So just how good are Thai academics?

[Fabricus]

Important Warning

This thread contains no Thai-bashing and will attempt to portray Thais in a positive light. If you find this type of content offensive or disturbing, please stop reading now. Thank you for your attention.

How good are Thai academics?

Everyone knows that Sheikh Ahmed Al Quom and his retinue arrived in Ayuthaya in the early 1600s. Sheikh Ahmed forged strategic and political allegiances with Kings Songtham and Phrasat Thong, and rose to the position of Phra Khlang. His successors fell out of favor during the latter part of King Narai's reign (mainly due to Constance Phaulkon's machinations), but retained a grasp on power during King Phetracha's subsequent regime.

When King Rama IV died in 1868, his successor, Chulalongkhorn, was deemed too young to accede the throne. A regent was appointed. His name was Chaophraya Si Suriyawong, a descendant of Sheikh Ahmed. Present-day descendants of Sheikh Ahmed include Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the Commander-in-Chief of the Royal Thai Army who led the military coup that ousted former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawattra in 2006. Another worthy successor is Dr Tej Bunnag, Thailand's former ambassador to China, France and the US, Thailand's Permanent Representative to UNESCO, and the King's Private Secretary until 2008. Dr Tej Bunnag completed his doctoral thesis at St Antony's College, Oxford University, England, in 1969. Here is a direct link to the thesis:

The provincial administration of Siam from 1892 to 1915

I invite you to read it. Do remember that English is not Dr Bunnag's first language.

My opinion

It's superb. It's not easy to believe that English is Dr Bunnag's second language. His grasp of our language, along with his report's structure and presentation, is extremely impressive.

Next

If I get time, there are two former Professors of History at Chulalongkhorn I'd like to discuss: Kullada Kesboonchoo Mead and Dr Dhiravat Na Pombejra. More to follow.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Fabricus

[Junkyarddog]

Very interesting reading. I love history.

[mydee]

Please Do and could you also Charnvit Kasetsiri whose "Studies in Thai and South East Asian Histories" is a benchmark in understanding Thai Hisory

[atyclb]

to single out exceptional cases as representatives of "thai academics" in general is misleading and highly inaccurate and does not reflect the average normal population.

[smotherb]

to single out exceptional cases as representatives of "thai academics" in general is misleading and highly inaccurate and does not reflect the average normal population.

In all fairness, academic accolades cannot be applied in general to any nation's peoples; so why the Thai bashing?

My question for Fabricus, what's your point? Are you simply saying there are intelligent well-educated Thais? Are you trying to educate the TV posting throngs? Are you simply thinking about this and wanted to share? Note the lack of response in 20 hours.

[Fabricus]

Very interesting reading. I love history.

Let me show you something. About one hundred years ago Prince Damrong took a keen interest in Siam's history and commissioned a five-volume set called Records of the Relations between Siam and Foreign Countries in the 17th Century.

I managed to track down all five PDFs and upload them to my account on ARCHIVE.ORG. Here are the URLs:

1. Volume 1: 1606-1632

2. Volume 2: 1634-1680

3. Volume 3: 1680-1685

4. Volume 4: 1686-1687

5. Volume 5: 1688-1700

The PDFs are transcripts of original memos, letters and journal entries written by British and Dutch East India Company traders in the 1600s. All records pertain to Thailand; collectively they form one of the best primary sources for Thailand's interactions with Europe in the seventeenth century I'm aware of.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Fabricus

[crazydrummerpauly]

How good are Thai academics? Pretty meaningless question, or at best a question seeking meaningless answers. Goof for what ? Good in comparison to whom ? The central question before deciding would have to be 'How good are Thai academics' English ?' Because if they cannot read all the sources written in English i don't see how they could ever study viewpoints outside of the conventional Thai one. And i don't think you can be so trusting that their English is good because the text you cite is readable - never hear about ghost writing translators ?

