PM says 280 billion baht in loss from the rice scheme is not the final figure

[mike324]

13 hours ago, MZurf said:

Would have this, and would have that.  What we know for a fact is that they tried to hold an election, and if the junta supporters are to be believed PTP would have lost in a landslide. Strange then, that the Suthep followers blocked it! What happened instead was that the Army overthrew the caretaker government (do you now admit that that was incorrect of you to claim this was pure PTP propaganda?) and gave themselves the mother of all amnesties. And I must say that the PTP amnesty attempt pales in comparison to the shameless carte blanche the junta gave themselves and their boys. 

Agreed?

 

I believe everyone in Thailand know for a FACT that PTP would have won no matter how many elections we hold. Again when more than 50% of the citizens think a little corruption is alright, we know which direction the country is heading too! 

 

Army did not overthrow the caretaker government. She was removed by the court. But for the pro-ptp whatever the court say is always bias and not valid right?

 

Mother of all amnesties? Perhaps, but the army did not cause the downfall of the society and put citizens in debt. Put that in perspective. Funny how pro-ptp never attack the rice scheme and all the faileds schemes - need me to name a few?... that led to Yinglucks downfall.

[JAG]

31 minutes ago, mike324 said:

 

Given how much rice is loss and the books were not even clear to begin with...a close estimate is the best option they have...or if you have a better idea of how to count the loss rice please do share!

Were discussing (in this exchange of posts)  how much rice is in the warehouses. You yourself said that the amount  was only estimated. It is physically present, it can be counted can it not?

[MZurf]

4 minutes ago, mike324 said:

 

I believe everyone in Thailand know for a FACT that PTP would have won no matter how many elections we hold. Again when more than 50% of the citizens think a little corruption is alright, we know which direction the country is heading too! 

 

Army did not overthrow the caretaker government. She was removed by the court. But for the pro-ptp whatever the court say is always bias and not valid right?

 

Mother of all amnesties? Perhaps, but the army did not cause the downfall of the society and put citizens in debt. Put that in perspective. Funny how pro-ptp never attack the rice scheme and all the faileds schemes - need me to name a few?... that led to Yinglucks downfall.

"I believe everyone in Thailand know for a FACT that PTP would have won no matter how many elections we hold."

 

If you say so. Now, why is that so do you think (careful, the answer will reveal which body part you're thinking with)? 

 

"Again when more than 50% of the citizens think a little corruption is alright, we know which direction the country is heading too!"

 

Oh, FAR more than 50 % of the electorate are OK with corruption. AFAIK the figure is in the high seventies or low eighties. SO your insinuation that only the PTP voters are OK with corruption is of course pure <deleted>.

 

"Army did not overthrow the caretaker government. She was removed by the court. But for the pro-ptp whatever the court say is always bias and not valid right?"

 

I would like to draw your attention to Wikipedia:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Thai_coup_d'état

" On 22 May 2014, the Royal Thai Armed Forces, led by General Prayut Chan-o-cha, Commander of the Royal Thai Army (RTA), launched a coup d'état, the 12th since the country's first coup in 1932, against the caretaker government of Thailand, "

 

SO, obviously Wikipedia got it wrong and I urge you to correct them on this grave error!!! I would also urge you to contact the "PM" and tell him he's off the hook when it comes to the coup because if there is no government in place how can there be a coup!

 

"but the army did not cause the downfall of the society...."

 

Exaggerating a TEENY bit, are we?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/drama queen

[mike324]

11 minutes ago, JAG said:

Were discussing (in this exchange of posts)  how much rice is in the warehouses. You yourself said that the amount  was only estimated. It is physically present, it can be counted can it not?

 

Physically present, yes can be counted. But then physically present rice is lower than the amount indicated in the books / warehouse inventory list. Hence the estimate of rice under the scheme. 

[ClutchClark]

15 hours ago, rosst said:

I am just an ordinary run of the mill bloke who comes to Thailand and enjoys the place. I have a house in some one else's name and come for a holiday a couple of times each year for a couple of months. 

It seems to me that the place is much better now than before the coup. 

Oh well,  just my two bobs worth. 

 

Same boat as you.

 

Cheers

[mike324]

39 minutes ago, MZurf said:

 

"Army did not overthrow the caretaker government. She was removed by the court. But for the pro-ptp whatever the court say is always bias and not valid right?"

