Biden: 'Overwhelming frustration' with Israeli govt

[Ulysses G.]

Please try to distinguish between anti-Semite and anti-Zionist.

IMO, there is often very little difference. "Zionist" is often just a PC way to call someone a Jew. I know very few Jews who consider themselves "Zionists", but they support Israel's right to exist.

It is very reassuring that you know a few Jews who are not as bad as the rest.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

Please try to distinguish between anti-Semite and anti-Zionist.

IMO, there is often very little difference. 'Zionist" is just a PC way to call someone a Jew. I know very few Jews who consider themselves "Zionists", but they support Israel's right to exist.

Yes. As Israel DOES exist Zionism has evolved into supporting the right of Israel to exist and defend itself / political self determination for the Jewish people. Roughly about 90 percent of Jews in the world (recently Israel includes more Jews than any other nation) do support that. You're right identifying as a Zionist seems dated for many Jews ... it's more about identification with the state of Israel. (Basically the SAME thing.)

Support for Israel as above does not mean support for all Israeli policies, including settlement policies, etc.

So it's very convenient for the Israel demonization agenda to pour the hatred against "Zionists" when in fact they are talking about 90 percent of all global Jews.

Of course many people support this basic modern "Zionism" who aren't Jewish people, but no group in the world supports it at the levels that Jews do. Which is natural, obviously, because the root of Zionism is a POLITICAL liberation movement about the self determination for the Jewish people.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

Please try to distinguish between anti-Semite and anti-Zionist.

IMO, there is often very little difference. 'Zionist" is just a PC way to call someone a Jew. I know very few Jews who consider themselves "Zionists", but they support Israel's right to exist.

Yes. As Israel DOES exist Zionism has evolved into supporting the right of Israel to exist and defend itself / political self determination for the Jewish people. Roughly about 90 percent of Jews in the world (recently Israel includes more Jews than any other nation) do support that. You're right identifying as a Zionist seems dated for many Jews ... it's more about identification with the state of Israel. (Basically the SAME thing.)

Support for Israel as above does not mean support for all Israeli policies, including settlement policies, etc.

So it's very convenient for the Israel demonization agenda to pour the hatred against "Zionists" when in fact they are talking about 90 percent of all global Jews.

Of course many people support this basic modern "Zionism" who aren't Jewish people, but no group in the world supports it at the levels that Jews do. Which is natural, obviously, because the root of Zionism is a POLITICAL liberation movement about the self determination for the Jewish people.

Before you slander other members conflating anti Zionism with anti Semitism maybe you should research and clarify the definition of Zionist yourself.

Haaretz has an interesting discussion on the subject

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/defining-zionism-the-belief-that-israel-belongs-to-the-entire-jewish-people.premium-1.525064

My POV is this:

I recognize Israel's right to exist as a secular state.

I not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, in which Jews take precedence over other non Jewish citizens.

I do not recognize the Right of Return of Jews from anywhere in the world when they have never even set eyes on the place before, especially when Palestinians are denied the right of return to the homes they were born in and have been ethnically cleansed from.

I would personally like to see a one state solution, where Jews and other religions who are genuinely persecuted can migrate and find a haven as refugees. I would also support work, study (incl religious), retirement, and family reunion residence visas, convertible to full citizenship after x probationary years.

Edited April 20, 2016 by dexterm

[Johnpound46]

There may be moderate voices criticizing Israel somewhere, but not on this forum. There is a bunch of hard core anti-Semites that post obsessively and it is not hard to read between the lines and see where they are really coming from. Some come right out and admit their hatred of Jews and others deny it, but constantly go along with anti-Semitic ideas and "like" some very suspicious posts.

Hi kettle, my name is pot: you're black! What you say may be true to some extent, but there are also a bunch of hard-core Israel supporters here that post just as obsessively and call everyone who dares to criticise Israel "haters" or "anti-semites".

[Gary A]

I would never want to live in a small country where the neighbors come in for the sole purpose of killing people. When the neighbors specifically state that the want Israel wiped off the face of the earth. It is impossible to negotiate with people who have this way of thinking. Only morons think a settlement can be negotiated. Eventually some terrorist lunatics will nuke Israel, likely Iran.

