Inhumane Visa Laws

[The Captive]

Some people raised shields against the new VISA fees and new immigration laws. Some others claim that a four-fold increase after 17 years is legitimate. Well, I think Thai immigration laws are simply inhumane. Luckily I do have enough money (barely) to qualify for an O visa (Thai wife), but let's talk about principles. I have to pay 1900BHT(*) per year to stay here and 1000 BHT, every time I go abroad (i.e. re-entry permit). I have to have 200,000 BHT in my account (soon to be 400,000 BHT). Well, not all farangs are rich and this is more money that a great many Thais earn in a decade (which is a scandal in itself). Let's translate this in other terms: you have a Thai wife, Thai children, but, alas, you are poor. Well, according to Thai laws your family should be split: your wife and children stay here, you must get out of this "wonderful" country!

I just got my wife a Schengen VISA to go back to my home country. "How much do I owe you?" I ask the officer at the Embassy. "Nothing; as your spouse, she is entitled to a courtesy VISA" (**). Now, if you ask people in the world where they would prefer to go, between, say, France and Thailand, what answer do you expect? But here, I have to pay so much to stay, as if this country was El Dorado.

The problem with Thailand is that they don't know what human rights are. Their jurisprudence is simply primitive.

I would be looking forward to an improvement in the situation, but the trend is clearly negative. Can anyone see a glimpse of light?

Notes:

(*) The actual fee should be increased by at least 200 BHT; that's what my bank asked me to prepare that silly letter about my assets. By the way, I had already prepared one 2 weeks before going to Immigration. Well, that's too old, it has to be less than 7 days old! (pity they didn't specify this detail in the nice 'shopping list' they gave me when I enquired!). Do they have any idea of how long it takes to empty an account? I was tempted to do it just for the fun of being there with a piece of paper that says I have 200k BHT in a Thai account, while I had moved it out of the country!

By the way, I had my bank book, updated with a transaction on that very day, which showed the balance. Simply not good enough.

(**) They even took themselves the photocopies of the passport and marriage certificate, without blinking. Which reminds me of another suggestion to the Thai bureaucracy: at the office of foreign affairs, they certify true copies, but they ask you to provide the photocopy. Has anybody there ever realized that someone could make little modifications to the photocopy? are they going to check them character by character? wouldn't it be much faster and safer (for them) to make the photocopies themselves? [but maybe it takes a brain to realize these things].

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Some people raised shields against the new VISA fees and new immigration laws. Some others claim that a four-fold increase after 17 years is legitimate. Well, I think Thai immigration laws are simply inhumane. Luckily I do have enough money (barely) to qualify for an O visa (Thai wife), but let's talk about principles. I have to pay 1900BHT(*) per year to stay here and 1000 BHT, every time I go abroad (i.e. re-entry permit). I have to have 200,000 BHT in my account (soon to be 400,000 BHT). Well, not all farangs are rich and this is more money that a great many Thais earn in a decade (which is a scandal in itself). Let's translate this in other terms: you have a Thai wife, Thai children, but, alas, you are poor. Well, according to Thai laws your family should be split: your wife and children stay here, you must get out of this "wonderful" country!

I just got my wife a Schengen VISA to go back to my home country. "How much do I owe you?" I ask the officer at the Embassy. "Nothing; as your spouse, she is entitled to a courtesy VISA" (**). Now, if you ask people in the world where they would prefer to go, between, say, France and Thailand, what answer do you expect? But here, I have to pay so much to stay, as if this country was El Dorado.

The problem with Thailand is that they don't know what human rights are. Their jurisprudence is simply primitive.

I would be looking forward to an improvement in the situation, but the trend is clearly negative. Can anyone see a glimpse of light?

Notes:

(*) The actual fee should be increased by at least 200 BHT; that's what my bank asked me to prepare that silly letter about my assets. By the way, I had already prepared one 2 weeks before going to Immigration. Well, that's too old, it has to be less than 7 days old! (pity they didn't specify this detail in the nice 'shopping list' they gave me when I enquired!). Do they have any idea of how long it takes to empty an account? I was tempted to do it just for the fun of being there with a piece of paper that says I have 200k BHT in a Thai account, while I had moved it out of the country!

By the way, I had my bank book, updated with a transaction on that very day, which showed the balance. Simply not good enough.

(**) They even took themselves the photocopies of the passport and marriage certificate, without blinking. Which reminds me of another suggestion to the Thai bureaucracy: at the office of foreign affairs, they certify true copies, but they ask you to provide the photocopy. Has anybody there ever realized that someone could make little modifications to the photocopy? are they going to check them character by character? wouldn't it be much faster and safer (for them) to make the photocopies themselves? [but maybe it takes a brain to realize these things].

