May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Johnyo said:

Looks like a nice slice of humble pie and and at least a Brexit not only for the 52%. I rarely believe anything the Tories have to say but this time they really are cornered. The biggest problem they have IMHO is the Scottish Tories, they dont want a suicidal Brexit and without their support she really has no chance of governing...it really is too ironic.

 

Not sure what will happen to the famous sentences, Brexit means Brexit, Red, White and Blue Brexit and No deal is better than a bad deal. I guess they will disappear together with strong and stable and other crap they have been spouting over the last 12 months.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/12/theresa-may-apologies-backbenchers-election-mess

 

The Dementia Tax was a big hit with the Hard Brexiteers on Soi Buakaow.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Johnyo said:

Looks like a nice slice of humble pie and and at least a Brexit not only for the 52%. I rarely believe anything the Tories have to say but this time they really are cornered. The biggest problem they have IMHO is the Scottish Tories, they dont want a suicidal Brexit and without their support she really has no chance of governing...it really is too ironic.

 

Not sure what will happen to the famous sentences, Brexit means Brexit, Red, White and Blue Brexit and No deal is better than a bad deal. I guess they will disappear together with strong and stable and other crap they have been spouting over the last 12 months.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/12/theresa-may-apologies-backbenchers-election-mess

 

 

Nice slice of humble pie as requested!

 

 

[AlexRich]

18 hours ago, MJP said:

 

Forget Brexit, forget hung Parliament, forget politics. Fact is the UK faces an insurmountable debt and demographics problem on a biblical scale. This dead cat ain't bouncin'.

Anyone here agree with Jim Rogers views on the UK?

 

He's correct. We have a growing proportion of older people compared to working taxpayers ... and as people are living longer we have an increased number of people using the NHS, social care and receiving pensions. All of that has to be paid for by the lower proportion of people in work and paying taxes. The country is also indebted.

 

Immigration was part of the solution to that problem. But the people who currently and in the near future need that extra tax revenue voted to close that down. 

 

Brexit - the dumbest decision ever made by a UK electorate.

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

He's correct. We have a growing proportion of older people compared to working taxpayers ... and as people are living longer we have an increased number of people using the NHS, social care and receiving pensions. All of that has to be paid for by the lower proportion of people in work and paying taxes. The country is also indebted.

 

Immigration was part of the solution to that problem. But the people who currently and in the near future need that extra tax revenue voted to close that down. 

 

Brexit - the dumbest decision ever made by a UK electorate.

 

[MJP]

11 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

He's correct. We have a growing proportion of older people compared to working taxpayers ... and as people are living longer we have an increased number of people using the NHS, social care and receiving pensions. All of that has to be paid for by the lower proportion of people in work and paying taxes. The country is also indebted.

 

Immigration was part of the solution to that problem. But the people who currently and in the near future need that extra tax revenue voted to close that down. 

 

Brexit - the dumbest decision ever made by a UK electorate.

Brexit doesn't mean no immigration, just immigration controlled by British law rather than European. I'd sooner the UK hooked up with India. A real growth economy of 1.2 billion people.

[ilostmypassword]

Here's what I thought was an entertaining exposition by John Oliver of the problems associated with Brexit. The video is embedded in the article. Possibly you can find it in a larger format elsewhere

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2017/06/12/can_lord_buckethead_save_brexit_john_oliver_thinks_so_video.html

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, MJP said:

Brexit doesn't mean no immigration, just immigration controlled by British law rather than European. I'd sooner the UK hooked up with India. A real growth economy of 1.2 billion people.

What is there that the UK could do that it isn't doing already to augment trade with India?  Most of those 1.2 billion billion don't have much of an income.

Also, this ignores the proximity of a large and vastly wealthier market than the one India can offer.

[Grouse]

City set to lose Euro clearing to EU when UK leaves. That's a big hit.

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

City set to lose Euro clearing to EU when UK leaves. That's a big hit.

Probably will help bring down property values there.

[AlexRich]

53 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

 

Thanks ... above is a typical Brexit voter.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Nice slice of humble pie as requested!

