Water pump problems

[Charlie Cabana]

Thank you for your reply. If the valve on the meter is closed, then no. 3 would also happen-correct? 

If there's a leak in the pipe work, then how would you explain the difference in time intervals between cycling on/off that's seems to be temperature related?

No solar heater.

Maybe the check valve in the Hitachi pump is defective (the pump cycles off/on with the hitachi spring [4,5 cm], a 5.5 cm spring, and no spring), and therefore adding a check valve on the in pipe to the pump would solve the problem.

[RichCor]

10 hours ago, Charlie Cabana said:

I have the check valve, but have not installed it yet. I have my doubts that it will be the answer, because when I'm using the pump/tank, I turn off the valve at the meter and also the valve leading into the tank. The valves that I have closed have done the work of the check valve already-correct?

 

If you are closing the valves to the Tank and Meter, leaving the House as the only output for the Pump ...and the pump is running at times when you haven't created a demand -- then it's time to check for leaks, or check the Pump, as *something* is causing the pump to run.

 

Are you sure you don't have any 'automatic' water devices connected, like Ice Makers, RO Water Maker, Water Softeners, Pool Filters, Garden Sprinklers, etc, that are on timers?

[Charlie Cabana]

This morning I did the following with valves at meter and tank closed; and did not turn on any faucets.

From 1:14:59AM to 2:35:37, the intervals steadily decreased from 11:04 (min,sec) to 5:06. I then closed the valve on the 'in pipe'. The pump cycled on after about five minutes and ran continuously until I shut it off. It could not get water from the tank. Had there been a check valve it would have probably cycled on/off with the same intervals as before. So it's still possible that the  leak is in the pump or in the in pipe. Then I opened the valve.

From 2:42:57 until 2:52:34, the intervals decreased from 5:20 to 4:47. I then closed the valve on the 'out pipe'. At 3:26:00( app 33 minutes) it still had not cycled on. So now we know that the leak is not in the pump or the in pipe. It's somewhere beyond the valve in the out pipe.

At 3:29AM, I opened the valve on the out pipe. It did not cycle on immediately. At 3:31:47, it cycled on and from then until 3:40:46 the intervals were 4:25 and 4:24. 

I then used some water. 

At 3:58:57 I closed the valve leading into the house. The point at which the pipe goes underground. It cycled on at 4:03:09 (4:12 minute interval) and from then the next three intervals were 4:12,4:12, and 4:07. At 4:11:22 I opened the house valve and from then until 4:31:54, the intervals decreased from 4:11 to 4:03.

I then used water. So the leak in the pipe underground. 

To summarize: It seems like there is no leak in the pump, the in pipe, the out pipe up to the valve, or in the pipe underground. Therefore it seems like the leak would be in pipe work between the 4 valves (tank, out pipe, house, and meter). There is not a lot of pipe here and it's all quite visible. BIG MYSTERY!

The only thing that I think I might do now is to add a check valve at the red 'x' on my drawing and then open the tank and meter valves. Perhaps that might do something? 

Cheers everybody.

[Charlie Cabana]

No automatic water devices. 

[RichCor]

On 5/5/2017 at 5:30 AM, Crossy said:

 

 

Slight post editing for my clarity:

 

This morning I did the following with valves at meter and tank closed; and did not turn on any faucets.

 

From 1:14:59AM to 2:35:37, the [pump auto-cycle] intervals steadily decreased from 11:04 (min,sec) to 5:06.

 

I then closed the valve on the 'in pipe' [leading from the tank to the pump].

The pump cycled on after about five minutes and ran continuously until I shut it off.

It could not get water from the tank. Had there been a check valve it would have probably cycled on/off with the same intervals as before. So it's still possible that the  leak is in the pump or in the in pipe.

Then I opened the valve.

 

[ !!! CAUTION: The valve between the  tank and the pump should only be closed when the pump is turned off, otherwise you run the risk of running the pump dry and burning it up] 

 

From 2:42:57 until 2:52:34, the [pump cycle] intervals decreased from 5:20 to 4:47. I then closed the valve on the 'out pipe' [after the pump, so feeding nothing].

At 3:26:00( app 33 minutes) it still had not cycled on. So now we know that the leak is not in the pump [...] It's somewhere beyond the valve in the out pipe.

 

At 3:29AM, I opened the valve on the out pipe. It did not cycle on immediately.

At 3:31:47, it cycled on and from then until 3:40:46 the intervals were 4:25 and 4:24. 

I then used some water. 

 

At 3:58:57 I closed the valve leading into the house (The point at which the pipe goes underground).

It cycled on at 4:03:09 (4:12 minute interval) and from then the next three intervals were 4:12,4:12, and 4:07. At 4:11:22

I opened the house valve and from then until 4:31:54, the intervals decreased from 4:11 to 4:03.

I then used water. So the leak in the pipe underground. 

 

To summarize: It seems like there is no leak in the pump, the in pipe, the out pipe up to the valve, or in the pipe underground. Therefore it seems like the leak would be in pipe work between the 4 valves (tank, out pipe, house, and meter). There is not a lot of pipe here and it's all quite visible. BIG MYSTERY!

The only thing that I think I might do now is to add a check valve at the red 'x' on my drawing and then open the tank and meter valves. Perhaps that might do something? 

Cheers everybody.

 

Thanks for the post.

 

From what you have written, there appears to be a leak (or backflow leakage) AFTER the valve on the pump. This line feeds to THREE valves, feeding the house and backfeeding the Tank and Meter (due to lack of NRV at @Crossy's red 'X').

 

It is possible one of these valves is not closing completely and allowing water to flow (either into the house, or backflow into the Tank or Meter).

 

Putting in the NRV at @Crossy's red 'X' will immediately prevent two backflow issues. Then you can see if the issue is resolved, or if you need to do a closer examination of the pipe between the pump and house, or after the house valve. 

[Crossy]

Before trying to fault-find get the arrangement correct (fit the NR valve).

 

If it still cycles you have a leak, it should be visible if it's not underground.

 

Good luck.

[Charlie Cabana]

Thank you.

[Charlie Cabana]

I added the check valve 2 days ago. So far OK! When I cut out the section of pipe for the CV, the water continued to flow(small, slow stream) from the  main even though the valve was shut. Valve is defective. So it seems that was the problem. The mains pressure affected my system (as opposed to temp) even though the valve was shut. I was a bit worried that the bond of the CV to the pipe might not be good because of the water flow, but I loaded on the PVC cement, and it's OK-no leaks. 

Thank you every one.

Cheers, Charlie.

[RichCor]

26 minutes ago, Charlie Cabana said:

 So far OK! When I cut out the section of pipe for the CV, the water continued to flow(small, slow stream) from the  main even though the valve was shut. [...]  I was a bit worried that the bond of the CV to the pipe might not be good because of the water flow, but I loaded on the PVC cement, and it's OK-no leaks. 

 

Suggest check on the fitting for a week or so until the 'glue' completely sets.

 

You want to make sure pin-hole leaks or fractures haven't formed in/near the fitting. Will probably be OK, but I've witnessed where too much solvent and lack of loooong cure time before pressurizing the line resulted in joints slipping out or pin-hole leaks forming in the solvent glob.