[crazydrummerpauly]

SO where did the mysterious 'Sheikh Ahmed Al Quom' come from ? Somewhere very sandy presumably.

[Fabricus]

Kullada Kesboonchoo Mead
Kullada Kesboonchoo Mead teaches at the Faculty of Political Sciences, Chulalongkhorn University, Bangkok; she is the author of The Rise and Decline of Thai Absolutism.

IMO there is one very important paragraph in this book. It's so important, in fact, that I've taken a screenshot from Google books and reproduced it below. For a very long time it was thought that Siam under King Phetracha (the successor to King Narai) implemented a xenophobic regime that excluded westerners. This is simply not true. It was a view promulgated in part by western historians to support their Euro-centric interpretations of events that transpired towards the end of the seventeenth century.

To understand why Siam "switched off" from Europe after the death of Narai in 1688 and focused more on forging trade links and political ties with China, learn about:

1. The French Siege of Bangkok, 1688

2. The British Declaration of War on Siam, 1687

[Fabricus]

SO where did the mysterious 'Sheikh Ahmed Al Quom' come from ? Somewhere very sandy presumably.

No one knows for sure. Java is a possibility: Persian traders were driven out by the arrival of the VOC in the late 1590s / early 1600s.

A key issue here is that Sheikh Ahmed was a Shiite whereas Sultan Sulaiman Shah (the son of Dato Mogol, a Persian trader who left Java in the early 1600s and settled in the deep south of Thailand) was Sunni.

Most people believe Sheikh Ahmed arrived in Ayuthaya from Persia via the overland, trans-peninsular route from Mergui / Tenasserim. His tomb is in Ayuthaya, btw.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Fabricus

[jesimps]

Think five-year olds with super brains but with the common sense of five-year olds.

[atyclb]

to single out exceptional cases as representatives of "thai academics" in general is misleading and highly inaccurate and does not reflect the average normal population.

In all fairness, academic accolades cannot be applied in general to any nation's peoples; so why the Thai bashing?

My question for Fabricus, what's your point? Are you simply saying there are intelligent well-educated Thais? Are you trying to educate the TV posting throngs? Are you simply thinking about this and wanted to share? Note the lack of response in 20 hours.

what you say is true but do you not perceive any deficiencies in general such as low standardized testing scores even in their native language, low/failing scores when testing their native language competency. general lack of critical thinking. critical thinking is the baseline foundation for just about any meaningful scientific innovative achievement.

i have thai friends that i would consider high function and brilliant in any country but the reality is the % of population like this is quite small. my friends also complain about the same lack of thinking and mindset.

[smotherb]

to single out exceptional cases as representatives of "thai academics" in general is misleading and highly inaccurate and does not reflect the average normal population.

In all fairness, academic accolades cannot be applied in general to any nation's peoples; so why the Thai bashing?

My question for Fabricus, what's your point? Are you simply saying there are intelligent well-educated Thais? Are you trying to educate the TV posting throngs? Are you simply thinking about this and wanted to share? Note the lack of response in 20 hours.

what you say is true but do you not perceive any deficiencies in general such as low standardized testing scores even in their native language, low/failing scores when testing their native language competency. general lack of critical thinking. critical thinking is the baseline foundation for just about any meaningful scientific innovative achievement.

i have thai friends that i would consider high function and brilliant in any country but the reality is the % of population like this is quite small. my friends also complain about the same lack of thinking and mindset.

I have lived and worked in several countries--Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kuwait, and Lebanon. In all of them, I have heard my mostly western colleagues utter similar words about the local people. Do you not think cultural differences play a large part in the perception of at least common sense and critical thinking? In all of these countries, the state-run institutions like schools, universities, technological and scientific laboratories, etc., suffer from inept and corrupt government oversight and lack any meaningful checks and balances system. Could these mishandled institutions somehow be a causal agent for the perceived/factual deficiencies you suggest, and not simply be an inherent absence within the local individuals’ capabilities?

