Thai NRSA committee on road safety wants new strategies to tackle road accidents

[Lickey]

Every year in our town at te Loy Kratong festival the local police have a big board up covered in pics of fatal road accidents, if you stop to look at it a cop comes along with a cane and points to the worst ones,, heads shattered by truck wheels ect blood all over road, disgusting!!!!

And im thinking,what the hell are you smiling for?? this is your fault for not enforcing the law, and not going to the local schools to show the kids a basic road lesson,, bloody sad i reckon!!!

[dhream]

Driverless cars. Ban two wheels. But replace with the 'leaning' Toyota trike. Get mass transit nation wide. Problem solved.

[CarolJadzia]

Yes as expected, same old five E's answers, same old "Enforcement is the answer" drivel.

Same old same old.

Enforcement is always rolled out as the answer to all ills. Only it does not work! It's only the enforcers and those blinkered by correspondence bias that think it's the answer.

If speed limit enforcement was the answer how come most of my friends who I have ridden with for many years now ride 200 mph sports bikes, rather than the "ton Up" bikes we started on thirty to forty years ago? We ride UK roads and very few of my friends stick to limits. It's a farce. That is not what keeps us safe. The UK has a proper network of training instructors. Everyone who uses a motorised vehicle on the road has to take real world interactive training in order to get to test standard. That is what is totally missing in Thailand.

Speed is actually a counter indicator to pedestrian safety on UK roads. Accidents happen at low speeds in congested areas, same as Thailand, it's where there are lots of vehicles that we see lots of accidents. But vehicles need clear roads to speed! UK Speed Enforcement is for revenue collection purposes only!

The Thai driving and riding tests are not even to the standard we would expect from a 16 year old rider on the first day of training, we would at least expect a two hour road ride from them before even validating their licence to ride a scooter on the road. To take a novice to full test standard usually takes another four to five days on road training, even then there is a high test fail rate. Test examiners want to see road users deal with real world situations, not an off road simulated road layout.

We are challenging the enforcement approach at international level with "Safety II" thinking.

This is familiar to anyone who rides a Japanese bike as it's based on the Japanese Kaizen thinking based on continues improvement. It is the approach they use to build bikes and also the basis for all Japanese motorcycle training schools that are springing up in Thailand. Only they are running into snags now as well, they teach people to ride to a system where people usually follow the rules. The Japanese approach has now got to learn how to apply itself in a new environment, that process is currently underway.

The situation in Thailand can improve, but it must be in a unique way to address Thai issues, relying on outdated enforcement ideas will continue to fail in the same way it has done for many years in Thailand and elsewhere.

Thai Safe Rider

[Moonmoon]

well I am from Singapore and the driving lessons we had in driving schools are very well taught always emphasising on safety and good road conduct though expensive.

I always wonder how are thai driving lessons and tests conducted as most Thais I know don't even know what or where their blind spots are.

Most dont even know the safety distance as I almost get tailgated every day I am on the road.

I am confused cos on a social level when dealing with a Thai or Thais, everyone can be so polite soft spoken and nice but the moment they get on the wheels the behaviour is totally different lol.

how about trying to incorporated nice Thai manners onto nice Thai traffic behaviour?

[Ceruhe]

I always wonder how are thai driving lessons and tests conducted as most Thais I know don't even know what or where their blind spots are.

Well, you get in the car with somebody else that "knows how to drive" or rather, knows how manual works....and off they go to learn, eh, pass on exactly that mechanic....that's about it.

When I got here, I took like 2 hours worth of lessons with some random....reputable (lol?) driving school pretty much to learn manual, otherwise been driving for years....automatic.

Turned out to be pretty much a waste of time. Couldn't drive faster than like 20 km/h without the dude falling into some worrysome state of us sliding off the road because we didn't have tires but slicks. Yea well, wasted time and money, after we got our own car then and I messed around with that a little on my own it clicked fast enough and all the explanations I've gotten about "slowly let go the clutch and give it a tap" wereall but lies to me.

As for getting the DL....had our international permit simply converted to a Thai DL after passing 2 test...telling the color on a traffic light (in random order! albeit without explanation to what they mean, phew!) and then some, I'm not even sure that to call that, depth peception test or something, aka you sit there and get to sync up some random stick that you can move forward/backwards until you align it with a line. Think I utterly failed that as I had no point of relation to it to be able to tell the distance....I wasn't "smart enough" to simply move my head around as I would in the car, but didn't in the test as I didn't know if that was a thing or not.

I am confused cos on a social level when dealing with a Thai or Thais, everyone can be so polite soft spoken and nice but the moment they get on the wheels the behaviour is totally different lol.

Guilty of that myself, the onyl thing that gets me moody is sweating and my Tshirt being soaked in the wrong places. This does not apply to driving though, I can get into the car perfectly calm, sit there only trying to get out of my parking spot (provided I couldn't dash) and flipping my shit in 1 second flat.