 

 

[AlexRich]

51 minutes ago, MJP said:

Brexit doesn't mean no immigration, just immigration controlled by British law rather than European. I'd sooner the UK hooked up with India. A real growth economy of 1.2 billion people.

Yes, India? We can have more Indians in the country to replace the Europeans ... that'll go down well in the Home Counties. 

 

If you look look at any country and analyse who it trades with, in the vast majority of cases the biggest proportion of trade is with your neighbours. There's a reason for that - it makes economic sense. Maybot was looking to close that down ... for "the will of the people" ... but not all people, just the nice one's who hate Johnny Foreigner. Many of whom are in fact Johnny Foreigner in someone else's country!

 

As Maybot has already set immigration to the tens of thousands you can pretty much conclude it was less about control and more about lower numbers. 

[SheungWan]

57 minutes ago, MJP said:

Brexit doesn't mean no immigration, just immigration controlled by British law rather than European. I'd sooner the UK hooked up with India. A real growth economy of 1.2 billion people.

Indeed. Why should the girls on Beach Road get all the fun of hooking up with the Indian guys?

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

He's correct. We have a growing proportion of older people compared to working taxpayers ... and as people are living longer we have an increased number of people using the NHS, social care and receiving pensions. All of that has to be paid for by the lower proportion of people in work and paying taxes. The country is also indebted.

 

Immigration was part of the solution to that problem. But the people who currently and in the near future need that extra tax revenue voted to close that down. 

 

Brexit - the dumbest decision ever made by a UK electorate.

This would be reasonable, IF wages hadn't stagnated for many years.  Someone is making money, and its not the lower paid.

 

Allowing unskilled EU migrants into the country has only alienated further the lower paid - who have finally realised this benefits companies (in the same way as out-sourcing) - whilst leaving them in a very bad situation.

[AlexRich]

12 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Indeed. Why should the girls on Beach Road get all the fun of hooking up with the Indian guys?

A ten for the discounted price of one deal.

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

This would be reasonable, IF wages hadn't stagnated for many years.  Someone is making money, and its not the lower paid.

 

Allowing unskilled EU migrants into the country has only alienated further the lower paid - who have finally realised this benefits companies (in the same way as out-sourcing) - whilst leaving them in a very bad situation.

This country needs to get its education system ready for the challenges of this new century, and get UK citizens away from unskilled positions ... that can be taken up by the EU immigrants. You won't achieve that by wrecking your economy and killing businesses. We have a core group of citizens who are capable of work but choose not to ... and it's got little to do with hourly rates. I'm not a fan of zero hours contracts, but the UK is not a low wage economy ... and that's why we attract so many Europeans, many of whom are skilled professionals. We are closing our doors to the world at the worst possible time ... the technology companies and skilled jobs of the future will go to other countries. We shoot ourselves in the foot so that we can have less fruit pickers from overseas. And our own people won't do that job at any price. Madness .... a complete lack of vision and ultimately destructive.

[dick dasterdly]

12 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

This country needs to get its education system ready for the challenges of this new century, and get UK citizens away from unskilled positions ... that can be taken up by the EU immigrants. You won't achieve that by wrecking your economy and killing businesses. We have a core group of citizens who are capable of work but choose not to ... and it's got little to do with hourly rates. I'm not a fan of zero hours contracts, but the UK is not a low wage economy ... and that's why we attract so many Europeans, many of whom are skilled professionals. We are closing our doors to the world at the worst possible time ... the technology companies and skilled jobs of the future will go to other countries. We shoot ourselves in the foot so that we can have less fruit pickers from overseas. And our own people won't do that job at any price. Madness .... a complete lack of vision and ultimately destructive.

The UK is turning into a low wage economy - and this horrifies me.

 

I'm not happy about your attempt to turn this into " We have a core group of citizens who are capable of work but choose not to" either, as my point was about the low paid i.e working people on salaries so low that they need 'topping up' with state benefits...., and how this has moved on - to keep average salaries static.

 

The only people receiving vastly improved salaries are those at the top.

 

Edit - And unskilled EU workers moving into the UK has only made the 'rich getting richer' process more obvious.  Pay the unskilled (and average) Brit workers more and the tax paid will be very similar.

