Beach bans on the burkini in France sparks widespread debate

[Zyxel]

 Everybody should understand that at the moment there is no rational in all this. It is no coincidence that burkini ban started on Cannes beach. Cannes is about 30 km away from Nice where 84 men, women and children were crushed to death by a truck driven by a muslim extremist a couple of weeks ago. In my opinion Muslims in that area should adopt a low profile for a while.

  If I remember well somebody wanted to open an islamic cultural center or something similar very near where the New York Twin Towers went down only a couple of years after and many people went up in arms.

   As a fundamentalist and extremist atheist I am in favor of the ban, at least for the time being.  Let the wounds heal first.

[SgtRock]

31 minutes ago, GuestHouse said:

 

I have quoted what you have said, word for word and proved in to be completely wrong, word for word. That you are unable to man up and admit the blatantly obvious mistakes in your argument is perhaps the best argument against anything you say. 

 

 

Care to show me where this says a burkini covers the face ?

 

Quote

1. France is currently still under a State of Emergency. A burkini gives someone the opportunity to disguise their facial features very easily.

A Burqini does not cover the wearer's face, it does not give the wearer the opportunity to disguise their facial features any more than a bikini does. Your claim was ungrounded nonsense. 

 

It makes you look rather foolish when you claim that a head covering does not give someone the opportunity to easily disguise their facial features. Still waiting on an answer as to how many hours of suspect recognition you have sat through. What was that ? None ?

 

Quote

Now you want to dodge the FACT that a woman was refused entry to a swimming pool in FRANCE one year before the French enacted the burqa ban, because of what, a swimming pool is not a beach?

 

It may have escaped your attention but a swimming pool is not beach. Public swimming pools are not really part of the topic.

 

You can quote all you want. The fact that you cannot understand it is your problem, not mine.

 

Did you get a date of when the French burqa ban was actually enforced after it become law in 2010 and was then dragged through the ECJ / ECHR ?

 

I believe it was 2015, but I am sure that you know different.

Edited August 19, 2016 by SgtRock
Addition

[GeorgesAbitbol]

5 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

 

 

Did you get a date of when the French burqa ban was actually enforced after it become law in 2010 and was then dragged through the ECJ / ECHR ?

 

I believe it was 2015, but I am sure that you know different.

Law was voted in 2010, enforced in 2011. It apply to Burqa and anything which may cover the whole face, not only religion related.

End of 2014: around 1,300 people has been convicted

[SgtRock]

19 minutes ago, farcanell said:

 

 

.... What you said, is indeed in black and white.... Guesthouse added a bit of blue for true.

 

you wanted to make two points, both were erroneous...., as shown.... But there was the rider comment, as well "read into that what you will."

 

Then came deflection.

 

realistically... A man with a motorbike helmet can hide his identity more effectively than a woman in a burkini.... And as men are more often involved in violent acts.... It makes more far more sense to ban motorbike helmets with full face coverings, than a costume that actually allows for a modicum of freedom for Muslim women

 

and realistically, if the burkini was first introduced / designed in 2003, and already in contention in France in 2009, who's to actually say when it was first used there.... But either way, it was definitely around before the burka ban... So reading into that, WHAT I WILL, invites me to suspect, and even suggest, that you are intolerant and suppressive to woman and their civil liberties... 

 

Following this is intelligent bit... Thank goodness.

 

i checked both the AJ site ( thanks Zendo) and the daily mail article ( daily fail, I believe you labeled it), which quoted figures from an amnesty international poll, which were, quite frankly, scary and disturbing (hopefully you don't have a derogatory term for amnesty international, as well) and definitely more relevant towards the publics perception of woman and rape, in general, than the AJ story... But this is an aside from your definitive claims.

 

but by all means... Redefine your claims... Change your POV... that's progress from debate, which i wholeheartedly encourage, per my byline footer.

 

Stunning.

 

Now perhaps you can enlighten us all as to how many motorcycle helmets are worn on public beaches every day.