[notmyself]

Israel does not want peace.

[Jingthing]

I would never want to live in a small country where the neighbors come in for the sole purpose of killing people. When the neighbors specifically state that the want Israel wiped off the face of the earth. It is impossible to negotiate with people who have this way of thinking. Only morons think a settlement can be negotiated. Eventually some terrorist lunatics will nuke Israel, likely Iran.

It's possible but I don't think it's inevitable. Iran doing such a thing would doom themselves and of course you can't selectively wipe out ONLY Jews in a nuclear attack.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

The Jews are not the problem in Israel, the Zionists are and they are not all Jews.

Hilarious.

The old we don't hate Jews, we hate Zionists card.

That's a crock.

Every Israel topic here, the Jew hatred is revealed in a CRYSTAL CLEAR way.

You really need to take a look at your attitude toward anyone who voices displeasure with the Israeli governments actions. Along with many other posters on this Forum. I have read some well reasoned, thoughtful, and respectful posts wherein the Government of Israel has been taken to task. These are valid concerns. By pulling the "Hate the Jews" card every time you hear it shows a distinct lack of understanding of the problems, and moreover, how many other people view these actions. To Tar every attack with the hatred card is neither true, fair, or necessary. I do not hate anybody. Why - When you Hate, you Become that which you Hate.

You might think your post is powerful, but the CONTEXT of my post was in response (which you conveniently edited OUT which in this case DISTORTS things) to the Jew hating comment from villageidiot stating this:

By pandering to Israel, American politicians accept this reality and it is translated into their attitude to the banks, which are as Jewish as synagogues, or more so.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

As Christian influence declines in the US...so goes the desire to support Israel against the many Arab states that would destroy the nation and kill all its people...

The Palestinians have proven over the years that they are not negotiating in good faith...have no desire to make peace with Israel...and will not be satisfied until Israel is removed from the face to the earth...

This is nothing new...this war goes back to Biblical times...not going to end...anytime soon...

Yasser Arafat recognized Israel's right to exist as far back as 1988, and repeated it in writing in 1993 at the Oslo Accords. Israel has never reciprocated recognizing the right of Palestinians to self determination in their own viable state. Instead they have simply stolen more land, built more colonies, and dispossessed more Palestinians.

It's pretty clear which side is stonewalling, and that is why Joe Biden is overwhelmingly frustrated with the current israeli government.

As if this nonsense was not shown to be inaccurate multiple times on these topics.

Arafat promised a lot of things, and was less bent on delivering. The required changes in the Palestinian covenant were delayed for years over many a pretext. Even those changes made were contested and the offshoot is that it remains a less than clear issue.

The bogus "Israel has never reciprocated" attempts to imply that Israel was obligated to do so under agreement. Not the case. The usual glossing over the creation of the Palestinian Authority - which did happen via Israel's cooperation.

The Palestinians had their share of saying "no" when they could have said "yes". Trying to paint another picture is misleading, if expected.

Biden's frustration was related to news alluding to Israeli government allowing further construction in the West Bank. This was quickly denied.

Shown to be inaccurate by whom?

The resident Zionists on this forum?

Another hateful attempt to demonize "Zionists" which is basically about 90 percent of the world's Jews that support the right of Israel to exist and defend itself, and for the political self determination of the Jewish people. I realize the "anti-Zionists" (it's CODE) have been very successful in making Zionism a dirty word in a similar way that for so many just the word Jew is a dirty word and always has been (why do you think the Jewish people collectively decided that creating the nation of Israel was NECESSARY?) but that hateful agenda, even though successful, needs to be RESISTED.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[Grouse]

Please try to distinguish between anti-Semite and anti-Zionist.

IMO, there is often very little difference. "Zionist" is often just a PC way to call someone a Jew. I know very few Jews who consider themselves "Zionists", but they support Israel's right to exist.

It is very reassuring that you know a few Jews who are not as bad as the rest.

The Neturai Karta are an interesting lot who seem to predate many of the red in tooth and claw Zionists. Worth reading up on them!