But that personality change thing behind the wheels seems to be an international thing though, something about it that makes one irritated fast. If I had to speculate, it's the (un)concious awaereness of driving being crazy dangerous on so many levels and seeing people constantly making mistakes or being out of line somehow correlating to your own safety being compromised on. People are scared of flying and stuff but have nearly no qualms about driving in a car, despite planes being the safest travel method that we have by levels of magnitude.

[CarolJadzia]

But that personality change thing behind the wheels seems to be an international thing though, something about it that makes one irritated fast. If I had to speculate, it's the (un)concious awaereness of driving being crazy dangerous on so many levels and seeing people constantly making mistakes or being out of line somehow correlating to your own safety being compromised on. People are scared of flying and stuff but have nearly no qualms about driving in a car, despite planes being the safest travel method that we have by levels of magnitude.

You answer your own point in the comment!

That is the problem with the current international system. People are only worried about passing their test, however hard or difficult it is, they are only interested in getting a licence. Not learning to drive or ride.

Then we are into a world of finger pointing and blame. "We have a full licence, we are the experts now, look at all those horrible nasty law breakers not abiding by the rules, driving badly and having all the accidents". The whole system is backed up by enforcers and Insurance companies whose purpose is to find blame. Always someone else's fault.

I was the same, Thirty years of teaching people to follow the rules, either for UK test or Advanced Police Roadcraft. All based on following the rules.

I have suffered road rage from others and dished it out myself. We have been conditioned to do so.

It was only when I was making sure I was up to date a couple of years ago in order to give advice to Thai Expat friends that I was converted to new thinking. It's the hardest thing about it. Moving beyond the blame game. But when you do it's like unplugging from the matrix.

[Winniedapu]

Yes as expected, same old five E's answers, same old "Enforcement is the answer" drivel.

Same old same old.

Enforcement is always rolled out as the answer to all ills. Only it does not work! It's only the enforcers and those blinkered by correspondence bias that think it's the answer.

If speed limit enforcement was the answer how come most of my friends who I have ridden with for many years now ride 200 mph sports bikes, rather than the "ton Up" bikes we started on thirty to forty years ago? We ride UK roads and very few of my friends stick to limits. It's a farce. That is not what keeps us safe. The UK has a proper network of training instructors. Everyone who uses a motorised vehicle on the road has to take real world interactive training in order to get to test standard. That is what is totally missing in Thailand.

Speed is actually a counter indicator to pedestrian safety on UK roads. Accidents happen at low speeds in congested areas, same as Thailand, it's where there are lots of vehicles that we see lots of accidents. But vehicles need clear roads to speed! UK Speed Enforcement is for revenue collection purposes only!

The Thai driving and riding tests are not even to the standard we would expect from a 16 year old rider on the first day of training, we would at least expect a two hour road ride from them before even validating their licence to ride a scooter on the road. To take a novice to full test standard usually takes another four to five days on road training, even then there is a high test fail rate. Test examiners want to see road users deal with real world situations, not an off road simulated road layout.

We are challenging the enforcement approach at international level with "Safety II" thinking.

This is familiar to anyone who rides a Japanese bike as it's based on the Japanese Kaizen thinking based on continues improvement. It is the approach they use to build bikes and also the basis for all Japanese motorcycle training schools that are springing up in Thailand. Only they are running into snags now as well, they teach people to ride to a system where people usually follow the rules. The Japanese approach has now got to learn how to apply itself in a new environment, that process is currently underway.

The situation in Thailand can improve, but it must be in a unique way to address Thai issues, relying on outdated enforcement ideas will continue to fail in the same way it has done for many years in Thailand and elsewhere.

Thai Safe Rider

Beg to differ. Enforcement in my view, is a necessary part of a fuller picture, The is, at the moment, little incentive for people close to my home town, to observe the law, since not doing sso does not result in any consequence. Not the whole picture bu to pretend it doesn't work at all is just silly.

"The situation in Thailand can improve, but it must be in a unique way to address Thai issues, relying on outdated enforcement ideas will continue to fail in the same way it has done for many years in Thailand and elsewhere."

Your buying into the whole Thai exceptionalism shtick. It's nonsense. Thais are essentially the same as any other body of people, except in so far as they have learned some extremely unfortunate lessons as they grew to the equivalent development level as a 12-year-old in USA or Europe.

To say they need a unique solution, other than in the very fine details of execution, is, unfortunately, not a credible thing to say. The principles are the same worldwide because psychology is the same worldwide.

Enforcement is necessary, but I agree it won't work in isolation from the other necessary components. The problem with Thailand is it has shown itself incapable of getting even enforcement right.

W

[Winniedapu]

"I am confused cos on a social level when dealing with a Thai or Thais, everyone can be so polite soft spoken and nice but the moment they get on the wheels the behaviour is totally different lol."