 

I have no need to change my POV. But if you believe the 2 points I made are erroneous perhaps  you should identify what parts are erroneous and supply independent sources that support your assertion.

 

Quote

WHAT I WILL, invites me to suspect, and even suggest, that you are intolerant and suppressive to woman and their civil liberties... 

 

 

If you had walked even 10 paces in my boots. You would know what a stupid and ignorant statement that really is.

[GuestHouse]

1 minute ago, SgtRock said:

 

Care to show me where this says a burkini covers the face ?

 

 

It makes you look rather foolish when you claim that a head covering does not give someone the opportunity to easily disguise their facial features. Still waiting on an answer as to how many hours of suspect recognition you have sat through. What was that ? None ?

 

 

It may have escaped your attention but a swimming pool is not beach. Public swimming pools are not really part of the topic.

 

You can quote all you want. The fact that you cannot understand it is your problem, not mine.

 

You made the claim and I once gain quote your words:

 

YOUR STATEMENT A burkini gives someone the opportunity to disguise their facial features very easily.

 

FACT Burqinis do not provide any cover of the wearer's face - You with 'How many hours sitting through suspect recognition?' is anyone's guess perhaps can explain how a garment that does not cover the wearer's face gives them the opportunity to very easily disguise their facial features? Over to you Sgt - Explain. 

 

YOUR STATEMENT This burkini has only made an appearance in France since the French banned full face coverings. Read into that what you will.

  

FACT A woman was refused entry to a public swimming pool in FRANCE one full year before the French government passed the law banning Burqa's in FRANCE.

Your claim that the Burqini only made an appear rant in France since the French banned full face coverings is demonstrably hogwash. 

 

Do the right thing Sgt. Own up or be owned. 

 

 

[GeorgesAbitbol]

9 minutes ago, GuestHouse said:

 

You made the claim and I once gain quote your words:

 

YOUR STATEMENT A burkini gives someone the opportunity to disguise their facial features very easily.

 

FACT Burqinis do not provide any cover of the wearer's face - You with 'How many hours sitting through suspect recognition?' is anyone's guess perhaps can explain how a garment that does not cover the wearer's face gives them the opportunity to very easily disguise their facial features? Over to you Sgt - Explain. 

 

YOUR STATEMENT This burkini has only made an appearance in France since the French banned full face coverings. Read into that what you will.

  

FACT A woman was refused entry to a public swimming pool in FRANCE one full year before the French government passed the law banning Burqa's in FRANCE.

Your claim that the Burqini only made an appear rant in France since the French banned full face coverings is demonstrably hogwash. 

 

Do the right thing Sgt. Own up or be owned. 

 

 

Face /facial feature :  The surface of the front of the head from the top of the forehead to the base of the chin and from ear to ear.

Burkini does not cover the face, so it does not hide the facial features. Burqa and skii mask cover facial features.

The anti-burqa law applies to anybody covering his FACE and it can be a burqa, helmet...etc.. but Burkini does not fit in.

 

Burqa law: 2010, enforced 2011, 1300 convicted of 150Euro fine from 2011 until 2014.

Edited August 19, 2016 by GeorgesAbitbol
typo

[GuestHouse]

18 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

Did you get a date of when the French burqa ban was actually enforced after it become law in 2010 and was then dragged through the ECJ / ECHR ?

 

I believe it was 2015, but I am sure that you know different.

 

In respect of the statement that you made regarding the Burqini , here it is again:

 

YOUR STATEMENT: This burkini has only made an appearance in France since the French banned full face coverings. Read into that what you will.

 

It does not matter if the ban came into force in 2010 or 2015, what matters is YOU stated This burkini has only made an appearance in France since the French banned full face coverings.

 

I have given you a link to a BBC report of a woman being refused entry to a public swimming pool IN FRANCE in 2009.

 

The swimming pool was in France and the date of the incident was 2009 - so Burqini, in France, in 2009 before the French banned full face coverings. 

 

It really does not get simpler than that. 

