The Geriatric Paradigm Of The Thai Immigration Law

[papakapbaan]

Hi Kris (I assume it's your real name?)

Thanks for your suggestions.

The situation is a bit complicate.

I am living with the mother of the child and she is taking good care of her.

My problem is my impossibility (at least for now) to get a divorce from ANOTHER THAI woman.

-Without divorce (or agreement of my wife): no recogniton of the child.

-Without recognition of the child: no passport for sure and not even any "family reunion"-type of visa.

(BTW even with custody I can not aply for a family reunion type of visa, again not without the agreement of my wife)

-So we are left with tourist visa indeed.

Belgian embassy confirmed last week: I do not stand the slightest chance to receive a tourist visa for my daughter (2.5 years old) if the mother does not accompany us in Belgium.

Problem: the mother is working.

So: long (or even short) term solution through tourist visas are not simple.

But we (my family) are actually considering the scenario above (tourist visa for permanent stay in Belgium)... :-(

As you said, in Belgium they won't put my daughter in the plane back to Thailand.

But here, they may well put the father in the plane to Belgium!!

BTW:

You didn't do anything wrong and I really don't understand the lack of sympathy of some people on this forum.

I did a child out of marriage. It's a sin!

(Without any undue respect: it's clearly full of traditionalist old farts here, on TV and in Thailand).

[kriswillems]

I took my 4 years old niece with a tourist visa to Belgium with a written permission of the parents and a copy of their passports and identity cards. The parents of my niece didn't join me on the trip to Belgium.

After 1 month in Belgium my niece returned to Thailand.

I think the Belgian embassy is giving you a hard time. I would ask for a written persmission of your ex-wife and the mother of the child (your partner), if both agree, I don't see any reason why the Belgian embassy would refuse you a visa.

Normally you get get a tourist visa for ANY Thai child (doesn't even need to be family) as long as both parents give their permission. The parents don't need to join the child. In your case either your wife or the real mother should be recognised as the real mother, so if both give their permission you shouldn't have any problems.

I would ask to talk to Belgian person in embassy, not the the girls at the desk.

BUT: in order to get a visa for a Thai person you need somebody as a guarantee. This person should have a certain minimum income in Belgium. The guarantee paper can be obtained in the city hall. Do you have family that would like to act as a guarantee? Or can you get such a paper yourself on your next visit to Belgium?

Before thinking about moving to Belgium you've to make sure your new partner agrees. She can expect to have a pretty hard life in Belgium and it will be hard for her to adapt here and find a job.

I would already start the divorce procedure in Thailand. You already have waited too long with starting this procedure.

[papakapbaan]

I took my 4 years old niece with a tourist visa to Belgium with a written permission of the parents and a copy of their passports and identity cards. The parents of my niece didn't join me on the trip to Belgium.

On paper, you are right (I have the documents with the requirements/conditions).

But...

I would ask to talk to Belgian person in embassy, not the the girls at the desk.

This is exactly what I did last week. Actually, it is the "Belgian person" who clearly confirmed I did not stand any chance to get a tourist visa without the mother accompanying us.

She patiently explained the siuation and added that they did not even need my signature on anything.

Since I am not recognized as a parent, since the child is not recognized. Logical indeed...

From the legal perspective: I guess I look like a pervert trying to bring a 2.5 years old with me in the plane.

(Sorry, it's the image I have in mind, how the explanations made me feel)

(BTW The girl at the desk was very helpful. As she was in many occasions. She had an argument once with my wife (snobish hi-so) and it seems she will always remember her... She always remembers me).

BUT: in order to get a visa for a Thai person you need somebody as a guarantee. This person should have a certain minimum income in Belgium. The guarantee paper can be obtained in the city hall. Do you have family that would like to act as a guarantee? Or can you get such a paper yourself on your next visit to Belgium?

I have family who would guarantee.

Before thinking about moving to Belgium you've to make sure your new partner agrees. She can expect to have a pretty hard life in Belgium and it will be hard for her to adapt here and find a job.

Sure. Actually, my partner (of 6 years) would like to live in Belgium (as most Thai women, it seems). But I am very aware of the points you mention.

Besides, we have to consider the free-fall of our standard of living without the income from my rented property and without her salary (and of course, the costs of living!)

I would already start the divorce procedure in Thailand. You already have waited too long with starting this procedure.

