Bangkok-Chiang Mai high speed train project makes headway

[Rorri]

12 hours ago, Toscano said:

My concern is that Thailand only has narrow gauge track , that would likely have to be replaced with broad gauge .  Another concern would be the maintenance of the track as high speed accidents would be deadly .  The distances seem rather short to justify the expense  I feel that an updated broad gauge two way regular railway would serve the purpose better , as well as adapting to freight trains .  As has been suggested , It might be cheaper and quicker to fly .

I don't think distance is the issue, Japan has them and is much smaller, however  the cost is too high for Thailand, not only the initial  project, but ongoing maintenance and how well it will be patronaged.

[Mitker]

7 hours ago, swerver said:

 

No it was NOT initiated by the Thaksin clique. The Thaksin clique changed it from going to Laos with onward highspeed rail connections into China, to Changmai ONLY.

 

but you have to admit the visionary capacity of YL

after all, she's the one who could spot the priorities by pointing the necessity of a HST to carry vegetables from the North to the capital

 

respects

[aussieinthailand]

17 hours ago, colinneil said:

Due to the high investment costs and large brown envelopes the project has been revised.

If I recall  and please correct me if I'm wrong.  The Yingluk government had plan's with a China/Vietnam linked HSR service budgeted at 2 trillion BHT,  But the junta canceled it saying it would raise the national debit to unacceptable levels then turns around and approves infrastructure plans of 3 trillion BHT.

Any one out there got the official figures for the Yingluk government HSR project and the junta HSR project begets??? 

Would be nice to compare X amount's of money per klm's for both governments for the project...  and just how big the brown envelopes are.

As for calling them HSR,,,   well if they are only going to pull 120/140 klm's then I don't think they are HSR, not when Japan's HSR Shinkansen pulls 300klm's.

 

[Ricardo]

9 hours ago, swerver said:

 

No it was NOT initiated by the Thaksin clique. The Thaksin clique changed it from going to Laos with onward highspeed rail connections into China, to Changmai ONLY.

 

IIRC the medium-speed standard-guage freight-line, from Southern-China via Laos & Isaan to Laem-Chabang & Map-ta-Phut is a Chinese project, which they now hope the Thais will pay for the Thai-section of  ...  this has grown out of vague plans for many years for some sort of freight-link from China down to Singapore.

 

While former-PM Yingluck's bright idea was for a network of high-speed standard-guage passenger-lines (hence vote-winning) includes routes from Bangkok  to Isaan, Rayong, the deep-South & her home-town of Chiang Mai, although the latter was only as far as P'lok with the private-sector supposedly going to complete it the rest of the way.

 

That would replace much of the current SRT-network, where progress on a twenty-year-plus scheme to gradually dual their often-single-track metre-guage  lines, that one is gradually proceeding but delayed by long-term under-funding.

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by Ricardo

[BSJ]

Has anyone bothered to look at Thailand's GDP....tax revenues???   Sure they don't have the money to fund it, but do they have the money to pay back the money they borrow?

[fish monger]

15 hours ago, Mickmouse1 said:

There are many companies working on this project in collaboration with foreign consultancy firms from Germany and the USA.As I understand it everything is indeed going ahead with another massive resettlement project on paper only but imminent which will see all those living along the river in bkk being evicted for a beautiful promenades. 

So....It's being designed and built with the help of FORIEGNERS........I see. So I guess that nationalist doesn't mind...? You know....that idiot that thinks the new tower is illegal........

[fish monger]

13 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

 

IIRC the medium-speed standard-guage freight-line, from Southern-China via Laos & Isaan to Laem-Chabang & Map-ta-Phut is a Chinese project, which they now hope the Thais will pay for the Thai-section of  ...  this has grown out of vague plans for many years for some sort of freight-link from China down to Singapore.

 

While former-PM Yingluck's bright idea was for a network of high-speed standard-guage passenger-lines (hence vote-winning) includes routes from Bangkok  to Isaan, Rayong, the deep-South & her home-town of Chiang Mai, although the latter was only as far as P'lok with the private-sector supposedly going to complete it the rest of the way.

