UK: MPs to debate calls to ban Donald Trump

[Pimay1]

Isn't this the way democracy is supposed to work? The people are unhappy with something so it gets discussed in parliament.

A few hundred thousand politically correct geeks out of a population of 70 million constitutes "the people"? I suggest that august body concern itself with more important matters and should Trump be sworn in as President, then Parliament and UK Border Control can decide if they wish to ban him from the UK's shores or not.

He'd probably vow to ban all gays too if it were to win votes.

Do you have any facts to support your statement or are you just blowing wind?

[DeepSea]

The fool is the one that ignores a petition like this one. The result does not have to be a ban, but a discussion must be held...

Christian Iraqi Women, and Yazidi girls are being tortured, sexually abused and decapitated in Iraq by 12th Century ISIS throwbacks... read this. The animals who are committing these heinous acts, are following an ideology which calls for the destruction of Western Civilization... did I miss your post on the need for a discussion to be held about this issue? No... didn't think so, puts the whole ridiculous argument about Trumps comments into better perspective dont you think..? or maybe you would if it was your mother/daughter/sister in their crosshairs.

ISIS have the ability to print their own passports, using Syrian printing equipment removed from their passport offices, providing them the ability to forge genuine documents. I believe that Trump has called for a moratorium on travel to the U.S., until they can figure out how to deal with this situation, and the utterly pourous Southern border of the U.S., NOT a permanent ban on travel.

Seems pretty logical to me, of course, when you have the luxury of distance, when youre not facing the sharp edge of a knife, or an AK47, its easy to be high handed and insist that this man is held to account for... for what exactly? For saying what all but the most politically correct, self hating apologists recognize to be common sense?

I was very alarmed by your information that ISIS members carrying Syrian printed passports is raping white women on the southern border of the US. So I did some research. Guess what? A bunch of right wing looney ignorant blog sites appeared. You think you are speaking the 'Truth'. You think Trump is speaking the 'Truth'. You are such heroes. Spreading your ill conceived, hysterical mis-information around contributes what to any discussion? We get it. You're a Trump fanboy. Lapping up everything bit of vacuous nonsense that comes out of his mouth. Bedazzled by his billionaire status.

You believe that Western civilisation is at risk from a bunch of extremists and terrorists? Fortunately there are those of us who are made of stronger stuff than you and we do not give into fear-mongering and hysteria.

I'll type this slowly, so those of you who appear to have trouble reading English, can play along too...

I understand that when liberals can't discuss facts (or dont like what they hear), they prefer to derail a conversation by ignoring the points under discussion, and shifting to another subject. Invariably they'll hurl accusations that the poster is an uncaring, homophobic, islamaphobic, hysterical, right wing nut, hell bent on sowing misinformation... but try to stay with me on planet Earth for a moment, go back and actually read what i posted... in fact try reading it twice... perhaps you can ask somebody to read it for you if its a challenge.

Where in my post did I state that ISIS members carrying Syrian passports were raping white women on the Southern border of the U.S...? You're dug that nugget out of your own fevered imagination. What i did say was that Christian Iraqi and Yazidi women are being tortured, sexually abused and murdered in Iraq by these animals... and because I knew that you and your ilk would immediately scream about right wing looney ignorant blog websites; i chose to link you to RT.com, did you bother to read the link, do you even know who they are, or did you just leap straight for the keyboard without pausing for a second to digest what was being offered to you for consideration. By no stretch of anyones imagination, could RT.com be considered Conservative.

Secondly, i didnt say that I believed Western Civilization was at risk from a bunch of extremists and terrorists did I..? What i said was that these animals are following an ideology which calls for the destruction of Western Civilization, and you dont have to take my word for it, you just have to listen to the propoganda they are vomiting out on a daily basis. Personally, i believe they can be countered and should be crushed, period. Unfortunately it will require some backbone, and policitcal will from a new generation of leaders, who are not wrapped up in political correctness, the way the current crop are (Merkel, Cameron, Obama et-al). Why dont you ask the families of people slaughtered in London, Paris and New York, if they think that its just fear mongering and hysteria.

Respectfully, you need to educate yourself Sir. Learn how to read, pause before responding, consider facts, and formulate a response which isn't rooted in the same old liberal groupthink. Then we can have a respectful, informed, mutually beneficial discussion based on the facts.