 

I would like to draw your attention to Wikipedia:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Thai_coup_d'état

" On 22 May 2014, the Royal Thai Armed Forces, led by General Prayut Chan-o-cha, Commander of the Royal Thai Army (RTA), launched a coup d'état, the 12th since the country's first coup in 1932, against the caretaker government of Thailand, "

 

SO, obviously Wikipedia got it wrong and I urge you to correct them on this grave error!!! I would also urge you to contact the "PM" and tell him he's off the hook when it comes to the coup because if there is no government in place how can there be a coup!

 

"but the army did not cause the downfall of the society...."

 

Exaggerating a TEENY bit, are we?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/drama queen

 

"If you say so. Now, why is that so do you think (careful, the answer will reveal which body part you're thinking with)? "

Lack of law enforcement over the years hence people are so use to the corruption and its part of their lives. Which brings the point that, majority in Thailand does not mean they are right.

 

"Oh, FAR more than 50 % of the electorate are OK with corruption. AFAIK the figure is in the high seventies or low eighties. SO your insinuation that only the PTP voters are OK with corruption is of course pure <deleted>."

Never claim the party I lean against is corrupt-free and clean as well. Just making a general statement, the majority of Thais do not know whats good for the country. Hence us foreigners are here trying to tell them what to do! Never said PTP voters are OK with corruption. Just many misinformed voters.

 

I meant to say Army did not overthrow caretaker government with Yingluck in charge.Again,  Yingluck was removed by the court, not the army like many misinformed pro-ptp keep on saying.

 

I truly believe if YIngluck did not mess up the Rice Scheme, she would not have been removed by the courts.

Edited August 5, 2016 by mike324

[MZurf]

15 hours ago, rosst said:

I am just an ordinary run of the mill bloke who comes to Thailand and enjoys the place. I have a house in some one else's name and come for a holiday a couple of times each year for a couple of months. 

It seems to me that the place is much better now than before the coup. 

Oh well,  just my two bobs worth. 

Just curious as to what exactly is better for a tourist after the coup?

[MZurf]

7 minutes ago, mike324 said:

 

"If you say so. Now, why is that so do you think (careful, the answer will reveal which body part you're thinking with)? "

Lack of law enforcement over the years hence people are so use to the corruption and its part of their lives. Which brings the point that, majority in Thailand does not mean they are right.

 

"Oh, FAR more than 50 % of the electorate are OK with corruption. AFAIK the figure is in the high seventies or low eighties. SO your insinuation that only the PTP voters are OK with corruption is of course pure <deleted>."

Hence us foreigners are here trying to tell them what to do! Never said PTP voters are OK with corruption. Just many misinformed voters.

 

I meant to say Army did not overthrow caretaker government with Yingluck in charge.Again,  Yingluck was removed by the court, not the army like many misinformed pro-ptp keep on saying.

 

I truly believe if YIngluck did not mess up the Rice Scheme, she would not have been removed by the courts.

If you say so. Now, why is that so do you think (careful, the answer will reveal which body part you're thinking with)? "
Lack of law enforcement over the years hence people are so use to the corruption and its part of their lives. Which brings the point that, majority in Thailand does not mean they are right.

Actually, my comment was based on your statement

"I believe everyone in Thailand know for a FACT that PTP would have won no matter how many elections we hold." I'm still waiting for an answer.

 

"Never claim the party I lean against is corrupt-free and clean as well. Just making a general statement, the majority of Thais do not know whats good for the country."

 

OK, so their voting rights should then be taken away from them, as well as the right to assembly and the right to free and unrestricted public debates on the proposed charter??

So I guess then that you agree with a group of "good generals" taking over the country and running it like they see fit. Tell me, what about the Thai military forces and their rather unimpressive track record since 1932 is it that makes you optimistic anything will be changed for the better? Is it the two Pees??

 

"I meant to say Army did not overthrow caretaker government with Yingluck in charge.Again, Yingluck was removed by the court, not the army like many misinformed pro-ptp keep on saying."

 

Again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Thai_coup_d'état

 

Tell me, if YL wasn't in charge then what government was ousted in a coup????

 

"I truly believe if YIngluck did not mess up the Rice Scheme, she would not have been removed by the courts."

 

And I truly believe you're wrong. There is no way the old elite would have accepted not being in charge during the upcoming transition.

 

[mike324]

5 hours ago, MZurf said:

 

 

"I believe everyone in Thailand know for a FACT that PTP would have won no matter how many elections we hold." I'm still waiting for an answer.