Understandable, it can be puzzling.

In a Sakdina-based culture, politeness arises from fear. If you want to test this, go shopping to (say) the Emporium, in some really scruffy clothes, no watch, no jewellery, dirty shoes or flip-flops Not shaved, etc and see how much courtesy you get from shopkeepers/staff/passing strangers. If they do not see that you might be superior to them in the social scale, they will assume you are inferior and then the mask slips and their disdain for other people shows through. Try it. I have.

Traffic safety, on the other hand and the danger if they drive poorly (as most of them do) is a lesson they haven't yet learned. That's because in many cases (especially i riding a motorcycle, the result is fatality, so they never get the chance to think or be told "wow that was a seriously stuipid thing to do..."

We learn what we are taught, first and foremost, Thais are propagandised (taught) to think 'must respect seniors'. Apart from some really ineffectual things, nobody ever teaches them the existential danger of driving like a fool.

W

[Ceruhe]

If speed limit enforcement was the answer how come most of my friends who I have ridden with for many years now ride 200 mph sports bikes, rather than the "ton Up" bikes we started on thirty to forty years ago? We ride UK roads and very few of my friends stick to limits. It's a farce. That is not what keeps us safe. The UK has a proper network of training instructors. Everyone who uses a motorised vehicle on the road has to take real world interactive training in order to get to test standard. That is what is totally missing in Thailand.

[...]

Then we are into a world of finger pointing and blame. "We have a full licence, we are the experts now, look at all those horrible nasty law breakers not abiding by the rules, driving badly and having all the accidents". The whole system is backed up by enforcers and Insurance companies whose purpose is to find blame. Always someone else's fault.

Uff....well.

I'd give or take argue there are 2 different kind of enforcement and laws that are sound and reasonable etc...lemme try to explain what I mean.

Your anecdotal "evidence" about your own singled out examples are kind of moot...it goes along the same lines of "everybody does this and that, but [insert example] does not". Sterotypes etc usually have a pretty solid groundwork they are based on and that's why generalisations happen and why I've become really annoyed that nowadays people need to extra specify "I am saying this and that but of course it does not apply to all" as that is wasted and comes with the common understanding what is even being said.

But to pick your example right back up, personally am split to enforcing speedlimits. And as I just mentioned it needing to be pointed out by the people that can't common sense, I'm not talking about people driving 120+ in downtown [capital of choice] but the overall sentiment that speed is, ehm, well, relative. Sorta sunny afternoon on your way to god knows where, 20km straight, almost no traffic....step on the gas as you hard as you want for all I care, I just don't see a point to be forced to abide by a 100kph limitation or whatever, provided you can handle what you are doing and aren't plain ignorant of everything....would need to provide mundane examples but I'll skip this part, likely most people know about situational awareness.

On the other hand I do see a point to having a speedlimit in cities etc. Sure, we can argue about the actual limit (imo in most cases set too low), but the general idea is sound regardless. I do see it as a deterrent if you are on a mainroad with a decent amount of traffic and you got these special cases that will sway left/right or cut in etc for that one bloody second you get there faster or 1 car lenght further ahead....this may not just be a speedlimit issue but usually a retard issue though.

On the same hand, palm side however, if the posted speed is 60 but traffic is currently moving just brilliantly at around 70 and it isn't exactly a pedestrian area, then I'd also see no point in enforcing speed limits here

But then we do have laws that are so sensible, that every offence that isn't kosher should and needs to be enforced without exceptions. And because we all know thailand...running red lights. That shit has nothing whatsoever to find itself getting a free pass. You run the red light 3-5 seconds after with [pick your number] kph you are compromising peoples safety and lives with that level of stupid. Since educating people here about personal as well as other peoples safety isn't a thing, radical and harsh enforcement with punishments ought to sober them up fast. If you keep letting them pass for running red lights, nothing will ever change until they have such an accident themselves and hopefully have learned for the future. Contrary if you just randomly enforce some law, to be specific this no helmet and maaaaaybe no DL, at random days but near set timesat the same spots, it's a farce and you just can't muster the respect the laws in place.If people drive with or without helmets doesn't even bother me, it's their choice and their risk, don't care at all, but <deleted> don't pull them out, give them a ticket and then send them back on the road doing _exactly_ what you just stopped and fined them for...with that in mind, I recently had somebody say "if you got busted today already, you have a free pass for the rest of the day as you already have your ticket" or something along those lines. Dunno if true but I have 0.000000% doubt that this is a thing here.

By all means, if it's late night, nigh 0 traffic and you are forced by a traffic light to sit 2 minutes for no apparant reason besides the traffic itself not being equipped with motion/time sensors or whatever, go for it, I wouldn't mind anyone doing that, just don't expect me not to flip my shit and call for enforcement when somebody is doing it in broad daylight, heavy traffic and most likely also blocking my movement as a result or even involve me in an accident and even hold me (part) responsible then. If your recklessness compromises my safety or my wallet, I'm taking issues....and because you pretty much can't get 10m anywhere without anybody doing something stupid, it's perma rage here.