[RickBradford]

Liberals sure don't like freedom of speech

They aren't very liberal about things they don't agree with, are they? What is it about them that would be referred to as liberal since they want to control all the rest of us?

Cheers.

They gave themselves the tags of 'liberal' and 'progressive' for the same reason that there is a country named the Democratic People's Republic of Korea which is trying to disguise the fact that it is a communist dictatorship.

[stevenl]

Are there still some UK MPs left who didn't get the memo? The US is NOT, I repeat NOT, anymore under their jurisdiction!

There is a proposal of a foreign national for temporary stricter visa rules of another foreign, sovereign nation. This proposal is the reaction of a mass-shooting executed by Muslims. And "the UK" officially discusses the barring of this foreign national?

Come on guys, does Ochlocracy ring any bells? At least for some of you?

It's about time for the first small changes and Mr. Trump is just one obvious symptom of this. Sorry to spoil your moaning, but I'm sure, there are many more surprises, much bigger changes, in the pipeline for my fellow Western comrades.

... UK MPs officially discussing the barring a law abiding US citizen from entering the UK... How much more ludicrous can it get? Rhetorical question, btw.

NB: Mr. Cameron is as "conservative" as his German counterpart IM "Erika", the former youth leader of the former SED (for the uninitiated members here on TV). Still no bells ringing? Ok, then be at least prepared for a rude awakening.

To European norms mr. Cameron is conservative. We're not talking US here.

The same goes for your opening statement. Nothing to do with US jurisdiction, just the UK jurisdiction where the discussion is whether Trump should be allowed in to the UK.

[wabothai]

How pathetic ! Our Donald is the only one brave enough to say what most working people think

Please read history around the 30's, causing what?

[stevenl]

Ban the idiot and ban him from Asia as well

He is not welcome with his dumb views and myopic views on foreign affairs

why ? oh yeah ... ban him because he want's to make the world safer and because he is expressing the truth and that of many. tis .... tis ...

LawrenceChee, why not ban them if they are a serious threat to the security of the countries people ?

I for one would vote yes in a heartbeat to kill every muslim radical.

A good argument can be made that Trump and the likewise speaking people are a threat to the security of in this case the US.

[steven100]

Ban the idiot and ban him from Asia as well

He is not welcome with his dumb views and myopic views on foreign affairs

why ? oh yeah ... ban him because he want's to make the world safer and because he is expressing the truth and that of many. tis .... tis ...

LawrenceChee, why not ban them if they are a serious threat to the security of the countries people ?

I for one would vote yes in a heartbeat to kill every muslim radical.

A good argument can be made that Trump and the likewise speaking people are a threat to the security of in this case the US.

I take your point ... and it boils down to someones words speaking to the media ....

so if someone speaks out about a radical terrorist group and says lets kill them all ..... then do you ban him because of what he said ?

[i claudius]

Let him come and see how he is the butt of almost every joke going. He has always been a figure of fun here because of his bigoted remarks and general stupidity. All the media here would have a great time, he is lampooned almost on a daily basis but if he was actually here it would be much funnier. He has already been stripped of the honours bestowed on him in Scotland which were given to him for splashing his cash. So please let him come!

there is one difference , the people will cheer him .

[RabC]

Let him come and see how he is the butt of almost every joke going. He has always been a figure of fun here because of his bigoted remarks and general stupidity. All the media here would have a great time, he is lampooned almost on a daily basis but if he was actually here it would be much funnier. He has already been stripped of the honours bestowed on him in Scotland which were given to him for splashing his cash. So please let him come!

there is one difference , the people will cheer him .

I seem to remember that people cheered a certain speaker in Munich in the 30's. Hatred should not be allowed to be propagated from any side. I also seem to remember that in the 30's the USA was late to wake up to the threat, what goes around comes around. Edited January 7, 2016 by RabC

[Andreas2]

Are there still some UK MPs left who didn't get the memo? The US is NOT, I repeat NOT, anymore under their jurisdiction!

...

...

The same goes for your opening statement. Nothing to do with US jurisdiction, just the UK jurisdiction where the discussion is whether Trump should be allowed in to the UK.

