genuine samples please ...

[boomerangutang]

There have been other times (in this case) when hopes lifted - thinking there would be a thorough investigation, ....only to have hopes splashed with a bucket of cold water. I would rather be hopeful than cynical, but many of us had hopes (in Oct/Nov '14), when hearing British investigators would be allowed to look at (and search for) evidence - and those hopes were dashed - when the Thai PM restricted them to 'observer status' - in effect; telling them they could do no investigative work, and only rely on what police spokespeople chose to tell them.

[boomerangutang]

Finally!

Now, if the BiB would just hand over the genuine samples please ...

Where have the original samples been held? ....if they still exist. In a medical lab or in an RTP fridge? Who was in charge of labeling the samples? Who first informed the RTP brass that the samples found in Hannah matched the Burmeses' DNA? These questions, and more, are a part of verifying the DNA trail, and it is hoped that the new set of experts (government or non-government?) leave no stone un-turned.

[colinneil]

DNA samples to be checked, should have been done months ago, before police had chance to contaminate them or infact change them.

Anybody who believes police would not do that are very nieve.

I personally have been involved with Thai police fabricating evidence, resulting in my spending days in prison.

[JLCrab]

From post above: ... many of us had hopes (in Oct/Nov '14), when hearing British investigators would be

allowed to look at (and search for) evidence -

From MURDER ... OF BRITISH NATIONALS ABROAD (2011)

Memorandum of Understanding between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and

Coroners' Society of England and Wales

3.4 The FCO cannot investigate deaths overseas.

[boomerangutang]

From post above: ... many of us had hopes (in Oct/Nov '14), when hearing British investigators would be

allowed to look at (and search for) evidence -

From MURDER ... OF BRITISH NATIONALS ABROAD (2011)

Memorandum of Understanding between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and

Coroners' Society of England and Wales

3.4 The FCO cannot investigate deaths overseas.

Are you and JD hoping there will continue to be an inept investigation of the double murder/gang rape?

There have been many instances of murder investigations being at least partially investigated by people who are not nationals of the country where the murders took place. Do you want me to do the googling for that data, or would you save me some time, and do it yourselves?

Just one (of probably tens of thousands of examples): A Dutch diplomat in Bangkok had a suspicion that a Nepalese murderer had fled to Thailand, and suspected he had killed a Dutch woman in Thailand. The Dutchman did some sleuthing and found the Nepali man's address in Bkk. He informed Thai police. Thai police went to the apartment, asked to see ID. The Nepali's passport appeared to be in order, so that was the end of it for Thai cops. Later, the Nepali went on to murder a few more young farang women. The Nepali's passport was later found to be a fake.

Edited May 1, 2015 by boomerangutang

[JLCrab]

You can Google all you want -- that is straight from the book.

[JLCrab]

You said above that you heard that a UK team was going to be allowed to conduct an independent investigation. I think it is time to get your hearing checked.

[chainarong]

One needs to remember that a senior police officer, involved in this case , in one of the many media stops couldn't help himself with telling all who would listen that the DNA indicates that it wasn't an Asian person, now the lawyers for the two accused are wise to the occasion , I would be inclined to request that they send the sample to Singapore for analysis , going on previous history of the clowns in brown , I agree that contamination and sample interference has occurred , however a far more positive no holds barred forceful response from specialist un-corrupt people from Singapore would carry more weight than from an independent lab in downtown BKK .

[Bakseeda]

DNA samples to be checked, should have been done months ago, before police had chance to contaminate them or infact change them.

Anybody who believes police would not do that are very nieve.

I personally have been involved with Thai police fabricating evidence, resulting in my spending days in prison.

I am sure you mean a police station cell.... and Not Klong Prem... You had luxury....

[Rhys]

Sadly the case verdict has been conveniently made.... Just look at the history of tragic cases like these from the past.

For the Parents and family, I trust closure comes.... soon.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Rhys

[thailandchilli]

You can Google all you want -- that is straight from the book.

Not everything has to be carried out by the book http://www.samuitimes.com/breakthrough-murdered-backpacker-kirsty-jones-investigation/

[DLang]

Quick switch.

Game over.

Na khrap.

[colinneil]

DNA samples to be checked, should have been done months ago, before police had chance to contaminate them or infact change them.

Anybody who believes police would not do that are very nieve.

I personally have been involved with Thai police fabricating evidence, resulting in my spending days in prison.

I am sure you mean a police station cell.... and Not Klong Prem... You had luxury....

No i do not mean police station.I was in buriram prison.