But that's simply where some rules simply need strict enforcing. You are in a society and everyone ought to be expected to adhere to the same standard for everyones sake and be held resonsible if failing to do so. Just like we should be counting on enforcement if we got robbed, have been victim of an assault or whatever we also should expect our safety not to be compromised simply because enforcement didn't want to do what's it's supposed to do for the greater good.

"I am for the death penalty. Who commits terrible acts must get a fitting punishment. That way he learns the lesson for the next time."

[goodheart555]

How about the police just plan work...you know do some patrolling and stuff, waiting and hiding behind billboards and you know like enforcing the law type of thing...How about that instead of just setting up a road blocks so they can collect bribes easily and then just sit around for the rest of the day doing nothing.

[goodheart555]

One more thing...I just hope The Thais on this committee will have one or two or even better three westerners as advisors.

I mean seriously.

[CarolJadzia]

The difference between the "Enforcement" approach and the "Kaizen" "Safety 2" approach is the difference between what is expected to happen and what actually happens.

You cannot enforce safety on a system. You can only enforce people to follow rules that in your opinion will possibly keep them safe and people will only follow them for as long as they are enforced to do so.

But in the real world often these rules often have counter consequences I.E. on one UK road where they raised the lorry speed limit the accident rate went down as car drivers stopped trying to overtake the slow lorries as often. Or another example would be stopping at a red light and then getting rear ended by someone.

You cannot enforce people to follow rules they do not understand. Nobody is suggesting that suddenly everyone is going to suddenly be decent responsible educated drivers how ever much enforcement is thrown at them, it will not happen. In the same way as in the UK with all it's enforcement people do not follow all the rules all the time. Humans only follow the rules they see applicable to them, meet their objectives or the ones they understand in the first place!

So keep hoping that the enforcers are going to clean up Thailand's streets because it's not going to happen any time soon.

I do respect the "enforcement" approach it is the standard approach I was teaching for thirty years. The UK Police "Roadcraft" approach is still the main post test training manual used by Police, other emergency services and the majority of post test training schools like the "Institute of advanced motorists" (IAM) and the "Royal Society for the prevention of accidents" (ROSPA) in the UK. It is a very good standard based on 75 years of Experience. But this approach is being challenged. A system that is based on everybody following the rules only works when everybody follows all the rules and that does not happen anywhere.

I was converted when introduced to the new approach to rider thinking called "No Surprise / No Accident", this is based on the Kaizen approach and uses "Safety 2" thinking. On the "research papers and resources library" page there is plenty of peer reviewed scientific research that backs up our approach as well. This does not require others to change as the approach deals with understanding the world as it is, not expecting it to follow rules that it does not. Rather than "top down" enforcement expecting others to follow your rules, "Safety 2" looks at what actually happens. This is standard or is currently being adopted by other safety critical industries such as aviation. It is only road safety that has been dominated by enforcers that is stuck in outdated thinking.

see: Recovery from command and control - a twelve step program

[goodheart555]

The reason I recommend the police do your job way of stopping crazy Thai driving is because the other way is the get the Thai people to be more intelligent, empathetic, courteous and safe, way of stopping crazy Thai driving ...That is laughably impossible.

But then again getting the Thai police to do there job and stop being the uniformed mafia they are is not any less laughable.

[Moonmoon]

I always wonder how are thai driving lessons and tests conducted as most Thais I know don't even know what or where their blind spots are.

Well, you get in the car with somebody else that "knows how to drive" or rather, knows how manual works....and off they go to learn, eh, pass on exactly that mechanic....that's about it.

When I got here, I took like 2 hours worth of lessons with some random....reputable (lol?) driving school pretty much to learn manual, otherwise been driving for years....automatic.

Turned out to be pretty much a waste of time. Couldn't drive faster than like 20 km/h without the dude falling into some worrysome state of us sliding off the road because we didn't have tires but slicks. Yea well, wasted time and money, after we got our own car then and I messed around with that a little on my own it clicked fast enough and all the explanations I've gotten about "slowly let go the clutch and give it a tap" wereall but lies to me.

As for getting the DL....had our international permit simply converted to a Thai DL after passing 2 test...telling the color on a traffic light (in random order! albeit without explanation to what they mean, phew!) and then some, I'm not even sure that to call that, depth peception test or something, aka you sit there and get to sync up some random stick that you can move forward/backwards until you align it with a line. Think I utterly failed that as I had no point of relation to it to be able to tell the distance....I wasn't "smart enough" to simply move my head around as I would in the car, but didn't in the test as I didn't know if that was a thing or not.

