Los Ranked Number 3 For Murders

[jumbo]

Iraq, Afghanisthan and Kashmir are active warzones. Hardly comparable to Thailand.

Here is a small link about China. Given its population of more than a billion, the murder rate of the stated 31 000 cases is miniscule.

Guns etc are far more difficult to come by in China.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-05...tent_592568.htm

By all accounts, Thailand has a far higher murder rate than the one of the US, the western country with the highest murder rate. So, unless you are from from Colombia or Russia, Thailand is indeed a rather violent place.

So we should just forget the other 12 countries + those that do not cooperate and have a higher rate??

J

[meemiathai]

Here in Thailand it would take me about 30 minutes, and a few thousand baht, to get a black market gun, if i would want to. Pen guns go for about 200 baht, but they are useless for distances more than a few meters.

Well, I'll ask and see if I can do the same here in China. I have good connections too.

I don't disagree though maybe here in China they tend to use knives more than guns.

[ColPyat]

So we should just forget the other 12 countries + those that do not cooperate and have a higher rate??

J

Unless those "12 countries +" that do not cooperate and have a higher rate are western countries, i do beleive that Thailand is indeed far more violent than most western countries. Not, as many posters state, safer than their home countries.

I have no doubt that there are many far more violent countries than Thailand, i have been in several. But Thailand being safer than the west ist a complete underestimation of Thailand's security issues.

[ColPyat]

Here in Thailand it would take me about 30 minutes, and a few thousand baht, to get a black market gun, if i would want to. Pen guns go for about 200 baht, but they are useless for distances more than a few meters.

Well, I'll ask and see if I can do the same here in China. I have good connections too.

I don't disagree though maybe here in China they tend to use knives more than guns.

So they do here in Thailand - machetes are a favourite in gang fights, and they generally leave gruesome injuries. Hacked off hands (typical defensive wounds), split skulls with brain matter running out...

[qualtrough]

So we should just forget the other 12 countries + those that do not cooperate and have a higher rate??

J

Unless those "12 countries +" that do not cooperate and have a higher rate are western countries, i do beleive that Thailand is indeed far more violent than most western countries. Not, as many posters state, safer than their home countries.

I have no doubt that there are many far more violent countries than Thailand, i have been in several. But Thailand being safer than the west ist a complete underestimation of Thailand's security issues.

Maybe somebody else said it, but I didn't. Thailand isn't safer than Western countries, but it may well be safer for many farangs.

Question for all the Chicken Littles here: For the sake of argument let us assume you are right. Thailand is dangerous for farangs and getting worse. What exactly do you want us to do? Move? Pack a gun? Stay indoors? Warn others against living here? How about some positive steps to address the issues you raise instead of sitting around like a bunch of old biddies scaring each other?

[ColPyat]

Maybe somebody else said it, but I didn't. Thailand isn't safer than Western countries, but it may well be safer for many farangs.

Question for all the Chicken Littles here: For the sake of argument let us assume you are right. Thailand is dangerous for farangs and getting worse. What exactly do you want us to do? Move? Pack a gun? Stay indoors? Warn others against living here? How about some positive steps to address the issues you raise instead of sitting around like a bunch of old biddies scaring each other?

Yes, i didn't mean you. I think i understood you there.

What to do?

Well, first of all - people should stop denying clear facts just because they do not suit their romantic notions of the place here. Clearheadedly asses where the dangers are and which.

And as they say - when in Rome...

Nops, arming oneself is idiotic, IMHO, and only draws trouble. I believe it is prudent to adapt in some way, learn how to communicate in Thai, especially and also recognising the codes of non-verbal communication. Making local friends, so one can be part of a social network, or peergroup that every Thai is part of. And important to mention - friendship that is bought is no real friendship.

Not going out? That would not be my lifestyle, if it would be so bad, i would not want to life here anymore. But one should still be reasonable enough where one goes out, and where better not. Local friends will be the best source of knowledge. And, in case of trouble, the best protection.

Just look at Thais - they rarely go out in areas they have no friends, or access to a peergroup. There is a reason for that. I am sure that for farang life is still safer in this aspect, but still, when alcohol is involved, certain resentments against farang can easily come out in the open. One has to know than when to better leave in order to avoid conflicts that can get easily out of hand here.

