What Is " Som Nam Naa " In English ?

[Kilgore Trout]

Thanks but Hmmmmmmmm...that's not quite correct.

Im confused - if you know its not quite correct, why were you even asking in the first place? Was this some kind of test

I believe the OP is Thai and knows exactly what "som nam naa" means but are looking for the English equivalent. Appearantly she doesn't feel "serves you right" quite catches the meaning of the frase.

However, I too thought "serves you right" was the nearest English equivalent.

Sophon

And looking at her previous posts, her English is excellent, so I really do not know why she has posted what she has. She will know exactly what it means

Thanks but I am still not convinced that ' serves you right ' is the one but I maybe wrong that's why I brought up the thread. Though, we use " Som Narm Naa" to disapprove someone when things go wrong with that person. Do you use ' serves you right ' to disapprove someone ? Please correct me if my understanding about ' servers you right ' is incorrect

Its not a disapproving statement; its an approving statement regarding the consequences for their action. Saying "I approve of what happened to you because you deserved it."

It sounds like your inability to comprehend English both grammatically and culturally are impeding your understanding of this one!

[Rikker]

Let's play nice now, kiddies.

You're just nitpicking at the semantics here, Trout. As a straightforward locutionary act, it's approving of the result of their action.

As an illocutionary act, it's a statement of disapproval.

Baennaenae's English is quite good, even if there is some cultural misunderstanding going on. And "serves you right" is a decent approximation of สมน้ำหน้า, although not perfect. So say I.

Edited December 3, 2006 by Rikker

[baennaenae]

Let's play nice now, kiddies.

You're just nitpicking at the semantics here, Trout. As a straightforward locutionary act, it's approving of the result of their action.

As an illocutionary act, it's a statement of disapproval.

Baennaenae's English is quite good, even though if there is some cultural misunderstanding going on, and "serves you right" is a decent approximation of ?????????, although not perfect. So says I.

Thanks Rikker

[Grover]

Its not a disapproving statement; its an approving statement regarding the consequences for their action. Saying "I approve of what happened to you because you deserved it."

It sounds like your inability to comprehend English both grammatically and culturally are impeding your understanding of this one!

Its a bit harsh, and you are incorrect.

There are two actions involved before the statement "serves you right" is made. First there is the initial action, then there is the resulting action. Like a cause and effect. So, the dissaproving is associated with the initial action & the 'approval' (wrong choice of words, trout. It is something closer to satisfaction that justice has somehow been served), or sense of justice comes after. Then the statement "Serves you right" or som nam naa is made.

I think baennaenae is closer to the meaning.

Edited December 3, 2006 by Grover

[In the Rai!]

Its not a disapproving statement; its an approving statement regarding the consequences for their action. Saying "I approve of what happened to you because you deserved it."

It sounds like your inability to comprehend English both grammatically and culturally are impeding your understanding of this one!

Its a bit harsh, and you are incorrect.

There are two actions involved before the statement "serves you right" is made. First there is the initial action, then there is the resulting action. Like a cause and effect. So, the dissaproving is associated with the initial action & the 'approval' (wrong choice of words, trout. It is something closer to satisfaction that justice has somehow been served), or sense of justice comes after. Then the statement "Serves you right" or som nam naa is made.

I think baennaenae is closer to the meaning.

Exactly! there doesnt even need to be any exact action done before hand for you to say it.

Example I teach a group of boys who are a real bunch of little sh*%s and they know it. I tell them too behave and they dont. If ones hits their elbow on the desk I say สมน้ำหน้า meaning (thats what you get for being a little sh*%.

You get what you deserve.

serves you right

Thats what you get for .........!

all can be used. It is generally used in gest but I believe it can be used in a harsh way although I have never come accross it.

As for judging someones English ability from a couple of posts in a thread Trout (little harsh dont you think)

Edited December 4, 2006 by In the Rai!

[booma]

I've been told by a Thai friend who has excellent English that it has no literal translation, that it comes from bhuddism, but basically means 'what goes around.....'

