Specific Questions On International Schools

[Puwa]

My son will be ready for his first year of primary school in about half a year, and so my wife and I are searching for the right international school here in Chiang Mai. I have researched posts on this board pretty thoroughly, including the pinned items, and now I have specific questions which can probably only be answered by parents who have children studying in the schools now. Searching the archives helped a lot, but many of the posts are three years old or more, so updates are needed.

I have other questions that can be answered best by the schools themselves, but that's a separate matter.

Here we go:

CMIS - In your experience, what is the actual substance and intention of the religious, viz. Christian, tilt in the school? How prevalent is it in the curriculum and culture of the place? Let me explain that my personal belief is that education, for my children anyway, is best pursued in a secular way. I'm not intolerant about it, and I understand that institutions can have varying shades of religious affiliation; I just want to nail down the fact of the matter. By raising this question, I have no intention of sparking a debate, so please let's not get into it. In your experience, do teachers refer to religious concepts or use materials that reflect religious themes? Is there any indirect proselytizing or suggested religious preference expressed? Experience has taught me that for one reason or another, schools do not always accurately describe religion in education, so in addition to asking them directly, I want to hear from parents.

(in fact, by way of a light but telling anecdote, my son is enrolled in a well-known bilingual kindergarten in town, one which downplays its Christian bent in writing and when the staff are asked, but which plays it up ineluctably during parties and events. one day my son explained that he had learned that good people, when they die, will go up into the sky and enter hel_l When asked, he reported that he learned it in school.)

Nakorn Payap - A couple of years ago the prevailing opinion seemed to be that NIS had a nice new campus, but was struggling with both the educational and administrative running of the school. I read that the student body wasn't very international--meaning I guess that it consisted largely of Thai students-- and turnover of teachers seemed high. What about today? Has the school managed to retain good primary-grade teachers? More diversity in the student body? Any parents out there with thoughts on the performance of NIS at the lower grade levels?

Also will be checking out Prem, but it may just cost too much. Mostly I hear praise form parents for the lower grades, and mixed reviews of the high school.

Thanks....Puwa

[Diablo Bob]

Puwa,

Let me address NIS....... first off, I have 2 children in primary(4th & K1)

The only problems that I am aware of concerning the administration of the school were under the previous owner. This would have been at the previous campus. She (The owner) had the propensity to spend the tuition for her own personal use rather than use it to run the school, creating a major cash crisis and illwill of the foreign teaching staff.

I am not aware of a tendency for a turnover in teachers, my sister has been there for around 10 years and everybody that I met 10 years ago is still there! In primary I have only seen a few teachers leave, one in 5th and one in ESL, during the last 4 years.

NIS has students from North America and Europe and Asia (Korea & Japan) in addition to their Thai students. There is a significant population of Farang/Thai students at NIS.

I am biased in my assesment! Even though my sister is a teacher at NIS, I did investigate Prem and CMIS. I was impressed by CMIS, the location stinks in the mornings and afternoon due to traffic. The teachers had a wealth of experience in their home countries and abroad.

Prem, I requested the certifications that their foreign teachers held, only to be told that many were not certified, but essentially college graduates (Education majors) with little to no real teaching experience in their home countries. Prem probably has the nicest campus of all the international schools, if they ever finish construction it will be a real jewel.

[mongoose]

Prem, I requested the certifications that their foreign teachers held, only to be told that many were not certified, but essentially college graduates (Education majors) with little to no real teaching experience in their home countries.

Bob,

Could you please let us know when you got this info about Prem teachers not being certified? Was it this year or how many years ago?

Thanks very much.

[Puwa]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. I'm sure you are better informed about NIS than I am, so your comments are very valuable. In fact, I am encouraged, because I think NIS has a great location.

Happy New Year to you and your family,

Puwa

[southerndog]

I'll give my 2 cents..

I met with the Headmaster's at both Prem and Lanna International school. They both seemed like decent guys looking to improve their schools.

Personally, I wouldn't focus on whether or not teacher's are certified. The fact of the matter, is that the teachers most likely to be certified are the education major's. I myself do not have certification, but I have a master's degree in my concentration area, and would take someone with similar credentials over an education major with a certification any day of the week. (With no other knowledge of the applicant.)

Also, remember, this is Thailand, I'm sure they would expect you to inspect the product first. Tell the principal of the school that you'd like to stop by and sit in on some classes one week... UNANNOUNCED. It's your kids education, this is part of being involved in it.

[mongoose]

Some of the schools do standardized testing like the Stanford 9 tests used in the States. You might ask for the average results for class levels to see how they stack up.

[jomama]

I think one of the most important questions you can ask a school is if the actually has a governing board and who is on it.