Because of a statement like this? I hope, we are both talking about this:

Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration

Now, again, which part of this statement falls under UK jurisdiction?

In another post you claim: "A good argument can be made that Trump and the likewise speaking people are a threat to the security of in this case the US."

I guess, you also think that Mr. Trump could as well be a threat to the security of the UK, if he is allowed to enter... and thus falls under UK jurisdiction, right?

Anyway, where is your good argument for your claim that people like Mr. Trump are a threat to the security of the UK - or the US for that matter?

Until now I had the impression, that Mr. Trump is quite a law abiding person, in the US as well as in the UK. If I missed something, please let me know your argument(s) so I can also understand your position regarding "falls under UK jurisdiction" / "is a threat to US (and UK?) security".

[lostboy]

The fool is the one that ignores a petition like this one. The result does not have to be a ban, but a discussion must be held...

Christian Iraqi Women, and Yazidi girls are being tortured, sexually abused and decapitated in Iraq by 12th Century ISIS throwbacks... read this. The animals who are committing these heinous acts, are following an ideology which calls for the destruction of Western Civilization... did I miss your post on the need for a discussion to be held about this issue? No... didn't think so, puts the whole ridiculous argument about Trumps comments into better perspective dont you think..? or maybe you would if it was your mother/daughter/sister in their crosshairs.

ISIS have the ability to print their own passports, using Syrian printing equipment removed from their passport offices, providing them the ability to forge genuine documents. I believe that Trump has called for a moratorium on travel to the U.S., until they can figure out how to deal with this situation, and the utterly pourous Southern border of the U.S., NOT a permanent ban on travel.

Seems pretty logical to me, of course, when you have the luxury of distance, when youre not facing the sharp edge of a knife, or an AK47, its easy to be high handed and insist that this man is held to account for... for what exactly? For saying what all but the most politically correct, self hating apologists recognize to be common sense?

I was very alarmed by your information that ISIS members carrying Syrian printed passports is raping white women on the southern border of the US. So I did some research. Guess what? A bunch of right wing looney ignorant blog sites appeared. You think you are speaking the 'Truth'. You think Trump is speaking the 'Truth'. You are such heroes. Spreading your ill conceived, hysterical mis-information around contributes what to any discussion? We get it. You're a Trump fanboy. Lapping up everything bit of vacuous nonsense that comes out of his mouth. Bedazzled by his billionaire status.

You believe that Western civilisation is at risk from a bunch of extremists and terrorists? Fortunately there are those of us who are made of stronger stuff than you and we do not give into fear-mongering and hysteria.

I'll type this slowly, so those of you who appear to have trouble reading English, can play along too...

I understand that when liberals can't discuss facts (or dont like what they hear), they prefer to derail a conversation by ignoring the points under discussion, and shifting to another subject. Invariably they'll hurl accusations that the poster is an uncaring, homophobic, islamaphobic, hysterical, right wing nut, hell bent on sowing misinformation... but try to stay with me on planet Earth for a moment, go back and actually read what i posted... in fact try reading it twice... perhaps you can ask somebody to read it for you if its a challenge.

Where in my post did I state that ISIS members carrying Syrian passports were raping white women on the Southern border of the U.S...? You're dug that nugget out of your own fevered imagination. What i did say was that Christian Iraqi and Yazidi women are being tortured, sexually abused and murdered in Iraq by these animals... and because I knew that you and your ilk would immediately scream about right wing looney ignorant blog websites; i chose to link you to RT.com, did you bother to read the link, do you even know who they are, or did you just leap straight for the keyboard without pausing for a second to digest what was being offered to you for consideration. By no stretch of anyones imagination, could RT.com be considered Conservative.

Secondly, i didnt say that I believed Western Civilization was at risk from a bunch of extremists and terrorists did I..? What i said was that these animals are following an ideology which calls for the destruction of Western Civilization, and you dont have to take my word for it, you just have to listen to the propoganda they are vomiting out on a daily basis. Personally, i believe they can be countered and should be crushed, period. Unfortunately it will require some backbone, and policitcal will from a new generation of leaders, who are not wrapped up in political correctness, the way the current crop are (Merkel, Cameron, Obama et-al). Why dont you ask the families of people slaughtered in London, Paris and New York, if they think that its just fear mongering and hysteria.