[Rikker]

สมน้ำหน้า from Buddhism? Nah.. don't see that one.

Here's a literal translation: "Fits your face."

สม means appropriate, fitting.

น้ำหน้า = หน้า, face, appearance.

"Man, I just lost $1000 bucks playing poker..."

"Fits your face."

Even in English it sounds like fightin' words, no?

Edited December 4, 2006 by Rikker

[robint]

dont forget guys

its a rather vulgar impolite expression frequently used by bar tarts. but then so much of the working language is very vulgar (much the same as east enders lingo might be compared with BBC english or what it used to be)

As for the translation bickering - very childish. there are many expressions that have no accurate translation into english for example Mao (as in cow) which we all know means inebriated but thais in their ways of speaking about unpleasantness in euphemisms use the word for "confused" delightful. its certainly a very colourful word with many overtones which i kinda know but couldnt explain

[baennaenae]

dont forget guys

its a rather vulgar impolite expression frequently used by bar tarts. but then so much of the working language is very vulgar (much the same as east enders lingo might be compared with BBC english or what it used to be)

As for the translation bickering - very childish. there are many expressions that have no accurate translation into english for example Mao (as in cow) which we all know means inebriated but thais in their ways of speaking about unpleasantness in euphemisms use the word for "confused" delightful. its certainly a very colourful word with many overtones which i kinda know but couldnt explain

It is not childish as most people use it and it means ' serves you right ' or ' you

deserve it '

It serves you right because you warned him but he didn't listen e.g. Tom warned John not to touch chili ...John shrugged and put 10 chilies in his mouth. Twenty seconds later John felt smoke was coming out of his ears. Tom walked away and said ' Som Naam Naa ' TOLD YA !!!

Edited December 4, 2006 by baennaenae

[In the Rai!]

its a rather vulgar impolite expression frequently used by bar tarts. but then so much of the working language is very vulgar

As for the translation bickering - very childish.

First of all it is not VULGAR, in fact in my circles it is used 90% of the time all in good fun with friends. I have never heard it used in a harsh way (vulgar way) at all. It is certainly used about other people who fittingly deserve it (for example)

สมน้ำหน้า คนร้ายที่ปล้นร้านทอง ถูกจับกุมตัว

I would love to hear an example of how some of you have heard it used badly?

As for the 2nd (very childish bickering) I dont think people are bickering, I think it is trying to give people the closest translation to those who are way off track and think its not what it is.

If you are unsure then go to a school for a day and listen to kids in class (grades 3-6) I guarantee you will hear it numerous times (in fun with friends)

[Rikker]

We're going to get into the nitty gritty of what vulgar means here, too. It's impolite. I'd say it's vulgar in the sense that you wouldn't say it in mixed company.

Also, I've never been to a bar in Thailand nor had occasion to speak with a "bar tart" (I might be on my own in that, though), so I'm making my judgments from my experience with Thailand in general.

But I wouldn't call any of this bickering. It's called discussion, in which parties are allowed to disagree.

[Indifferent]

Too much analysis.

Serves you right is correct.

Use it as you would in english........

You had accident???? You were drunk??? Som nam na.

You buy a house in wifes name????. Wife leave you??? You live in youth hostel????Som nam na.

If you said your mother has died??? som nam na. Then the reaction would be different.

Laterally speaking..the way I learned this phrase was "orange water face" and have used it many times with friends, policemen and (well basically) everyone. ......I've never been arrested or had any fights. It's the way you tell 'em (to coin a phrase).

Edited December 4, 2006 by Indifferent

[BKK90210]

Ok here is my take…

This phrase is used when one is pleased about a particular event, when one is pleased about an event involving the misfortune of another, especially if that person deserved it.

Similar meaning as

“Pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others”

“You got what you deserved”

“I'm laughing at your bad luck”

[meadish_sweetball]

Too much analysis.

Serves you right is correct.

Use it as you would in english........