Where i life here, i feel very safe. In my area there are many slums, but people know me, and they know that i am part of a local network, part of a peer group. They know that i will not be an easy target. So, yes, i enjoy life here very much.

[terry57]

It's a bit of a crazy country though, isn't it?

The fact that most "transgressions" will not happen to a farang is not the point.

That depends on if you are a farang or not.

There have been a few unsavoury incidents close to me recently in the last month, at least three ended in fatalities.

Young Thai lads fighting over the affections of a girl (I don't think it was the same girl in all cases, but you never know).... as I never frequent the place that these 'accidents' happened, do I look worried?

If some young Thai bucks decide to have a bit of a scrap after a few bottles of Lao Khao, that isn't my problem (it's not quite the same as litter).... I know my limits, I know when to get involved and when to stay well away.

Thailand is as safe or as dangerous as you want it to be.... and in that respect, it's just like any other country.

i think your post just about sums things up my friend.

its not very hard to avoid trouble is it.

i've always got my trouble radar on high beam and if i feel that things are getting a bit excited i just move well away and watch the action unfold.

whether it be farang or thai starting to play up i can feel it and just move on.

its worked every time for me but i must say it hasn't occurred very often.

seen more action here in perth with pissed up locals.

[Douggie Style]

well reasoned Qualtrough!

Which leads me to my crime theory of the minute >

The subconscious, instinctive mind (not sure what it is called but the one that used to keep us safe in the jungle) is over represented in our personal safety decisions (because primitive fear generally overrules the purely rational mind) and so overestimates the risks.

Looking at it strictly with the rational mind, Thai crime it is not that unpredictable and therefore necessarily dangerous (excluding the wild unpredictable element), identify the patterns, move safely between the seams.

I admit, this sounds like pyschobabble parc. its late, the point is fear often seems to overrule a more rigorous rational approach.

[Thaddeus]

its not very hard to avoid trouble is it.

Thank you Terry.

It isn't difficult to avoid trouble but I can see the 'random acts of violence' statements from a couple of punters holding some water.

I don't go there either..... random acts of violence are seldom random.... and between Thai Farang are rare, in fact, between Thai Farang I doubt they happen at all. Random is not a word that I would feel comfortable using in this context.

Edited October 22, 2006 by Thaddeus

[Thaddeus]

//edit/ thank you IPStar

Edited October 22, 2006 by Thaddeus

[migrant]

its not very hard to avoid trouble is it.

Thank you Terry.

It isn't difficult to avoid trouble but I can see the 'random acts of violence' statements from a couple of punters holding some water.

I don't go there either..... random acts of violence are seldom random.... and between Thai Farang are rare, in fact, between Thai Farang I doubt they happen at all.

I agree with you, and Terry.

I grew up in Detroit, murder capital of the US back then (and still always places in the top 5). I also spent a lot of time in Honduras where the UN declared the police ineffective, and the country without law (back then).

In neither place did I live in the hi-so areas, but in 15 years growing up in Detroit, only saw 3 murder victims (OK first 5 were a blur).

I live in Southern California now, and there are many areas I choose not to walk at any time of the day.

Be aware, be awake, be (try) sober (ish), stay away from someones wife, and you should be fine, other than random violence, which you have no control over anyway.

[Thaddeus]

I grew up in the North West of the UK.

I drove through Toxteth thirty minutes before the riots started, I was in the Arndale Center just before the IRA decided to demolish it with explosives, I walked past the Trash can that claimed the life of a young boy in Warrington by blowing him to bits.

Do I feel safer here? .......... yes......... a resounding yes.

In Thailand I know where not to go, other countries, especially the one I was raised in, I learned that you shouldn't feel safe anywhere.

[meemiathai]

I grew up in the North West of the UK.

I drove through Toxteth thirty minutes before the riots started, I was in the Arndale Center just before the IRA decided to demolish it with explosives, I walked past the Trash can that claimed the life of a young boy in Warrington by blowing him to bits.

