The Beauty Of The Thai Language - A True Story

[Tahnil]

When I was a youth I was a Teutophile, a Galophile but most of all an Anglophile.

I thought English as spoken in Shakespearean plays would be the epitome of spoken languages.

Review Franco Zeffirelli's Romeo and Juliet (1968) to see what I'm talking about.

It so happened that one day, in my late teens or early twenties, I was waiting to see a doctor at Samitivej Hospital in Bangkok.

There was an old Thai couple, in their seventies or eighties, also waiting not far away and talking to each other.

I was absolutely stunned as I listened in.

I had never heard such beautiful Thai spoken, the tone of voice, the choice of word, it was a complete package.

It was so beautiful and poetic and it completely opened my eyes to the incredible beauty of the language that until then had completely eluded me.

I wish I had a recorder with me so I can relive the experience today, thinking about it now.

I have not heard anything similar before or since, although I have spent the majority of my years in the west.

Not the dramas on tv nor in films, where the speeches I find incredibly contrived and unnatural.

Certainly not what you would hear on the streets of Bangkok.

Many years ago there was a class of people, the Thai word is ผู้ดี, literally "who is good," or well bred, well raised, and well mannered, in short, ladies and gentlemen.

As a young boy I wasn't a reader of Thai novels.

But there was one of my mother's that I happened to pick up and could not put down.

It was ชัยชนะของหลวงนฤบาล (2478) by ดอกไม้สด or หม่อมหลวงบุปผา (กุญชร) นิมมานเหมินท์

If you read Thai I highly recommend a sampling of this to relive the nobility of words, deeds and manners of yesteryears.

That book came to life in a waiting area of Samitivej Hospital many years ago.

And my appreciation of the Thai language changed forever.

[Seligne2]

I wish I could have heard that. Most of the Thai I hear spoken in markets, etc., is incredibly ugly to my ear.

[CaptHaddock]

Your "true story" would also have point if you were able to express the difference.

[stoneyboy]

Language as well as manners tends to be connected to ones upbringing.

Given that many people here live in abstract poverty with very little quality education it's hardly surprising that these noble words,deeds and manners you talk of have disappeared.

You could walk the streets of Moss Side in Manchester or the streets of Kensington in London,the language,nobility,deeds and manners would be very different.

My level of reading Thai is minimal,but spoken Thai is adequate I don't really understand the OP I'm afraid.

[stoneyboy]

Your "true story" would also have point if you were able to express the difference.

Yes it comes across as a tale of the educated against the lesser fortunate in my opinion.

[Tahnil]

I agree. I wish I had it on tape (back then it was an analog world). I wish to hear it again today so much to relive the experience.

[Your "true story" would also have point if you were able to express the difference.]

The difference is not unlike RP vs. Cockney, the latter can be unpleasant except in a drama where it's expected.

The difference is in the tone of voice, the measured rhythm and the use of words.

The point is there can be a huge difference in the way Thai is spoken not unlike in English, something I wasn't aware of at the time.

[Given that many people here live in abstract poverty with very little quality education it's hardly surprising that these noble words,deeds and manners you talk of have disappeared.]

You are onto something. People living in a particular space and time may be limited to the concurrent possibilities. Things have a richness in depth and history that are missed by casual observers of the immediate surface.

[bearpolar]

Your "true story" would also have point if you were able to express the difference.

Yes it comes across as a tale of the educated against the lesser fortunate in my opinion.

not really. My gf speaks very eloquently while her brother speaks like hes evacuating krap from his mouth. They both have the same kind of university education.

Just like back home, my language is dirtier than some with the same education as me and much better than a lot with the same education as me.

It has to do with personality

Edited January 18, 2016 by bearpolar

[jacky54]

so why no Thai Shakespeare then? seems like a crude language to me with a limited vocabulary. The story appears to be just that.

[Tahnil]

A Thai Shakespeare would have to be Sunthorn Phu:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunthorn_Phu

A more recent figure, King Rama VI, also ranks, responsible for a lot what would be commonly in Thai heads today.

English educated, why Thailand was on the English side even though Germans had done more for the country and without trying to appropriate any land like the British and French.

Here's one poem, the last two verses here made into a well known patriotic song:

๏ หากสยามยังอยู่ยั้ง ยืนยง เราก็เหมือนอยู่คง ชีพด้วย หากสยามพินาศลง ไทยอยู่ ได้ฤๅ เราก็เหมือนมอดม้วย หมดสิ้นสกุลไทยฯ

๏ ใครรานใครรุกด้าว แดนไทย ไทยรบจนสุดใจ ขาดดิ้น เสียเนื้อเลือดหลั่งไหล ยอมสละ สิ้นแล เสียชีพไป่เสียสิ้น ชื่อก้องเกียรติงามฯ

[CaptHaddock]

so why no Thai Shakespeare then? seems like a crude language to me with a limited vocabulary. The story appears to be just that.

Thai language seems crude and with a limited vocabulary to you because your Thai vocabulary is probably a few hundred words at best and your grasp of it is correspondingly crude. And likely always will be.