 

 

 

 

[farcanell]

58 minutes ago, Zyxel said:

 Everybody should understand that at the moment there is no rational in all this. It is no coincidence that burkini ban started on Cannes beach. Cannes is about 30 km away from Nice where 84 men, women and children were crushed to death by a truck driven by a muslim extremist a couple of weeks ago. In my opinion Muslims in that area should adopt a low profile for a while.

  If I remember well somebody wanted to open an islamic cultural center or something similar very near where the New York Twin Towers went down only a couple of years after and many people went up in arms.

   As a fundamentalist and extremist atheist I am in favor of the ban, at least for the time being.  Let the wounds heal first.

 

Well said...., and more to the heart of the problem ?

[SgtRock]

15 minutes ago, GuestHouse said:

 

In respect of the statement that you made regarding the Burqini , here it is again:

 

YOUR STATEMENT: This burkini has only made an appearance in France since the French banned full face coverings. Read into that what you will.

 

It does not matter if the ban came into force in 2010 or 2015, what matters is YOU stated This burkini has only made an appearance in France since the French banned full face coverings.

 

I have given you a link to a BBC report of a woman being refused entry to a public swimming pool IN FRANCE in 2009.

 

The swimming pool was in France and the date of the incident was 2009 - so Burqini, in France, in 2009 before the French banned full face coverings. 

 

It really does not get simpler than that. 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually it was the French Mayor that made that statement on AJ, which you would have seen if you had bothered to watch it at the link provided after I had made the post.

 

I will apologise for not making that abundantly clear.

 

Just as a solitary swallow does not make a summer, one isolated incident at a swimming pool in 2009 does not equate to a major problem.

 

Again, if you watch the link. You will see it is the French Mayor, who makes it abundantly clear that this burkini nonsense was not an issue until the face covering ban came into effect.

 

Now if you have such an issue with what the French Authorities ban, why not do everyone a favour and go and have it out with the French Authorities.

 

Instead of rattling your keyboard and looking rather foolish when you read imaginary information that has not even been written.

 

You found where I said burkini's covered the face yet ? Thought not. You will not find what has not been written.

[GuestHouse]

33 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Actually it was the French Mayor that made that statement on AJ, which you would have seen if you had bothered to watch it at the link provided after I had made the post.

 

I will apologise for not making that abundantly clear.

 

Just as a solitary swallow does not make a summer, one isolated incident at a swimming pool in 2009 does not equate to a major problem.

 

Again, if you watch the link. You will see it is the French Mayor, who makes it abundantly clear that this burkini nonsense was not an issue until the face covering ban came into effect.

 

Now if you have such an issue with what the French Authorities ban, why not do everyone a favour and go and have it out with the French Authorities.

 

Instead of rattling your keyboard and looking rather foolish when you read imaginary information that has not even been written.

 

You found where I said burkini's covered the face yet ? Thought not. You will not find what has not been written.

 

 

At last we are getting somewhere:

 

The nonsense claims you made about when the Burqini started to turn up in France have been proven wrong, and once proven wrong you admit them to being the claims of someone else that you have erroneously quoted without correctly attributing them to their source (or checking the veracity of the claime).

 

But you have apologized for your error and I of course accept your apology with the same grace it was given.

 

This only leaves your claim that the A burkini gives someone the opportunity to disguise their facial features very easily.

 

Can you first confirm that you did say this and it is not a quotation from someone else?

 

Then explain how the Burqini gives the wearer opportunity to disguise their facial features very easily ?

 

 

 

 

[Zendo]

This is so sad, we are in 2016 and it looks like people want to live in middle ages..

 

All Religions and specially Islam are not made to liberate people, but to enslave them into something dangerous for humanity :

I would like to quote some islamic texts that I am sure will make you laugh :

 

Quote

Before getting into the details, first ask yourself if the trip is really necessary. The code says that a person must relieve themselves as infrequently as possible, as the natural functions of the body are sinful and unclean.

If you really have to go, before entering the toilet you are supposed to pray:

Bismillaah, Allaahumma inee a'uudhu bika minal khubthi wal khabaaith. "In the name of Allah, O Allah! I seek refuge with You from all offensive and wicked things (evil deeds and evil spirits)."