[Jingthing]

A more useful way, and much less HATEFUL way, for people to show opposition to the more right wing aspects of Israeli government policies is to simply refer specifically to those policies. Such as settlement expansion, etc.

Instead of saying you hate or oppose Zionists (which whether you like it or not it seen by most Jews as general Jew hating speech and who are you exactly to say those feelings aren't VALID). Or even say RIGHT WING Zionists. Because there is BROAD POLITICAL SPECTRUM of people that support Israel. J street people support Israel from a leftist POV, and dudes, they are also ZIONISTS in the basic sense.

For those who do oppose SPECIFIC Israeli government policies, you will find very many Jews and very many Israelis who agree with you, including me. On the other hand, I think it's up to Israeli citizens to make their own policies like in any sovereign nation, even when they are unpopular.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[MisterTee]

Israel does not want peace.

Some Israelis do, and their organizations are the ones that should be supported and encouraged.

The radical Zionists who run the country must be removed from power before there can be any hope for peace in the Middle East.

The best way to do that is through non-violent means by boycotting them economically, academically, and culturally, until they stop expanding illegal settlements and grabbing Palestinian land.

That is the way forward and the rest of the world is beginning to realize that... even nitwits like Biden.

[moon0205]

Don't you worry you pretty head Mr Biden, soon enough, you and your ilk will be gone and the stage will be

ready for new person and new thinking, you and your cohorts will retire to write your memoirs how you

and your boss have failed on many levels in foreign policies, I'm sure it will be a best seller.....

It is hard to find voices similar to this, lacking a minimum of political insight and how things work out in the U.S., where forthcoming elections force all parties to bow to that large numbers of U.S citizens of Jewish descent. A big mouth uttering a view similar to how politics have so long been running in the LOS. Politics so often means reaching for the possible under adverse conditions.

[MisterTee]

Don't you worry you pretty head Mr Biden, soon enough, you and your ilk will be gone and the stage will be

ready for new person and new thinking, you and your cohorts will retire to write your memoirs how you

and your boss have failed on many levels in foreign policies, I'm sure it will be a best seller.....

It is hard to find voices similar to this, lacking a minimum of political insight and how things work out in the U.S., where forthcoming elections force all parties to bow to that large numbers of U.S citizens of Jewish descent. A big mouth uttering a view similar to how politics have so long been running in the LOS. Politics so often means reaching for the possible under adverse conditions.

Moonshine...

From start to finish.

[Steely Dan]

If Biden is 'frustrated' with the Israeli government perhaps he should stop sticking his oar in where it's not wanted, the same applies to the EU.

Perhaps it's time for the Countries of the region to sort things out for themselves. After all this is the repeated mantra from many here when the west interferes with every other Country in the region.

[stillbornagain]

J'street are a Soros funded bunch of barely concealed BDS supporters. It won't be long before any Jew who still desires an independent Israel will feel obliged to vote Republican.

http://www.jstreetexposed.com/j-street-s-anti-israel-positions.html

The fact Biden spoke to Jstreet is hugely revealing of the current U.S stance.

38% of American Jews say Israel is sincerely pursuing a peace deal. http://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/comparisons-between-jews-in-israel-and-the-u-s/

It's not Biden and J Street who are wildly out of step with American Jewish opinion. It's you.

[Morch]

Please try to distinguish between anti-Semite and anti-Zionist.

IMO, there is often very little difference. 'Zionist" is just a PC way to call someone a Jew. I know very few Jews who consider themselves "Zionists", but they support Israel's right to exist.

Yes. As Israel DOES exist Zionism has evolved into supporting the right of Israel to exist and defend itself / political self determination for the Jewish people. Roughly about 90 percent of Jews in the world (recently Israel includes more Jews than any other nation) do support that. You're right identifying as a Zionist seems dated for many Jews ... it's more about identification with the state of Israel. (Basically the SAME thing.)

Support for Israel as above does not mean support for all Israeli policies, including settlement policies, etc.

So it's very convenient for the Israel demonization agenda to pour the hatred against "Zionists" when in fact they are talking about 90 percent of all global Jews.