[Tahnil]

so why no Thai Shakespeare then? seems like a crude language to me with a limited vocabulary. The story appears to be just that.

Thai language seems crude and with a limited vocabulary to you because your Thai vocabulary is probably a few hundred words at best and your grasp of it is correspondingly crude. And likely always will be.

Indeed, be not deceived.

Everyday language may be simple but a meaningful discourse may offer a very steep learning curve to the uninitiated.

You can not separate the language from the culture and the Thai vocabulary borrows heavily from 2500 years of Buddhism.

There are a lot of pali sanskrit words steep with meanings that can not be so easily explained but require a separate initiation into the philosophy.

These are not rarely used among Thais as you would think but frequently employed to get a very, very complex point across in just one word.

Men in Thailand traditionally enter monkhood for a period as they come of age and so your taxi driver might know what would seem like highfalutin words and concepts.

Needless to say Thais don't try to spring such on foreigners as it would be cruel.

[CaptHaddock]

so why no Thai Shakespeare then? seems like a crude language to me with a limited vocabulary. The story appears to be just that.

Thai language seems crude and with a limited vocabulary to you because your Thai vocabulary is probably a few hundred words at best and your grasp of it is correspondingly crude. And likely always will be.

Indeed, be not deceived.

Everyday language may be simple but a meaningful discourse may offer a very steep learning curve to the uninitiated.

You can not separate the language from the culture and the Thai vocabulary borrows heavily from 2500 years of Buddhism.

There are a lot of pali sanskrit words steep with meanings that can not be so easily explained but require a separate initiation into the philosophy.

These are not rarely used among Thais as you would think but frequently employed to get a very, very complex point across in just one word.

Men in Thailand traditionally enter monkhood for a period as they come of age and so your taxi driver might know what would seem like highfalutin words and concepts.

Needless to say Thais don't try to spring such on foreigners as it would be cruel.

There must not be many Thais whose command of English reaches as far as the correct usage of the word "highfalutin." Just how did that come to pass?

[Tahnil]

[There must not be many Thais whose command of English reaches as far as the correct usage of the word "highfalutin." Just how did that come to pass?]

I came of age in the English speaking world.

If I were to write a novel it would be in English.

Don't think of me as a Thai when it comes to English.

Only think of me as a Thai when it comes to Thai.

[Tahnil]

I have received kind words in private and would like to assure all that I take absolutely no offense in any differences whatsoever.

Apposing views are great and provide a further opportunity to make one's case:

Thank you David for your comment.

One's opinion reflects one's experience as you so noted.

And as is the subject of my thread, there is more to the Thai language than what most people are exposed to merely living in Thailand.

It's sort of like present day English on the streets, one would be ill-informed to judge English by that!

Myself I have experienced different peoples the world over.

It's like water rolling off the back of the duck to come across people who may appear rude or insensitive.

We take after our kinds as they do theirs and it takes all the different types to make the world.

PS - I should like to mention this in the thread as many may feel the way you do and feel uncomfortable by the interaction. I would like to assure all that I take absolutely no offense and welcome all comments as a further opportunity for discussion.

Thanks again.

[Tahnil]

Among Bangkok teenagers 60.53% use incorrect Thai writing and grammar (2556 survey by Siam Technological College).

"Specialists, linguists, Thai teachers, however, are most concerned to discover poor reading comprehension and an inability to transcribe ideas and feelings into effective and smart written Thai like in previous generations."

[tgeezer]

The handwriting was superb in that clip. It makes me want to put this thing away and do some. There is no doubt in my mind that muscle memory is vital; if you cant do things in slow mo then you will never manage to do them quickly.

[Tahnil]

[The handwriting was superb in that clip.]

Actually, no. These are kids just learning to write the alphabets after all.

Compare how people write English today versus a hundred years ago.

The contrast is stark!

[farang95]

i never imagined that i could read speak and write thai for real..... most incredible i did intensify my learning back to Europe.......

The language is beautiful....and very interesting....very complicate too..They got crazy Accent...And the alphabet..is very hard to memorize at first.....

Thanks to the INTERNET...... !!!!

If you wanna learn thai....you need one thing: Motivation..and true love for the country i guess......

[tgeezer]

Oh god, Tahnil are you trying to be argumentative, did you watch the clip? I saw a girl writing beautifully and another presumably much younger girl learning the correct form by filling in dotted lines same letter time after time. I was referring to the handwriting.

Edited January 22, 2016 by tgeezer

[condo bought]

I wish I could have heard that. Most of the Thai I hear spoken in markets, etc., is incredibly ugly to my ear.

I like how they speak out of their noses.

[Tahnil]

[Oh god, Tahnil are you trying to be argumentative, did you watch the clip? I saw a girl writing beautifully and another presumably much younger girl learning the correct form by filling in dotted lines same letter time after time. I was referring to the handwriting.]

I know.

They looked horrible because they were large, slowly drawn, the lines showing hesitation and completely lacking fluidity.

Have you seen little children learning to write ABC?

Same deal.