You had accident???? You were drunk??? Som nam na.

You buy a house in wifes name????. Wife leave you??? You live in youth hostel????Som nam na.

If you said your mother has died??? som nam na. Then the reaction would be different.

Laterally speaking..the way I learned this phrase was "orange water face" and have used it many times with friends, policemen and (well basically) everyone. ......I've never been arrested or had any fights. It's the way you tell 'em (to coin a phrase).

I agree 'serves you right' works well as a basic translation.

To clarify for anyone who is in the process of learning Thai script, it should be noted that the สม (to befit) here has nothing to do with ส้ม (orange). They are two different words as you can see by the mai thoo tone mark over ส้ม which gives 'orange' a falling tone (high class initial consonant + live syllable + tone mark mai thoo), whereas 'to befit' has a rising tone (high class initial consonant + live syllable + no tone mark).

The สม in สมน้ำหน้า means 'to befit; to be appropriate'. Perhaps you were just using 'orange' as a mnemonic though?

[Rikker]

Fits your face.

[Indifferent]

I agree 'serves you right' works well as a basic translation.

To clarify for anyone who is in the process of learning Thai script, it should be noted that the สม (to befit) here has nothing to do with ส้ม (orange). They are two different words as you can see by the mai thoo tone mark over ส้ม which gives 'orange' a falling tone (high class initial consonant + live syllable + tone mark mai thoo), whereas 'to befit' has a rising tone (high class initial consonant + live syllable + no tone mark).

The สม in สมน้ำหน้า means 'to befit; to be appropriate'. Perhaps you were just using 'orange' as a mnemonic though?

A mnemonic indeed. Apologies. I should have clarified.

It was the first phrase that I learnt and already knew the words for orange, water and face (which you learn pretty quick from 1 night in a bar) and this was just an easy way to remember.

[Kilgore Trout]

As for judging someones English ability from a couple of posts in a thread Trout (little harsh dont you think)

Point taken; I guess my attitude gets a bit negative at times from the way the Thais judge foreigners speaking Thai. The better it gets the harsher they judge and hold you to a high standard. My Thais not perfect but I do speak somewhat well; even my girlfriend actually gets mad at me if I don't understand a phrase (it was said fast or I didn't hear) or even worse, if we are in the company of another Thai if I don't understand something it's like, oh, the falang can't speak Thai anyway.

I've found this to be the case even with Thais who speak English pretty well. Sort of a double standard.

[In the Rai!]

As for judging someones English ability from a couple of posts in a thread Trout (little harsh dont you think)

Point taken; I guess my attitude gets a bit negative at times from the way the Thais judge foreigners speaking Thai. The better it gets the harsher they judge and hold you to a high standard. My Thais not perfect but I do speak somewhat well; even my girlfriend actually gets mad at me if I don't understand a phrase (it was said fast or I didn't hear) or even worse, if we are in the company of another Thai if I don't understand something it's like, oh, the falang can't speak Thai anyway.

I've found this to be the case even with Thais who speak English pretty well. Sort of a double standard.

Agree completely and undertand where you are coming from. I cant remember who said it but I thought it was a great example of the comments you get from Thais.

It was something like:

when you learn to speak a few words = your fantastic

start to make sentences = your Thai is good

speak pretty good Thai = you have along way to go.

In other words the better your Thai gets the more critical Thais are about it.

I thought it was funny as I can relate to it aswell.

ITR

[Rikker]

How true, how true..

Kilgore: welcome, by the way. Hope I didn't seem unfriendly earlier. BTW, write any new books lately?

[iamguava]

Anyone have thoughts about the phrase เวรกรรม (wen gam) and the difference between this and สมน้ำหน้า (som nam nar)?

[Neeranam]

'Wen gam' is like karma, not necessarily your fault, in this life.

[iamguava]

'Wen gam' is like karma, not necessarily your fault, in this life.

I always understood it to mean more like "retribution" - like an event in life caused by a prior act. Therefore of entirely ones own doing? Maybe I'm wrong though, anyone have further thoughts?