I am confused cos on a social level when dealing with a Thai or Thais, everyone can be so polite soft spoken and nice but the moment they get on the wheels the behaviour is totally different lol.

Guilty of that myself, the onyl thing that gets me moody is sweating and my Tshirt being soaked in the wrong places. This does not apply to driving though, I can get into the car perfectly calm, sit there only trying to get out of my parking spot (provided I couldn't dash) and flipping my shit in 1 second flat.

But that personality change thing behind the wheels seems to be an international thing though, something about it that makes one irritated fast. If I had to speculate, it's the (un)concious awaereness of driving being crazy dangerous on so many levels and seeing people constantly making mistakes or being out of line somehow correlating to your own safety being compromised on. People are scared of flying and stuff but have nearly no qualms about driving in a car, despite planes being the safest travel method that we have by levels of magnitude.

Thanks for sharing!

[Ceruhe]

The difference between the "Enforcement" approach and the "Kaizen" "Safety 2" approach is the difference between what is expected to happen and what actually happens.

Alright, so I read your links that you provided and followed some more from that, but all I'm understanding is having given it a new name, because the old one "common sense" just doesn't cut it.

You are right as far as to say "people just want to get their DL and are set, they do not learn how to Safety2" or something along those lines. Which I will admit, that is the case, my driving test in the US only consisted of being able to navigate, park in a crazy easy spot....and accuse and fail me of not having checked my mirrors when turning a corner, when a quick glance but a solid head turn seemed more effective to me....well that happened twice no less.

But other than that...well, how to say. If you need to teach people common sense (and god knows people are stupid), then obviously laws and punishments will only be so effective until then. Again, if you need "an hour long educational lessson" about the 3 colors of a traffic light and what we assigned them to mean, then that's a straight up case for "unfit to participate" to me. Not only do we grow up to learn that red means "negative" and green means "positive" through various stages in our lives (at least in most cases...), it inherently becomes "common sense" to us to apply said experience to new encounters with the unknown.

Just like it _has_ to be common sense by default that you ought to stay in your lane, visibly and consistantly marked with lines, until you put on your signal to actually change lanes. Few things are too apparant to not know if you even grew up with said things being common place and that's where some laws simply need to be set and enforced. I can't tell how many soi dogs I've already seen that "look left and right" for cars before crossing or wait for the traffic to stop on red and wait for pedestrian green. Granted, I see just as many that sorta run onto a street and then start jumping back....or tucking their tail and sit down out of fear trying to manage a few steps into the right direction. But here I am comparing a "stupid inferior dog" to our "human superior knowledge and learning capabilities"...if "50%" of the dogs can understand what's going on without having been taught jack, then I _do_ expect 100% of humans to understand it within fast. I'd wager most of us have learned to "look left and right and be careful when crossing the street" by the time we are 5 and "wait here until it turns green" around the same time. Until we grow older, get a general understanding that no car = no danger and a red light = waste of time to wait....so we still look left and right and be careful when crossing...when then start the habit of crossing streets on red and J walk right along with that. We know the street isn't lava for as long as our light is red and if no car is coming, that red light simply is a safety measure that can be bypassed with common sense.

But I can take that to gaming as well, lots of MMOs feature high end content that contains enemies that need a certain amount of people to overcome and work together. But because it's a program and the enemies following set patterns assigned to them, we already know what is going to happen in which order and likely even down to a second accurately and could play blindfolded if we'd have a sense of where we are going. While that isn't exactly the same to traffic it still highlights the aspect of common sense and "know what is going to (likely) happen". We still have nearly all the information we need to know to anticipate what is going on and what might happen and can predict the outcome beforehand. As one of the articles states "a wall is an obstruction and we know that a car is unlikely to move forward into it but reverse and back away from it"....and that is simply common sense that one picks up from just being alive...if that common sense thing hasn't rung a bell by the time you are applying for a DL, something is wrong....but not with the system though.

With all that rambling said, please tell me where my train of thought goes "wrong" in the terms of laws/rules that we have set and defined and are expected of road users to adhere.

You get of the legal required age to apply for a DL. You then go to the place where you can get a DL. You are made to learn and remember "the rules" though a handbook or whatever is in place. You think you read and learned everything and thus go back to the place. You are now made to take a written test to verify that you do understand "the rules" and also need to show that knowledge through a practical test, i.e. sit with an instructor that evaluates your adherence to "the rules". Said evaluator, given that it is the authority to grant the access to a DL, will process the performance of the applicant through various tests and come to the result of passing or failing. If the applicant failed, that shows a risk to the community and therefore needs to learn "the rules" some more and eventually re-take the test until getting passed. If and when the applicant passes, that is an approval from the proper authority, said person gets their DL and is "fit for the road" which usually emcompasses the most needed basics...stopping at a red light, paying attention to oncoming traffic when backing up, checking/turning the side mirrors when turning, using your turning signal when changing lanes/turning, slowing down and keeping distance to the vehicle(s) in front of you, not swaying in your lane and whatever else have you. The DL is therefore proof that you have completed "the rules" and are on the same page as the other roadusers who adhere to the same rules as you. It has also given you the privilege of operating a vehicle and expanded your possible mobility to wherever applicable, but that does come at the costs that are associated with priviledges....getting held responsible for your actions.

