Factbox: What happens with Brexit if there's no clear winner of UK election?

[pitrevie]

10 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

You do know it's wise not to publicise what the Brexit strategy is yes?

It will be very complicated, tough and tight time frame.




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That is assuming there is one and that seems extremely unlikely.

[Thongkorn]

Bixit will carry on as planned,  Mrs May will walk in tell them what we want , tell them to think about it then go home.

[William C F Pierce]

16 hours ago, citybiker said:

 

The electorate will not want nor appreciate another GE whilst Brexit talks are ongoing.

 

It's in the DUP's best interests to ensure they support May, in turn NI will get well looked after.

 

 

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Historically when majorities are low government are at risk of being brought down. When there are iIlnesses or a few Bi-elections happen to take place. Then Governments can be brought down. The pressure on the Tory Government will be immense and I would not be surprised that Theresa May resigns by the end of July.

[William C F Pierce]

23 hours ago, citybiker said:

 

I hope the 1922 committee will seriously consider David Davis.

Brexit will make or break that decision.


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Why? He is the one who said on Brexit "I haven't a clue." He is no more a better option than Theresa May.

[citybiker]

Why? He is the one who said on Brexit "I haven't a clue." He is no more a better option than Theresa May.

What we have now is certainly better than anything Labour has to offer the country.

Generation debt, Labour will simply exacerbate the problem


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[JAG]

Go Thai. Let's have a military coup; bloodless of course. Democracy is such a drag and something new would be interesting, if a tad controversial. Be nice to see some new political (well military, really) figures coming to the fore. The Queen could give her backing and then everything will be alright.

Oh dear me no, couldn't be done - a military coup.
The Royal Navy have virtually no sailors left, they got rid of them to pay for the new carriers you see, and anyway they can't do anything until the carriers are ready.

Government is a 24/7 activity which continues at weekends and when it's raining, so that rules the Royal Air Force out.

The Army? Well the Cavalry spend the summer playing Polo and the Winter hunting - sorry no time. You could use the Royal Tank Regiment I suppose but they are probably a bit "socialist" don't you know. The Engineers would get terribly excited about infrastructure and such like, and then sulk because they couldn't spend all the nations money on fixing the drains...
The Gunners would take over all the computer systems, and then insist on everyone doing long technical courses before they could press a button.
The logisticians would withdraw all the nations equipment, cover it in grease and put it away in wharehouses, because "stores are for storing, if they were for issueing stuff they would be called issues, but they're not, they're called stores so there, you can't have any!"
And the Infantry? Far too busy playing Rugby and Cricket.

So you see, it just couldn't be done...

[William C F Pierce]

On 2017-6-10 at 1:38 PM, citybiker said:

What we have now is certainly better than anything Labour has to offer the country.

Generation debt, Labour will simply exacerbate the problem


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That is the mantra of all the foreign owned newpapers who all supported Brexit against the best interest of the UK.

[citybiker]

That is the mantra of all the foreign owned newpapers who all supported Brexit against the best interest of the UK.

I couldn't care less for foreign owned media, they all have one agenda, Guardian, DM, DE & Telegraph..

Red tops are just comics, designed and print focused towards a certain type of intellect.

If a voter is too lazy/ignorant to carry out independent verifiable research to seek balanced unbiased topics important to them and just rely on the media newspapers then who is at fault?



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[jpinx]

8 minutes ago, citybiker said:

I couldn't care less for foreign owned media, they all have one agenda, Guardian, DM, DE & Telegraph..

Red tops are just comics, designed and print focused towards a certain type of intellect.

If a voter is too lazy/ignorant to carry out independent verifiable research to seek balanced unbiased topics important to them and just rely on the media newspapers then who is at fault?



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The politicians are at fault -- for not providing a decent basic education so that people can make reasonably intelligent choices.  Manifestos need to be covered by the advertising standards authority to eliminate the gross abuses perpetrated by political parties on the electorate. 

[rockingrobin]

3 hours ago, citybiker said:

I couldn't care less for foreign owned media, they all have one agenda, Guardian, DM, DE & Telegraph..

Red tops are just comics, designed and print focused towards a certain type of intellect.

If a voter is too lazy/ignorant to carry out independent verifiable research to seek balanced unbiased topics important to them and just rely on the media newspapers then who is at fault?



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Maybe the majority of voters are Time Poor

[citybiker]

The politicians are at fault -- for not providing a decent basic education so that people can make reasonably intelligent choices.  Manifestos need to be covered by the advertising standards authority to eliminate the gross abuses perpetrated by political parties on the electorate. 

I agree in parts to your post yes.

Decent education?

That could go as far back as Blair, consecutive government's are at fault there.