Of course many people support this basic modern "Zionism" who aren't Jewish people, but no group in the world supports it at the levels that Jews do. Which is natural, obviously, because the root of Zionism is a POLITICAL liberation movement about the self determination for the Jewish people.

Before you slander other members conflating anti Zionism with anti Semitism maybe you should research and clarify the definition of Zionist yourself.

Haaretz has an interesting discussion on the subject

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/defining-zionism-the-belief-that-israel-belongs-to-the-entire-jewish-people.premium-1.525064

My POV is this:

I recognize Israel's right to exist as a secular state.

I not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, in which Jews take precedence over other non Jewish citizens.

I do not recognize the Right of Return of Jews from anywhere in the world when they have never even set eyes on the place before, especially when Palestinians are denied the right of return to the homes they were born in and have been ethnically cleansed from.

I would personally like to see a one state solution, where Jews and other religions who are genuinely persecuted can migrate and find a haven as refugees. I would also support work, study (incl religious), retirement, and family reunion residence visas, convertible to full citizenship after x probationary years.

There isn't a single agreed upon definition of Zionism. Not even if you produce a link to such. There will always be someone with a different take. Columns in Haaretz, even by noted authors, are not conclusive or definitive.

Basically, what you recognize is immaterial. Israel exists as it is, warts and all. You may wish that it would change to something resembling an ideal Western country, but there is little chance of that happening anytime soon - external pressure or not. The double standards applied are obvious - no similar expectations from any of Israel's neighbor, including the future Palestinian State. As there is no secular state of Israel (in that there's no full separation of religion and state), your position amounts to rejecting the existence of Israel.

The fantasy one-state touted is not achievable, at least not in anything but the far future. There isn't a good precedent for such peaceful coexistence in the Modern Middle East. Quite the opposite. There is no wide support for this notion among Israelis and Palestinians, more of a Leftist Western concept forced on a Middle East situation. In essence, this too will not be a State of Israel, so once again, what you're supporting is the destruction of Israel.

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.

[Morch]

Israel does not want peace.

Another informed opinion conflating Israel with the current Israeli government, and the public it represents.

From the OP - "In another dig at Netanyahu and his Likud party, Biden singled out for praise Stav Shaffir, a young member of Israel's parliament and a Netanyahu critic from the left wing of Israeli politics."

[Morch]

Please try to distinguish between anti-Semite and anti-Zionist.

IMO, there is often very little difference. "Zionist" is often just a PC way to call someone a Jew. I know very few Jews who consider themselves "Zionists", but they support Israel's right to exist.

It is very reassuring that you know a few Jews who are not as bad as the rest.

The Neturai Karta are an interesting lot who seem to predate many of the red in tooth and claw Zionists. Worth reading up on them!

Interesting as in a bunch of nutters. Not to mention hardcore religious nutters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

[Steely Dan]

J'street are a Soros funded bunch of barely concealed BDS supporters. It won't be long before any Jew who still desires an independent Israel will feel obliged to vote Republican.

http://www.jstreetexposed.com/j-street-s-anti-israel-positions.html

The fact Biden spoke to Jstreet is hugely revealing of the current U.S stance.

38% of American Jews say Israel is sincerely pursuing a peace deal. http://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/comparisons-between-jews-in-israel-and-the-u-s/

It's not Biden and J Street who are wildly out of step with American Jewish opinion. It's you.

I never claimed to be in step with American Jewish opinion. But I would suggest those who actually live in Israel are the only ones who should have a say in Israeli government policy. If American leftist Jews feel strongly enough about it, they should make Aliyah so they can vote accordingly. Though I don't suppose some of our esteemed members would be too happy as they oppose the right of return.

Suffice to say I'd wager any newcomers would swing to the right in but a short time once they see reality first hand, as oppose to what the MSM serve up.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Steely Dan

[Morch]

Israel does not want peace.

Some Israelis do, and their organizations are the ones that should be supported and encouraged.

The radical Zionists who run the country must be removed from power before there can be any hope for peace in the Middle East.

The best way to do that is through non-violent means by boycotting them economically, academically, and culturally, until they stop expanding illegal settlements and grabbing Palestinian land.