[DLang]

Anybody that believes in, has any sort of faith in the police and judicial system, simply hasn't been here long enough to understand.

[DLang]

Will the defense be calling the original chief of the investigation, and questioning him why the evidence he collected pointed to resident business owners of the island, and after declaring such was removed from the investigation the next day?

[boomerangutang]

You said above that you heard that a UK team was going to be allowed to conduct an independent investigation. I think it is time to get your hearing checked.

First off, I didn't use the word "independent" before 'investigation.' Don't change my text, and then comment upon it.

And, as usual, what I stated was true. When the two PM's (UK and Thai) met in person, there was an agreement to allow Brit investigators to be involved. Was the agreement for 'actively involved or peripherally involved,' we don't know for sure, but I wouldn't doubt the Brit PM went away from the meeting thinking Brit investigators would be involved - in assisting the investigation of British subjects murdered.

The next day, when the Thai PM returned to Bkk, he announced 'observers only.' Later, it was shown the Brits were barely observers (of the investigation). Instead, they got briefed by a subjective Thai official who probably didn't even speak decent English. I've been to several Thai police stations, and of the dozens of officers there, not one could speak any English. Even a Thai who purports to speak English, can only speak in simplistic sentences, usually all present tense. I wonder if the Brits recorded the briefing they were given by the Thai. Isn't that what a professional does, particularly if there are any translation issues? If there is a recording, we (the general public) are no more likely to hear it than we will see/hear the lost CCTV of the bars that night, or recordings of the police interrogations of the B3 at the 'safe house'.

Maybe there was, or maybe there wasn't a language barrier, but the gist is, Brits were not allowed to do any interviewing, any follow-ups, any digging-in to the types of things which investigators are trained to do. In sum: no investigating whatsoever, which is just what people involved with a cover-up want. To put another way: if you or I did something illegal, we wouldn't want experts snooping around, looking for evidence, would we?

Edited May 1, 2015 by boomerangutang

[jdinasia]

If you weren't at the meeting, you don't know what the agreement was.

Only one person has openly spoken to what was agreed that day. The other statement was from an anonymous source.

The one open and public statement agrees with standard international law and diplomatic protocol. The other was .....

[JLCrab]

If the UK investigators were allowed to search for evidence, then that would be an independent investigation. Some people go by the book because their lives exist in other than the blogosphere.

BTW UK cops 'to only observe' http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/UK-cops-to-only-observe-30245770.html

BTW2 I remember hearing on the Thai News Forum that the reason the UK PM wanted to meet with the Thai PM in Milan was for the former to inform the latter that forensic team in UK had produced evidence that would undermine the Thai Prosecutor's case against the 2 in custody.

Edited May 1, 2015 by JLCrab

[Sviss Geez]

From post above: ... many of us had hopes (in Oct/Nov '14), when hearing British investigators would be

allowed to look at (and search for) evidence -

From MURDER ... OF BRITISH NATIONALS ABROAD (2011)

Memorandum of Understanding between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and

Coroners' Society of England and Wales

3.4 The FCO cannot investigate deaths overseas.

Are you and JD hoping there will continue to be an inept investigation of the double murder/gang rape?

There have been many instances of murder investigations being at least partially investigated by people who are not nationals of the country where the murders took place. Do you want me to do the googling for that data, or would you save me some time, and do it yourselves?

Just one (of probably tens of thousands of examples): A Dutch diplomat in Bangkok had a suspicion that a Nepalese murderer had fled to Thailand, and suspected he had killed a Dutch woman in Thailand. The Dutchman did some sleuthing and found the Nepali man's address in Bkk. He informed Thai police. Thai police went to the apartment, asked to see ID. The Nepali's passport appeared to be in order, so that was the end of it for Thai cops. Later, the Nepali went on to murder a few more young farang women. The Nepali's passport was later found to be a fake.

How about you not bothering with "tens of thousands" of examples but provide just one instance were the FCO investigated a death outside the UK?

[Beng]

DNA samples to be checked, should have been done months ago, before police had chance to contaminate them or infact change them.

Anybody who believes police would not do that are very nieve.

I personally have been involved with Thai police fabricating evidence, resulting in my spending days in prison.

What did happen to you ?

[Krenjai]

Although everybody welcomes this news of independent DNA verification (including myself), I believe it is not so significant or is it..?

How on earth can this new verification show anything else than the EUREKA result: "it is a match"?

The samples that will be provided for verification will be handed over by who? Yes, by Captain Eureka who already knows the result.