Manifesto's are independently analysed by think tanks already, the only abuses I've seen is parties either unable to cost due to country being skint (not vote winning)

Or

A manifesto riddled with economic inaccuracies & anomalies to confuse the electorate even more when in reality it's poorly drafted & undeliverable in the first place.

An incompetent chancellor doesn't help matters either.


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[jpinx]

6 hours ago, citybiker said:

I agree in parts to your post yes.

Decent education?

That could go as far back as Blair, consecutive government's are at fault there.

Manifesto's are independently analysed by think tanks already, the only abuses I've seen is parties either unable to cost due to country being skint (not vote winning)

Or

A manifesto riddled with economic inaccuracies & anomalies to confuse the electorate even more when in reality it's poorly drafted & undeliverable in the first place.

An incompetent chancellor doesn't help matters either.


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Indeed - but you stop short.  Education was screwed when the 11+ was stopped and streaming was involved to make sure the kids went to the most appropriate place - tech college or University or a good trade apprenticeship.

 

Manifestos are products of political parties and consequentially flawed at their concept.  Founding them on inaccurate statistics, uneven base-lines and blatantly false assumptions is what creates divisive election/referendum results.  UK is NOT governed by referendums -- it's a piss-poor example of FPTP party politics which has singularly failed to produce a decent, stable, all-inclusive government representing the electorate since WWII.

 

"....A weakened government exclusively wooing one small party's MPs, politicians that 99.4% of the public didn't vote for - to imagine that this somehow reflects the "will of the people" is self-evidently fanciful. ........"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40245805

 

 

[William C F Pierce]

14 hours ago, citybiker said:

I couldn't care less for foreign owned media, they all have one agenda, Guardian, DM, DE & Telegraph..

Red tops are just comics, designed and print focused towards a certain type of intellect.

If a voter is too lazy/ignorant to carry out independent verifiable research to seek balanced unbiased topics important to them and just rely on the media newspapers then who is at fault?



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Unfortunately a lot of people do form there opinions based on the newspapers they read. Newspapers are obsessed by their own overdulged self importance [ "It woz the SUN wot won it" famous headline ]. After I voted on the day of the Election I saw the Daily Mail in a public Library. It had the first 12 pages of news devoted for Theresa May and Anti Jeremy Corbyn. Part of the Brexit campaign was about the interferance of Europe in UK politics. No one ever mentions the over interferance influance of foreign newspapers. The laws from Europe were only 13% over 20 years despite what Nigel Farage exagerates. Most European laws deal with product specification and safety that keeps the cost of goods down over the whole of Europe. The immigration problem was caused by our own politicians who free movement of labour immediately, when Germany, France and Italy put a 6 or 7 year delay on the free movement. Europe cannot be blamed for our mistakes, which is why Brexit is wrong.

[Basil B]

On 2017-6-9 at 10:12 AM, citybiker said:

PMTM to go to Buckingham palace to request permission to form a government with the DUP (loosely) supporting her in an informal coalition.

Source: BBC news


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As I recall last time there was a hung Parliament they kept Her Majesty waiting for days while the horse trading went on...

 

This time they are keeping her waiting to open Parliament. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by Basil B

[citybiker]

Unfortunately a lot of people do form there opinions based on the newspapers they read. Newspapers are obsessed by their own overdulged self importance [ "It woz the SUN wot won it" famous headline ]. After I voted on the day of the Election I saw the Daily Mail in a public Library. It had the first 12 pages of news devoted for Theresa May and Anti Jeremy Corbyn. Part of the Brexit campaign was about the interferance of Europe in UK politics. No one ever mentions the over interferance influance of foreign newspapers. The laws from Europe were only 13% over 20 years despite what Nigel Farage exagerates. Most European laws deal with product specification and safety that keeps the cost of goods down over the whole of Europe. The immigration problem was caused by our own politicians who free movement of labour immediately, when Germany, France and Italy put a 6 or 7 year delay on the free movement. Europe cannot be blamed for our mistakes, which is why Brexit is wrong.

I do agree that the media have a staunch over zealous approach & influence.

Brexit wrong....aren't the British electorate allowed the choice to remain or leave?
(Genuine question)


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[lamyai3]

56 minutes ago, citybiker said:

I do agree that the media have a staunch over zealous approach & influence.

Brexit wrong....aren't the British electorate allowed the choice to remain or leave?
(Genuine question)


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If they were hoodwinked in the first place by false promises about what Brexit actually meant, then surely it's highly irresponsible to not offer a second referendum, based on more accurate information.

 

This misdirection was in fact mostly caused by the media, with a vast majority of tabloid articles creating pro Brexit propaganda, coupled with the poll opinions that leave was a very unlikely outcome, causing mass complacency in the younger population, few of whom probably bother much with the tabloids and many of whom didn't bother to vote.

 

The UK was in a strong position in Europe a year ago and now the prospects look very dire for the country - why are none of the major parties seriously considering halting this fiasco? 