Do I feel safer here? .......... yes......... a resounding yes.

In Thailand I know where not to go, other countries, especially the one I was raised in, I learned that you shouldn't feel safe anywhere.

But that was long time ago. England is very safe nowadays. I do read statistics sometimes.

[meemiathai]

I could still feel very safe even if I see a few killed by hitman daily.

But I will get out of the place as soon as possible if I only see one being picked out weekly for no reason and kicked on the ass.

It is what is out of control for me that's called dangerous.

Anyway it's no point arguig what is safe and what is not. It's a feeling that differs among people.

Edited October 22, 2006 by meemiathai

[meemiathai]

When I go to thai discos(actually wherever I am), I pay attention to my surroundings. I do not misbehave but dance like a mad man. As a farang(i'm half), you are being noticeable and observed by the thais. They are not stupid, they might not know your language but they can tell from your behaviour and body language if you are being disrespectful to their country. If you aren't, most likely you will be left alone. They will even love you if you can do a bit of morlum.

By the way, I dance more laosly than a lot of laos people.

Of course, crazy people exist everywhere.

[Fontok]

jumbo,

thank u for the stats u gave here. The difference is not so big. It gives me a confirmation that my country (Germany) is one of the most safe and quiet countries in the world now. Why is it so? I think it depends on the education level. We are well educated in a humanistic tradition. The actual education level in Thailand - I would suppose u agree - is not from its best. Education gives u the possibility to know, to reflect, to differentiate and at least to control yourself. These things have to be improved and to be corrected in the future. There are a lot of other stuff and hidden matters but I think it's enough for now.

Edited October 22, 2006 by Fontok

[meemiathai]

jumbo,

thank u for the stats u gave here. The difference is not so big. It gives me a confirmation that my country (Germany) is one of the most safe and quiet countries in the world now. Why is it so? I think it depends on the education level. We are well educated in a humanistic tradition. The actual education level in Thailand - I would suppose u agree - is not from its best. Education gives u the possibility to know, to reflect, to differentiate and at least to control yourself. These things have to be improved and to be corrected in the future. There are a lot of other stuff and hidden matters but I think it's enough for now.

I beg to disagree. It might play a small part, I guess. But I think inequality plays an important role in a society. Most things begin from there. ? Culture?

[Fontok]

jumbo,

thank u for the stats u gave here. The difference is not so big. It gives me a confirmation that my country (Germany) is one of the most safe and quiet countries in the world now. Why is it so? I think it depends on the education level. We are well educated in a humanistic tradition. The actual education level in Thailand - I would suppose u agree - is not from its best. Education gives u the possibility to know, to reflect, to differentiate and at least to control yourself. These things have to be improved and to be corrected in the future. There are a lot of other stuff and hidden matters but I think it's enough for now.

I beg to disagree. It might play a small part, I guess. But I think inequality plays an important role in a society. Most things begin from there. ? Culture?

When u improve the education on all levels u will reduce social inequality, right?

[Eastender]

Many things on ANY forum are obviously touched on before at some time. This is obviously more important than most subjects, and perhaps should be repeated on here regularly.

Thanks for taking the time.

During my wedding party there was a shooting. Some poeple very close to me were involved, and somebody was injured. It was all very petty and just young (early twenties) gang rivalry. No money involed just trying to be the biggest 'man', it seems.

Anyway, it opened my eyes a bit.

Edited October 22, 2006 by Eastender

[suiging]

jumbo,

thank u for the stats u gave here. The difference is not so big. It gives me a confirmation that my country (Germany) is one of the most safe and quiet countries in the world now. Why is it so? I think it depends on the education level. We are well educated in a humanistic tradition. The actual education level in Thailand - I would suppose u agree - is not from its best. Education gives u the possibility to know, to reflect, to differentiate and at least to control yourself. These things have to be improved and to be corrected in the future. There are a lot of other stuff and hidden matters but I think it's enough for now.