Immigration and the Government are reacting to the number of impoverished foreigners residing in Thailand. To take care of a family without employment, I personally wonder whether 200 K is anything like enough ( it equates to around $US 5,250 ... not a lot if problems arise )

[unbiasbob]

You are pretty cheap I'd say. 1900 baht for a year and 200k in a bank? that's nothing. gimme a break

[The Captive]

Immigration and the Government are reacting to the number of impoverished foreigners residing in Thailand. To take care of a family without employment, I personally wonder whether 200 K is anything like enough ( it equates to around $US 5,250 ... not a lot if problems arise )

Sounds like a reply for the sake of it. And it sounds like you don't understand the word PRINCIPLE.

Anyway, 200k/year means 17k/month. How many Thais with family earn this much? Many, but probably a minority. Then all these families should be broken apart and the husbands sent away. I'm not Thai but I have the right to live with my family, or does anyone (outside Immigration) question that?

And when it will be raised to 33k/month? how many Thais, even in the Immigration Bureau, earn this much?

What about all the very precise issues I have raised?

  You are pretty cheap I'd say. 1900 baht for a year and 200k in a bank? that's nothing. gimme a break

Same as before: fundamental principles and values is what should inspire legislation.

[p_brownstone]

With an attitude like this it is apparent that "The Captive" is going to have a REALLY miserable time in Thailand when he encounters all the other problems and frustrations!

I honestly suggest you re-consider your decision to live in Thailand, you will get absolutely nowhere by complaining and whining every time you feel your Farang "principles" have been violated by Thai regulations ......... or officials.

[pnustedt]

I'm not Thai but I have the right to live with my family, or does anyone (outside Immigration) question that?

If you're not Thai you do not have any rights in Thailand except those bestowed upon you by the Thai authorities. Better get used to it or get out.

[ELVIS]

I'm a Belgian,year after year forein people, with no money ,could enter Belgium.

They dont have pasports,or they burn them on arrival.

They are given food,money,a house.....

The majority doesn't want to work,just see it as a life long hollyday.

After a while,they want a TV,motercycle,car,......

So they steel arround untill they are satisfied....(99% of our jails is taken by them)

They still have not enough ,so they hang arround the streets day and night,so us

goodharted stay home affraid.

Now ,it's too late ,they are too manny to send back.

Politicians are affraid to be seen as "rassist",so they even gone give them the

right to vote !

So,it's only a matter of time ,(they already have political party's) ,and they will

overtake the country on leagle bases !

Now i come to stay in Thailand,i have to prove i have enough monney,here i have

to obbay to laws verry stricktly..............good,good !!!

If proves me they are a lot smarter than the belgium politicians !!

They say:if u dont have enough monney to live comfortly in Thailand,stay away !

I agree completely !

So ,if u dont have that monney,take ur thai-lady and kids,to Belgium !!!!

It's free overthere! And if u dont get what u want:call them "rasists"and u'llget it !!

[roberteales]

Elvis, believe me that the UK sounds exactly like Belgium! The British government doesn't want to be seen as being 'racist' either and so it continues to open its doors to these people who have no intention of working and do nothing but complain. Recently, the government cut down on the amount of money it was giving to these 'asylum seekers' and started to give them food coupons instead. So what did these poor immigrants do afterwards? Complain, (because they could no longer buy their alcohol and cigarettes).

The Captive, you have my honest sympathy because I am in exactly the same situation as you. I have a wife and baby here and it pisses me off also that the average Thai doesn't make nearly enough that we are expected to make, and simply because we are foreigners we must make more than them. I have never heard of this silly law anywhere else other than Thailand. After July, I believe (and hope) that Thailand will have lots of international criticism after the amount of families that are broken up by their stupid laws.

And I also side with you on unbiasbob (and lots of other members of this site) sending in replies for the sake of it. It really is pathetic the amount of farangs who get a kick out of belittling people who send in fair comments. I actually have a suggestion to make to the webmaster, or whoever is in control of this site. Usually on chat channels and forums on the Net, a member can opt to ignore, or not receive any replies to posts from someone who he or she selects. Why don't we implement something on this site, to basically filter out all off the crap that comes through?

Rob

[adjan jb]

I'm a Belgian,year after year forein people, with no money ,could enter Belgium.

They dont have pasports,or they burn them on arrival.

They are given food,money,a house.....

The majority doesn't want to work,just see it as a life long hollyday.

After a while,they want a TV,motercycle,car,......