 

That would replace much of the current SRT-network, where progress on a twenty-year-plus scheme to gradually dual their often-single-track metre-guage  lines, that one is gradually proceeding but delayed by long-term under-funding.

 

Please stop it with the HENCE VOTE WINNING crap....It's old and serves no purpose here....!  Who, at this point even cares about Thaksin or Yingluk or what they did or didn't do.........Try thinking forward, not backward. And please name ONE politico, anywhere in the world, that doesn't  promise things to obtain votes...PLEASE name one....!

Edited September 4, 2016 by fish monger

[Ricardo]

Just now, fish monger said:

Please stop it with the HENCE VOTE WINNING crap....It's old and serves no purpose here....!  Who, at this point even cares about Thaksin or Yingluk or what they did or didn't do.........Try thinking forward, not backward.

 

Sorry, but I still have some respect for the facts, others might not. I've been watching this project since I arrived, a dozen years ago.

 

I think it's interesting, to see how a sensible Chinese-financed idea to move containerised-exports from southern-China to less-busy ports, initially to Singapore but now to Laem-Chabang, has morphed over time into a Thai-financed domestic passenger-only network, and to try to work out how & why this has happened.

 

I do support the idea of a Chinese-freight-line, if they (who will benefit from it) are willing to pay for it, and I can quite see the point of running a few passenger-trains along it, that would improve transport-links to Isaan, if the Thais will pay for the extra stations & rolling-stock required.

 

Every new government, not just the two people you mention, has had its own views on rail-transport in Thailand, a cynic might say they're influenced by the possible brown-envelopes. What is happening now is affected by what happened in the past, and trends will continue to change into the future.

 

This may become apparent to you when you've been posting here for longer than one month. Try thinking long-term for a change.

[chainarong]

14 hours ago, trainman34014 said:

More words.  Start the dirt flying and we might start believing something is gonna happen.   Meanwhile; costs are rising by huge amounts with every hour that passes and i still don't see the results of any decent route feasibility studies linked to estimated costings...just figures plucked out of the air.

Costs for High speed: China $17 million USD per Kilometre, EU  25 to 35 Million USD per kilometre , US $ 55 million per kilometre , REF Time mag July issue , Tiled , " Whatever You do Don't Mention High Speed trains". Regards C

[burgdawg]

...the CM to BKK and Bkk to Nong Khai railroad projects WILL happen. Just not in anyone's lifetime who is currently alive. The rural Chinese people cannot afford a ticket aboard the pricey high speed rr lines in China. Thankfully, the 3rd class railroad they grew up with was not dismantled and still carries the lion's share of China friegh as well a citizens during Lunar New Year, etc.

 

Can Somchai and Wanda affors a train ticket? Uh No---What for?---kon Tai would rather take the bus anyday!

Thailand has First Rate Bus Service, imho. The Tai Gov't would be better off building an extra truck lane on hills that clogs with lorries and slow trucks and buses during hill climbs.

 

But all govvies the world over tend to invest in projects that are stupid and wildly expensive.

HyperLoop between LA and SFO anyone? Beyond bonebrain dead.....

 

[timber]

Can put in one track that can accommodate two gauges?

[ratcatcher]

7 minutes ago, timber said:

Can put in one track that can accommodate two gauges?

Can you elucidate that idea?

[timber]

Can put in one track that can accommodate two gauges?

Put in one extra track so you have three tracks, so it can accommodate either the wide gauge

or the narrow gauge.  Could be a scheduling night mare, or maybe not.

[lordblackader]

16 hours ago, CGW said:

I have never done the trip by train, but have driven quite a few times, some beautiful countryside to pass through, would imagine one of the challenges would be the terrain, some sizeable mountains to go around.

 

Quite a few oil/gas wells in Phitsanaluk area , Northern Thailand's oil reserves are held there controlled by - you guessed it - the military!

 

They could start by improving the road, the drive to Phitsanoluk is a pain from Chiang Mai, everything from decent road into mountain tracks in between.

