Prison suicides in England and Wales 'reach record levels'

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

If the UK cannot offer a detailed analyses, what makes you think the WHO can ?

 

Pretty good that you can now quote some WHO in depth analyses but had no idea that NI had the highest suicide rates in the UK.

 

Must be a fantastic report.

 

 

You are contradicting yourself, somewhat, sarge. Firstly you state:

 

5 hours ago, SgtRock said:

You have no idea. If you knew anything, you would know that the suicide rate in the General population is accepted as being unknown because too many cannot be determined and therefore not classified as suicide. 

 

But then you state:

 

2 hours ago, SgtRock said:

Pretty good that you can now quote some WHO in depth analyses but had no idea that NI had the highest suicide rates in the UK.

 

Which is it, because suicide cannot be both unknown and known?

 

 

[Shawn0000]

2 hours ago, smotherb said:

I asked the rhetorical question, Why not encourage suicide . . . ? Good luck convicting someone of committing a crime for that; especially if they, like me, has no control over Brit prisons. 

 

No, the crime is what you are suggesting someone else do, not encouraging someone else to murder for your meager financial benefit by way of marginally lower revenue losses, but the actual encouraging of suicide.

[Torrens54]

Have to wonder if those who "Opted Out" were due for release and couldn't face having to go out and face all those alleged Refugees ?

[Stargeezr]

Is it Fentanal  and that other pill  that is spiking the deaths?

 that Elephant trank,  stuff, I  hear  it  is completely deadly.

  In Vancouver B.C. the drug crowd  is dying off a lot  faster

as well, due  to these new drugs.

Geezer

[smotherb]

9 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

No, the crime is what you are suggesting someone else do, not encouraging someone else to murder for your meager financial benefit by way of marginally lower revenue losses, but the actual encouraging of suicide.

Gee, the crime of suggestion. And, don't forget, possible deterrent of future crimes. 

[Shawn0000]

2 hours ago, smotherb said:

Gee, the crime of suggestion. And, don't forget, possible deterrent of future crimes. 

 

What, can't you  read?  I said your suggestion is not the crime, it is what you are suggesting other people should do that would be the crime, and that would be the crime of murder.

[Shawn0000]

 

10 hours ago, Torrens54 said:

Have to wonder if those who "Opted Out" were due for release and couldn't face having to go out and face all those alleged Refugees ?

 

That is an extraordinary level of cowardliness to project onto others.

[smotherb]

20 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

What, can't you  read?  I said your suggestion is not the crime, it is what you are suggesting other people should do that would be the crime, and that would be the crime of murder.

" . . . your suggestion is not the crime, it is what you are suggesting . . ."

[Shawn0000]

4 minutes ago, smotherb said:

" . . . your suggestion is not the crime, it is what you are suggesting . . ."

 

Oh, I see the problem.  The crime is not the suggestion itself but you are suggesting someone else commit a crime, simple enough for you?  Is English not your first language? 

[smotherb]

34 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Oh, I see the problem.  The crime is not the suggestion itself but you are suggesting someone else commit a crime, simple enough for you?  Is English not your first language? 

Inmates are committing suicide; without any suggestion from me.

What is the cause? Not my suggestion.

Why not take advantage of that fact and give some worth to their decision to end it all?

Doings so would not only give the inmate a chance to give-back to his family, it would save taxpayer money and it would reduce repeat crimes.

Calling for a discussion on that issue is not a crime—no matter how you feel about it.

Are you even aware that recidivism rates are quite high among convicted criminals? 

Here is an article about ex-convicts from British prisons:

“Reoffending statistics are normally only based on the first year after punishment but a long range study by the Ministry of Justice found that 74 per cent of offenders who were released from custody or who started a community penalty between January and March 2000 were reconvicted within nine years . . . It means the majority of offenders are never rehabilitated.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8110458/Three-in-four-offenders-stick-to-a-life-of-crime.html

[Grubster]

Many minimum wage hard working law abiding citizens are not eating as well as these law breakers are.  Can we please help these folks first?