That is the way forward and the rest of the world is beginning to realize that... even nitwits like Biden.

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that you and most posters supporting such views, also hold that Western interventions in the Middle East (and specifically, those aimed at regime changes) are the root of all that's evil in the region. Apparently, this is an exception?

How, exactly, would it be possible to selectively boycott only them nasty "radical Zionists" economically, academically and culturally? Or is this another generic BDS appeal?

External threats and pressures tend to unify nations and to encourage defiant extremism. Assuming such a boycott would end with a stable left wing oriented government, holding a popular mandate for painful concessions is a far fetched dream. Seems that little thought is given by proponents of such notions to how the short term will pan out for the populace - Israelis and Palestinians alike. Easy to beat the drums from afar.

[Scott]

More Off-topic posts and replies removed.

[Morch]

If Biden is 'frustrated' with the Israeli government perhaps he should stop sticking his oar in where it's not wanted, the same applies to the EU.

Perhaps it's time for the Countries of the region to sort things out for themselves. After all this is the repeated mantra from many here when the west interferes with every other Country in the region.

I think that the few Billion USA Dollars granted annually, the non-wavering political support on the international front, plus being the Vice President of the World's leading Super Power, sorta gives him the right to be frustrated. The assertion that he is "not wanted" in Israel, is bizarre. Unless one conflates right wing Israeli politics with Israel, that is.

Would countries in the region sorting it out themselves be with or without the USA support of Israel?

[Jingthing]

Please try to distinguish between anti-Semite and anti-Zionist.

IMO, there is often very little difference. "Zionist" is often just a PC way to call someone a Jew. I know very few Jews who consider themselves "Zionists", but they support Israel's right to exist.

It is very reassuring that you know a few Jews who are not as bad as the rest.

The Neturai Karta are an interesting lot who seem to predate many of the red in tooth and claw Zionists. Worth reading up on them!

Interesting as in a bunch of nutters. Not to mention hardcore religious nutters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

Such tiny numbers of them relative to global Jewry. So really irrelevant. They're welcome to their odd beliefs but in reality the "function" they serve is as an anti-Israel propaganda tool for Israel demonizers, even holocaust deniers based on their attendance at the Tehran conference.

[Steely Dan]

If Biden is 'frustrated' with the Israeli government perhaps he should stop sticking his oar in where it's not wanted, the same applies to the EU.

Perhaps it's time for the Countries of the region to sort things out for themselves. After all this is the repeated mantra from many here when the west interferes with every other Country in the region.

I think that the few Billion USA Dollars granted annually, the non-wavering political support on the international front, plus being the Vice President of the World's leading Super Power, sorta gives him the right to be frustrated. The assertion that he is "not wanted" in Israel, is bizarre. Unless one conflates right wing Israeli politics with Israel, that is.

Would countries in the region sorting it out themselves be with or without the USA support of Israel?

Firstly, the US actually gets a return from money invested in Israel.

http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/5767/us-investment-aid-israel

Then we have Iron dome, which Israel are negotiating the sale of to GCC nations. My comments about the U.S apply to the EU as well. Let us just say if the west stopped funding Israel and the Palestinians, it would be hard for Israel, but the Palestinian so called state has been on perpetual life support from external donors and would collapse almost immediately. But leverage is generally called to be used on Israel not the Palestinians.

Secondly, let's face it western intervention in the region has been a serial disaster. From Iraq to Libya to Syria. As Netanyahu opined, there has been progress made between Israel and sundry Arab states, this is more likely to lead to a breakthrough on the Palestinian issue than a Palestinian solution would result in peace between Israel and her neighbors.

Sorry to sound ungrateful, but the current US government has lost leverage in the region and should concentrate their diplomatic efforts elsewhere on my view.

[Morch]

If Biden is 'frustrated' with the Israeli government perhaps he should stop sticking his oar in where it's not wanted, the same applies to the EU.

Perhaps it's time for the Countries of the region to sort things out for themselves. After all this is the repeated mantra from many here when the west interferes with every other Country in the region.

