Second aviation safety ruling on Thailand is due mid this month

[Nuddy]

" The International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) in June this year has already red flagged Thailand for its failure to meet its standard particularly a shortage of aviation personnel."

​I seem to remember a few months ago a number of Thai pilots complaining that foreigners were coming in and stealing jobs reserved for Thais. One can only conclude that Thailand clearly has great need of skilled foreign workers in the aviation industry and that the ring-fencing of skilled jobs for Thais only is detrimental to the transfer of skills and knowledge within industries and also the wider economy.

Given that protectionism, whilst domestically popular, might be to in part to blame for this crisis perhaps a review of their employment regs is required to be more flexible with the dynamics of the 21st Century

No its not the Airlines it it Thailand Government air officials.

Not the pilots

[Nuddy]

I believe Thai airways will never recover now, its been in trouble for years, so the next downgrade will signal its end.

No its not the airline carrier Thai Air, its the Thailand Government officials who are to blame

[Nuddy]

I just wanted to point out that it was the Thai Civil Aviation Authority that was downgraded...not any individual airline. As I worked my whole life in aircraft maintenance I recall many times the "Fed's" showed up on the ramp and wanted the documentation on my activities. I can only imagine how it works here...but like everything else here I already answered my own question.

A Category 2 International Aviation Safety Assessment (IASA) rating means that the country either lacks laws or regulations necessary to oversee air carriers in accordance with minimum international standards, or its civil aviation authority - a body equivalent to the FAA for aviation safety matters - is deficient in one or more areas, such as technical expertise, trained personnel, record-keeping, or inspection procedures.

Thank you - your point helps clear some of the fog generated by the media reports.

OK so THAI have not been particularly censored - this applies to all the Thai Airlines - including THAI.

As a result of this article my wife, quite rightly told our Travel Agent not to proceed with our December booking - which is due to be paid tomorrow - for three of us in Business Class.

All of us love to fly Thai airlines, as my wife says, "It's almost like being on holiday before you leave the ground."

But this downgrade also proclaims THAI is not as SAFE as Internationally agreed standards say it should be - and that means booking with THAI is irresponsible - until it gets its act together and regains certification.

Plus the fact, we will save nearly 2,300 euro flying with say SWISS or Lufthansa - dull, boring, but cheaper and SAFE.

But Thai Air have not changed!

You would be silly to cancel your holiday because of this downgrade.

Thai Air is the same as it was last week.

Your actions show you did not interpret the news correctly.

The Thailand Air Officials are at fault not individual carriers.

[tigermonkey]

I am truly sorry that most here do not understand what is happening. The ruling has to do with the CAA of Thailand and has nothing to do with THAI or any other airlines based in THailand. The CAA ( Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand ) is responsible for all of the regulation and inspection of all commercial aviation activities in Thailand - this includes airlines, licencing, aircraft, operations manuals, airports, routing and air traffic control and safety. All of these things need to be brought up to world standards. Right now it is pure chaos and nothing is being done.

BTW It is not the second aviation safety ruling .which is due in December. ICAO has already red flagged them. Then FAA dropped them to Category 2. EASA is number three.

[Hawk]

I believe Thai airways will never recover now, its been in trouble for years, so the next downgrade will signal its end.

No its not the airline carrier Thai Air, its the Thailand Government officials who are to blame

Yes but Thai air is a state enterprise.

[Nuddy]

By crikey, I wonder if players on here just want to dash down Thai Air. Its not their fault. They are the same as they were last week before the ruling.

Its the Thailand Air Officials....not individual carriers fault.

@tigermonkey ....good on you mate ...you understand it.

Some dick on here wants to cancel his holiday because of it.

It is so easy to understand, why don't these barstool donkeys get it?

[tigermonkey]

I believe Thai airways will never recover now, its been in trouble for years, so the next downgrade will signal its end.

No its not the airline carrier Thai Air, its the Thailand Government officials who are to blame

Yes but Thai air is a state enterprise.

Yes THAI is a state enterprise ( actually only 50%) and so is AOT which owns/operates all the international airports in Thailand. It is very much a conflict of interest that the CAA which is responsible for regulating and inspecting both airlines & airports is a government department. If the CAA were doing an exceptional job, one might forgive this apparent conflict, but the CAA completely vacated any position of responsibility years ago.

[stoffel45]

I just wanted to point out that it was the Thai Civil Aviation Authority that was downgraded...not any individual airline. As I worked my whole life in aircraft maintenance I recall many times the "Fed's" showed up on the ramp and wanted the documentation on my activities. I can only imagine how it works here...but like everything else here I already answered my own question.

A Category 2 International Aviation Safety Assessment (IASA) rating means that the country either lacks laws or regulations necessary to oversee air carriers in accordance with minimum international standards, or its civil aviation authority - a body equivalent to the FAA for aviation safety matters - is deficient in one or more areas, such as technical expertise, trained personnel, record-keeping, or inspection procedures.

Thank you - your point helps clear some of the fog generated by the media reports.