Not sure, what you are asking me. Majority still supports PTP?

 

"OK, so their voting rights should then be taken away from them, as well as the right to assembly and the right to free and unrestricted public debates on the proposed charter??

So I guess then that you agree with a group of "good generals" taking over the country and running it like they see fit. Tell me, what about the Thai military forces and their rather unimpressive track record since 1932 is it that makes you optimistic anything will be changed for the better? Is it the two Pees??"

 

Again, I've said in previous post, I don't support everything the General does, and have said we are moving backwards. Two steps back to move forward again. The fact that no changes regarding to corruption with the same old PTP/TRT party in office. Many are quite sick of them flaunting the laws themselves too, espeically the PM. Many pro-ptp fail to see that Thaksin has given his police buddies top positions in state run companies as well as other political positions. What is so different about that and the army in the end? Why is it that under democracy, this is still allow to happen? Why no pro-ptp slam the generals that side with Thaksin? After all, it was a general that gave Thaksin a monopoly license for phones that made him a billionaire in the end! I'm not afraid to criticize the current government, but it seems like you are afraid to criticize the party you support. Seems like they can do no wrong just because they are elected.

 

Again Yingluck was not ousted by the army. She was removed by the court as caretaker PM on May 7. Where she held no political positions from that date. Niwattumrong Boonsongpaisan was the caretaker PM until May 22 when the army took over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niwatthamrong_Boonsongpaisan

Given that Niwattumrong Boonsongpaisan is from the same PTP party as Yingluck. Yes the army did throw out the PTP if you put it that way, but not Yingluck as she was no longer part of the PTP.

 

And to add to that, wikipedia often has errors too...anyone can go edit stuff on wikipedia - you just need to create an account - log in and edit away. That is the whole point of wikipedia if you didn't know. But the link you showed did have that error regarding to who was caretaker PM during the coup.

 

"And I truly believe you're wrong. There is no way the old elite would have accepted not being in charge during the upcoming transition."

And thats what the pro-ptp always say when the Shinawatra are slap with charges - must always be the old elite - never the fault of the corrupt individual! Thaksin was in office how many terms? he was ousted due to his corruption... and if you didn't think his land case corruption charge was valid - I would love to debate with you about it as well if you would start with why its not valid

 

Edited August 5, 2016 by mike324

[Rayk]

So the original figure of 600 billion baht has now been reduced to 280 billion baht. Seems to me that had the Junta and Suthep not orchestrated the coup this loss could have at the very least become a break even.

[MZurf]

5 minutes ago, mike324 said:

"I believe everyone in Thailand know for a FACT that PTP would have won no matter how many elections we hold." I'm still waiting for an answer.

Not sure, what you are asking me. Majority still supports PTP?

 

"OK, so their voting rights should then be taken away from them, as well as the right to assembly and the right to free and unrestricted public debates on the proposed charter??

So I guess then that you agree with a group of "good generals" taking over the country and running it like they see fit. Tell me, what about the Thai military forces and their rather unimpressive track record since 1932 is it that makes you optimistic anything will be changed for the better? Is it the two Pees??"

 

Again, I've said in previous post, I don't support everything the General does, and have said we are moving backwards. Two steps back to move forward again. The fact that no changes regarding to corruption with the same old PTP/TRT party in office. Many are quite sick of them flaunting the laws themselves too, espeically the PM. Again many pro-ptp fail to see that Thaksin has given his police buddies top positions in state run companies as well as other political positions. What is so different about that and the army in the end? 

 

Again Yingluck was not ousted by the army. She was removed by the court as caretaker PM on May 7. Where she held no political positions from that date. Niwattumrong Boonsongpaisan was the caretaker PM until May 22 when the army took over. Given that Niwattumrong Boonsongpaisan is from the same PTP party as Yingluck. Yes the army did throw out the PTP if you put it that way, but not Yingluck as she was no longer part of the PTP. And to add to that, wikipedia often has errors too...anyone can go edit stuff on wikipedia - you just need to create an account - log in and edit away. But the link you showed did have that error regarding to who was caretaker PM during the coup.

 

"And I truly believe you're wrong. There is no way the old elite would have accepted not being in charge during the upcoming transition."