So they steel arround untill they are satisfied....(99% of our jails is taken by them)

99 % ?!?!

PLAIN LIE.

[taxexile]

I'm a Belgian,year after year forein people, with no money ,could enter Belgium.

They dont have pasports,or they burn them on arrival.

They are given food,money,a house.....

The majority doesn't want to work,just see it as a life long hollyday.

After a while,they want a TV,motercycle,car,......

So they steel arround untill they are satisfied....(99% of our jails is taken by them)

They still have not enough ,so they hang arround the streets day and night,so us

goodharted stay home affraid.

Now ,it's too late ,they are too manny to send back.

Politicians are affraid to be seen as "rassist",so they even gone give them the

right to vote !

So,it's only a matter of time ,(they already have political party's) ,and they will

overtake the country on leagle bases !

Now i come to stay in Thailand,i have to prove i have enough monney,here i have

to obbay to laws verry stricktly..............good,good !!!

If proves me they are a lot smarter than the belgium politicians !!

They say:if u dont have enough monney to live comfortly in Thailand,stay away !

I agree completely !

So ,if u dont have that monney,take ur thai-lady and kids,to Belgium !!!!

It's free overthere! And if u dont get what u want:call them "rasists"and u'llget it !!

absolutely right elvis !!

we have the same situation in the uk, people entering the country on false pretences in order to claim benefit and free health care.

i believe that if somebody wants to move to live in another country then they should be able to fulfil the prescribed financial requirements. the visa requirements are not outrageous here, two or three months work in europe should be able to fill the wallet sufficiently enough to fulfil those requirements for a year or so.

trouble is though, a number of falangs here are illegally claiming european benefit, getting the money sent over and living over here, european benefits are generous enough to enable someone who is careful to live frugally here. now that the visa costs and other requirements have been increased some of these people are finding it difficult to meet the requirements.

excuse me whilst i have a weep for them.

perhaps they should return home and do some work. they have lived on the fruits of other peoples hard work for long enough.

thailand is right to have strict immigration laws.

[ELVIS]

99 % ?!?!

PLAIN LIE. ????

Well ,since u know about it ?

maybe ur the missing %

A gast in a country,is like a gast in ur home.

So if that gast doesn't agree the house rules(and even start steeling),

u will kick him out aswell !!!!

[meadish_sweetball]

I am surely in the minority here, and I suppose most of you don't agree with my thoughts on this, but, I can't stay out of it.

ELVIS: please present the statistics that say 99% of Belgian prisons are full of people of foreign nationality. It is an exaggeration, and you should be man enough to admit it is.

The obvious difference between Thai and EU immigration laws is because of a number of things.

as The Captive says, the principles underlying legislation work.

Thailand is not a country which builds on the same traditions as Europe, and to try to tell them how legislation should be created is surely just counterproductive.

There is no clear underlying philosophy here - Thai people are interested in finding a practical solution to the problems and issues that arise. In the West, the development of the Human Rights doctrine has come to clash with today's global reality: the "Haves" and "Have nots". The same forces that make people flock to Europe, also makes Europeans flock to countries like Thailand.

FACT: Thailand can not support its own people yet - how can you expect them to welcome poor people from other countries to come and live here?

The situation in Europe is vastly different. While the general welfare is deteriorating, most western European countries still have a comparably high standard of living.

Also, generally, people new to a country are less likely than natives to obey the rules/laws - simply because they do not understand or do not care about the basis for the rules. Among expats in Thailand as a rule, I can't say I have encountered the highest moral standards...

ELVIS, again: If European countries had not profited for so long on the resources of the rest of the world, we would probably not have a situation as grave as this.

There are several groups and ethnicities looking for opportunities in Europe, honest and dishonest alike, just like people coming into Thailand. To put them all in the same basket and place a label on them is as smart as saying

"the Greeks are good at football, therefore let's recruit some Norwegians to our team."

[Mig15]

The Thai people are in a dilemma. They want us and our money and they don’t want us because they think that we are somehow exploiting them. Ordinary Thai people do want foreigners here – I really believe this is true. Many Thais have fallen for the skillful manipulation of what happened in 1997 – that foreigners caused the crash and so hurt them financially. They forget tourism is the biggest foreign currency earner and some of them forget why we come here – because the Thai people are friendly and nice. If the government changes that tourists will stop coming. Try not to be too depressed by the present government they are not the real Thailand. The real Thailand is that woman and those kids you have.

[Up2U]

..........Let's translate this in other terms: you have a Thai wife, Thai children, but, alas, you are poor. Well, according to Thai laws your family should be split: your wife and children stay here, you must get out of this "wonderful" country!