[Shawn0000]

6 hours ago, smotherb said:

Inmates are committing suicide; without any suggestion from me.

What is the cause? Not my suggestion.

 

 

 

Why not take advantage of that fact and give some worth to their decision to end it all?

Doings so would not only give the inmate a chance to give-back to his family, it would save taxpayer money and it would reduce repeat crimes.

 

Calling for a discussion on that issue is not a crime—no matter how you feel about it.

 

 

 

Are you even aware that recidivism rates are quite high among convicted criminals? 

Here is an article about ex-convicts from British prisons:

 

“Reoffending statistics are normally only based on the first year after punishment but a long range study by the Ministry of Justice found that 74 per cent of offenders who were released from custody or who started a community penalty between January and March 2000 were reconvicted within nine years . . . It means the majority of offenders are never rehabilitated.”

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8110458/Three-in-four-offenders-stick-to-a-life-of-crime.html

 

I very much understand the recidivism problem in the UK, it is linked to the same causes as the suicides.  Have you considered joining ISIS, your ideas fit well.

[Shawn0000]

11 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Many minimum wage hard working law abiding citizens are not eating as well as these law breakers are.  Can we please help these folks first?

 

Certainly seems to be the case at Hindley, plenty of hard working law abiding citizens feeding their families on moldy bread, right?

https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmiprisons/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2016/11/Hindley-Web-2016.pdf

 

Meanwhile in Sweden where prisoners are actually treated with respect, prisons have been closing due to a lack of inmates.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/11/sweden-closes-prisons-number-inmates-plummets

 

[RuamRudy]

6 hours ago, smotherb said:

 

“Reoffending statistics are normally only based on the first year after punishment but a long range study by the Ministry of Justice found that 74 per cent of offenders who were released from custody or who started a community penalty between January and March 2000 were reconvicted within nine years . . . It means the majority of offenders are never rehabilitated.”

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8110458/Three-in-four-offenders-stick-to-a-life-of-crime.html

 

Maybe a problem to do with the poor standard of the UK prison service rather than a reflection on the quality of the individuals? Others on this thread have mentioned the Norwegian model, where re-offending rates are much lower than most other countries.

 

[GuiseppeD]

Watch the old soap trick in the showers.

[Grubster]

6 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Certainly seems to be the case at Hindley, plenty of hard working law abiding citizens feeding their families on moldy bread, right?

https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmiprisons/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2016/11/Hindley-Web-2016.pdf

 

Meanwhile in Sweden where prisoners are actually treated with respect, prisons have been closing due to a lack of inmates.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/11/sweden-closes-prisons-number-inmates-plummets

 

Where the minimum wage is much higher and job opportunities are plentiful.  Very hard to compare these two countries.  If you don't address poverty these prisons will always be full no matter how nice they are in fact many prisoners in the US want to get back in as soon as possible unless they can make a fortune selling drugs or robbing someone, its a win win situation for them. They learn quickly to make sure their crimes get them in the federal pens as many state ones aren't nearly as nice. In the meanwhile the lower end working class are getting beat into the ground, having to depend on food stamps and other help.  That may sound ok to you but they really don't like working 40 or more hours a week and then having to pull out a food stamp card at the store. Then being ridiculed by the public for being the problem instead of the victim. They don't have the time to study and I suggest they commit a crime to get access to those nice libraries they have in those prisons. Then their only worry would be to study. No Dr bills, free room and board, free dental care, no bills what so ever. Easy solution.

[Shawn0000]

8 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Where the minimum wage is much higher and job opportunities are plentiful.  Very hard to compare these two countries.  If you don't address poverty these prisons will always be full no matter how nice they are in fact many prisoners in the US want to get back in as soon as possible unless they can make a fortune selling drugs or robbing someone, its a win win situation for them. They learn quickly to make sure their crimes get them in the federal pens as many state ones aren't nearly as nice. In the meanwhile the lower end working class are getting beat into the ground, having to depend on food stamps and other help.  That may sound ok to you but they really don't like working 40 or more hours a week and then having to pull out a food stamp card at the store. Then being ridiculed by the public for being the problem instead of the victim. They don't have the time to study and I suggest they commit a crime to get access to those nice libraries they have in those prisons. Then their only worry would be to study. No Dr bills, free room and board, free dental care, no bills what so ever. Easy solution.