And thats what the pro-ptp always say when the Shinawatra are slap with charges - must always be the old elite - never the fault of the corrupt individual! lol

Just like the claim that the Rice Scheme helps farmers and its sustainable! lol

 

""I believe everyone in Thailand know for a FACT that PTP would have won no matter how many elections we hold." I'm still waiting for an answer.
Not sure, what you are asking me. Majority still supports PTP?"

 

And I'm not sure what I asked because you mix quotes from different posts.

 

"Again many pro-ptp fail to see that Thaksin has given his police buddies top positions in state run companies as well as other political positions. What is so different about that and the army in the end? "

 

The difference is that it is possible to charge the politicians for wrongdoings but not the military. Agreed?

 

"Again Yingluck was not ousted by the army. She was removed by the court as caretaker PM on May 7. Where she held no political positions from that date. Niwattumrong Boonsongpaisan was the caretaker PM until May 22 when the army took over. Given that Niwattumrong Boonsongpaisan is from the same PTP party as Yingluck. Yes the army did throw out the PTP if you put it that way, but not Yingluck as she was no longer part of the PTP. And to add to that, wikipedia often has errors too...anyone can go edit stuff on wikipedia - you just need to create an account - log in and edit away. But the link you showed did have that error regarding to who was caretaker PM during the coup."

 

Yes, YL, was removed from her position by the the courts (and we all know which group they belong to) three weeks before the rest of the government was removed. That is correct, and what a huge difference it makes!

 

"And I truly believe you're wrong. There is no way the old elite would have accepted not being in charge during the upcoming transition."
And thats what the pro-ptp always say when the Shinawatra are slap with charges - must always be the old elite - never the fault of the corrupt individual! lol

 

Uh, are you seriously implying that the old guard had NOT stepped in either way???

[mike324]

2 minutes ago, MZurf said:

 

"And I'm not sure what I asked because you mix quotes from different posts."

Pretty sure I didn't, but you said I did - lets just leave it as it is 

 

"The difference is that it is possible to charge the politicians for wrongdoings but not the military. Agreed?"

Only possible to charge the politician after how long under democracy? Wait its never possible under PTP's democracy! Now you are starting to see how bad the democracy under the TRT/PTP was? Something only can be done when a push becomes a shove? I do agree with you the current PM has given himself and his buddies amnesty which is a dangerous path we are going down, but hey lets see what happens. Not as if were doing any better regarding to corruption (my sticking point). Yea I will be voting a big fat NO on sunday - if thats any warm news for you.

 

"Yes, YL, was removed from her position by the the courts (and we all know which group they belong to) three weeks before the rest of the government was removed. That is correct, and what a huge difference it makes!"

Like I said - stick to the facts! Most people get it wrong...just like how they like to brush off the corruption charges under the shinawatras saying its trump up charges.

 

"Uh, are you seriously implying that the old guard had NOT stepped in either way???"

Perhaps - but why don't we see a PM not break laws for a change for once before we move to the tune of old guards and old elites? 

 

Have a good evening...

 

[MZurf]

21 minutes ago, mike324 said:

"And I'm not sure what I asked because you mix quotes from different posts."

Pretty sure I didn't, but you said I did - lets just leave it as it is 

 

"The difference is that it is possible to charge the politicians for wrongdoings but not the military. Agreed?"

Only possible to charge the politician after how long under democracy? Wait its never possible under PTP's democracy! Now you are starting to see how bad the democracy under the TRT/PTP was? Something only can be done when a push becomes a shove? I do agree with you the current PM has given himself and his buddies amnesty which is a dangerous path we are going down, but hey lets see what happens. Not as if were doing any better regarding to corruption (my sticking point). Yea I will be voting a big fat NO on sunday - if thats any warm news for you.

 

"Yes, YL, was removed from her position by the the courts (and we all know which group they belong to) three weeks before the rest of the government was removed. That is correct, and what a huge difference it makes!"

Like I said - stick to the facts! Most people get it wrong...just like how they like to brush off the corruption charges under the shinawatras saying its trump up charges.

 

"Uh, are you seriously implying that the old guard had NOT stepped in either way???"

Perhaps - but why don't we see a PM not break laws for a change for once before we move to the tune of old guards and old elites? 

 

Have a good evening...

 

"Only possible to charge the politician after how long under democracy?"

 

Good question. In total how long has Thailand had elected governments since 1932? How many years under juntas, and how many coups? Important questions to consider when tallying the number of years Thai democracy has been allowed to evolve.

 

" Wait its never possible under PTP's democracy!"