 

http://toilet-guru.com/islamic.php

 

Imagine then what you have to do when you masturbate yourself or touching the worst thing on earth : a women !

 

by the way.. you should never touch you penis with your right hand.. lesson learned ?? so be careful now  and enjoy all this jewels that are now imported worldwide !

[farcanell]

4 minutes ago, Zendo said:

This is so sad, we are in 2016 and it looks like people want to live in middle ages..

 

All Religions and specially Islam are not made to liberate people, but to enslave them into something dangerous for humanity :

I would like to quote some islamic texts that I am sure will make you laugh :

 

 

http://toilet-guru.com/islamic.php

 

Imagine then what you have to do when you masturbate yourself or touching the worst thing on earth : a women !

 

by the way.. you should never touch you penis with your right hand.. lesson learned ?? so be careful now  and enjoy all this jewels that are now imported worldwide !

 

Im really starting to see you for the funny bugger you are 5555

[Zendo]

Anyway,

 

I ask ALL women in France, muslims or not, to WEAR this XXXing burkinis and got this 38 euros bill (not enough, so please do it several times) so maybe with a lot of effort this stupid billionaire that already did that for the burkas will be less rich and we'll never hear of him again :

 

Rachix Nezzaz has offered to pay penalties for three women who have all been fined £30 for breaking the council by-law

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/france-fines-three-muslim-women-8651833

[SgtRock]

31 minutes ago, GuestHouse said:

 

 

At last we are getting somewhere:

 

The nonsense claims you made about when the Burqini started to turn up in France have been proven wrong, and once proven wrong you admit them to being the claims of someone else that you have erroneously quoted without correctly attributing them to their source (or checking the veracity of the claime).

 

But you have apologized for your error and I of course accept your apology with the same grace it was given.

 

This only leaves your claim that the A burkini gives someone the opportunity to disguise their facial features very easily.

 

Can you first confirm that you did say this and it is not a quotation from someone else?

 

Then explain how the Burqini gives the wearer opportunity to disguise their facial features very easily ?

 

 

 

 

 

Listen, lets get something straight here and now before you even attempt to twist any more of my words.

 

I made no claim whatsoever as to when the burkini turned up in France. Just like I never claimed that a burkini covered the face. In fact, I could not give a damn when it turned up in France. So my nonsense claim, yet again, is nothing more than a figment of your imagination. 

 

If you have a problem with the quote directly from the mouth of the French Mayor on AJ, take it up with that French Mayor. I have held my hand up to not quoting it direct from him. An oversight on my part.

 

Yes I did say

 

Quote

A burkini gives someone the opportunity to disguise their facial features very easily.

 

What I did not say was that a burkini covers the face. Have you got that ? It is very simple.

 

I will ask you again. What training have you had in suspect recognition ?  None, obviously or you would already know the answer.

 

I will break it down a little bit for you, just to make it easier for you. Hair, ears, eyes and shape of face are just a few recognition features. When these are hidden by something it makes recognition even more difficult. Add in eyewear, that would be commonly be found on a beach and recognition becomes even more difficult.

 

Not rocket science.

 

Anything else that you think might be erroneous on my part that I can happily educate you on ?

Edited August 19, 2016 by SgtRock

[Zendo]

This morning I listen to RTL, French Radio, discussion between a normal French muslim mother and a guy who  own the Anti-islamophibic association, this was really sad...

 

He keep on saying : LAW is not tolorating this.. FREEDOM for Women who wants to wear burka-bikinis=burkinis, France allowed it ! We'll sue theses mayors for that, go to the European court..Etc..

 

And Fatima was trying to explain to him that she feels bad to see that happening, she's muslims, not wearing specials costumes and find it provocating to see French beaches invaded by this kind of things.. Whenever she see a women enslaved in this suits she goes for talk and try to explain why she thinks it's bad.. but He keeps on arguing that LAW is LAW, you cannot have feelings, you cannot think about it... LET PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT, and of course what he wants it's to see French racists go for presidency and destroy all in few weeks.