[ratcatcher]

Just now, timber said:

Can put in one track that can accommodate two gauges?

Put in one extra track so you have three tracks, so it can accommodate either the wide gauge

or the narrow gauge.  Could be a scheduling night mare, or maybe not.

That has been done and is in use in several countries, among them Australia. It is regarded as inefficient, so do not expect it here (surprisingly?)  It will still be some years before double track from Bangkok to Chiang Mai is in existence, whether it be the present metre gauge or a separate HST system. Double tracking is expensive, they will need to tunnel through several "mountain" ranges when in the northern region nearing C.M. Holding of one's breath is inadvisable in this topic.

[apalink_thailand]

22 hours ago, tartempion said:

I don't get it.

It will be cheaper and faster to fly....

Presumably, this track is part of the entire planned project for wide gauge rail running from Myanmar to Vietnam and also up into China.  Thailand rail system is very old fashioned (narrow gauge rail) and trains cannot pass out of Thailand to neighbouring countries track with cargo, largely due to this fact. I am pretty sure the proposed rail is not just for people carrying.

[ratcatcher]

13 minutes ago, apalink_thailand said:

Presumably, this track is part of the entire planned project for wide gauge rail running from Myanmar to Vietnam and also up into China.  Thailand rail system is very old fashioned (narrow gauge rail) and trains cannot pass out of Thailand to neighbouring countries track with cargo, largely due to this fact. I am pretty sure the proposed rail is not just for people carrying.

At this time, the Malaysian railway from the Thai border to Singapore uses the metre gauge track as opposed to narrow gauge. Myanmar's railway in poor condition uses metre gauge.  Cambodia has just over 600km of metre gauge. There are no connections between Thai/Myanmar or Thai/Cambodia, yet. What you refer to as "wide gauge" is actually called "standard gauge", differentiating it from "broad gauge" which is widely used in India and neighboring countries along with standard gauge, metre gauge and narrow gauge. Most of Viet Nam's railways use metre gauge with some standard gauge.

This whole S.E.Asia railway system needs a revamp, and if properly organised, (a major hurdle) has great potential with the masters in Beijing calling many of the shots, however we have seen how easily these major projects get announced and then quietly fade away for months/years at a time... 

[Shawn0000]

22 hours ago, tartempion said:

I don't get it.

It will be cheaper and faster to fly....

 

It should only take about 4 hours to Chiang Mai, by plane it is a one hour flight, at least an hour in the airport plus getting to and from the airports, about the same amount of time for most people, and obviously a train holds a lot more people and should cost less for a ticket, plus they trains are much less polluting.

[Mook23]

21 hours ago, Sphere said:

Does anyone know how much these high-speed train journeys are going to cost? 

 

Are the fares going to be within the means of your average Somchai?

No.  But then somchai isn't supposed to take the hs train but the free 4:27am suhhhhlow train.  555

[Ricardo]

6 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

It should only take about 4 hours to Chiang Mai, by plane it is a one hour flight, at least an hour in the airport plus getting to and from the airports, about the same amount of time for most people, and obviously a train holds a lot more people and should cost less for a ticket, plus they trains are much less polluting.

 

Given that the high-speed section proposed at-present will only run to Phitsanulok, until the mountains & difficult country start, I'd love to see a credible source for a total end-to-end journey-time of only 4 hours ?  As opposed to a politician's pipe-dream/promise.

 

The current line, which will continue to be used from Phitsanulok to Chiang Mai, takes 7-9 hours for that section of the journey alone !

 

 

OK one might improve upon that a bit, by using new motive-power & rolling-stock, but it really would need a totally new line all-the-way to achieve substantially better.

 

If ever a second medium-speed freight-line to Southern-China were required/built, following the current route to Den Chai & then heading off for the corner of Laos & on to China, then perhaps a high-speed passenger/freight branch off that might achieve reasonable overall-times to Chiang Mai  ...  but it's all a very long way in the future.

 

I agree that the capital-cost of a plane is high, but then again new high-speed (or even medium-speed) railways are too, and the plane has the advantage of being able to be switched to other routes (or even countries), if the commercial-return on one particular route is unattractive. A railway is a fixed-asset.