I ws possible but highly unlikely. It is quite IMPOSSIBLE under the junta (to go after their own).

 

Now you are starting to see how bad the democracy under the TRT/PTP was?"

 

I have been living here since 1993. Yes, a lot of bad things happened under the Shins but there were checks and balances. There are non now.

 

"Perhaps - but why don't we see a PM not break laws for a change for once before we move to the tune of old guards and old elites?"

 

Don't understand your statement.

[mike324]

15 hours ago, MZurf said:

"Only possible to charge the politician after how long under democracy?"

 

Good question. In total how long has Thailand had elected governments since 1932? How many years under juntas, and how many coups? Important questions to consider when tallying the number of years Thai democracy has been allowed to evolve.

 

" Wait its never possible under PTP's democracy!"

I ws possible but highly unlikely. It is quite IMPOSSIBLE under the junta (to go after their own).

 

Now you are starting to see how bad the democracy under the TRT/PTP was?"

 

I have been living here since 1993. Yes, a lot of bad things happened under the Shins but there were checks and balances. There are non now.

 

"Perhaps - but why don't we see a PM not break laws for a change for once before we move to the tune of old guards and old elites?"

 

Don't understand your statement.

 

The point is that under Democracy, the corruption was not getting any better. I have personally experience many coups, so I know how different the last two was. The country is still functioning normally in the last two coups compare to pre 90s. But why not focus on what went wrong under Democracy for a change, whenever I point it out, you divert it back to coups. Even during TRT/PTP's reign, if people were to point out corruption, its always the same line of elite want to hold on to power. Why not Thaksin wants to hold on to power, hence he is defying the laws and corruption charges? Why do you think Thaksins promoted his police buddies to top positions around the country and state enterprises?

 

In this age and time, Thailands Democracy is evolving too slowly due to corruption. Not because that it takes time to evolve.

 

"I have been living here since 1993. Yes, a lot of bad things happened under the Shins but there were checks and balances. There are non now."

Yes there were checks and balances which were like law written in the air. Its no different than now.  People expected more from Democracy. Which brings to the next point.

 

"Perhaps - but why don't we see a PM not break laws for a change for once before we move to the tune of old guards and old elites?"

Don't understand your statement.

 

I would side with you regarding to your claim that the old elites want to hold on to power - IF Thaksin was not corrupt. Again if you want, I can discuss why Thaksin was corrupt - everything from his monopoly telecommunication license given to him by his army buddy, to government contracts awarded to his company when he was PM, to the Ratchada Land Case which he was ultimately sentenced, and many more. And same goes for Yinglucks failed leadership in the repeated fail Rice Scheme which effected the low income and put country in a mess. Did you forget the country ran out of money to give farmers and Yingluck needed to borrow billions more! So let me repeat that, if Thaksin and Yingluck did not mess up, I would be out there protesting about the coup.

Edited August 6, 2016 by mike324
typo

[Winniedapu]

1 hour ago, mike324 said:

 

The point is that under Democracy, the corruption was not getting any better. I have personally experience many coups, so I know how different the last two was. The country is still functioning normally in the last two coups compare to pre 90s. But why not focus on what went wrong under Democracy for a change, whenever I point it out, you divert it back to coups. Even during TRT/PTP's reign, if people were to point out corruption, its always the same line of elite want to hold on to power. Why not Thaksin wants to hold on to power, hence he is defying the laws and corruption charges? Why do you think Thaksins promoted his police buddies to top positions around the country and state enterprises?

 

In this age and time, Thailands Democracy is evolving too slowly due to corruption. Not because that it takes time to evolve.

 

"I have been living here since 1993. Yes, a lot of bad things happened under the Shins but there were checks and balances. There are non now."

Yes there were checks and balances which were like law written in the air. Its no different than now.  People expected more from Democracy. Which brings to the next point.

 

"Perhaps - but why don't we see a PM not break laws for a change for once before we move to the tune of old guards and old elites?"

Don't understand your statement.

 

I would side with you regarding to your claim that the old elites want to hold on to power - IF Thaksin was not corrupt. Again if you want, I can discuss why Thaksin was corrupt - everything from his monopoly telecommunication license given to him by his army buddy, to government contracts awarded to his company when he was PM, to the Ratchada Land Case which he was ultimately sentenced, and many more. And same goes for Yinglucks failed leadership in the repeated fail Rice Scheme which effected the low income and put country in a mess. Did you forget the country ran out of money to give farmers and Yingluck needed to borrow billions more! So let me repeat that, if Thaksin and Yingluck did not mess up, I would be out there protesting about the coup.