 

True, a large part of the problem in the UK and the US is the inequality, poverty does lead some into crime, however there are also poor people in Sweden, and their prisons are much more comfortable however they rarely return as they are genuinely rehabilitated.  You mention that a prisoners only worry becomes studying, that is if they are lucky enough to be given this privilege that really should be a mandatory requirement within their rehabilitation program.  The problem in the UK is that many prisoners are on 23 hour lock down with limited access to books, the things they do learn are not necessarily things that help them stay out of trouble.

[Grubster]

4 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

True, a large part of the problem in the UK and the US is the inequality, poverty does lead some into crime, however there are also poor people in Sweden, and their prisons are much more comfortable however they rarely return as they are genuinely rehabilitated.  You mention that a prisoners only worry becomes studying, that is if they are lucky enough to be given this privilege that really should be a mandatory requirement within their rehabilitation program.  The problem in the UK is that many prisoners are on 23 hour lock down with limited access to books, the things they do learn are not necessarily things that help them stay out of trouble.

There is very little poverty in Sweden, compared to the UK or US. Also not very many people. Its apples to oranges totally. They have all kinds of wealth there and pay their workers well.  They are currently taking many immigrants that will water that down a lot though.

              I am convinced that crime is a symptom, poverty is the cause, and fair wages for all is the cure.  You fight for the bandaids and I'll fight for the cure.   When that happens I will be ready for prison reform. There will be a lot less prisoners then too.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, Grubster said:

I am convinced that crime is a symptom, poverty is the cause, and fair wages for all is the cure.  You fight for the bandaids and I'll fight for the cure.   When that happens I will be ready for prison reform. There will be a lot less prisoners then too.

 

I agree with your first statement - more needs to be done to tackle poverty, and to give those on the margins of society hope that there is a way out. But these people we are locking up and failing to rehabilitate, we have already spent hundreds of thousands on them through education and other state support as they grew up. Rather than waste all that investment, a relatively small amount could be invested to turn them around and make them into contributing members of society, rather than leave them to become career criminals or suicide statistics.

[Grubster]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I agree with your first statement - more needs to be done to tackle poverty, and to give those on the margins of society hope that there is a way out. But these people we are locking up and failing to rehabilitate, we have already spent hundreds of thousands on them through education and other state support as they grew up. Rather than waste all that investment, a relatively small amount could be invested to turn them around and make them into contributing members of society, rather than leave them to become career criminals or suicide statistics.

As long as they are not rewarded by giving them the job somebody who has worked hard to achieve and didn't commit any crime should be getting.

[Shawn0000]

8 minutes ago, Grubster said:

There is very little poverty in Sweden, compared to the UK or US. Also not very many people. Its apples to oranges totally. They have all kinds of wealth there and pay their workers well.  They are currently taking many immigrants that will water that down a lot though.

              I am convinced that crime is a symptom, poverty is the cause, and fair wages for all is the cure.  You fight for the bandaids and I'll fight for the cure.   When that happens I will be ready for prison reform. There will be a lot less prisoners then too.

 

12% of Swedish children live in poverty, about half the percentage of the UK, but hardly nothing.  I see no relevance in population totals, what is that you see in that?

 

Anyway, we were talking about prisons, which need reforming, not about poverty in the UK, which has gone unaddressed for far too long and which is not going to be changed by the Tory party and certainly not going to change in time for the next prisoner being released without being rehabilitated.  You call it a bandaid, I call it a real person worth considering.

 

But go for it, fight for the cure, fight to end poverty, I am with you , but unfortunately in the UK that is hardly an easy goal, the gap has not stopped widening since the 60's and the rate of growth in wealth disparity has also been steadily increasing the entire time, it looks like worse times are to come not better.  Sometime the best we can do is put pressure on our mean government to not be quite so mean.