I think that the few Billion USA Dollars granted annually, the non-wavering political support on the international front, plus being the Vice President of the World's leading Super Power, sorta gives him the right to be frustrated. The assertion that he is "not wanted" in Israel, is bizarre. Unless one conflates right wing Israeli politics with Israel, that is.

Would countries in the region sorting it out themselves be with or without the USA support of Israel?

Firstly, the US actually gets a return from money invested in Israel.

http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/5767/us-investment-aid-israel

Then we have Iron dome, which Israel are negotiating the sale of to GCC nations. My comments about the U.S apply to the EU as well. Let us just say if the west stopped funding Israel and the Palestinians, it would be hard for Israel, but the Palestinian so called state has been on perpetual life support from external donors and would collapse almost immediately. But leverage is generally called to be used on Israel not the Palestinians.

Secondly, let's face it western intervention in the region has been a serial disaster. From Iraq to Libya to Syria. As Netanyahu opined, there has been progress made between Israel and sundry Arab states, this is more likely to lead to a breakthrough on the Palestinian issue than a Palestinian solution would result in peace between Israel and her neighbors.

Sorry to sound ungrateful, but the current US government has lost leverage in the region and should concentrate their diplomatic efforts elsewhere on my view.

The USA gets something out of it. Alright. Does it balance the negative political impact? Doubtful.

Would the USA be crippled if those tax Dollars were to be invested elsewhere? Nope.

That the hypothetical withdrawal of USA involvement and support would hurt the Palestinians as well bears little on the effect it would have on Israel. The Palestinians got much less to lose from such an eventuality.

And I wouldn't take everything Netanyahu says or hints at face value, to put it mildly. There's a wide gap between quiet understandings and full cooperation. Even without factoring in the volatile nature of the Middle East.

Not much argument with regard to the current USA administration's Middle East leverage, hence Biden frustration. I bet he feels the same way about many a country in the region. Even so, there is little point to the Israeli government pissing off the administration - coming up elections or not. Risking USA support for domestic political gains is irresponsible behavior for any leadership.

[Steely Dan]

If Biden is 'frustrated' with the Israeli government perhaps he should stop sticking his oar in where it's not wanted, the same applies to the EU.

Perhaps it's time for the Countries of the region to sort things out for themselves. After all this is the repeated mantra from many here when the west interferes with every other Country in the region.

I think that the few Billion USA Dollars granted annually, the non-wavering political support on the international front, plus being the Vice President of the World's leading Super Power, sorta gives him the right to be frustrated. The assertion that he is "not wanted" in Israel, is bizarre. Unless one conflates right wing Israeli politics with Israel, that is.

Would countries in the region sorting it out themselves be with or without the USA support of Israel?

Firstly, the US actually gets a return from money invested in Israel.

http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/5767/us-investment-aid-israel

Then we have Iron dome, which Israel are negotiating the sale of to GCC nations. My comments about the U.S apply to the EU as well. Let us just say if the west stopped funding Israel and the Palestinians, it would be hard for Israel, but the Palestinian so called state has been on perpetual life support from external donors and would collapse almost immediately. But leverage is generally called to be used on Israel not the Palestinians.

Secondly, let's face it western intervention in the region has been a serial disaster. From Iraq to Libya to Syria. As Netanyahu opined, there has been progress made between Israel and sundry Arab states, this is more likely to lead to a breakthrough on the Palestinian issue than a Palestinian solution would result in peace between Israel and her neighbors.

Sorry to sound ungrateful, but the current US government has lost leverage in the region and should concentrate their diplomatic efforts elsewhere on my view.

The USA gets something out of it. Alright. Does it balance the negative political impact? Doubtful.

Would the USA be crippled if those tax Dollars were to be invested elsewhere? Nope.

That the hypothetical withdrawal of USA involvement and support would hurt the Palestinians as well bears little on the effect it would have on Israel. The Palestinians got much less to lose from such an eventuality.

And I wouldn't take everything Netanyahu says or hints at face value, to put it mildly. There's a wide gap between quiet understandings and full cooperation. Even without factoring in the volatile nature of the Middle East.