 

You miss what to me are 2 obvious points. 

 

The first is that all Thai governments have been demonstrably corrupt, the Chuan Leekpai government apparently rather less so than the others. Corruption as a reason for the loathing the elites feel for the Shinawatras seems obviously bogus and flimsy, they just weren't members of the approved club.

 

The second is that corruption is the excuse that the elites (most of whom themselves became very rich through dishonest or deceitful means, in my opinion) selected as the reason the get rid of Thaksin. This was a stone-cold certainty for them because anyone who is anyone in Thailand is justifiably vulnerable to accusations of corruption or worse. The reality appears to me to be that he was no more or less corrupt than than anyone else in the elites he craved to join and be respected by. The real reason for getting rid of him lay in the extent of the affection he generated from within the ranks of the poor, who had for decades been the principle wealth-creating engine-room of the elites, and who showed distinct signs of becoming less compliant and more aware of the extent to which they had been exploited for decades.

 

There's plentiful evidence of this among the available and proscribed sources.

 

Winnie

Edited August 6, 2016 by Winniedapu

[MZurf]

2 hours ago, mike324 said:

 

The point is that under Democracy, the corruption was not getting any better. I have personally experience many coups, so I know how different the last two was. The country is still functioning normally in the last two coups compare to pre 90s. But why not focus on what went wrong under Democracy for a change, whenever I point it out, you divert it back to coups. Even during TRT/PTP's reign, if people were to point out corruption, its always the same line of elite want to hold on to power. Why not Thaksin wants to hold on to power, hence he is defying the laws and corruption charges? Why do you think Thaksins promoted his police buddies to top positions around the country and state enterprises?

 

In this age and time, Thailands Democracy is evolving too slowly due to corruption. Not because that it takes time to evolve.

 

"I have been living here since 1993. Yes, a lot of bad things happened under the Shins but there were checks and balances. There are non now."

Yes there were checks and balances which were like law written in the air. Its no different than now.  People expected more from Democracy. Which brings to the next point.

 

"Perhaps - but why don't we see a PM not break laws for a change for once before we move to the tune of old guards and old elites?"

Don't understand your statement.

 

I would side with you regarding to your claim that the old elites want to hold on to power - IF Thaksin was not corrupt. Again if you want, I can discuss why Thaksin was corrupt - everything from his monopoly telecommunication license given to him by his army buddy, to government contracts awarded to his company when he was PM, to the Ratchada Land Case which he was ultimately sentenced, and many more. And same goes for Yinglucks failed leadership in the repeated fail Rice Scheme which effected the low income and put country in a mess. Did you forget the country ran out of money to give farmers and Yingluck needed to borrow billions more! So let me repeat that, if Thaksin and Yingluck did not mess up, I would be out there protesting about the coup.

No doubt Thaksin was corrupt, but my point/opinion is this:

 

Thailand as a society has the chance to evolve into something better only if people have the right to vote. Democracy under the various Shin administrations was seriously flawed , withs some of the most hideous ministers ever (Chalerm etc.) But, when people have a right to vote (and the Internet and social media makes it harder to hide all the crap that's going on) there is at least a chance for some improvement.

Apparently, some people hope the military will fix things but I can't for the life of me understand what makes them hopeful.  The Thai military has shown (and is showing) that they are there to protect their own (old elite) interests, and nothing that has happened for the last two + years indicate otherwise.

Do some of the junta supporters actually thing that the "PM" is some sort of Lee Kuan Yew in uniform - seriously?????

[mike324]

7 minutes ago, Winniedapu said:

 

You miss what to me are 2 obvious points. 

 

The first is that all Thai governments have been demonstrably corrupt, the Chuan Leekpai government apparently rather less so than the others.

 

The second is that corruption is the excuse that the elites (most of whom themselves became very rich through dishonest or deceitful means, in my opinion) selected corruption as the reason the get rid of Thaksin. The reality appears to me to be that he was no more or less corrupt than than anyone else in the elites he craved to join and be respected by. The real reason for getting rid of him lay in the extent of the affection he generated from within the ranks of the poor, who had for decades been the principle wealth-creating engine-room of the elites.

 

There's plentiful evidence of this among the available and proscribed sources.

