Thailand's military government cracks down on opponents

[Holy Cinema]

And in each of those you have the right and the ability to vote them out. It's a flawed system but it largely stumbles along.

I was raised in the UK, so I do understand your utter faith in the democratic-system, perhaps it's only when you have your own right-to-vote removed (for daring to live elsewhere for 15-years) or wishes ignored (just ask any UKIP-voter in the last election), that you start to see how broken it has become. As Woody Guthrie said, in the Ballad of Pretty Boy Floyd, "some will rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain-pen", but that's a discussion best left for the Home Country sub-forum.

Nor do I support the current junta these days, for me they lost their integrity when they failed to return power to democracy by the end of last year, as previously promised. Looking back to PM-Sorayud, he did at least keep that promise, although nobody really gave him much credit for it back in 2007.

But, leaving aside for one moment Thailand's very own serial political-family, a democracy led by the likes of Suthep or Chalerm, Chavalit or Newin or the late Banharn, is also pretty bad, for all that it is elected. And I blame those individual people for that fact, not just the military & coups. Perhaps I ought to be more optimistic, and hope that politicians like them can slowly reform democracy, as you say.

I wish there were a way to press the re-set button on Thai democracy, with a fresh set of parties & politicians, but I don't see one. And it certainly doesn't involve a shonky new constitution, rammed down peoples throats, without any real discussion allowed.

Perhaps the politicians should have been more willing to help with the re-write ? At least there is a referendum, that's progress of a sort, the gradual recognition that any new constitution demands validation, by the people & voters themselves.

UKIP are the UK's version of the Democrats here, a charming and charismatic leader, who talks a great deal of sense, but in the end, generations of steadfast support for the older parties remains, they make talk a good fight, but they will never be a party that will govern a country.

There IS a button that can be pressed in Thailand, it's called removing the absolute power from the Military and have them accountable to the laws of the country like everyone else, and for them to start respecting the democratic process, no matter how flawed or imperfect it is. 19 coups since the 1930's tells you who the main agitators and opponents of a democratic country are.

They have given themselves a get out of jail free card, despite a previous amnesty bill being the catalyst for where we are today... there is simply NO difference to either of those bills,

The Juntas amnesty goes all the way to the top, they're protected by their own people in high circles, but there's simply no knowing of what will happen when the broom sweeps clean. Hence why their doing everything they can to hold onto power for as long as they can. They're doing everything in their power, pretty similar to what Yinglucks Regime were doing.

So yes, there is a button, it's called accountability to the Government who should also be accountable to the people.

15 Principles of democracy were thrown about by a junta poster boy for the past 2 years, in that the PTP were lucky to adhere to one, well that's one more than the Junta currently achieve.

The country is in a bigger mess now than it was 2 years ago, and it's not going to get any better, any time soon.

"15 Principles of democracy were thrown about by a junta poster boy for the past 2 years..."

No they weren't. djjamie repeatedly made an "x principles of democracy" claim (I don't recall the number), but never stated what they were or where they came from. But djjamie is like that.

It was 15

[JAG]

And in each of those you have the right and the ability to vote them out. It's a flawed system but it largely stumbles along.

I was raised in the UK, so I do understand your utter faith in the democratic-system, perhaps it's only when you have your own right-to-vote removed (for daring to live elsewhere for 15-years) or wishes ignored (just ask any UKIP-voter in the last election), that you start to see how broken it has become. As Woody Guthrie said, in the Ballad of Pretty Boy Floyd, "some will rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain-pen", but that's a discussion best left for the Home Country sub-forum.

Nor do I support the current junta these days, for me they lost their integrity when they failed to return power to democracy by the end of last year, as previously promised. Looking back to PM-Sorayud, he did at least keep that promise, although nobody really gave him much credit for it back in 2007.

But, leaving aside for one moment Thailand's very own serial political-family, a democracy led by the likes of Suthep or Chalerm, Chavalit or Newin or the late Banharn, is also pretty bad, for all that it is elected. And I blame those individual people for that fact, not just the military & coups. Perhaps I ought to be more optimistic, and hope that politicians like them can slowly reform democracy, as you say.

I wish there were a way to press the re-set button on Thai democracy, with a fresh set of parties & politicians, but I don't see one. And it certainly doesn't involve a shonky new constitution, rammed down peoples throats, without any real discussion allowed.

Perhaps the politicians should have been more willing to help with the re-write ? At least there is a referendum, that's progress of a sort, the gradual recognition that any new constitution demands validation, by the people & voters themselves.