Edited June 13, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The UK is turning into a low wage economy - and this horrifies me.

 

I'm not happy about your attempt to turn this into " We have a core group of citizens who are capable of work but choose not to" either, as my point was about the low paid i.e working people on salaries so low that they need 'topping up' with state benefits...., and how this has moved on - to keep average salaries static.

 

The only people receiving vastly improved salaries are those at the top.

The average median salary in the UK is actually lower than it was 10 years ago.

https://fullfact.org/economy/have-wages-fallen-past-ten-years/

[AlexRich]

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The UK is turning into a low wage economy - and this horrifies me.

 

I'm not happy about your attempt to turn this into " We have a core group of citizens who are capable of work but choose not to" either, as my point was about the low paid i.e working people on salaries so low that they need 'topping up' with state benefits...., and how this has moved on - to keep average salaries static.

 

The only people receiving vastly improved salaries are those at the top.

Brexit is not the cure ... it's a bit like curing cancer by killing the patient. You generate high paying jobs in industries that generate high added value ... technology, pharmaceuticals, educational research,  financial services, etc .. all areas that will be stymied by Brexit. Instead of attracting inward investment we will be repelling it ... and the people you'd like to help will suffer as a result. 

 

And my other point is that that there are people who will not be encouraged to work by a higher rate if that work is not. To their liking ... fruit picking in Norfolk, for example. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by AlexRich

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

The average median salary in the UK is actually lower than it was 10 years ago.

https://fullfact.org/economy/have-wages-fallen-past-ten-years/

I'm sure that the salary of most employees (inflation adjusted) started falling a long time before that.

 

The poor bore the brunt, and others further up 'the chain' have followed.

[ilostmypassword]

17 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The UK is turning into a low wage economy - and this horrifies me.

 

I'm not happy about your attempt to turn this into " We have a core group of citizens who are capable of work but choose not to" either, as my point was about the low paid i.e working people on salaries so low that they need 'topping up' with state benefits...., and how this has moved on - to keep average salaries static.

 

The only people receiving vastly improved salaries are those at the top.

 

Edit - And unskilled EU workers moving into the UK has only made the 'rich getting richer' process more obvious.  Pay the unskilled (and average) Brit workers more and the tax paid will be very similar.

There is nothing in the EU rules that would stop the UK from raising the minimum wage or outlawing zero hour contracts.

[Flustered]

5 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

The average median salary in the UK is actually lower than it was 10 years ago.

https://fullfact.org/economy/have-wages-fallen-past-ten-years/

I would not quote Fullfact with any certainty.

http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/faux-facts-disturbing-truth-about-fullfactorg

 

Regarding salaries, have you ever thought that they were too high in the first place. !0 years ago is the end of Browns BOOM where money was no object, he just threw it around without any checks or balances and the start of his BUST.

 

Even in the early 90s I was on nearly £60K per year as a telecomms engineer and knew I was overpaid but that was the "market" rate so I took it.

 

Today, wages have settled back to a realistic and sustainable level but people remember the days when they could ask the earth and receive it.

[dick dasterdly]

21 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

This country needs to get its education system ready for the challenges of this new century, and get UK citizens away from unskilled positions ... that can be taken up by the EU immigrants. You won't achieve that by wrecking your economy and killing businesses. We have a core group of citizens who are capable of work but choose not to ... and it's got little to do with hourly rates. I'm not a fan of zero hours contracts, but the UK is not a low wage economy ... and that's why we attract so many Europeans, many of whom are skilled professionals. We are closing our doors to the world at the worst possible time ... the technology companies and skilled jobs of the future will go to other countries. We shoot ourselves in the foot so that we can have less fruit pickers from overseas. And our own people won't do that job at any price. Madness .... a complete lack of vision and ultimately destructive.

"and get UK citizens away from unskilled positions ... that can be taken up by the EU immigrants."

 

I'd add that there will ALWAYS be relatively uneducated/unskilled people in any country, but agree that the UK needs to realise that a better education system is necessary.  Unfortunately the myth has been continually perpetuated that academic qualifications are far more important than practical qualifications .