So many of the "international schools" in Thailand are privately owned, for-profit businesses, and as businesses, make decisions based on profit. There is an inherent conflict between educating students and profit -- money that could be used for resources or teacher salaries (to attract true professionals) is instead taken as profit. Ask for a list of school board members, and if the school even has one, see if they are actually interested and qualified members of the academic community or a group of business men and women or family members of the owner.

To my knowledge CMIS and Grace are the only "non-profit" schools in Chiang Mai, but in the case of CMIS, the school is run by the Church of Christ in Thailand (CCT), which also runs Payap University, McCormick Hospital and I believe Prince's Royal College. Because these institutions are so large CCT is something of an industry with many layers of Thai administration drawing good salaries, so whether all possible funds go to resources is open to question.

Grace is the only large foreign-run international school in Chiang Mai. Truly a missionary school, its teachers are sponsored by churches in the U.S. and draw no salary from the school itself. While they are on a "mission," the teachers there are experienced professionals who take a year or two off from their teaching jobs to work at the school. Beyond the fundamentalist Christian bent to the place, it does have a good reputation for overall academics and administration.

The German Christian School may also be foreign-run, but it is tiny and teaches in the German language.

[Diablo Bob]

Prem, I requested the certifications that their foreign teachers held, only to be told that many were not certified, but essentially college graduates (Education majors) with little to no real teaching experience in their home countries.

Bob,

Could you please let us know when you got this info about Prem teachers not being certified? Was it this year or how many years ago?

Thanks very much.

This was around 4 yrs. ago....... things probably have changed.

The kids are happy and settled in at NIS and I wouldn't move them unless something drastic necessitated the change.

Don't get me wrong, Prem has a good reputation, I just was looking for something more for the money you spend putting your children in an international school.

[mongoose]

Prem, I requested the certifications that their foreign teachers held, only to be told that many were not certified, but essentially college graduates (Education majors) with little to no real teaching experience in their home countries.

Bob,

Could you please let us know when you got this info about Prem teachers not being certified? Was it this year or how many years ago?

Thanks very much.

This was around 4 yrs. ago....... things probably have changed.

The kids are happy and settled in at NIS and I wouldn't move them unless something drastic necessitated the change.

Don't get me wrong, Prem has a good reputation, I just was looking for something more for the money you spend putting your children in an international school.

Thanks Bob. I think you are right about the money considerations. Prem has changed in 4 years and the teachers have better qualifications but as to the good reputation of Prem, it has a lot to do with what they say. I know you are not considering a change but for anyone considering Prem, I suggest finding out what they really do and what has happened there.

[Ta22]

I am from singapore ,

-

send your kids to singapore . - there your kids would get the best of education .

- good luck .

too much education can make some blind

[Puwa]

I am from singapore ,

-

send your kids to singapore . - there your kids would get the best of education .

- good luck .

too much education can make some blind

obviously

[vultureintree]

CMIS is run by Mormans. They ask on the application form for your religion and if you are not of their faith, you either sit at the back of the bus or not on it at all. From personal experience, they are bigots.

NIS may have a good location but that doesn't make a good education. Most of the prime teachers, non art or non P.E., are good and they don't care what religion you believe in.

[Puwa]

CMIS is run by Mormans. They ask on the application form for your religion and if you are not of their faith, you either sit at the back of the bus or not on it at all. From personal experience, they are bigots.

NIS may have a good location but that doesn't make a good education. Most of the prime teachers, non art or non P.E., are good and they don't care what religion you believe in.

Thanks for your reply. Was your personal experience as a student, teacher, or parent? Both CMIS and NIS?

[jomama]

CMIS is run by Mormans. They ask on the application form for your religion and if you are not of their faith, you either sit at the back of the bus or not on it at all. From personal experience, they are bigots.

CMIS is not run by Mormons. It is run, as I noted, by the Church of Christ in Thailand, which is affiliated with Protestants, the Presbyterians I believe.

[too true]

Prem, I requested the certifications that their foreign teachers held, only to be told that many were not certified, but essentially college graduates (Education majors) with little to no real teaching experience in their home countries.

Bob,

Could you please let us know when you got this info about Prem teachers not being certified? Was it this year or how many years ago?

Thanks very much.

I'm not Bob - don't even have an uncle named Bob, but may have something of interest to share.

Last March I attended an international schools language conference in Bangkok. Got talking to a couple of teachers from Prem and they themselves mentioned that many of the teachers at Prem are there doing their teaching practicum for uni. There are a handful of very experienced and well-qualified teachers, but many of the teachers are young and in their last year of their education degrees. Not that this makes them unfit to teach - it's just not what Prem advertises...