Now then, I will hereby concede that (at least not during my time) there wasn't much of a safety education that would tell me "there is a car infront of you that you need to keep your distance to but ALSO pay attention to the car behind you, the ones next to you as well as the cars somewhat ahead of you", but at the same token that was common sense to me already as to my understanding I see no point giving the car directly infront of me any special status and attention over the other ones in my immediate area. Likewise, there was also no "alright this is a 30 zones and there are parked cars, maybe some kid will jump out between them" and here I'd argue it being common sense. As I stated, most kids will have learned that whole schtick by the time they are 5 or so, but because they are kids and danger etc isn't quite there yet, the possibility of them ignoring what they have been taught is very high, likewise I'd argue that a driver doesn't need to expect a kid jumping out every meter of the way until they arrive at the destination, however common sense again will tell us "its a possibility and a somewhat higher one to happen, but likely isn't going to be the case" thus it here becomes a "proceed with caution and a more focused attention to said possiblity and being ready to break" which may or may not still leave you with a car infront of you again, but hey, you can widen the gap....common sense kicks in here again.

Which ultimately brings us down to enforcement. Collision when 2 people predicted the other persons movement wrong? Entirely possible and happens way more than it should, but that can't exactly be enforced properly. Not wanting to sound contradictory to my previous statements, but in this case an accident happened partly because of both parties that did adhere to the rules but failed to apply them correctly at the moment, as one of the articles states possible causes such as "blindspot" or "can go, will go" when the other driver deemed it to be "can't go, shouldn't go". But that would be nitpicking to me now to make strong enforcements about simply common day mistakes, we are humans afterall and have flaws and do make mistakes, BUT....

....what we really are on about are the rogues and that's where strict enforcement should and needs to happen. Suchs as we have in thailand common place with running red lights. There should be no exception at all considering the frequency and purely intended attitude that people have. You can make any arguments you want, but you can in no way proof to me that people are running red lights this much by several seconds by accident. Granted, I can't proof it either than they do, but taking things into consideration and applying common sense what happens here daily, I'd bet my life and the entire galaxy that most everyone runs it intentionally (excluding the "just barely's" and "too late to stop because too sudden's").

That attitude is simply a lack of enforcement and not holding people responsible for the priviledge that they have been granted. It may have been a lack of qualified instructor that passed them when they were actually failures, again a thing of failed enforcement to keep standards at appriopriate levels.

Since coming here I have learned to be wary of traffic lights, especially if it has just changed from red to green....in the US I'd rabbit-start frequently (is that the word? aka getting to speed limit asap again) as there was rarely a red light runner and the intersections are usually overseeable...but that was also because people adhered to the rules that a red light means stop, and not as here in thailand "my trafficlight just switched to red, but I still have 3 seconds regardless because I was close enough and be elidgble to cross this intersection without needing to wait another phase". So now I common sensed that it's safer for me to a) start when it turns green asap, but give it a second (as in getting into gear when it turns green as opposed to be in green when it does) and start more slowly overall and c) pay a couple % extra attention to where a red light runner would still come from. I don't think I'm anything special in that regard and what I think common sense ought to be....common. Just as my common sense told me "enforcement here is not a thing and nothing is liekly going to change about it either".

But I have rambled on enough, sorry for that. On to the closure~

I certainly am not arguing that Safety 2 and whatever is anywhere near useless or shouldn't be made a thing, as I said, I know people are bloody stupid and that's why religion is still a thing, wars happen and democrazy is apparantly a good thing, but when common sense to the greater degree isn't a thing and people's egos take priority over the rules, then enforcement simply needs to hit hard to make that lesson stick. Enforcing at least a decent amount of traffic rules here would help tremendously already and people do learn fast if their wallet is being targeted from what I've experienced so far. If we can't expect that much enforcement (again specificly pointing out red light runners) then I also see no reason why we'd have lanes and traffic lights in the first place, then we can just make it a free for all for everybody and call it a day too, along with getting rid of all traffic related police and make them do something worth their salaries, just no point of having them otherwise.

[onemorechang]

No one cares. It's just an other day of meetings and free lunch.

Thai drivers / Riders, kill there children , family , friends, innocent bystanders

They just don't care.

Stupid is Stupid does.

Edited June 25, 2016 by onemorechang

[Winniedapu]

The difference between the "Enforcement" approach and the "Kaizen" "Safety 2" approach is the difference between what is expected to happen and what actually happens.