[citybiker]

If they were hoodwinked in the first place by false promises about what Brexit actually meant, then surely it's highly irresponsible to not offer a second referendum, based on more accurate information.
 
This misdirection was in fact mostly caused by the media, with a vast majority of tabloid articles creating pro Brexit propaganda, coupled with the poll opinions that leave was a very unlikely outcome, causing mass complacency in the younger population, few of whom probably bother much with the tabloids and many of whom didn't bother to vote.
 
The UK was in a strong position in Europe a year ago and now the prospects look very dire for the country - why are none of the major parties seriously considering halting this fiasco? 

Oh dear.....nobody was hoodwinked, mislead or other it was a simple in or out question. What false promises? Don't get that mixed up with electorate misinterpretation or believe what they want to believe.

It's also highly irresponsible not to respect the democratic decision.

As far this forum along with others I frequent, it has been concluded that the 2 MAIN parties accept the result.




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[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

If they were hoodwinked in the first place by false promises about what Brexit actually meant, then surely it's highly irresponsible to not offer a second referendum, based on more accurate information.

 

This misdirection was in fact mostly caused by the media, with a vast majority of tabloid articles creating pro Brexit propaganda, coupled with the poll opinions that leave was a very unlikely outcome, causing mass complacency in the younger population, few of whom probably bother much with the tabloids and many of whom didn't bother to vote.

 

The UK was in a strong position in Europe a year ago and now the prospects look very dire for the country - why are none of the major parties seriously considering halting this fiasco? 

 

If the quoted post was in mainstream media, it would be  'fake news'. So much of the manstream media sooooo actively supported remain (along with Cameron's government, which came close to breaking laws in it's support), it was astonishing to me personally the following morning that enough of the electorate had made the right decision.

[lamyai3]

9 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

Oh dear.....nobody was hoodwinked, mislead or other it was a simple in or out question. What false promises? Don't get that mixed up with electorate misinterpretation or believe what they want to believe.

It's also highly irresponsible not to respect the democratic decision.

As far this forum along with others I frequent, it has been concluded that the 2 MAIN parties accept the result.




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Yes I can see that the two main parties accept the result and I'm certainly not a LibDem apologist. What I can't understand is why they're pushing blindly on with something that is looking to be more disastrous by the week. As to a democratic vote, this was far from the case - this article from a year ago casts a lot of light on why:

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/brexit-democratic-failure-for-uk-by-kenneth-rogoff-2016-06

 

As to false promises, nothing was mentioned about the relocation of financial markets, the isolation of Britain from it's key trading partner, the huge economic risks for the country. I thought this cartoon which appeared shortly after the referendum was spot on:

 

 

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

Yes I can see that the two main parties accept the result and I'm certainly not a LibDem apologist. What I can't understand is why they're pushing blindly on with something that is looking to be more disastrous by the week. As to a democratic vote, this was far from the case - this article from a year ago casts a lot of light on why:

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/brexit-democratic-failure-for-uk-by-kenneth-rogoff-2016-06

 

As to false promises, nothing was mentioned about the relocation of financial markets, the isolation of Britain from it's key trading partner, the huge economic risks for the country. I thought this cartoon which appeared shortly after the referendum was spot on:

 

 

 

You don't do yourself any favours here posting those sillly pictures.

 

Project Fear has peen exposed as BS over and over and over again. Yet posters like you still promote it with gusto. The EU isn't the world. And the EU is an immensely difficult and complex organisation for the rest of the world to deal with. You will find out how much easier things become for the UK once we  detach ourselves from the EU's teat.

[lamyai3]

9 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

You don't do yourself any favours here posting those sillly pictures.

 

Project Fear has peen exposed as BS over and over and over again. Yet posters like you still promote it with gusto. The EU isn't the world. And the EU is an immensely difficult and complex organisation for the rest of the world to deal with. You will find out how much easier things become for the UK once we  detach ourselves from the EU's teat.

Not really, I think I've kept away from politics in everything I've ever posted on this site. I'm just baffled at the current circumstances, which are demonstrating one misjudgement after another.

 

As to the cartoon from The Times, silly how? Surely you must agree that the Tories just suffered a significant hit in this month's election because of their proposed cuts to the very things that Brexit was purported to allow them invest more money into? 

 

Regarding the article I posted, please read it, and tell me precisely where you think the author is wrong. 

[Khun Han]

19 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

Not really, I think I've kept away from politics in everything I've ever posted on this site. I'm just baffled at the current circumstances, which are demonstrating one misjudgement after another.

 

As to the cartoon from The Times, silly how? Surely you must agree that the Tories just suffered a significant hit in this month's election because of their proposed cuts to the very things that Brexit was purported to allow them invest more money into? 

 

Regarding the article I posted, please read it, and tell me precisely where you think the author is wrong. 