[Tahnil]

[If you wanna learn thai....you need one thing: Motivation..and true love for the country i guess...... ]

I agree.

I have not studied Spanish because of same.

[GarryP]

I love the idea of "abstract poverty". Much more tolerable than "abject poverty".

[tgeezer]

You didn't look did you? At about fifty seconds and again about eight seconds from the end. Having paused it isn't so good but alright.

[bannork]

so why no Thai Shakespeare then? seems like a crude language to me with a limited vocabulary. The story appears to be just that.

Ignorance Jacky, pure ignorance, have you never heard of Sunton Phu or the still living Naowarat Pongphaiboon?

Here's an example from Sunton Phu of beauty of language combined with meaning.

And as for limited vocabulary, do you know how many words Thais have for I or for the sun?

แล้วสอนว่าอย่าไว้ใจมนุษย์ มันแสนสุดลึกล้ำเหลือกำหนด ถึงเถาวัลย์พันเกี่ยวที่เลี้ยวลด ก็ไม่คดเหมือนหนึ่งในน้ำใจคน

translates as teach you not to trust the heart of man, it's unfathomable depths are such that the most gnarled and twisted vine cannot compare to the hearts of men.

The beauty in the sound is in the alliteration and rhythm

or another example talking about the melodious sound of a kind of cicada and how it reminds him of a beautiful girl, but the beauty of the language is the rhyme and alliteration which makes it flow so beautifully.

แล้วแจ้วจักจั่นจ้า จับใจ

หริ่งหริ่งเรื่อยเรไร ร่ำร้อง

แซงแซวส่งเสียงใส ทราบโสต

แหนงนิ่งนึกนุชน้อง แนบเนื้อนวลนาง

Edited January 22, 2016 by bannork

[Tahnil]

[

แล้วแจ้วจักจั่นจ้า จับใจ

หริ่งหริ่งเรื่อยเรไร ร่ำร้อง

แซงแซวส่งเสียงใส ทราบโสต

แหนงนิ่งนึกนุชน้อง แนบเนื้อนวลนาง]

That's a real tongue twister.

When you can say this clearly, you CAN speak Thai and probably many other languages.

[Tahnil]

Composed by a French national who fell in love with the Thai language:

วิชาเหมือนสินค้า

อันมีค่าอยู่เมืองไกล

ต้องยากลำบากไป

จึงจะได้สินค้ามา

จงตั้งเอากายเจ้า

เป็นสำเภาอันโสภา

ความเพียรเป็นโยธา

แขนซ้ายขวาเป็นเสาใบ

นิ้วเป็นสายระยาง

สองเท้าต่างสมอใหญ่

ปากเป็นนายงานไป

อัชฌาสัยเป็นเสบียง

สติเป็นหางเสือ

ถือท้ายเรือไว้ให้เที่ยง

ถือไว้อย่าให้เอียง

ตัดแล่นเลี่ยงข้ามคงคา

ปัญญาเป็นกล้องแก้ว

ส่องดูแถวแนวหินผา

เจ้าจงเอาหูตา

เป็นล้าต้าฟังดูลม

ขึ้เกียจคือปลาร้าย

จะทำลายให้เรือจม

เอาใจเป็นปืนคม

ยิงระดมให้จมไป

จึงจะได้สินค้ามา

คือวิชาอันพิสมัย

จงหมั่นมั่นหมายใจ

อย่าได้คร้านการวิชา.

(Used to teach 10 year-olds.)

[Tahnil]

Recitation บทอาขยาน for 11 year-olds (ป. 6)

เป็นมนุษย์หรือเป็นคน

เป็นมนุษย์ เป็นได้ เพราะใจสูง

เหมือนหนึ่งยูง มีดี ที่แววขน

ถ้าใจต่ำ เป็นได้ แต่เพียงคน

ย่อมเสียที ที่ตน ได้เกิดมา

ใจสะอาด ใจสว่าง ใจสงบ

ถ้ามีครบ ควรเรียก มนุสสา

เพราะทำถูก พูดถูก ทุกเวลา

เปรมปรีดา คืนวัน ศุขสันติ์จริง

ใจสกปรก มึดมัว และร้อนเร่า

ใครมีเข้า ควรเรียก ว่าผีสิง

เพราะพูดผิด ทำผิด จิตประวิง

แต่ในสิ่ง นำตัว กลั้วอบาย

คิดดูเถิด ถ้าใครไม่อยากตก

จงรีบยก ใจตน รีบขวนขวาย

ให้ใจสูง เสียได้ ก่อนตัวตาย

ก็สมหมาย ที่เกิดมา อย่าเชือนเอยฯ

พุทธทาสภิกขุ.

[Richard W]

[The handwriting was superb in that clip.]

Actually, no. These are kids just learning to write the alphabets after all.

Which alphabets? I only saw Thai characters being written.

[Tahnil]

[Which alphabets? I only saw Thai characters being written.

The Thai alphabet.

But they would be similarly taught the English alphabet as well.

And the results would be very similar to how they write the Thai alphabet.

They just don't look good until much later, if at all.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Tahnil