Alright, so I read your links that you provided and followed some more from that, but all I'm understanding is having given it a new name, because the old one "common sense" just doesn't cut it.

<snippage>

But I have rambled on enough, sorry for that. On to the closure~

I certainly am not arguing that Safety 2 and whatever is anywhere near useless or shouldn't be made a thing, as I said, I know people are bloody stupid and that's why religion is still a thing, wars happen and democrazy is apparantly a good thing, but when common sense to the greater degree isn't a thing and people's egos take priority over the rules, then enforcement simply needs to hit hard to make that lesson stick. Enforcing at least a decent amount of traffic rules here would help tremendously already and people do learn fast if their wallet is being targeted from what I've experienced so far. If we can't expect that much enforcement (again specificly pointing out red light runners) then I also see no reason why we'd have lanes and traffic lights in the first place, then we can just make it a free for all for everybody and call it a day too, along with getting rid of all traffic related police and make them do something worth their salaries, just no point of having them otherwise.

"I can't tell how many soi dogs I've already seen that "look left and right" for cars before crossing or wait for the traffic to stop on red and wait for pedestrian gree"

Yes, well, dogs learn pretty much the same way as humans do. Not so fast and not so complex because their cortex is not so big. But they learn from experience. Steal from the table and you'll get kicked, that sort of thing is quickly learned because it causes pain. Come and get this biscuit but first you have to sit, that sort of thing is learned because it gives pleasure. Dogs learn the same way as very stupid people...

W

Edited June 25, 2016 by Winniedapu

[CarolJadzia]

I will give one example of where the new thinking changed the way I approach my riding as an example of the difference between "Safety 1" and "Safety 2" - the SMIDSY.

Anyone who rides a motorcycle has probably heard the line "Sorry Mate, I Didn't See You!" Normally at junctions where a car has turned across the path of an approaching rider.

The standard approach is for the police to turn up and after checking that nobody is drunk or drugged. They measure the skid marks and if the rider was not speeding, then it's the drivers fault for not looking. This is how enforcement and blame deal with the situation.

As riding Instructors we could teach people how to ride the bike. We can teach them how to use the brakes correctly in an emergency. We can also teach them hazard avoidance skills for when someone does pull out. Only we have always had to teach that some will just pull out or turn across riders without warning. As the majority of road safety training on the planet is still based on this approach the same enforcement based blame game is still played out thousands of times on a daily basis. So many times it's now got it's own acronym - the "SMIDSY"

Having had more SMIDSYs than I ever want to remember, fortunately only few having lead to an accident, but when they do it really messes up the day, causes lots of inconvenience and has led to my pride and joy being damaged and arguments with Insurance companies about who is to blame. I am fortunate that one has never killed me, unfortunatly that does happen. Of course it's ok if the enforcers turn up and blame the car driver for not looking, great it was not my fault, does that really help?

Even the enforcers are now using adverts on the telly to reinforce the fact that people should look more for riders! It's ignorance of the science as to how the human brain works, how the human eye sees the world, along with correspondence bias and idleness in only picking the low hanging fruit!

Car drivers will look, in most places at least, Thai's are different, but will come back to that. Most people have been taught to look one way, then the other, then back again. The second look confirms what they saw in the first look, but will give a better estimate of the speed of the approaching vehicles from the first look.

We are hunters, we have forward facing eyes, they focus on a single point, when we look we are pre programmed to track large moving blocks, so we will focus on an approaching lorry or car. Only the rest of the picture outside of the focus is made up from the memory stored in the brain. It is very easy to miss an approaching motorcycle with the first look, the second look just confirms it's not there. Here is a video explaining this in greater detail.

The science behind this is from multiple peer reviewed sources, links to papers discussing the subject can be found under the "Vision" section of the No Surprise / No Accident - resources page

Now in Thailand the issue is slightly different, the same rules apply for motion camouflage ect, but many drivers will just pull out anyway. Some will assume they have right of way because they are in a bigger vehicle or that their status gives them privilege over the biker. Or maybe they do understand traffic laws and they are blindly following the rule that suggests you give way to the left at four way junctions? Some will just go regardless of rules or common sense.

We are not going to stop Thai SMIDSYs, the same as they still happen elsewhere, but we can and do adopt the way we ride and drive to accommodate the fact we know that they will happen, also to develop ways to deal with them so that they are a lesser danger to us when they do.

[Ceruhe]

Well, not much to argue with that alright, it's sound advice and adresses potential issues with oneself or rather being aware of "I'm responsible for my own safety as well, thus I should do something about it", just like we lock our doors when we go out as to not invite thieves, sure it's not perfect but it's a safety measure.

....but since we are in Thailand and the basics aren't even there yet, SMIDSY is but a distant dream for folks here. With that said, yesterday on the way home I almost took one down on a round about, another one feeling the need to go from the outer lane straight to the inner lane of the circle and then keep going straight back into the outer lane, things I just won't understand how people can be this demented

[Basil B]

Ban all Thais from driving...