As for NIS - while the location is great and the facilities are nice and shiny new and the teachers are certainly qualified and capable, the resources available to teachers are lacking (to say the least) - there is no professional development offered, the library is pitiful, and teaching materials are basic. The teachers do a fantastic job with what they've got available to them, but I firmly believe that NIS is a business for the owners who know very little about education.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,

TT

[Puwa]

As for NIS - while the location is great and the facilities are nice and shiny new and the teachers are certainly qualified and capable, the resources available to teachers are lacking (to say the least) - there is no professional development offered, the library is pitiful, and teaching materials are basic. The teachers do a fantastic job with what they've got available to them, but I firmly believe that NIS is a business for the owners who know very little about education.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,

TT

Hi TT, thanks for sharing your views. So in the case of NIS, one has to weigh the good teachers against the dubious owners. (As you say, location and new facilities are secondary .) It's good to hear your view that the teachers perform well with limited means, and I understand from several conversations that teacher turnover is fairly low. It's not unusual to find tension between teachers and administration in any school (or for that matter, technical staff and managers in any company or organization).

Allow me to ask yuo a follow up question, since you obviously know some of the players. Do you see the tension worsening or leading the school toward an overall loss of quality? For example, would you say that good teachers are getting fed up and would resign?

[too true]

As for NIS - while the location is great and the facilities are nice and shiny new and the teachers are certainly qualified and capable, the resources available to teachers are lacking (to say the least) - there is no professional development offered, the library is pitiful, and teaching materials are basic. The teachers do a fantastic job with what they've got available to them, but I firmly believe that NIS is a business for the owners who know very little about education.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,

TT

Hi TT, thanks for sharing your views. So in the case of NIS, one has to weigh the good teachers against the dubious owners. (As you say, location and new facilities are secondary .) It's good to hear your view that the teachers perform well with limited means, and I understand from several conversations that teacher turnover is fairly low. It's not unusual to find tension between teachers and administration in any school (or for that matter, technical staff and managers in any company or organization).

Allow me to ask yuo a follow up question, since you obviously know some of the players. Do you see the tension worsening or leading the school toward an overall loss of quality? For example, would you say that good teachers are getting fed up and would resign?

I don't hear nor have I seen that there is much tension at all. Administration doesn't interfere in day to day teaching. Teachers are free to handle their classrooms and duties as they see fit, which is a big benefit of working there. A lot of the teachers there have family in Chiang Mai so aren't likely to leave. That has its pros and cons. A certain amount of turnover is good to keep things fresh and moving forward. I think when a school keeps a large proportion of teachers for a very long time those teachers tend to become used to things the way they have been and the way they are, and don't put up the fight that's necessary to keep conditions for both teachers and students progressing.

[mongoose]

Last March I attended an international schools language conference in Bangkok. Got talking to a couple of teachers from Prem and they themselves mentioned that many of the teachers at Prem are there doing their teaching practicum for uni. There are a handful of very experienced and well-qualified teachers, but many of the teachers are young and in their last year of their education degrees. Not that this makes them unfit to teach - it's just not what Prem advertises...

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,

TT

Interesting input. Prem has some staff called Interns who are doing their teaching practicum for uni but according to the school the numbers are not many and they are not primary classroom teachers, they are helping qualified theachers. Perhaps it is another case of Prem saying they are doing something but actually doing another. More than a bit of smoke and mirrors out there.

[vultureintree]

CMIS is run by Mormans. They ask on the application form for your religion and if you are not of their faith, you either sit at the back of the bus or not on it at all. From personal experience, they are bigots.

NIS may have a good location but that doesn't make a good education. Most of the prime teachers, non art or non P.E., are good and they don't care what religion you believe in.

Thanks for your reply. Was your personal experience as a student, teacher, or parent? Both CMIS and NIS?

Experience as a parent. Also, the head of the school, a lady, told me that Mormans ran the show.

[higgy88]

Puwa, interesting thread and I would like to give you a slightly different perspective. When my Thai wife and I were looking for a school for our first child, about 10 years ago, we checked out all of the options available to us at that time and decided to send him to a Thai school. Not because I was so impressed with the

Thai schools, which I definately am not, but because I was so unimpressed with the international schools. We have since sent both of our children to the same Thai private primary school in our neighborhood, and my son has just started secondary school and he is now going to a Thai government school, specifically the Yupparaj Wittayalai School, in their English Program where almost all of the supjects are taught in English by different teachers from all over the world. It looked like a pretty good program, and my intention was to expose him to as many differnent people with different ways of thinking (and teaching) as possible. If I was doing this now, as you are, I really don't think I would make a different decision. I came to the conclusiion that there were basically 3 types of parents who sent their children to international schools; Those who were only here in Thailand temporally and would soon be heading back to their home country. Those whose children were older and already had some education in their home country and would not be able to fit into a Thai school. And those who, for whatever reason, do not want their children to live in Thailand after finishing school and at the extreme do not even want their children to become a part of Thai society. Actually, my first choice in my children's education would have been to home school them, and I did read up alot on this subject, but that was very quickly shot down by my wife. I do believe that the education that is the most important and that your children will take with them for the rest of their lives will be the education they get at home.