Respectfully, you need to educate yourself Sir. Learn how to read, pause before responding, consider facts, and formulate a response which isn't rooted in the same old liberal groupthink. Then we can have a respectful, informed, mutually beneficial discussion based on the facts.

What, you actually want to be taken seriously? After your Rapist Syrian Passport US southern border nonsense. After bringing out all the looney right wing tropes. Politically correct self hating apologists. Reading comprehension - let me write this slowly. Liberals can't discuss facts. All that BS and you expect to be taken seriously?

You Trump fanboys will throw anything and everything into the mix to add to the noise and chaos surrounding the ideologically bankrupt bully boy who represents the old white powerless men who live in fear of bogey men. People who quite rightly are vilified for spreading their fear and hate but now have their voice in the form of Trump who to them speak their 'Truths'.

An individual UK citizen, fed up with Trump's antics stuck it to him with the help of over half a million other Brits. Good on her. And all the old white men go crazy. Endless posts on who has the right to enter countries and who does not. Endless whining about political correctness.

Your superficial analysis of the ISIS situation backed by some googled link is a sophomoric attempt to feed the hysteria that Trump exploits. Your supercilious demands to take your intellectually constrained ramblings seriously are pointless. This is after all, a thread about Donald Trump and the circus around him. The musings of a New York billionaire on international affairs and his blue collar fanboys are not the subjects of serious discussion. Whatever you think about your 'facts'.

[stevenl]

Are there still some UK MPs left who didn't get the memo? The US is NOT, I repeat NOT, anymore under their jurisdiction!

...

...

The same goes for your opening statement. Nothing to do with US jurisdiction, just the UK jurisdiction where the discussion is whether Trump should be allowed in to the UK.

Because of a statement like this? I hope, we are both talking about this:

Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration

Now, again, which part of this statement falls under UK jurisdiction?

In another post you claim: "A good argument can be made that Trump and the likewise speaking people are a threat to the security of in this case the US."

I guess, you also think that Mr. Trump could as well be a threat to the security of the UK, if he is allowed to enter... and thus falls under UK jurisdiction, right?

Anyway, where is your good argument for your claim that people like Mr. Trump are a threat to the security of the UK - or the US for that matter?

Until now I had the impression, that Mr. Trump is quite a law abiding person, in the US as well as in the UK. If I missed something, please let me know your argument(s) so I can also understand your position regarding "falls under UK jurisdiction" / "is a threat to US (and UK?) security".

Being allowed into the UK falls under UK jurisdiction. Your claims that he is only talkiing about entrance to the US is totally irrelevant.

It can easily be claimed that with his rhetoric he is enticing violence and a threat to the US security, and UK security as well when he enters. His words are even being used by extremists to underline their point and entice new recruits.

[JHolmesJr]

Frankly, he'd have to be out of his mind to want to go to the UK.

[slipperylobster]

Ban the idiot and ban him from Asia as well

He is not welcome with his dumb views and myopic views on foreign affairs

So who would you rather have?

[RabC]

I really am beginning to wonder if TV is an outlet of Red Neck News (Fox). I appreciate everyone has their views but the number of bigoted, xenophobic and racist posters on here astounds me.

[mopar71]

I appreciate everyone has their views but the number of bigoted, xenophobic and racist posters on here astounds me.

Unfortunately those bigots will always be with us, trying to ban as much as they can because they believe their own views and opinions are all that matters. We shouldn't let them get away with it because the next steps will be to punish those in the country already with jail time or worse.

[Nobb]

The problem is that the Muslims in the UK control many city block in the UK. They do not want to get them to demonstrate or riot. The UK made there own beds and now they have to live with it. I think a Trump for President would bring the country back to the glorious UK it used to be. Long live Trump!

[KC 71]

We have many peoples of different origins in the uk and we are proud of that

[stevenl]

The problem is that the Muslims in the UK control many city block in the UK. They do not want to get them to demonstrate or riot. The UK made there own beds and now they have to live with it. I think a Trump for President would bring the country back to the glorious UK it used to be. Long live Trump!

Yes, sure, Trump president of the UK.