[CarolJadzia]

Well, not much to argue with that alright, it's sound advice and adresses potential issues with oneself or rather being aware of "I'm responsible for my own safety as well, thus I should do something about it", just like we lock our doors when we go out as to not invite thieves, sure it's not perfect but it's a safety measure.

....but since we are in Thailand and the basics aren't even there yet, SMIDSY is but a distant dream for folks here. With that said, yesterday on the way home I almost took one down on a round about, another one feeling the need to go from the outer lane straight to the inner lane of the circle and then keep going straight back into the outer lane, things I just won't understand how people can be this demented

I do not think they are demented? Just normal everyday people doing normal everyday things.

We get people "straight lining" roundabouts in the UK as well. In fact, when no other vehicles are about, I will do it myself. I have also had vehicles do it to me often and when stuck with novice riders, who we have to teach to keep left when turning left or going ahead, we include teaching them a look over their right shoulder to check a vehicle is not doing it to them.

But Thai drivers have never had any proper instruction on using roundabouts. The land traffic act says to generally give way to the left. But only specifically roundabouts does this change to "give way to the right". As the only testing of this knowledge is done through a confusing Theory test which contains other contradicting errors, is it any surprise people do not understand how to use them?

I spent three hours trying to help an 85 year old understand how to use roundabouts, he had spent 70 years cycling everywhere, but as his legs where failing, he now needed a scooter so he could get to his bowling club. He did not understand that he was required to go the long way round the roundabout to get to his destination, when there was a more direct straighter route! Sound familiar? That was in the UK!

In a way Thai roundabouts are easier because we can expect people not to follow the rules, therefore our guard is already up when we approach.

You probably knew that car was going to straight line the roundabout because it is a regular occurrence. "No Surprise / No Accident".

As there is no instruction in Thailand in how to share the roads, road users drive and ride by the rules they already know. The rule system they have grown up with and used all their lives, the one they learned as pedestrians. Because, due to cultural challenges such as "Mai pen rai" and the wish to never cause loss of face, this is rarely corrected and bad ideas become the norm. I.E. using four way flashers to signal going straight on at junctions or as a defence when overtaking something already overtaking!

Also it is a cultural norm to blame things on circumstance rather than people. If you fancy some real heavy reading on this then first there is "Correspondence Bias" (pdf)

The correspondence bias is the tendency to draw inferences about a person's unique and enduring dispositions from behaviors that can be entirely explained by the situations in which they occur

and then we need to consider that there is a cultural variances in the way others may perceive the world "Cultural Variation in Correspondence Bias" (pdf)

This is seen in the daily reports of coach and bus accidents where the common reason is "brake failure", but no connection is ever made to the drivers actions that lead to the brake failure, such as not selecting a low gear at the top of the hill and keeping the speed down on decent. Another would be blaming the weather for a loss of control rather than poor braking technique and travelling too close for the conditions.

The average human is just trying to get on with their life, many Thai's consider this life as part of a greater journey, pre determined destiny based on their actions in this and previous lives. That is a common core belief. So suggesting that they need to wear a helmet is often seen as challenging a core belief. Yet the focus of safety has been insistence that Thai's wear helmets, rather than focus on teaching them how to avoid needing helmets in the first place.

This has also lead to knee jerk reactions to safety. As 80% of accidents are motorcycle related the easy thing to do is try and address that by other means. So ban motorcycles from bridges and tunnels in Bangkok. Force all riders to keep left and use dangerous "motorcycle only" lanes, also ban all motorcycles, even "big bikes" from expressways. All of which does little to address the problem, in fact it makes the situation worse.

I have proposed a solution for this, it has been forwarded as a proposal to the Thailand land traffic office and others, hopefully forwarding it to the NRSA Committee- Thailand Motorcycle Road Safety Ambassadors

Everybody has developed coping strategies to survive in the system that is. Expecting enforcement to change that is not going to happen any time soon. Buddhism teaches about self improvement and how to earn merit from our actions towards others. That needs to be the focus of improvement, not the continued fault finding of others.

[ikke]

Stop to the garlands in the cars would be a good start..... they create a blind spot which is huge and very dangerous, I don't allow my family to put one of these in the cars.

[Winniedapu]

Stop to the garlands in the cars would be a good start..... they create a blind spot which is huge and very dangerous, I don't allow my family to put one of these in the cars.

Good point, but that would require an abandonment of superstition and superstition is necessary for the Thai culture to continue toi thrive.

Thin end of the wedge, there;s no telling where it might end - Thais might even stop believing in the propaganda they're immersed in from cradle to the grave. And that simply would not do, because those for whose benefit the propaganda was created, would lose money.

No good at all.

Winnie

Edited June 26, 2016 by Winniedapu