Sorry to disagree ( well flame to be honest )

The standards of education in Thailand are as good as anywhere in the Region and the graveyards of Europe groan under the weight of your humanistic tradition. Germans, Brits and indeeed Thai's have strong martial traditions, don't kid yourself that all is well in the back streets of the industrial towns in your former East or the slums of inner city UK. Perhaps the Thai's are a tad more honest in their approach to statistics. It certainly appears they are a little more honest in acknowledgment of their problems.

[Thaddeus]

When I go to thai discos(actually wherever I am), I pay attention to my surroundings. I do not misbehave but dance like a mad man. As a farang(i'm half), you are being noticeable and observed by the thais. They are not stupid, they might not know your language but they can tell from your behaviour and body language if you are being disrespectful to their country. If you aren't, most likely you will be left alone. They will even love you if you can do a bit of morlum.

By the way, I dance more laosly than a lot of laos people.

Of course, crazy people exist everywhere.

Replying to two posts, but only quoting one.

I agree with you to a degree, but isn't the social climate the same everywhere?

Walk into Mr Smiths in Warrington on a Saturday night..... as an English speaking farang, you will know what is being said by those around you, if a person of limited English ability goes there, let's pick a nationality at random, Thai, enters the same place, they should still be able to read the undertones of the gathering.... there are some places in my country of birth were I feel like a stranger in a strange land.

With regards to England being safer now than it was, try using any transport system in London and not doing a mental examination of the other passengers.

A few years back the UK was just the potential target of some smaller portion of the British Isles, the target is still the same size but the target gallery attendance has increased somewhat.

[suiging]

When I go to thai discos(actually wherever I am), I pay attention to my surroundings. I do not misbehave but dance like a mad man. As a farang(i'm half), you are being noticeable and observed by the thais. They are not stupid, they might not know your language but they can tell from your behaviour and body language if you are being disrespectful to their country. If you aren't, most likely you will be left alone. They will even love you if you can do a bit of morlum.

By the way, I dance more laosly than a lot of laos people.

Of course, crazy people exist everywhere.

Replying to two posts, but only quoting one.

I agree with you to a degree, but isn't the social climate the same everywhere?

Walk into Mr Smiths in Warrington on a Saturday night..... as an English speaking farang, you will know what is being said by those around you, if a person of limited English ability goes there, let's pick a nationality at random, Thai, enters the same place, they should still be able to read the undertones of the gathering.... there are some places in my country of birth were I feel like a stranger in a strange land.

With regards to England being safer now than it was, try using any transport system in London and not doing a mental examination of the other passengers.

A few years back the UK was just the potential target of some smaller portion of the British Isles, the target is still the same size but the target gallery attendance has increased somewhat.

Fully agree

In LOS I have walked into many bars in the sticks ( usually full of m/cycle taxi types ) where a feeling of unease has made me turn round and politely leave. Language or lack of it not a problem , to pick up the general buzz of the place by non verbal means. The difference to my home town in the UK and I suspect to many of similar towns throughout Europe, is I could at least walk out !!

I have never felt at any time in the LOS that I was in danger of mindless violence. Upset local neds for sure and it may well find you, but in general, there has to be a reason, no matter how slight, for trouble to find you from the locals even in ugly old Patters.

Now the problems of the South are a different matter, but again not unique to LOS, sadly this type of mindless threat follows you around the globe.

[jumbo]

Personally I go everywhere. I never am bothered by thai other than grins and cheers.

I speak thai but never do that because I do not want to 'invite' them to sit at my table

They will always try to speak english and make contact especially in area's where not much farang frequent. I am polite, they respect that and I never ran into any kind of trouble.

I am a Dutchman and would really prefer to walk around drunk in the middle of the night in Bangkok than not drunk and in the evening in Amsterdam, I feel much saver in Bangkok

I also lived in the US, Woodridge/Chicago and Fort Lauderdale, and travelled there quit a bit. The first time I arrived there in the 80.s they were just handing out unmarked rental cars ...because marked it showed you were a tourist and therefore an 'easy target'. Robbing them gunpoint at gasoline stations was a new trend back than......... I never drove in Chicago or Miami city's because I didnot want to get lost and get into neigbourhoods were it was better for me not to come...except on the main roads of course

Talking feeling safe; I feel extremely safe in Bangkok and Thailand for that matter.....In 10 years I witnessed just two fights one in Central BKK between farangs and one local one wiht the hatches and all....not a pretty sigh....and yes I do get our frequently.