[Andreas2]

Being allowed into the UK falls under UK jurisdiction. Your claims that he is only talkiing about entrance to the US is totally irrelevant.

It can easily be claimed that with his rhetoric he is enticing violence and a threat to the US security, and UK security as well when he enters. His words are even being used by extremists to underline their point and entice new recruits.

Thank you for your explanation, stevenl, seriously.

I share your concern, that there are still so many people, who can not handle a personal opinion or proposal like:

I'm calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on.

And then, you and I, we both must live with the constant fear, that there are people among us who are really prepared to resort to physical violence because of something like that - Maybe even against us, strangers to them. But I think, it is the wrong way to go, just to declare something as un-pc and attack this person, only to keep these violent, maybe even mislead people quiet... but for how long? There will be another event, which we both won't see coming, and then these people explode... And I'm afraid, that then, again, many people have no other explanation than to blame the victims.

Maybe you can see, that I don't defend Mr. Trump's opinions or proposals, not at all. And I have no solution, how to prevent the next terror attack... Or just any violence at all. But I would like to keep the right to say whatever I want, even if it makes me look silly, stupid, evil or whatever in the minds of some others.

Regarding the recruitment of new extremists: I think the recruiters use the same methods like many of our own msm news outlets today. They report incompletely or even plain wrongly. Maybe out of sheer incompetence or just to create sentiments to further their own agendas - whatever these are.

But the main reason, why there are so many extremists created, is our bombing of their homelands. Again, this is just my opinion, and if this makes me look stupid or evil, so be it. But I would very much appreciate to not be thrown into a prison or even killed because of it.

Isn't this something everybody should be allowed to expect from a healthy society? Individuals like you in I, not just our msm, to be allowed to say stupid, wrong things? And then maybe be corrected, convinced, educated by an interesting discussion?

At least, that's my agenda.

[RabC]

The problem is that the Muslims in the UK control many city block in the UK. They do not want to get them to demonstrate or riot. The UK made there own beds and now they have to live with it. I think a Trump for President would bring the country back to the glorious UK it used to be. Long live Trump!

Yes, this is the ultimate treason. The labour and socialist parties of Europe have made a deal with the devil in that in return for their votes, these parties have basically allowed unrestricted immigration of muslims from SE Asia and the Middle East into Europe. The results of this treason are becoming more and more apparent as time goes by...the native born of Europe should deal with these traitors in their midst forthwith.

And it's got absolutely nothing to do with you so go argue about getting the USA in order before spouting off about elsewhere. People in glass houses.......

Until the UK's muslim terrorists stop trying to come to Disneyland, it's got everything to do with every American.

I do admit it shows a total lack of judgment even wanting to visit the USA

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic, inflammatory, troll posts and replies removed.

Please stay on the topic and stop with the off-topic bickering.

[RabC]

The U.K. Is a sovereign nation and as so can decide all by itself who to deny entry to, it doesn't require any instruction or badgering from anywhere else. Personally I would prefer to see Trump admitted on the condition he takes part in a fairly moderated debate, the results would be hilarious.

[RabC]

The problem is that the Muslims in the UK control many city block in the UK. They do not want to get them to demonstrate or riot. The UK made there own beds and now they have to live with it. I think a Trump for President would bring the country back to the glorious UK it used to be. Long live Trump!

Your facts are totally wrong, to add anything useful to this thread at least get your facts right.

[stevenl]

Being allowed into the UK falls under UK jurisdiction. Your claims that he is only talkiing about entrance to the US is totally irrelevant.

It can easily be claimed that with his rhetoric he is enticing violence and a threat to the US security, and UK security as well when he enters. His words are even being used by extremists to underline their point and entice new recruits.

<snip>

And then, you and I, we both must live with the constant fear, that there are people among us who are really prepared to resort to physical violence because of something like that - Maybe even against us, strangers to them. <snip>

Sorry, I stopped reading after you telling me I have to live in constant fear. I don't.

[Ricardo]

The U.K. Is a sovereign nation and as so can decide all by itself who to deny entry to, it doesn't require any instruction or badgering from anywhere else. Personally I would prefer to see Trump admitted on the condition he takes part in a fairly moderated debate, the results would be hilarious.

Perhaps chairing 'Have I Got News For You' ?