[Grubster]

24 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

12% of Swedish children live in poverty, about half the percentage of the UK, but hardly nothing.  I see no relevance in population totals, what is that you see in that?

 

Anyway, we were talking about prisons, which need reforming, not about poverty in the UK, which has gone unaddressed for far too long and which is not going to be changed by the Tory party and certainly not going to change in time for the next prisoner being released without being rehabilitated.  You call it a bandaid, I call it a real person worth considering.

 

But go for it, fight for the cure, fight to end poverty, I am with you , but unfortunately in the UK that is hardly an easy goal, the gap has not stopped widening since the 60's and the rate of growth in wealth disparity has also been steadily increasing the entire time, it looks like worse times are to come not better.  Sometime the best we can do is put pressure on our mean government to not be quite so mean.

I agree that it is a losing battle as the rich control the government more and more, so I think neither of our goals can be achieved without a big fundamental change like a rebellion of some sort. You don't see any of these rich guys going to those underfunded prisons, their prisons in the US have lines on the side walks around the nice dormitories they are kept in,  oh but they have to pay for there own steak and lobster dinners. After all they probably only cheated the taxpayer out of a few billion or so.

[Torrens54]

13 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

 

That is an extraordinary level of cowardliness to project onto others.

Suicide has always been regarded as, "a coward's way out."

[smotherb]

13 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Maybe a problem to do with the poor standard of the UK prison service rather than a reflection on the quality of the individuals? Others on this thread have mentioned the Norwegian model, where re-offending rates are much lower than most other countries.

 

Yes, the recidivism rate is even less in American prisons, but the article was about British prisons.

[smotherb]

13 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

I very much understand the recidivism problem in the UK, it is linked to the same causes as the suicides.  Have you considered joining ISIS, your ideas fit well.

Well now, you’ve accused me of being a criminal, not being able to read, not speaking English and now you associate me with terrorists; all because you disagree with me. What a wonderful person you must be.  

[Scott]

Unless members keep it civil, they will be joining the list of people who can read, but can't post.  

 

Please keep it civil.  

[smotherb]

8 hours ago, Torrens54 said:

Suicide has always been regarded as, "a coward's way out."

Not by everyone. Euthanasia is thought of as a right by many.

[Shawn0000]

2 hours ago, smotherb said:

Well now, you’ve accused me of being a criminal, not being able to read, not speaking English and now you associate me with terrorists; all because you disagree with me. What a wonderful person you must be.  

 

No, you misunderstood and thought I was accusing you of being a criminal, the not being able to read and also excusing your English abilities with a suggestion that you may not be a first language speaker comments were out of disbelief that you took it that way rather than what was clearly written, that you were suggesting other people became criminals by encouraging suicide, it would seem you still are not grasping this rather simplistic concept, never mind.

 

Your idea fits with the ideas of ISIS, that is a fact.  But yes, with your support of killing off prisoners it is you who is clearly the wonderful human being.

[nausea]

Most of these guys/girls can probably be turned around with the right treatment. No doubt there are a few psychpaths who need to be banged up permanently.

[smotherb]

On 11/30/2016 at 11:37 AM, Shawn0000 said:

 

No, you misunderstood and thought I was accusing you of being a criminal, the not being able to read and also excusing your English abilities with a suggestion that you may not be a first language speaker comments were out of disbelief that you took it that way rather than what was clearly written, that you were suggesting other people became criminals by encouraging suicide, it would seem you still are not grasping this rather simplistic concept, never mind.

 

Your idea fits with the ideas of ISIS, that is a fact.  But yes, with your support of killing off prisoners it is you who is clearly the wonderful human being.

Then, I guess you would not be in favor of my suggestion for eliminating penitentiaries all together.  That's right, absolutely no need for prisons; so there would be no recidivism, no suicides, no such thing as an ex-convict.