Well. I can not even locate my wife :-( Anyway, we ended our relationship in very bad terms. She managed to throw me into a Thai police station jail (for one night) on absolutely no basis (Absolute fabrication of domestic violence. I never hit a woman in my entire life. Simply, I forcefully refused her entry into my newly rented apartment (without any violence, really, only grabbed her arms). Let me add for the record that I was living there alone and without any "visitor" - ever)

(I was released on a 20,000 baht bail. At the end of the "saga", a Thai court fined me... 2,000 baht. I had to pay 10,000+ in lawyer's fees and various "donations").

[sinsin2]

Hi,

I think you are approaching this in the wrong way.

Divorce....I was invoved/attended two in Thailand.

!00% Bullshit.

Rented witnesses,sole custody of children awarded.

Fathers not contacted.

Grounds for divorce were abandonment.

In both cases untrue.

Cost 1990 6,000b,1994 8,000b.

Belgian passport.

Have you registered the birth of the child with the embassy.

Check the Chen case ruling of the EU court.

[sinsin2]

Do not listen to the ###### in the Embassy.

Do your research and deal directly with Brussells.

[kriswillems]

I still don't get it. You're not recognised as a father... so what? I am also not the father of my niece and I could take my niece to Belgium? Is your daughter officially a child without father? In this case, isn't it sufficient that the mother gives her permission? Any person can take a Thai child on a holiday to Belgium if the parents agree. Or did the law change since last year?

I wouldn't be too sure that your Thai gf will like life in Belgium. Most Thai woman get pretty disappointed over here (lonely, no job, no future, no good food, no comfort, everything is expensive, miss the parents...) and their relation suffers a lot from that. If your girlfriend is not very poor and has a good life in Thailand she might get disappointed too. My wife got disappointed here but we managed to stay together (6 years married now) and I'll be moving to Thailand in the middle of this year, starting a new life over there.

I will be facing similar visa problems as you have. But at least I am prepared, I know what to expect (and I've a fallback or backup plan).

Mixed relation are sometimes really hard but always an enrichment.

Edited February 1, 2007 by kriswillems

[pumper]

Justice is incidental to law and order.~ J. Edgar Hoover

i remember from a college psych class my (goofy!) teacher saying anyone who thought life was fair was psychotic.

every time i feel wronged i try to remember that

you are focused on the short term .. (today's walk)

what are your long term options

1. seek legal counsel for divorce from 1st .. & fight through it (or continue to whine about it.)

you MUST RESOLVE the 1st issue.

2. after the divorce/resolution, legalize your current family situation

Here's to our wives and girlfriends...may they never meet! ~ Groucho Marx

no matter what the country / society, married to 1 & family with another is problematic.

i assume you knew the Thai rules for some time & chose to ignore .. you obviously knew you had a problem with the 1st lass & ignored

the lesson for the rest of us is to not get into a similar situation or if / when we do .. resolve the problem not ignore.

all the current 'visa whiners' have known for months that had better act ..

many visa runners took action & are now ok

[sinsin2]

Hi Kris (I assume it's your real name?)

Thanks for your suggestions.

The situation is a bit complicate.

I am living with the mother of the child and she is taking good care of her.

My problem is my impossibility (at least for now) to get a divorce from ANOTHER THAI woman.

-Without divorce (or agreement of my wife): no recogniton of the child.

-Without recognition of the child: no passport for sure and not even any "family reunion"-type of visa.

(BTW even with custody I can not aply for a family reunion type of visa, again not without the agreement of my wife)

-So we are left with tourist visa indeed.

Belgian embassy confirmed last week: I do not stand the slightest chance to receive a tourist visa for my daughter (2.5 years old) if the mother does not accompany us in Belgium.

Problem: the mother is working.

So: long (or even short) term solution through tourist visas are not simple.

But we (my family) are actually considering the scenario above (tourist visa for permanent stay in Belgium)... :-(

As you said, in Belgium they won't put my daughter in the plane back to Thailand.

But here, they may well put the father in the plane to Belgium!!

BTW:

You didn't do anything wrong and I really don't understand the lack of sympathy of some people on this forum.

I did a child out of marriage. It's a sin!

(Without any undue respect: it's clearly full of traditionalist old farts here, on TV and in Thailand).

You are making this unnecessarily difficult.

Your child was born outside of wedlock......no problem.

I presume that your name is on the childs birth certificate.

First step..get a Thai passport.

Then apply for Belgian citizenship.

Get a Belgian passport.

Then get the mothers permission to take the child to Belgium.

Once the child has the EU passport..the mother is entitled to reside in Belgium with the child. IE Chen.