[StreetCowboy]

I would expect Thai academics working in the field to rank as world-class experts without equal in the specific topic of Thai history.

SC

[marko kok prong]

Biggest problem for them is they were never colonized by Britain,if they had been the country would be a far more progressive place,like Singapore,or Malaysia,today of note what has Thailand given the world

1 a great cuisine sure up with the top 5 in the world

2 Beautiful and very sexy women,who generally a few drinks will crack

3 biggest amount of ladyboys.

4???????

[StreetCowboy]

Biggest problem for them is they were never colonized by Britain,if they had been the country would be a far more progressive place,like Singapore,or Malaysia, ...

Or Zambia, or Bangladesh

[Saan]

Biggest problem for them is they were never colonized by Britain,if they had been the country would be a far more progressive place,like Singapore,or Malaysia, ...

Or Zambia, or Bangladesh

And much of the Middle East nightmare can be laid at Britain's feet and don't forget the Indian/Pakistan border problems that have dragged on since partition. I could go on.

[Fabricus]

I would expect Thai academics working in the field to rank as world-class experts without equal in the specific topic of Thai history.

SC

I missed this earlier. I'll tell you some of what I know and you can ponder things by yourself.

Back in the 1920s there were British consulates in Thailand: there was one in Songkhla and another in Chiang Mai. The Chiang Mai office was headed by W.A.R. Wood, the author of what was apparently the first English-language history of Thailand. And here it is:

https://archive.org/stream/historyofsiam035038mbp#page/n4/mode/1up

On page 23 Mr Wood explains that "the principal difficulty which confronts the writer who tries to compile a history of Siam is the almost entire absence of reliable native chronicles". He adds that most of the so-called Royal Chronicles of Ayuthaya were lost when the the city was sacked by the Burmese in 1767-1767. It was during this attack, of course, that Sultan Sulaiman Shah's "Arabian cannon" was captured and taken to Mandalay.

===

Dhirawat na-Pombejra, former Professor of history at Chulalongkhorn University, wrote his doctoral thesis, A Political History of Siam under the Prasatthong Dynasty1629-1688, at London's School of Oriental and Asian Studies. You can download it from the British Library's Electronic Thesis Online Service (ETHOS).

On page 2 the guy states that his sources are mostly Dutch East India Company records. This may seem odd. It's logical to assume he would have opted for English sources: in the early 1600s the British East India Company set up their regional hub in what is basically my GF's back garden (Singora / Sangora) and kept detailed accounts of everything at Fort St George, Madras. But things didn't work out as intended for the Brits. By the early 1620s they'd quit Singora and Patania, and didn't recommence trade with Siam until the 1660s/1670s.

The Dutch, however, maintained comprehensive accounts of commercial activities with Siam throughout the 1600s. They kept daily records -- the Dagh-register gehouden int Casteel Batavia -- all written in glorious 17th century Dutch.

===

What we have, then, is a Thai guy -- Dhirawat na-Pombejra -- who's based at London's SOAS in 1984 (ie, before the internet) and forced to read Dutch records only accessible in Holland. This takes some doing. Have you ever tried reading 17th century Dutch texts? I bet you haven't. I have, and they're very hard.

I guess my point is that I do find the guy impressive. What he did wasn't easy. Sure, you and I may have been able to the same, but I do feel it's worth stressing that Dhirawat na-Pombejra, along with others of his ilk, is top notch and deserves to be ranked alongside some of the world's best.

[NativeSon360]

to single out exceptional cases as representatives of "thai academics" in general is misleading and highly inaccurate and does not reflect the average normal population.

Indeed, it is most misleading!

Edited July 3, 2016 by NativeSon360

[Fabricus]

to single out exceptional cases as representatives of "thai academics" in general is misleading and highly inaccurate and does not reflect the average normal population.

Indeed, it is most misleading!

PS. How (or why) do you change your username? Last time we chatted you were Tuskegee Ben.