I just got my wife a Schengen VISA to go back to my home country. "How much do I owe you?" I ask the officer at the Embassy. "Nothing; as your spouse, she is entitled to a courtesy VISA" (**). Now, if you ask people in the world where they would prefer to go, between, say, France and Thailand, what answer do you expect?

This is the simplest question I've ever had to answer :

THAILAND !!

[The Captive]

I am glad I have started this thread. Of course we had some rubbish replies, but also some very intelligent comments. I am very grateful to people who showed sympathy and understanding.

Back to the issues. Some of the comments seem to suggest that I belong to the category of people who want to get through a pleasurable life without any effort or without working. That's not the case, as I worked very hard all the way long, and I get depressed if I don't have anything constructive to do (and that's one problem with Thailand: it's so hot I can't be as active as I wish).

I know that a lot of perpetrators in Europe are poor immigrants, but I agree with meadish_sweetball: various forms of colonialism (still lasting today) have engendered this situation. Now we have to pay the price. Incidentally: if our grandfathers (and today's rulers) had had higher principles than "the money", colonialism maybe would not have taken place, and the world would be better (sorry for this corny ending).

Since I've seen that some people here think, I'll tell them a bit more of the true story.

The truth is that I have not chosen to live here! I wish I could go back to Europe, because for many reasons I don't fit here. But the Thai government do not let me. I am Captive, but I have committed no crime. My wife came over to Europe to study with a studentship from the Thai government. Now she has to work for a decade here or pay back THREE times the amount they gave her. This is quite common, and I know several farangs in exactly my same situation. What is our only fault? to have fallen in love with a Thai woman who had signed a contract with the Thai government(*). Of course at the time they left our wives were happy at the idea of coming back and serving their country. But there, they met a different culture: some Thais hate it and hurry back, others like it and wish to stay over. Some marry a local and wish to put down roots there. Now, I am not of the ungrateful kind. I would say it is fair to give back what you have received, with reasonable interests. But THREE times as much? By the way, I am told that if you opt to pay back during several years, you have to pay an ADDITIONAL interest of approximately 15% per year(**).

Now, I'll probably be able to get myself another job here, and I'll survive. But you know by now that I am a man of principles. So follow me in this: you are a German waiter working in Munich. A charming Thai woman (you know what I am talking about) comes in one day, and the following, and so on. Well, in a couple of years a relationship builds up and you get married. At the end of her studies she has to go back, so you follow her. You find out that you don't have a right to stay here unless you earn (comparatively) a lot of money. Can a waiter who speaks only German earn 33k/month?

This is what I am really talking about when I dub Thai laws as inhumane. The German waiter is not allowed to stay, the Thai woman is not allowed to leave.

If anyone knows a (legal) way out of this, please let us know, it would benefit not only me but many other farangs like me (not the Thai government, who would lose our brains and our wives').

I apologize for being so lengthy and for using formal language inappropriately.

Notes:

(*) Besides, of course, to have the misconception that the our fundamental principles regarding Human Rights applied to Thailand. meadish_sweetball, you are right on that, I wish I had known it before. But then again, would that have been enough to stop me from marrying my wife?

(**) Considering that three people with enough assets have to countersign your contract when you leave Thailand to study abroad, it doesn't even sound like a high risk investment (which would give reason for a high interest rate).

I recently heard that, to fight the growing impoverishment of Thai people, often due to loan sharks, the Government has promoted a campaign to shift these debts to institutional forms (banks and the alike) where fair interest rates can be obtained. Do you get the irony of it all?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I am glad I have started this thread. Of course we had some rubbish replies, but also some very intelligent comments. I am very grateful to people who showed sympathy and understanding.

Back to the issues. Some of the comments seem to suggest that I belong to the category of people who want to get through a pleasurable life without any effort or without working. That's not the case, as I worked very hard all the way long, and I get depressed if I don't have anything constructive to do (and that's one problem with Thailand: it's so hot I can't be as active as I wish).

I know that a lot of perpetrators in Europe are poor immigrants, but I agree with meadish_sweetball: various forms of colonialism (still lasting today) have engendered this situation. Now we have to pay the price. Incidentally: if our grandfathers (and today's rulers) had had higher principles than "the money", colonialism maybe would not have taken place, and the world would be better (sorry for this corny ending).

Since I've seen that some people here think, I'll tell them a bit more of the true story.