Not much argument with regard to the current USA administration's Middle East leverage, hence Biden frustration. I bet he feels the same way about many a country in the region. Even so, there is little point to the Israeli government pissing off the administration - coming up elections or not. Risking USA support for domestic political gains is irresponsible behavior for any leadership.

As the saying goes 'it takes two to tango', the U.S administration was not hiding it's eagerness to be rid of Netanyahu at the last Israeli election. None of this is wise on either side. There is a wider issue here though, namely the U.S distancing itself from old allies in the Middle East coincident with a rapprochement of sorts with Iran. I will confine my predictions at this point to observing this created a strong mutual interest between Israel and some Sunni Arab states. I doubt Riyadh are taking much heed of U.S wishes at present as you alluded to in your post.

The 'unintended' consequences of U.S foreign policy shifts have developed a momentum of their own.

[Morch]

As the saying goes 'it takes two to tango', the U.S administration was not hiding it's eagerness to be rid of Netanyahu at the last Israeli election. None of this is wise on either side. There is a wider issue here though, namely the U.S distancing itself from old allies in the Middle East coincident with a rapprochement of sorts with Iran. I will confine my predictions at this point to observing this created a strong mutual interest between Israel and some Sunni Arab states. I doubt Riyadh are taking much heed of U.S wishes at present as you alluded to in your post.

The 'unintended' consequences of U.S foreign policy shifts have developed a momentum of their own.

If memory serves, it was Netanyahu all but openly lobbying for Romney, and later on having his speech on the Iran deal. Someone led this dance, and it backfired.

In terms of USA funds directed at Israel, this is one of most generous administrations ever, and nothing changed with regard to the USA's international political support of Israel. Netanyahu ought to be grateful, instead he pushes the limits more. I doubt that it is wise, I'm sure it is not polite.

[dexterm]

Sorry thread full..

Morch wrote..

There isn't a single agreed upon definition of Zionism. Not even if you produce a link to such. There will always be someone with a different take. Columns in Haaretz, even by noted authors, are not conclusive or definitive.

Basically, what you recognize is immaterial. Israel exists as it is, warts and all. You may wish that it would change to something resembling an ideal Western country, but there is little chance of that happening anytime soon - external pressure or not. The double standards applied are obvious - no similar expectations from any of Israel's neighbor, including the future Palestinian State. As there is no secular state of Israel (in that there's no full separation of religion and state), your position amounts to rejecting the existence of Israel.

The fantasy one-state touted is not achievable, at least not in anything but the far future. There isn't a good precedent for such peaceful coexistence in the Modern Middle East. Quite the opposite. There is no wide support for this notion among Israelis and Palestinians, more of a Leftist Western concept forced on a Middle East situation. In essence, this too will not be a State of Israel, so once again, what you're supporting is the destruction of Israel.

As usual a lot of words, but little substance...more of well this is the way things are until they change; lets just muddle through without realizing where we are going. This is the same attitude that Joe Biden is frustrated with.

In that Israel controls the lives of everyone in historic Palestine, it would appear my fantasy one state already exists. Joe Biden is asking Israel: so what do you plan to do with all the people under your control?

"He said those policies were moving Israel toward a "one-state reality" — meaning a single state for Palestinians and Israelis in which, eventually, Israeli Jews will no longer be the majority.

"That reality is dangerous," Biden added."

I have given my definition of Zionism and I dont think it is too far removed from its first proponents Nathan Birnbaum and Theodor Herzl. On those grounds I do indeed reject the existence of the current Zionist regime in Israel. I think it is racist/religionist, colonialist, supremacist and evil....as are all those who support a Jewish State and the Jewish Right of Return to a place they have never seen before, while denying those same rights to Palestinians who were born there. I notice you dont give your own definition. Is that all in the too hard basket as well?

I will stick with my clearly defined understanding of the word, and perhaps Israeli apologists can respect that without thinking it is a code word for something else.

The reason Israel cops so much flak is that it is savable. It purports to be a modern democratic country. I want it to ditch the hypocrisy and be one. We can then work on its neighbors, who may take note of the civilized country next door. At the moment they quite rightly can use Israel to point out US double standards when it comes to freedom and human rights.

Edited April 21, 2016 by dexterm