 

Winnie

 

Winnie

 

I never said that only the PTP are corrupt. In fact I have stated that in previous posts/threads both parties are. Given the fact that TRT/PTP has been in office for the better part of the decade, the focus is naturally on them. The fact that under a democratically elected government the PM has flaunt the law so openly is simply absurd! Why is it that when citizens want the PM to be held accountable for his/her actions, it automatically become an "elites power grab" debate? Again, like I said in the above thread - I will side with your views IF the previous leader elected democratically did not have corruption charges. You will have to debate with me why these charges are bogus first!

 

Please classify who you consider as the elites, high income? bangkok folks? democrats? folks with royally endorse titles? For all I know elites seems to fit on both sides as well.

 

You agree he/she is corrupt, why can't you answer why nothing can be done about it?

 

[mike324]

1 hour ago, MZurf said:

No doubt Thaksin was corrupt, but my point/opinion is this:

 

Thailand as a society has the chance to evolve into something better only if people have the right to vote. Democracy under the various Shin administrations was seriously flawed , withs some of the most hideous ministers ever (Chalerm etc.) But, when people have a right to vote (and the Internet and social media makes it harder to hide all the crap that's going on) there is at least a chance for some improvement.

Apparently, some people hope the military will fix things but I can't for the life of me understand what makes them hopeful.  The Thai military has shown (and is showing) that they are there to protect their own (old elite) interests, and nothing that has happened for the last two + years indicate otherwise.

Do some of the junta supporters actually thing that the "PM" is some sort of Lee Kuan Yew in uniform - seriously?????

 

I really do see where you are coming from. Internet and social media does play a big role and make it harder to hide .... but with the multiple failed schemes under the PTP, social media didn't make any difference did it? Thais have thick skin. As a naturalize citizen, I was once a a very big fan of Thaksin, in fact I still am on some points. But he simply got too greedy and was openly flaunting his powers. Yes he did a lot of good that help the poor, but that does not make him excusable for the bad. You stand on the side that Democracy needs to let it run its course no matter what, but perhaps I'm here too long that I no longer feel that way. 

 

Thai Military are showing their iron grip on politics, that I agree. Nothing has happened for the last two years? In terms of Democracy and Freedom of Speech, you are correct. But in terms of other things, I would disagree - we see a crack down on the slave trade, corruption, and vice which is big news. I run a business here, so I can tell you that applications/documents that go through the government are moving a little faster, less hold ups for bribes. Education wise - we are no different than in the past decade. Economic wise - the entire world economy is in a limbo. Let's just see how elections under the military will look next year or the year after...that will be the real test.

 

I won't say my views are 100% right, maybe in another two years or so you can comeback to me and say "told you so" if the society erupts in chaos and corruption worsen under the current regime.

[MZurf]

4 minutes ago, mike324 said:

 

I really do see where you are coming from. Internet and social media does play a big role and make it harder to hide .... but with the multiple failed schemes under the PTP, social media didn't make any difference did it? Thais have thick skin. As a naturalize citizen, I was once a a very big fan of Thaksin, in fact I still am on some points. But he simply got too greedy and was openly flaunting his powers. Yes he did a lot of good that help the poor, but that does not make him excusable for the bad. You stand on the side that Democracy needs to let it run its course no matter what, but perhaps I'm here too long that I no longer feel that way. 

 

Thai Military are showing their iron grip on politics, that I agree. Nothing has happened for the last two years? In terms of Democracy and Freedom of Speech, you are correct. But in terms of other things, I would disagree - we see a crack down on the slave trade, corruption, and vice which is big news. I run a business here, so I can tell you that applications/documents that go through the government are moving a little faster, less hold ups for bribes. Education wise - we are no different than in the past decade. Economic wise - the entire world economy is in a limbo. Let's just see how elections under the military will look next year or the year after...that will be the real test.

 

I won't say my views are 100% right, maybe in another two years or so you can comeback to me and say "told you so" if the society erupts in chaos and corruption worsen under the current regime.

We'll see who is right. My hope is that Thailand will evolve into something better than it is today. However this is done is not really important. I just don't see this happening with a bunch of ultra-conservative, ultra-royalist army officers in charge. Especially with someone at the helm who very soon after the coup warned off anyone looking into his, his family and associates finances.

The only reason for this I can see is that he has something to hide. Maybe one of the junta supporters can come up with an alternative interpretation?