OK so THAI have not been particularly censored - this applies to all the Thai Airlines - including THAI.

As a result of this article my wife, quite rightly told our Travel Agent not to proceed with our December booking - which is due to be paid tomorrow - for three of us in Business Class.

All of us love to fly Thai airlines, as my wife says, "It's almost like being on holiday before you leave the ground."

But this downgrade also proclaims THAI is not as SAFE as Internationally agreed standards say it should be - and that means booking with THAI is irresponsible - until it gets its act together and regains certification.

Plus the fact, we will save nearly 2,300 euro flying with say SWISS or Lufthansa - dull, boring, but cheaper and SAFE.

Both Thai Int and Bangkok Air are compliant with a top mark of 7 for their aircraft audit it is their administration that are failing the tests along with the administrating of Thailand's aircraft carriers the DCA.

I am sure they are compliant - if they says so - well - they must be.

When a maintenance check is done - the results are recorded in triplicate. One of those copies must be ready on instant request from a visiting officer. If it is not......then it is assumed that the maintenance was either not done or not done as necessary.

Unfortunately for THAI and Bangkok Air - this family's favourite airlines - if there is NO paper trail - and an incredible arrogance which ignores it - we are left with a petulant "Well of course we do all the safety checks but just not writing it all down doesn't mean they were not done."

This is an old problem for THAI and Thailand.

They have lost the American rating and next month they will lose the EU's .

Their response? 'Mai pen rai - only one third of revenue is from and to Europe.'

It is time to totally clean out THAI.

Every single Board member has contributed to this dereliction of duty. Every record keeper has contributed to the International downgrading of their national Airline.

Get rid of the lot of them.

[stoffel45]

By crikey, I wonder if players on here just want to dash down Thai Air. Its not their fault. They are the same as they were last week before the ruling.

Its the Thailand Air Officials....not individual carriers fault.

@tigermonkey ....good on you mate ...you understand it.

Some dick on here wants to cancel his holiday because of it.

It is so easy to understand, why don't these barstool donkeys get it?

Hey Nuddy do you even know how the certification system works? It has been around for a LONG time. It's PRIMARY function is to ensure passengers and crew and the folks on the ground are SAFE.

This "dick" as you put it didn't cancel his holiday - he and his family choose NOT to fly on a Thai airline because they did NOT do the paperwork they are committed to to run an airline and so neither the CAA nor the FAA can be certain that they are SAFE.

We Do No want to "do down" THAI or any other Thai airline.

We CHOSE to fly THAI - (DESPITE its incredibly poor ticket value and on board amenity.)

But we will not fly with an airline which cannot demonstrate to either its own (very lax) CAA nor to the FAA that it really IS safe to fly.

[tigermonkey]

By crikey, I wonder if players on here just want to dash down Thai Air. Its not their fault. They are the same as they were last week before the ruling.

Its the Thailand Air Officials....not individual carriers fault.

@tigermonkey ....good on you mate ...you understand it.

Some dick on here wants to cancel his holiday because of it.

It is so easy to understand, why don't these barstool donkeys get it?

Hey Nuddy do you even know how the certification system works? It has been around for a LONG time. It's PRIMARY function is to ensure passengers and crew and the folks on the ground are SAFE.

This "dick" as you put it didn't cancel his holiday - he and his family choose NOT to fly on a Thai airline because they did NOT do the paperwork they are committed to to run an airline and so neither the CAA nor the FAA can be certain that they are SAFE.

We Do No want to "do down" THAI or any other Thai airline.

We CHOSE to fly THAI - (DESPITE its incredibly poor ticket value and on board amenity.)

But we will not fly with an airline which cannot demonstrate to either its own (very lax) CAA nor to the FAA that it really IS safe to fly.

I am quite confused by what you mean by "the certification system" - perhaps you could explain if you are talking about airlines, flight crews, airframes, maintenance procedures and staff, scheduling/rostering, airports, air traffic control, or many others. The Thai CAA is negligent in all of these areas, and that is why the CAA has been lowered to Category 2. All of these areas are the responsibility pf the CAA. along with inspections of foreign aircraft which land in Thailand. How could they possibly do the job ? They have only 18 field inspectors to do all of those jobs, but they have more than 500 support staff back at the office.

How can THAI do the paperwork and hand it in. CAA is supposed to supply the paperwork and process it -- it's not happening.

Is THAI safe ? - who knows - their record is good, but they have no certification from CAA.

Is THAI efficient and profitable ? - Absolutely not

Can THAI fly to the USA ? - no because the CAA is incapable of certifying them. So FAA says no uncertified ( unsafe?) aircraft in the USA

ICAO has already red flagged the CAA in the summer . Next week EASA will probably lower the CAA rating. After that Japan and many others will follow..

Edited December 3, 2015 by tigermonkey

[Roota]

Is THAI safe ? - who knows - their record is good, but they have no certification from CAA.

Is THAI efficient and profitable ? - Absolutely not

Can THAI fly to the USA ? - no because the CAA is incapable of certifying them. So FAA says no uncertified ( unsafe?) aircraft in the USA

Good summary. Not that it will have the slightest effect on those here who have decided that THAI must be unsafe because, well, it's Thai.