Examples of usage in Thai would be nice

Thanks guys

[In the Rai!]

'Wen gam' is like karma, not necessarily your fault, in this life.

I always understood it to mean more like "retribution" - like an event in life caused by a prior act. Therefore of entirely ones own doing? Maybe I'm wrong though, anyone have further thoughts?

Examples of usage in Thai would be nice

Thanks guys

I always believed เวรกรรม to mean fate/karma. กรรม means karma and fate

and เวร means misfortune/fate.

so yeah I would say retribution is like karma and both are correct.

ITR

[booma]

สมน้ำหน้า from Buddhism? Nah.. don't see that one.

Why not, it was a native speaker who told me this!

[meadish_sweetball]

As far as I know, there is nothing in Buddhism that tells you to feel joy about the misfortune of others. But 'som nam naa' does just that, it expresses a feeling that somebody deserves the problem or misfortune that has befallen them.

By a very wide stretch of logic, I guess you could say that 'som nam naa' is connected with the notion of karmic law of cause and effect though.

But again, to feel joy over the workings of other people's bad karma is hardly something commendable.

[Rikker]

The reason I don't buy that สมน้ำหน้า is from Buddhism is that it doesn't have anything to do with any Buddhist concepts or principles. And สมน้ำหน้า are not "Buddhist" words, that is, น้ำหน้า is a native Thai word, a contemptuous word for someone's face. สม may or may not come from a Pali word, the RID gives different senses, only some of which it attributes to Indic sources, though I'm inclined to think they're all etymologically related somehow.

So, basically, in all, there's nothing about its etymology, semantics or denotation that would lead me to believe that.

Also, being a native speaker of a language does not make someone an authority on the language, either. I'm a native speaker of English, yet I'm supremely unqualified to talk about the origins of expressions. Which word is Greek, which word is Latin, why is this word spelled this way but pronounced that way? These things all have explanations, but heck if I know. And yet I can speak the language just fine, no one would dispute that. Folk etymologies (false stories about the supposed origins of words/phrases) abound for all sorts of expressions. Being a native speaker means you know how to use it, but not necessarily the origin of a phrase.

If I said something like, "Where does the word, 'OK' come from?" we could be arguing all year! There are at least a dozen competing origin stories for that word.

That's why I said what I said. No offense to your friend, but I just don't see any evidence to support that notion (Meadish has already covered the theological aspects of the issue... doesn't mesh with Buddhist teaching).

If we were talking about a phrase like เวรกรรม instead, then yes, I'd accept that it's roughly tied to Buddhism. Those are words from Pali/Sanskrit, and karma is a concept of Buddhism. That doesn't mean people are being religious when they say it, though.

Edited December 6, 2006 by Rikker

[fxm88]

Here's a literal translation: "Fits your face."

I liked this phrase so much better when I (mistakenly) thought it translated as "fix your water".

[Neeranam]

Also, being a native speaker of a language does not make someone an authority on the language, either.

You know a hel_l of a lot more about the Thai language than most Thais I know - 'well'-educated (university)ones, at that.

[Rikker]

You know a hel_l of a lot more about the Thai language than most Thais I know - 'well'-educated (university)ones, at that.

Kind of you to say so. There are many on this board who do, though, simply because native languages are acquired without effort, and many people simply don't take an interest in the formal study of their native language, much like many American students hate English class, let alone Greek and Latin!

Knowing Thai and knowing *about* Thai are very different things, no?

[In the Rai!]

You know a hel_l of a lot more about the Thai language than most Thais I know - 'well'-educated (university)ones, at that.

Kind of you to say so. There are many on this board who do, though, simply because native languages are acquired without effort, and many people simply don't take an interest in the formal study of their native language, much like many American students hate English class, let alone Greek and Latin!

Knowing Thai and knowing *about* Thai are very different things, no?

My hat certainly goes off to you and your knowledge of the language Rikker. I wish I knew half as much as you do..