I think that if you can handle and control yourself nothing will happen with you

Flashing money and bling is also not a good idea.....they already know we have money, no reason to rub it in....

Couple of weeks ago I saw a documentairy about Detroit I believe, one of the murdercapitals of the US. Funny enough across the river is Canada and people across that river/lake in Canada sleep with their doors unlocked and murder rate was somewhere below zero..........

So lets bring up that subject about education having an influence........or is it gunlaws...or is it just the nature of people....why is the river making a difference here???

Does it mean that at the other side of Chao Praya we find different Thai or farang for that matter???

J

[Donz]

I bet the real stats wont have Thailand in the top 10.

Everyone has different stats so who really knows? But im sure Thialand isntthe safest place in the world

[jumbo]

I bet the real stats wont have Thailand in the top 10.

Everyone has different stats so who really knows? But im sure Thialand isntthe safest place in the world

Well Donz

You are correct, if the 'not real' stats (from a statistics agency for your info) do not have thailand in the top 10 than the 'real stats' would probaly not have that as well

It is definately not the safest place, but you are talking country, but that would be a different topic I guess....Is there a safe country in this world??

J

[Nam Kao]

Most of the fighting i seen is akin to the pack mentality of finding order in the pack.

When i met me wife 2 of her brothers were Thai boxer types, when i first went upcountry

to meet the family I had feeling they were going to test me after my wife telling them i boxed

in the US and them asking a million questions related to how good i was etc. so i packed my

gloves, mouthpiece etc because knew what was ahead of me. We got there and they approached

me like like 1 dog smelling another dogs can. I was checking them out too. So my wife introduces

me and one says something about "farang muay thai?". I reached in my bag and pulled out

my gloves and motioned like asking them to box. Bang both jumped up and they grabbed their

gloves hidden conveniently close by and escorted out behind the house out of sight and we

brawled for about an hour. My wife wife came out and asked "What you doing?" I laughed

and said "Oh I just playing with brothers you" wiping the blood dripping out of my nose.

She said "ah you guys crazy". Then is was back to the octagon. Word travelled fast and I

ended up sparring about 10 other thai guys over the course of 3 days. And they were all

sparring each other trying to find the order of the pack.

These fights you see at parties are probably the same thing

-nam

[Donz]

Also im sure the problems down south would boost the stats up alot.

[Fontok]

jumbo,

thank u for the stats u gave here. The difference is not so big. It gives me a confirmation that my country (Germany) is one of the most safe and quiet countries in the world now. Why is it so? I think it depends on the education level. We are well educated in a humanistic tradition. The actual education level in Thailand - I would suppose u agree - is not from its best. Education gives u the possibility to know, to reflect, to differentiate and at least to control yourself. These things have to be improved and to be corrected in the future. There are a lot of other stuff and hidden matters but I think it's enough for now.

Sorry to disagree ( well flame to be honest )

The standards of education in Thailand are as good as anywhere in the Region and the graveyards of Europe groan under the weight of your humanistic tradition. Germans, Brits and indeeed Thai's have strong martial traditions, don't kid yourself that all is well in the back streets of the industrial towns in your former East or the slums of inner city UK. Perhaps the Thai's are a tad more honest in their approach to statistics. It certainly appears they are a little more honest in acknowledgment of their problems.

I agree predominantly because it was not the point of discussion in my opinion. Yes we in Europe (many not all) have a strong tradition in martial violence. But I grew up in Germany with a peaceful and humanistic education. I speak about me not about my whole country and not about the whole history of my country. May be that ist another thread. Let's talk about the current situation in Thailand. I think its too simple to take the stats of murders as a fault. There is a lot of truth in it. Thai are not more honest than other people. Especially in lying they are no amatuers too. Bangkok is not full of angels. Let me say it so.

First of all I believe in what I see and trust my experiences.

1.)

In 98' when I first came to Siam on my third day my nose was broken by a hand of a drunk Thai man in the Silom Street at 5pm without a reason when I was walking around. I drink no alcohol it just happened to me. May be an accident?