It is same same as the Nomsod DNA check, the results are known upfront, why? Do you really believe they will allows this incredible loss of face to happen?

So how on earth do we know the samples they provide are the "real" original ones?

No matter the outcome, the DNA will match same same as Nomsod DNA was no match..........again results known upfront! If they can discredit the collection of the DNA plus the handling etc., there is a chance they will acquit and throw the case out based on technical issues. This is no loss of face (or minimal) and is the way out for everybody, except the parents who will never find closure because Nomsod & Mon Co. or whoever did this will not be taken to justice.

Welcome to the land of Smiles!

Edited May 1, 2015 by Krenjai

[Oziex1]

A very emotive case of course.

Will this request for independent testing help the quest for justice now, not sure?

When the General/PM praised the Police in arresting the Burmese, the case was basically closed.

If the two boys are found not guilty and are released OK, but will the real killers ever be brought to justice?

This is my opinion, please don't ask for links, evidence or if I was there.

[Krenjai]

A very emotive case of course.

Will this request for independent testing help the quest for justice now, not sure?

When the General/PM praised the Police in arresting the Burmese, the case was basically closed.

If the two boys are found not guilty and are released OK, but will the real killers ever be brought to justice?

This is my opinion, please don't ask for links, evidence or if I was there.

Will this independent testing help the quest for justice? Very unlikely IMO, the results are known upfront.

Was the case closed once the B2 got arrested! Absolutely!

Will the real killers be brought to justice? You gotta be joking! Based on what evidence? DNA?

My question, was Hannah cremated or buried? If buried and if the family allows a re-examination of her body, is it scientifically possible to extract DNA traces of the perpetrators that raped her? If that is still possible today and would be allowed that is THE ONLY WAY to get the B2 of the hook.

IMHO

[thailandchilli]

Armed with the scientific evidence, Superintendent Steve Wilkins and Detective Inspector Steve Hughson will travel to Bangkok tomorrow to meet with the Royal Thai Police detectives who drafted them in last year in a bid to track down the killer.

Senior police sources told The Mail on Sunday that forensic scientists in Wales carried out DNA tests on evidence taken from Kirsty’s room in the Aree guest house in Chiang Mai, northern Thailand, where she was found dead in August 2000.

The above is just one report on this case taken from the SamuiTimes, this has been widely reported in the international press and is a clear example of the UK police investigating in Thailand, more indepth reports on the investigation carried in the AD website also. Here's another one from the BBC

"Dyfed-Powys Police became involved after heavy criticism of the Thai force, which the the Brecon MP Richard Livsey - who called for the intervention - branded "unprofessional." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1745667.stm

At the end of the day of course the UK police have carried out investigations outside of the UK, how naive to think they haven't. Just because of policies stating they cannot does not mean in reality they cannot. Policies and laws under special circumstances can be flexible provided the foreign country also agrees.

But this is way off topic. This is about the very positive step to have the DNA reviewed, tested by Dr Prontip who we all know will not mince her words. Andy Hall is very pleased with the result and so am I. It gives hope for a fair trial and as long as that happens then that is all we can ask.

[jdinasia]

Pornthip won't mince words? Didn't she support the use of the GT200 bomb detector?

http://asiancorrespondent.com/28439/thailands-chief-forensic-scientist-a-gt200-defender/

Haven't people defending her said she only did so on orders?

Note --- your quoted articles use anonymous sources regarding the role of the UK police,

Edited May 1, 2015 by jdinasia

[JLCrab]

From the above: ... provided the foreign country also agrees. If the UK FCO or any other nation's investigators are invited to participate, well of course but that is at the discretion of the hosting country.

Edited May 1, 2015 by JLCrab

[thailandchilli]

Pornthip won't mince words? Didn't she support the use of the GT200 bomb detector?

http://asiancorrespondent.com/28439/thailands-chief-forensic-scientist-a-gt200-defender/

Haven't people defending her said she only did so on orders?

Note --- your quoted articles use anonymous sources regarding the role of the UK police,

Mmmm so we're down to making criticisms of articles in the BBC and a host of other news agencies that reported on that case because what.............in your view they are using anonymous sources No comment

Yes apparently she did support the use of the GT200, how many times have you mentioned that before? Obviously respected under the Thai leadership to now be head of forensics, so where does that leave us?

[jdinasia]

Yes, criticism of uncited sources is legit. What we do have to go on is what people, including the FCO has said.

Aren't people saying that the "Thai leadership" have declared the results already? (note -I am not one of those people) How does her history regarding the forensic value of the GT200 suggest she is still credible?