 

Er, which part of any of the huge cartoons you posted lambasts any party other than the Conservative party? Come back to me me when you've resolved that particular issue and I'll look at anything else you wish to debate.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Khun Han

[lamyai3]

1 minute ago, Khun Han said:

 

Er, which part of any of the huge cartoons you posted labasts any party other than the Conservative party? Come back to me me when you've resolved that particular issue and I'll look at anything else you wish to debate.

None. The entire thing was the birthchild of the Conservative party, who else do you think should be lambasted for it? What's baffling is how many of them were in favour of remaining, and appeared to have completely flipped 180°. I'm totally unclear as to why undoing a bad judgement call is off the table. 

 

Sorry if the cartoon is too big for you, it loaded normal size on my phone. If you can't be assed to read the article, don't bother...

[Khun Han]

1 minute ago, lamyai3 said:

None. The entire thing was the birthchild of the Conservative party, who else do you think should be lambasted for it? What's baffling is how many of them were in favour of remaining, and appeared to have completely flipped 180°. I'm totally unclear as to why undoing a bad judgement call is off the table. 

 

Sorry if the cartoon is too big for you, it loaded normal size on my phone. If you can't be assed to read the article, don't bother...

 

It's just that you were faking a balanced view. Thanks for coming clean. You may or may not get the gist of debate in these brexit discussions. Not everybody does. But, welcome, anyway, despite your poor start.

 

And, to answer your points, David Cameron was/is a remain whore. It goes without comment that anyone who was anyone in his government when he was in charge would have on the face of it, committed political suicide by disagreeing with him. And brexit is only a bad judgement call for people with vested interests in the EU. Could somebody please explain to me how we can be economically worse off with tariffs in a trade deficit? Sandyf tried, but his arguments were feeble. Does the EU have a majority share of the world's financial markets? No it doesn't. Why would said financial markets tie their flags to the EU, with all it's regulations and complications ahead of what they already have? It's another myth created by Project Fear. They will do the bare minimum to enable themselves to trade with the EU.

[lamyai3]

7 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

It's just that you were faking a balanced view. Thanks for coming clean. You may or may not get the gist of debate in these brexit discussions. Not everybody does. But, welcome, anyway, despite your poor start.

 

And, to answer your points, David Cameron was/is a remain whore. It goes without comment that anyone who was anyone in his government when he was in charge would have on the face of it, committed political suicide by disagreeing with him. And brexit is only a bad judgement call for people with vested interests in the EU. Could somebody please explain to me how we can be economically worse off with tariffs in a trade deficit? Sandyf tried, but his arguments were feeble. Does the EU have a majority share of the world's financial markets? No it doesn't. Why would said financial markets tie their flags to the EU, with all it's regulations and complications ahead of what they already have? It's another myth created by Project Fear. They will do the bare minimum to enable themselves to trade with the EU.

Does getting the gist of debate mean agreeing with your point of view?

 

You say Cameron was a "remain whore", well so were Theresa May and most of her remaining cabinet. And so was Jeremy Corbyn.

 

So the question remains, what were the vested interests in making a 180° u-turn, for all concerned? Why would a second (informed) referendum be off the table, if the will of the people was so clear? 

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

Does getting the gist of debate mean agreeing with your point of view?

 

You say Cameron was a "remain whore", well so were Theresa May and most of her remaining cabinet. And so was Jeremy Corbyn.

 

So the question remains, what were the vested interests in making a 180° u-turn, for all concerned? Why would a second (informed) referendum be off the table, if the will of the people was so clear? 

 

How about we make some proposals to the EU for leaving, and we put the the EU's counter-proposals to a referendum. Would you be happy with the result?

[lamyai3]

1 minute ago, Khun Han said:

 

How about we make some proposals to the EU for leaving, and we put the the EU's counter-proposals to a referendum. Would you be happy with the result?

I think the disappointing response from the EU might well swing it. 

[Khun Han]

Just now, lamyai3 said:

I think the disappointing response from the EU might well swing it. 

 

So, do you think that the EU's brexit demands should be put to a referendum or not? It's a simple question.

[lamyai3]

1 minute ago, Khun Han said:

 

So, do you think that the EU's brexit demands should be put to a referendum or not? It's a simple question.

I think the EU response is likely to be: United Kingdom: Nul points

 

However, you've steered clear of my own much more preliminary question, which is to question whether Brexit is a valid decision in the first place. Much simpler question. 

[Khun Han]

8 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

I think the EU response is likely to be: United Kingdom: Nul points

 

However, you've steered clear of my own much more preliminary question, which is to question whether Brexit is a valid decision in the first place. Much simpler question. 

 

Ok, don't answer my question about a referendum on the EU's demands. I know it's a remainer's nightmare. I understand. Best to just keep hammering home the Project Fear myths.