 

But then what will happen, you know laws can be changed by government... sad sad sad future for democracy and freedom then.

 

 

[Zendo]

SgtRock & GuestHouse

 

you start to be really boring.. it looks like a competition for the biggest penis

[SgtRock]

Just now, Zendo said:

SgtRock & GuestHouse

 

you start to be really boring.. it looks like a competition for the biggest penis

 

 

I would answer that, but it would probably get me a holiday 

[Zendo]

8 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

 

I would answer that, but it would probably get me a holiday 

 

that would be nice.. take some rest.. you deserve it

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, SgtRock said:

 

Stunning.

 

Now perhaps you can enlighten us all as to how many motorcycle helmets are worn on public beaches every day.

 

I have no need to change my POV. But if you believe the 2 points I made are erroneous perhaps  you should identify what parts are erroneous and supply independent sources that support your assertion.

 

 

 

If you had walked even 10 paces in my boots. You would know what a stupid and ignorant statement that really is.

 

Stunning? Yes

 

I think it was you who made comments about the difference between reading and understanding, wasn't it?... If not... Never mind, but it is herein an applicable statement.

 

my point about the motorbike helmet is about the ease of disguise it enables.... I care not where... (Sorry, I thought that obvious)... The comment was made, because you seem concerned about burkinis disguising the wearers identity... Whilst pointing out, also, that the helmet disguised male, is more likely an object to be feared.

 

 Which, in your mind, is the worse of the two "evils", with respect to the whole disguise argument?

 

And.... i really really really cannot see any point in pointing out where your two points are erroneous.... But would point out that these errors have already been repeatedly pointed out to you, but you pointedly refuse to accept these points... Hopefully you see my point.

 

as to " if I had walked ten paces in your boots".... ... I suspect I would have very smelly feet... Not least because your ideology seems repugnant to me.... As your posts seem to advocate denying Muslim women, who are doing nothing whatsoever to harm others, by wearing a  burkini, the civil liberties they are entitled to under the existing laws of the country.

 

 

 

 

 

[SgtRock]

Quote

my point about the motorbike helmet is about the ease of disguise it enables.... I care not where... (Sorry, I thought that obvious)... The comment was made, because you seem concerned about burkinis disguising the wearers identity... Whilst pointing out, also, that the helmet disguised male, is more likely an object to be feared.

 

 

If you had read previous posts of mine. I have also highlighted that wherever a motorcycle helmet is banned, so should any other form of head covering.

 

But lets stick to the topic. I cannot recall ever seeing anyone wearing a motorcycle helmet on a public beach.

 

Have you ?

[SgtRock]

10 minutes ago, Zendo said:

 

that would be nice.. take some rest.. you deserve it

 

You will of course forgive me if I ignore your advice 

[Zendo]

Helmet on the Beach ?? yes that happens often in FRANCE !! radicalist motorkibes lovers who eat, sleep and <deleted> on their bikes never drop them off !

 

 

also horse riders do it, that's the proof !

[Zendo]

3 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

You will of course forgive me if I ignore your advice 

 

Brothers and Sisters, you are all forgiven !! may the PEACE be with you, and the burkinis on your women if it is what they want..

 

One more "Advice" : if that is the case, please go for an head/brain check for her as quick as possible !

[thaibeachlovers]

On 17 สิงหาคม 2559 at 6:29 PM, Opl said:

If you are from muslim culture and consider that women should not go around in their everyday life clothed like any other western woman, then I'm entiled to think that you have little consideration for women dressed "western style".

I am a woman, live in France and I feel uncomfortable anytime I pass by a woman veiled from head to toes.

If you go to the beach in France, you know you will find people half nude, if it's not correct for you ,  don't mix - it's a contradiction.