You divorce your wife on grounds of abandonement.........once she has left for more than a year.

NOW..Do not talk too much.

Do not reveal your agenda or problems to embassy or Thai officials.

What makes you think that these people will/can help you?

They are paper shufflers.

[papakapbaan]

Justice is incidental to law and order.~ J. Edgar Hoover

i remember from a college psych class my (goofy!) teacher saying anyone who thought life was fair was psychotic.

every time i feel wronged i try to remember that

you are focused on the short term .. (today's walk)

what are your long term options

1. seek legal counsel for divorce from 1st .. & fight through it (or continue to whine about it.)

you MUST RESOLVE the 1st issue.

2. after the divorce/resolution, legalize your current family situation

Here's to our wives and girlfriends...may they never meet! ~ Groucho Marx

no matter what the country / society, married to 1 & family with another is problematic.

i assume you knew the Thai rules for some time & chose to ignore .. you obviously knew you had a problem with the 1st lass & ignored

the lesson for the rest of us is to not get into a similar situation or if / when we do .. resolve the problem not ignore.

all the current 'visa whiners' have known for months that had better act ..

many visa runners took action & are now ok

A few valid points, obviously.

But I don't think you can simply, decently, call me unconcerned/careless.

Well. Here is the case in a nutshell:

1) An almost impossible divorce and a child with another woman.

2) I know that a complicate procedure (child custody) and 400,000 in the bank will give me yearly extensions of stay.

I know that I have a strong fall-back option when visas become more hard to get.

3) Meanwhile, I decide to concentrate on my life - with a very young child.

I decide against the child custody (given the situation, it was far from a sure bet).

I decide against divorce - with a powerful Thai woman.

4) I am taken by surprise on 01/10/2006! Like MANY others.

I learn that parents BELOW 50 years old do not qualify as parents anymore!

No. I never expected that life (and people and laws) would be fair in Thailand.

But I am still baffled by this one! (I admit).

(NOTE: In the VERY same time they manage to make visas (multiple entry) much harder to get :-0)

---

Now, moving forward... Indeed.

Even if I managed to divorce my wife (and I am now seriously working on it with Belgian procedures and laws) and marry my partner:

I have income but I don't have salary.

My parner has income but (much) below 40 K.

So: not clear at all.

What do you say? (Kindly, please).

[papakapbaan]

I still don't get it. You're not recognised as a father... so what? I am also not the father of my niece and I could take my niece to Belgium? Is your daughter officially a child without father? In this case, isn't it sufficient that the mother gives her permission? Any person can take a Thai child on a holiday to Belgium if the parents agree. Or did the law change since last year?

I don't know, Kris. Honestly.

Maybe her age (2.5, very young)

Maybe the fact she is indeed "officially a child without father".

The embassy said very clearly that the mother permission is NOT sufficient.

(Yes, they would only need HER signature, not mine. But in this particular case, they also told me the request would be refused by the Foreign Affairs if the mother did not accompany).

And anyway you may not be the father of yur niece, indeed. But it is your niece.

As far as Belgium is concerned, I am NOTHING in this story.

My daughter would board the plane with a complete stranger. The mother's agreement is not enough.

[papakapbaan]

Your child was born outside of wedlock......no problem.

I presume that your name is on the childs birth certificate.

First step..get a Thai passport.

Then apply for Belgian citizenship.

Get a Belgian passport.

Then get the mothers permission to take the child to Belgium.

-I presume that your name is on the childs birth certificate.

DONE

-First step..get a Thai passport.

DONE

-Then apply for Belgian citizenship.

Get a Belgian passport.

WALL.

Not without wife's agreement.

NO WAY.

-Then get the mothers permission to take the child to Belgium.

(Would not be problem at all. Although she loves her daughter, she is even ready to let her live with me in Belgium, should it be impossible for her (mother) to get a long term visa to stay in Belgium).

I think you have to understand (as I slowly do only now, I admit) that all this situation (in Belgium, not Thailand) is caused by regulations there to protect the interests of legal spouses.

(In this case the rights of my wife against the rights of a child "born outside of wedlock").

Pumper was right to say that "no matter what the country / society, married to 1 & family with another is problematic".

But it remains: if you are below 50: you are not recognized as a father in Thailand!

(Since 01/10/2006)

Personally, it is the only reason why I started this whole thread here (and a few others...)

In Belgium, you are not recognized without the approval of your wife. It's a bit traditionalist (but also has very practical implications) but it makes MUCH more sense.

Edited February 1, 2007 by papakapbaan