[RabC]

The U.K. Is a sovereign nation and as so can decide all by itself who to deny entry to, it doesn't require any instruction or badgering from anywhere else. Personally I would prefer to see Trump admitted on the condition he takes part in a fairly moderated debate, the results would be hilarious.

Perhaps chairing 'Have I Got News For You' ?

It would be funny, but I think most of would go straight over his head.

[Ricardo]

"About 568,000 people have backed a petition calling on the tycoon to be barred for comments he made about banning Muslims from the US." --------------------- All those people are Muslims. I guarantee it. This is how London became brown-black (Negros) -Muslim. Have you been there lately?

​White people have multicultural knife on their throats with prosecution hanging in the air, so they are forced to be silent. To the time of a WAKE UP call.

Here are example of some twisted/strange perception of truth:

"All those people are Muslims. I guarantee it. "

Well I for one signed that petition, I'm slightly surprised that it got anywhere, but that's free-speech & democracy for you.

And I'm not Muslim, never have been ... so much for your guarantee.

The number of people who did sign it, forcing their representatives to pretend to consider it, shows that there are many Brits who are worried at even the very-distant possibility, that this particular candidate might ever get his finger near the Big Red Button !

Putin worries me, but this guy makes Boris Yeltsin look sober & reliable, by comparison.

Why can't the Republican Party come up with a better candidate than this ?

You had the sense to reject Sarah Palin, so what's gone wrong, this time ?

[Andreas2]

Being allowed into the UK falls under UK jurisdiction. Your claims that he is only talkiing about entrance to the US is totally irrelevant.

It can easily be claimed that with his rhetoric he is enticing violence and a threat to the US security, and UK security as well when he enters. His words are even being used by extremists to underline their point and entice new recruits.

<snip>

And then, you and I, we both must live with the constant fear, that there are people among us who are really prepared to resort to physical violence because of something like that - Maybe even against us, strangers to them. <snip>

Sorry, I stopped reading after you telling me I have to live in constant fear. I don't.

Uh, I didn't see that one coming...

It was definitively not me, who brought up the issue of a threat to national(!) security in connection with the visit of a law-abiding(!) foreign national. Furthermore it was you who brought up the danger of an outbreak of (physical) violence and it was you again who mentioned the recruitment of new extremists (who, and now I'm guessing, you also regard as dangerous) in your argumentation.

Sorry, if I offended you. As you surely have already noticed, I'm not an English speaking person and thus have my limitations in expressing myself eloquently.

I believe you, that you see possible, hidden dangers, even for the existence of your nation, in connection with a possible visit of Mr. Trump to the UK, but you are definitively not afraid of them.

I got it. Sorry again, if I gave you the impression that I think you are a fearful person; It was not at all my intention as I was honestly interested in your feedback.

[stevenl]

Being allowed into the UK falls under UK jurisdiction. Your claims that he is only talkiing about entrance to the US is totally irrelevant.

It can easily be claimed that with his rhetoric he is enticing violence and a threat to the US security, and UK security as well when he enters. His words are even being used by extremists to underline their point and entice new recruits.

<snip>

And then, you and I, we both must live with the constant fear, that there are people among us who are really prepared to resort to physical violence because of something like that - Maybe even against us, strangers to them. <snip>

Sorry, I stopped reading after you telling me I have to live in constant fear. I don't.

Uh, I didn't see that one coming...

It was definitively not me, who brought up the issue of a threat to national(!) security in connection with the visit of a law-abiding(!) foreign national. Furthermore it was you who brought up the danger of an outbreak of (physical) violence and it was you again who mentioned the recruitment of new extremists (who, and now I'm guessing, you also regard as dangerous) in your argumentation.

Sorry, if I offended you. As you surely have already noticed, I'm not an English speaking person and thus have my limitations in expressing myself eloquently.

I believe you, that you see possible, hidden dangers, even for the existence of your nation, in connection with a possible visit of Mr. Trump to the UK, but you are definitively not afraid of them.

I got it. Sorry again, if I gave you the impression that I think you are a fearful person; It was not at all my intention as I was honestly interested in your feedback.

There is no point in any discussion with somebody who is twisting words.

And no, you did not get it.

Edited January 7, 2016 by stevenl