2.)

A few years ago I divorced from my Thai wife and now I have land and house left in a small village well closed and a friend of mine sometimes takes care of it. The furniture was stolen completely. The air condition was torn out. Even the water pump installed on my land disappeared. May be an accident?

3.)

We live now in a small town (some say a village). Carabao came here a few months ago. 3 young men died at 9 pm on the market. They were drunk and killed each other with guns. No reason and the media kept silent about this "event". May be an accident?

4.) I drive a car and we are traveling sometimes around of Thailand. Until now I saw 9 deaths on the streets of Thailand. In Germany I didn't see one death in decades. May be an accident?

There are a lot of accidents. May be these are really accidents. But it happened and it happened to me. There will be diversities of interpretation, in my opinion the cause is:

- No control of yourself

- No respect of each other

- A huge alcohol problem

- A lack of good education on all levels

But once again. I don't care. I have to accept it because I am not in a position to change something here and I am not here for that. I like it quiet and simple and Thailand gives me the opportunity to do it in my way. They let me and I let them.

[bulmercke]

Guns etc are far more difficult to come by in China.

Don't tell me you also have worked in the rescue services in China.

I really doubt what you said.

Nops, but i have been many times in China over the last 15 years or so. And i have several friends who live and work in China for a very long time, and whose judgement on those issues i do not doubt.

Here in Thailand it would take me about 30 minutes, and a few

thousand baht, to get a black market gun, if i would want to. Pen guns go for about 200 baht, but they are useless for distances more than a few meters.

This is a common misconception. Assuming you are a foreigner living here.....then it would be quite difficult for you to acquire a semi decent firearm; the problem for you would be finding Thais with the right sources and contacts to procure the weapon on your behalf and who would be willing to do business with a foreigner who they know relatively nothing about. However, money wouldn't really be a factor.....but confidence beween the fixer and you would ultimately be the deciding factor here in Thailand.

And allowing me to add my two pennies worth on the subject in hand, I would have to say that I consider Thailand to be a fairly violent country.

Of course, some areas are safer than others - that goes without saying - but in the main, in my experience, Thailand unfortunately 'enjoys' more than it's fair share of crime and violence, and in the main much of it goes unreported by the media - for whatever reasons -

Fifteen years tells me unequivocally that Thailand is an extremely violent country......you only have to read the various Thai language newsapapers daily to get an idea of the nature and character of the country and it's populace!

Edited October 23, 2006 by bulmercke

[ColPyat]

This is a common misconception. Assuming you are a foreigner living here.....then it would be quite difficult for you to acquire a semi decent firearm; the problem for you would be finding Thais with the right sources and contacts to procure the weapon on your behalf and who would be willing to do business with a foreigner who they know relatively nothing about. However, money wouldn't really be a factor.....but confidence beween the fixer and you would ultimately be the deciding factor here in Thailand.

And allowing me to add my two pennies worth on the subject in hand, I would have to say that I consider Thailand to be a fairly violent country.

Of course, some areas are safer than others - that goes without saying - but in the main, in my experience, Thailand unfortunately 'enjoys' more than it's fair share of crime and violence, and in the main much of it goes unreported by the media - for whatever reasons -

Fifteen years tells me unequivocally that Thailand is an extremely violent country......you only have to read the various Thai language newsapapers daily to get an idea of the nature and character of the country and it's populace!

This is not a misconception. I am a foreigner living here, and it would take me 30 minutes to get a gun, if i would want one (which i don't).

It would take me a lot less time than that, and no money whatsoever, about 5 minutes, to call friends over with their illegal guns. I don't know many Thais who do not have a gun stashed away somewhere, or have very easy access to one. Every cop here has a legal gun and an illegal throwaway gun. Most people who have a legal gun have an illegal piece as well. If they shoot an intruder, they put the illegal gun in his hand in order to get away with the shooting.

Upcountry we even do own not so legal guns. Not handguns though, just flintlocks for hunting. Everybody does.

No, if you have Thai friends it is very easy to acquire illegal guns. Most people just didn't ask.

The rest of your post i do agree though.