 

 

[NeoDinosaw]

On 9/3/2016 at 0:18 PM, CGW said:

I have never done the trip by train, but have driven quite a few times, some beautiful countryside to pass through, would imagine one of the challenges would be the terrain, some sizeable mountains to go around.

 

Quite a few oil/gas wells in Phitsanaluk area , Northern Thailand's oil reserves are held there controlled by - you guessed it - the military!

The DED (Defence Energy Department), which is part of the military, operates the oil fields in the Fang area in the northern part of Chiang Mai Province.  The oil near Pitsanulok (Sirikit Fields) are operated by PTT EP which is a civilian company in which the government has always had a large stake.

[The Deerhunter]

On 9/3/2016 at 5:45 PM, Toscano said:

My concern is that Thailand only has narrow gauge track , that would likely have to be replaced with broad gauge .  Another concern would be the maintenance of the track as high speed accidents would be deadly .  The distances seem rather short to justify the expense  I feel that an updated broad gauge two way regular railway would serve the purpose better , as well as adapting to freight trains .  As has been suggested , It might be cheaper and quicker to fly .

You re right.  Lots of words but the two things never mentioned are the most crucial for all sorts of reasons.  Gauge and actual planned speed.  These two things are complimentary and vital to the project actually getting started, let alone finished.  Thailand is currently strictly narrow gauge one metre, ( 3' 3.25" , and world standard gauge is 4' 8.5" ).  Staying with that  1m gauge limits speed and safety as a combined factor.  Going to another wider gauge means double tracks of two gauges (so traffic can go both ways at once,)  This means planning 4 times as much track as they already have in some places, just as they are trying to get the 1m lines all doubletracked.  Huge expence and lots more land needed and amazing logistics involved.  Speed means that if it doesn't go fast enough it will not be worth it.  At some point these elephants in the room have to be addressed.  Answers are needed before all these optimistic waffles about "this year" will be realized.

Edited September 5, 2016 by The Deerhunter

[masuk]

On 03/09/2016 at 5:44 PM, wombat said:

freight?

 

Exactly.  There must be a heap of gear transported by road to Chiang Mai.  Trains will reduce costs and also cut back on road repairs.

[houston]

Do it like USA, they just signed a contract with France for the TGV new generation, 537 kph for this generation of train , less energy consumption, more comfortable, high speed even in curve. The contract is signed some weeks ago for the line from Boston to Washington DC, 28 trains ordered for this part of line with a French factory built in USA for American got job. This line will be operational in 2012. The project includes new contract planned for the TGV in Texas from Dallas to Houston then in California from Los Angeles to Las Vegas. In USA, they will limit the speed to 300 to 350 mph, study of infrastructure for speed is in evaluation.

[Ricardo]

8 hours ago, masuk said:

Exactly.  There must be a heap of gear transported by road to Chiang Mai.  Trains will reduce costs and also cut back on road repairs.

 

It used to be that all the petrol/diesel consumed up-North was moved there by tanker-trains, they used to be a familiar sight twenty years ago, but they've been pushing a pipeline gradually further, IIRC the latest stage was to reach as far as Lampang.

 

Much of the line was originally built to move timber out, this perhaps accounts partly for the winding route, but with gradients as steep as 1-in-50 (often needs double-banking over the pass !) it might not be as efficient to operate, as a modern re-engineered line.

 

From time to time I've seen the Ministry of Transport mention using the SRT, to move more container-traffic from Laem Chabang, to inland container-ports, which might also help ?

 

Or perhaps this all awaits the long-term project for the doubling of the tracks ?

[mike324]

I remember Yingluck was proposing trains that go 300 km/hr +, but currently they revised down the speed....not bullet train speeds so its cheaper and more viable economically

[Dukeleto]

On 9/3/2016 at 10:14 PM, ratcatcher said:

Best stay in your room.

Actually I get around quite fine using my own transport and airline carriers not based here. The very near disaster of TG221 at HKT is another case in point.