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

This country needs to get its education system ready for the challenges of this new century, and get UK citizens away from unskilled positions ... that can be taken up by the EU immigrants. You won't achieve that by wrecking your economy and killing businesses. We have a core group of citizens who are capable of work but choose not to ... and it's got little to do with hourly rates. I'm not a fan of zero hours contracts, but the UK is not a low wage economy ... and that's why we attract so many Europeans, many of whom are skilled professionals. We are closing our doors to the world at the worst possible time ... the technology companies and skilled jobs of the future will go to other countries. We shoot ourselves in the foot so that we can have less fruit pickers from overseas. And our own people won't do that job at any price. Madness .... a complete lack of vision and ultimately destructive.

This country needs to get its education system ready for the challenges of this new century, and get UK citizens away from unskilled positions ... that can be taken up by the EU immigrants. If total freedom of movement continues how long do you think the EU immigrants will be happy with their unskilled lot?? How long will it be before the EU issues a directive for even allocation of job types and salaries for all EU citizens wherever they work, within the EU - not saying that's wrong but I imagine that would upset even more British workers?

 

We are closing our doors to the world at the worst possible time ... this statement is incorrect..the need is to be able to control who comes in along with the rate that that happens, EU or not. This will probably be the last chance to install the EU turnstile!

 

We shoot ourselves in the foot so that we can have less fruit pickers from overseas ..better the foot than the ear! Fruit pickers, right!

 

. And our own people won't do that job at any price. Madness .... a complete lack of vision and ultimately destructive. Short-term fixes, like imported labour, to a relatively small country allow short-term economic growth - but the benefits of that are enjoyed by very few - while other standards and quality of life decline for the many.  

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

There is nothing in the EU rules that would stop the UK from raising the minimum wage or outlawing zero hour contracts.

I hope you're right (and blame the UK governments far more than the EU when it comes to doing everything possible to keep the under-paid, underpaid), but its not just that.

 

An influx of economic migrants is always going to keep wages low.

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

I hope you're right (and blame the UK governments far more than the EU when it comes to doing everything possible to keep the under-paid, underpaid), but its not just that.

 

An influx of economic migrants is always going to keep wages low.

Not if there's strict enforcement of a minimum wage set, a strong NHS, and educational services that are affordable. Remember that the Tories slashed taxes on the wealthiest Britons twice in the middle of a financial recession, the worst since the Great Depression.

[SheungWan]

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"and get UK citizens away from unskilled positions ... that can be taken up by the EU immigrants."

 

I'd add that there will ALWAYS be relatively uneducated/unskilled people in any country, but agree that the UK needs to realise that a better education system is necessary.  Unfortunately the myth has been continually perpetuated that academic qualifications are far more important than practical qualifications .

City + Guilds 726 Lament.

[rockingrobin]

I hear that one Brexit Minister has resigned and another was fired, Gorge Bridges and David Jones

[dick dasterdly]

11 minutes ago, Flustered said:

I would not quote Fullfact with any certainty.

http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/faux-facts-disturbing-truth-about-fullfactorg

 

Regarding salaries, have you ever thought that they were too high in the first place. !0 years ago is the end of Browns BOOM where money was no object, he just threw it around without any checks or balances and the start of his BUST.

 

Even in the early 90s I was on nearly £60K per year as a telecomms engineer and knew I was overpaid but that was the "market" rate so I took it.

 

Today, wages have settled back to a realistic and sustainable level but people remember the days when they could ask the earth and receive it.

Having worked throughout the era where salaries and company pensions in large companies were destroyed (explained as necessary down-sizing - whilst increasing the salaries of those at the top) - I'm not v sympathetic to this argument....

[dick dasterdly]

6 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Not if there's strict enforcement of a minimum wage set, a strong NHS, and educational services that are affordable. Remember that the Tories slashed taxes on the wealthiest Britons twice in the middle of a financial recession, the worst since the Great Depression.

"Not if there's strict enforcement of a minimum wage set"

 

Impossible to enforce.  The UK already has a minimum wage, but it been proven by various documentaries that it too frequently doesn't happen.