The truth is that I have not chosen to live here! I wish I could go back to Europe, because for many reasons I don't fit here. But the Thai government do not let me. I am Captive, but I have committed no crime. My wife came over to Europe to study with a studentship from the Thai government. Now she has to work for a decade here or pay back THREE times the amount they gave her. This is quite common, and I know several farangs in exactly my same situation. What is our only fault? to have fallen in love with a Thai woman who had signed a contract with the Thai government(*). Of course at the time they left our wives were happy at the idea of coming back and serving their country. But there, they met a different culture: some Thais hate it and hurry back, others like it and wish to stay over. Some marry a local and wish to put down roots there. Now, I am not of the ungrateful kind. I would say it is fair to give back what you have received, with reasonable interests. But THREE times as much? By the way, I am told that if you opt to pay back during several years, you have to pay an ADDITIONAL interest of approximately 15% per year(**).

Now, I'll probably be able to get myself another job here, and I'll survive. But you know by now that I am a man of principles. So follow me in this: you are a German waiter working in Munich. A charming Thai woman (you know what I am talking about) comes in one day, and the following, and so on. Well, in a couple of years a relationship builds up and you get married. At the end of her studies she has to go back, so you follow her. You find out that you don't have a right to stay here unless you earn (comparatively) a lot of money. Can a waiter who speaks only German earn 33k/month?

This is what I am really talking about when I dub Thai laws as inhumane. The German waiter is not allowed to stay, the Thai woman is not allowed to leave.

If anyone knows a (legal) way out of this, please let us know, it would benefit not only me but many other farangs like me (not the Thai government, who would lose our brains and our wives').

I apologize for being so lengthy and for using formal language inappropriately.

Notes:

(*) Besides, of course, to have the misconception that the our fundamental principles regarding Human Rights applied to Thailand. meadish_sweetball, you are right on that, I wish I had known it before. But then again, would that have been enough to stop me from marrying my wife?

(**) Considering that three people with enough assets have to countersign your contract when you leave Thailand to study abroad, it doesn't even sound like a high risk investment (which would give reason for a high interest rate).

I recently heard that, to fight the growing impoverishment of Thai people, often due to loan sharks, the Government has promoted a campaign to shift these debts to institutional forms (banks and the alike) where fair interest rates can be obtained. Do you get the irony of it all?

I see that you like those here that agree with you. Surely you knew of your wife's contractual obligations prior to marriage. You'll doubtless find life here hardgoing. With your level of understanding, going home might be the way to go. Or pay out her fiscal obligations to the Government ( which help she grabbed with two hands }

[Felt 35]

Great perspective on the human rights, which is not here, "Captive and Meadish Sweetball".

Visa laws. Have problem with take this law enforcement people serious. Not many years ago Immigration almost had their own business on the roof cafe on a shopping centre in Phuket.

The same people tell you to follow the law!!!

They could at least clean up their own floor first!

[possom]

this is a never ending subject !!!! ( and problem for some of us ) but whinging about the thai rules will change nothing . this is THEIR !!!!! country and thats ALL!! there is to it !!! i dont like it any more than others but its a FACT !!!!. have noticed in posts elsewhere on this site STUPID claims that they need us !!!!!! what a load of <deleted> !!!!!!! if you think you make a difference to the thai economy as an individual with an income of 200,000 baht a year ,you ARE A ****WIT !!!! that said i am in a similar situation to many here and understand , but slagging thailand off will solve nothing . i know my income makes no difference and dont need to be told by wealthy expats who live in a DIFFERENT thailand to me !! lets try to help each other around the rules not just WHINGE and SIT IN OUR IVORY TOWERS !!!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

this is a never ending subject !!!! ( and problem for some of us ) but whinging about the thai rules will change nothing . this is THEIR !!!!! country and thats ALL!! there is to it !!! i dont like it any more than others but its a FACT !!!!. have noticed in posts elsewhere on this site STUPID claims that they need us !!!!!! what a load of <deleted> !!!!!!! if you think you make a difference to the thai economy as an individual with an income of 200,000 baht a year ,you ARE A ****WIT !!!! that said i am in a similar situation to many here and understand , but slagging thailand off will solve nothing . i know my income makes no difference and dont need to be told by wealthy expats who live in a DIFFERENT thailand to me !! lets try to help each other around the rules not just WHINGE and SIT IN OUR IVORY TOWERS !!!

Well put Possom ( or is it possum ? }

[possom]

its possom , not possum !! long story ,but most of us here probably have long interesting stories !!!!!!!!!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

its possom , not possum !! long story ,but most of us here probably have long interesting stories !!!!!!!!!

Keep on promoting it then. It might, in the fullness of time, make it as an inclusion in a dictionary somewhere, sometime. I have some reservations in this regard however.