UKIP are the UK's version of the Democrats here, a charming and charismatic leader, who talks a great deal of sense, but in the end, generations of steadfast support for the older parties remains, they make talk a good fight, but they will never be a party that will govern a country.

There IS a button that can be pressed in Thailand, it's called removing the absolute power from the Military and have them accountable to the laws of the country like everyone else, and for them to start respecting the democratic process, no matter how flawed or imperfect it is. 19 coups since the 1930's tells you who the main agitators and opponents of a democratic country are.

They have given themselves a get out of jail free card, despite a previous amnesty bill being the catalyst for where we are today... there is simply NO difference to either of those bills,

The Juntas amnesty goes all the way to the top, they're protected by their own people in high circles, but there's simply no knowing of what will happen when the broom sweeps clean. Hence why their doing everything they can to hold onto power for as long as they can. They're doing everything in their power, pretty similar to what Yinglucks Regime were doing.

So yes, there is a button, it's called accountability to the Government who should also be accountable to the people.

15 Principles of democracy were thrown about by a junta poster boy for the past 2 years, in that the PTP were lucky to adhere to one, well that's one more than the Junta currently achieve.

The country is in a bigger mess now than it was 2 years ago, and it's not going to get any better, any time soon.

"15 Principles of democracy were thrown about by a junta poster boy for the past 2 years..."

No they weren't. djjamie repeatedly made an "x principles of democracy" claim (I don't recall the number), but never stated what they were or where they came from. But djjamie is like that.

It was 15

By the way, did any of us ever get a reply to all our questions as to what they were?

I thought not...

[Ricardo]

<snip for brevity>

At least there is a referendum, that's progress

You may be getting ahead of yourself - it hasn't happened yet.

The junta was perfectly happy with the endorsement of the 1997 Constitution without a referendum.

Then in 2014 the junta abolished a previous junta-written 2011 constitution that was accepted in a referendum.

If the 2015 draft constitution is rejected in the referendum, the NCPO has the option to simply adopt it without another referendum.

There was a different government, way back when the 1997 Constitution was adopted, but using referenda to endorse and legitimise any major constitutional change is an improvement, one of the few IMO. I've always thought (and said) that, over the years.

I believe the previous junta-written one was back in 2007, under PM-Sorayud, not 2011 ... before the December-2007 election, which resulted in PM-Samak's PPP-led coalition.

I doubt that the latest one will be outstanding, whether or not it's endorsed, but if it helps them progress back to democracy again, then I guess it's arguably better than stalemate, then again the elephant-in-the-room event has yet to happen smoothly.

[heybruce]

I was raised in the UK, so I do understand your utter faith in the democratic-system, perhaps it's only when you have your own right-to-vote removed (for daring to live elsewhere for 15-years) or wishes ignored (just ask any UKIP-voter in the last election), that you start to see how broken it has become. As Woody Guthrie said, in the Ballad of Pretty Boy Floyd, "some will rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain-pen", but that's a discussion best left for the Home Country sub-forum.

Nor do I support the current junta these days, for me they lost their integrity when they failed to return power to democracy by the end of last year, as previously promised. Looking back to PM-Sorayud, he did at least keep that promise, although nobody really gave him much credit for it back in 2007.

But, leaving aside for one moment Thailand's very own serial political-family, a democracy led by the likes of Suthep or Chalerm, Chavalit or Newin or the late Banharn, is also pretty bad, for all that it is elected. And I blame those individual people for that fact, not just the military & coups. Perhaps I ought to be more optimistic, and hope that politicians like them can slowly reform democracy, as you say.

I wish there were a way to press the re-set button on Thai democracy, with a fresh set of parties & politicians, but I don't see one. And it certainly doesn't involve a shonky new constitution, rammed down peoples throats, without any real discussion allowed.

Perhaps the politicians should have been more willing to help with the re-write ? At least there is a referendum, that's progress of a sort, the gradual recognition that any new constitution demands validation, by the people & voters themselves.

UKIP are the UK's version of the Democrats here, a charming and charismatic leader, who talks a great deal of sense, but in the end, generations of steadfast support for the older parties remains, they make talk a good fight, but they will never be a party that will govern a country.

There IS a button that can be pressed in Thailand, it's called removing the absolute power from the Military and have them accountable to the laws of the country like everyone else, and for them to start respecting the democratic process, no matter how flawed or imperfect it is. 19 coups since the 1930's tells you who the main agitators and opponents of a democratic country are.