JACDEC rankings have strong credibility in the industry, and they would certainly indicate that THAI is very safe. In any case, to repeat what you said, as some people here seem incapable of understanding it: this is not a downgrade of any airline in Thailand, only of the oversight mechanism. The crap airlines here are still crap, the good ones are still good.

[Roota]

Sorry, double post.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Roota

[nong38]

Well

Today on a nice sunny take off NOK AIR fogget to check tire pressure and 1 was dead flat

Theres the final nail in the coffin

These Thais do not change engine oil in scooters or even look at KMs travelled and we trust them to fly

Well personally I would bus it

But bus crashes are a fairly regular occurence as well, is there a theme here?

Last time I took a coach from Chiang Mai, I was shown to my seat and I soon pointed out that the seat belt was not in working order, new seat same problem, after the 3rd seat the stewardess just walked away!

Safety is not a priority here and the Government should make it one, its their duty to look after their own citizens as well as visiting travellers.

Edited December 3, 2015 by nong38

[Lampang2]

I find it interesting that Thai airlines are now banned from flying to the USA until the standards are met. Will Europe also take such action. Of course Europe will have to actually ban the Thai airlines as there are many routes currently flown.

I guess Thai airways took down its last route to the US as a preventive measure.

They interpreted it as a money thing.

We back of from your market so no need to shut us down.

If so, it did not help anyway.

Or maybe not.

[Baerboxer]

I believe Thai airways will never recover now, its been in trouble for years, so the next downgrade will signal its end.

Thai Airways haven't been downgraded. The Thai CAA have.

[Baerboxer]

Well

Today on a nice sunny take off NOK AIR fogget to check tire pressure and 1 was dead flat

Theres the final nail in the coffin

These Thais do not change engine oil in scooters or even look at KMs travelled and we trust them to fly

Well personally I would bus it

But bus crashes are a fairly regular occurence as well, is there a theme here?

Last time I took a coach from Chiang Mai, I was shown to my seat and I soon pointed out that the seat belt was not in working order, new seat same problem, after the 3rd seat the stewardess just walked away!

Safety is not a priority here and the Government should make it one, its their duty to look after their own citizens as well as visiting travellers.

There is little concept of quality, managing quality, self responsibility or pride in work. Some individuals might exhibit these traits but it's not institutionalized nor part of the normal Thai culture.

So, as you rightly point out, massive training programs and procedure updates are needed. But, people in senior positions often get those positions through nepotism, cronyism and have no clue what they should be doing, or any real understanding of cause and effect. They certainly won't rock any boats.

That's why quality and service are so unpredictable here. The health and safety aspects of any product or service will be left to a particular individual who might be skilled, conscientious and responsible; or might not. And there are no systems to identify which or in many cases no interest.

It reminds me of Britain in the 60's and 70's but more pronounced.

[JAG]

I believe Thai airways will never recover now, its been in trouble for years, so the next downgrade will signal its end.

Thai Airways haven't been downgraded. The Thai CAA have.

True, but I think what he means is that if airlines from Thailand are prohibited from European airspace, then Thai will not recover.

[JAG]

Well

Today on a nice sunny take off NOK AIR fogget to check tire pressure and 1 was dead flat

Theres the final nail in the coffin

These Thais do not change engine oil in scooters or even look at KMs travelled and we trust them to fly

Well personally I would bus it

But bus crashes are a fairly regular occurence as well, is there a theme here?

Last time I took a coach from Chiang Mai, I was shown to my seat and I soon pointed out that the seat belt was not in working order, new seat same problem, after the 3rd seat the stewardess just walked away!

Safety is not a priority here and the Government should make it one, its their duty to look after their own citizens as well as visiting travellers.

There is little concept of quality, managing quality, self responsibility or pride in work. Some individuals might exhibit these traits but it's not institutionalized nor part of the normal Thai culture.

So, as you rightly point out, massive training programs and procedure updates are needed. But, people in senior positions often get those positions through nepotism, cronyism and have no clue what they should be doing, or any real understanding of cause and effect. They certainly won't rock any boats.

That's why quality and service are so unpredictable here. The health and safety aspects of any product or service will be left to a particular individual who might be skilled, conscientious and responsible; or might not. And there are no systems to identify which or in many cases no interest.

It reminds me of Britain in the 60's and 70's but more pronounced.

And without wishing to get into the whole "was Margaret Thatcher right" argument, Britain's recovery was long and painful!

[deckape]

I believe Thai airways will never recover now, its been in trouble for years, so the next downgrade will signal its end.

Thai Airways haven't been downgraded. The Thai CAA have.

If the Thai CAA are responsible for certifying Thai air carriers...yes, it is a downgrade of Thai Airways.

That is why Thai Airways can no longer start new service or change existing service to the USA. That would be no small matter for TG in Europe. TG, due to their many aircraft types, often switch aircraft type due to maintenance issues.