 

 

IMO wearing anything resembling a burka in a western country is a political statement, and it does make people feel "uncomfortable". The headscarf is banned in public institutions of France, certainly in schools as being a counter secular expression, so banning similar on the beach is in order. We have been told many times that the burka is Islamic dress ( it is not ), but they can't have it both ways. If wearing a cover up ( as the Victorians did ) is a social thing and not religious, it would be OK, but they claim it is for religious reasons.

[SgtRock]

11 minutes ago, Zendo said:

Helmet on the Beach ?? yes that happens often in FRANCE !! radicalist motorkibes lovers who eat, sleep and <deleted> on their bikes never drop them off !

 

 

also horse riders do it, that's the proof !

 

Taking things just a stretch too far now. Horse riders indeed 

[farcanell]

1 minute ago, SgtRock said:

 

If you had read previous posts of mine. I have also highlighted that wherever a motorcycle helmet is banned, so should any other form of head covering.

 

But lets stick to the topic. I cannot recall ever seeing anyone wearing a motorcycle helmet on a public beach.

 

Have you ?

 

So?...... we agree on the helmet issue then?

 

apart from your obvious misunderstanding about the fact that it matters not where the disguise is used, but that it is a more effective disguise than that afforded by a burkini. 

 

And... Just for you.... I have seen seen helmets (admittedly not motorbike helmets, but from the point of view of disguise, this matters not, IMO) on beachs many many times.... not nessesarily always full face, but often with sunnies included

 

think paragliding/ sailing... Jet skis... Etc.... I have myself landed my parachute on a beach, many times over, with almost no flesh visible at all (boots, jumpsuit, gloves, goggles, full helmet with chin cup)

 

conversely, until this article popped up, I had never even heard of a burkini.

 

something to think on, when suggesting walking in others boots.

[farcanell]

4 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Taking things just a stretch too far now. Horse riders indeed 

 

Yes... But it's as funny as puck! 

[Zendo]

Please focus on the topic gentlemen, by the way.. where are the women ? we need their advice to make this thread a bit more intelligent.

 

Burkinis or not burkinis ?  Sweat or Flesh ? Strict Religion enslaving women or Freedom for girls  ?

But Freedom with education, talk to them, explain them.. and if there is one cell still working in thoses brains.. they'll drop this sect for sure !

[SgtRock]

2 minutes ago, farcanell said:

 

So?...... we agree on the helmet issue then?

 

apart from your obvious misunderstanding about the fact that it matters not where the disguise is used, but that it is a more effective disguise than that afforded by a burkini. 

 

And... Just for you.... I have seen seen helmets (admittedly not motorbike helmets, but from the point of view of disguise, this matters not, IMO) on beachs many many times.... not nessesarily always full face, but often with sunnies included

 

think paragliding/ sailing... Jet skis... Etc.... I have myself landed my parachute on a beach, many times over, with almost no flesh visible at all (boots, jumpsuit, gloves, goggles, full helmet with chin cup)

 

conversely, until this article popped up, I had never even heard of a burkini.

 

something to think on, when suggesting walking in others boots.

 

There are many activities associated with a beach that requires a mandatory wearing of safety equipment, including helmets.

 

Totally separate issue.

 

Something else to think on. 2016 and you are just hearing about a burkini in this article. Now why would that be ? Perhaps because it was never an issue before 2016.

 

I would hope that your beach drop in full jump gear was not for nefarious activities. Which cannot be said for head coverings of a certain type that have been used many times for nefarious activities, not always associated with beaches.

[dageurreotype]

On 8/17/2016 at 6:12 AM, canuckamuck said:

Good for France for pushing back and trying to preserve their culture of freedom. The Burka is a form of oppression and should be resisted at every turn by freedom loving people

 

It's odd that I don't find anything offensive about the pictured burkini'd woman, though do agree with the poster who said if they (muslims) find being scantily clad offensive, why are they at a Western beach? And also don't think twice about being served in my local 7/11 or market place here in a muslim majority area of Phuket, but do take umbrage a the hordes of 'letterboxes' and 16th century white robed men in Londonistan. Perhaps it's a question of everything having it's place. And a murder of crows on Wapping High Street isn't one of them.