They have given themselves a get out of jail free card, despite a previous amnesty bill being the catalyst for where we are today... there is simply NO difference to either of those bills,

The Juntas amnesty goes all the way to the top, they're protected by their own people in high circles, but there's simply no knowing of what will happen when the broom sweeps clean. Hence why their doing everything they can to hold onto power for as long as they can. They're doing everything in their power, pretty similar to what Yinglucks Regime were doing.

So yes, there is a button, it's called accountability to the Government who should also be accountable to the people.

15 Principles of democracy were thrown about by a junta poster boy for the past 2 years, in that the PTP were lucky to adhere to one, well that's one more than the Junta currently achieve.

The country is in a bigger mess now than it was 2 years ago, and it's not going to get any better, any time soon.

"15 Principles of democracy were thrown about by a junta poster boy for the past 2 years..."

No they weren't. djjamie repeatedly made an "x principles of democracy" claim (I don't recall the number), but never stated what they were or where they came from. But djjamie is like that.

It was 15

I'll take your word on it. Any idea what they were? A quick internet search leads to several lists of principles of democracy, but djjamie never would identify his list. Kind of makes me think he had little confidence in it.

[Holy Cinema]

I've seen a few "Pillars" of democracy, I'm sure I found 12-13 principles, but never 15.

best guess is he knows there's not 15, and the poor saps like us who fell for it have been going bat shit crazy trying to find them all.. the joke was on him, but now he's silent.. its great hahahaha

[JAG]

How does this end? The longer these obstinate, bigoted bullies cling onto power, the bloodier it could be. Lid can only stay on the pot for so long.

Who would have thought that people could be stupid enough to believe after 18 miserably failed coups, the 19th would be successful. Clueless!

Yes, better to put one's faith in all those honest principled politicians instead, they'd never rip off the people .... erm ... I think I just spotted the flaw in that plan ... anyone have any decent alternatives to offer ?

Yes, allowing democracy to grow and develop democratic institutions as has worked repeatedly around the planet, including several increasingly strong Asian democracies. Don't you understand that the coups are the reason the politicians are so flawed?

"the coups are the reason the politicians are so flawed"

Oddly enough, i thought that the reason most local politicians are so flawed, was that they're mostly incompetent or inherently-corrupt individuals, who only succeed if they buy into the corrupt democratic political-parties' way of operating, am I then wrong ?

For example one fairly-recent elected-PM here actually declared that democracy was only a useful tool, not really an objective, and he expected his political-party to remain in-power for at least the next twenty years, his autocratic management-style ('I make all the decisions anyway') and suppression of democratic institutions appeared to me to be a step in the wrong direction.

It may be cynical of me, but I see relatively few strong democracies around the planet either, I certainly wouldn't include the UK (my country of origin) or the USA (vide the current presidential-nomination campaign) as shining examples. And they can't blame the coups for that.

Well as far as the USA is concerned, I don't much like Donald "all Mexicans are rapists" Trump, or Hilary " I had to run for cover at Sarajevo airport" Clinton, but the voters of the USA are currently choosing their candidates, and will ultimately vote to select one as their President, unpalatable as that may be. Seems fairly democratic to me! As far as the UK is concerned, well probably the biggest decision that we will make in the first half of this century is pending, and we're going to vote to make it. I'm sure that whether the UK votes to leave or stay in the EU, a lot of people will be most disgruntled with the result. That's one of the results of democracy.

Many (including quite a few here) likewise find the Thai electorates choices unpalatable. If their choices behave in such a way as to alienate the electorate then they should be able to vote them out. It is interesting, and perhaps rather relevant that the last two coups occurred when democratically elected politicians, facing significant opposition, had called elections, to allow the electorate to decide whether or not they could continue in office. The military took away that choice. Twice. I wonder why?

Edited April 30, 2016 by JAG

[JAG]

Why I don't understand is where is djjamie, smedly and the very few left on TVF that should be here supporting their mates with the guns telling the rest of the country what they can and can not say????? You fellas ready to admit ya got it spectacularly WRONG???????????

They have been digging their holes so deep with white-washing the actions of the junta that they probably make a new account with a totally different name to start over again as soon as even they cannot stand their own rhetoric anymore.

jamie did compare to Prayuth to Thaksin in one of the threads (I asked him if he was ok). Smedly still ignores direct and difficult answer questions about this regime and "but Thaksins" his way out of everything.

But but but.... Smedley plugs away at it so bravely that a cynic might consider that he deserves the George Cross which he seems to have awarded himself!