Edited January 12, 2007 by jayenram
Paragraph deleted at request of poster

[earlofwindermere]

There seems to be a lot of rumours/accusations from people who don't even have students at the school that they are talking about. It's a pretty strong statement to suggest that CMIS (or any of the International schols) is anti-Jewish. Perhaps it would be best to stick to facts that can be supported or verified. Otherwise, the topic could become worse than it already is.

Edited January 11, 2007 by earlofwindermere

[Puwa]

There seems to be a lot of rumours/accusations from people who don't even have students at the school that they are talking about. It's a pretty strong statement to suggest that CMIS (or any of the International schols) is anti-Jewish. Perhaps it would be best to stick to facts that can be supported or verified. Otherwise, the topic could become worse than it already is.

Hi Earl, as the original poster, let me agree that accusations based on hearsay are not very helpful, and posters should take care. But let me point out that this is not a topic with lots of verifiable facts. I have invited parents to report their experiences, which are by nature subjective and hard to verify. I'm sure we can weed out the really pointless comments (like "send your kids to school in Singapore"). In general, I have found value in the replies, and want them to continue. You too are welcome to contribute your firsthand experience with any of the schools. Peace...

[earlofwindermere]

Puwa - you are correct. I guess I should have re-phrased my comments as to post firsthand experiences, not rumours. I also plan to send my child to one of the three schools that you have addressed so this topic is a relevant one for me as well.

[too true]

A very good friend of mine worked at CMIS and she is Jewish. If anyone's going to kick you out for religion I'd think it'd be another religious school in CM, not CMIS.

I was thinking last night that it's not the teachers' qualifications that you need to be concerned about, it's the academic level and English proficiency of the students. Teachers, even the best teachers, can only teach what the kids are capable of learning/retaining. And if most of the students are not native English speakers or have not been speaking English since very early in ther lives, they are generally not capable of producing or comprehending grade level material. Most of the native English speaking kids I've seen thrown into international schools in Chiang Mai are bored by the end of the first week because it's not challenging enough for them, unless they're in schools with stringent language requirements like CMIS and Grace.

High school classes here are not at the level they are at in western countries. And that's because the non native kids who make up about 90% of the students would be struggling at the very least and probably even failing. Leaving Lanna, for example, with straight As is not the same as getting straight As in your average school in San Francisco.

[jomama]

Prem, I requested the certifications that their foreign teachers held, only to be told that many were not certified, but essentially college graduates (Education majors) with little to no real teaching experience in their home countries.

Bob,

Could you please let us know when you got this info about Prem teachers not being certified? Was it this year or how many years ago?

Thanks very much.

I'm not Bob - don't even have an uncle named Bob, but may have something of interest to share.

Last March I attended an international schools language conference in Bangkok. Got talking to a couple of teachers from Prem and they themselves mentioned that many of the teachers at Prem are there doing their teaching practicum for uni. There are a handful of very experienced and well-qualified teachers, but many of the teachers are young and in their last year of their education degrees. Not that this makes them unfit to teach - it's just not what Prem advertises...

As for NIS - while the location is great and the facilities are nice and shiny new and the teachers are certainly qualified and capable, the resources available to teachers are lacking (to say the least) - there is no professional development offered, the library is pitiful, and teaching materials are basic. The teachers do a fantastic job with what they've got available to them, but I firmly believe that NIS is a business for the owners who know very little about education.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,

TT

Spot on about both schools. NIS has excellent teachers, but is weak at the top, in both the ownership and administrative elements.

[Puwa]

Good points Higgy, thanks for your reply. I have heard good things about Yupparaj. We are considering such a program, though I recognize it's not for everyone.

Home schooling would be cool but I doubt we could swing it.

There seem to be enough of us here seriously thinking about these issues that perhaps we ought to start our own school.

[Austhaied]

Good points Higgy, thanks for your reply. I have heard good things about Yupparaj. We are considering such a program, though I recognize it's not for everyone.

Home schooling would be cool but I doubt we could swing it.

There seem to be enough of us here seriously thinking about these issues that perhaps we ought to start our own school.

Great idea. Lets call it "The School of Hard Knocks" .. On a more serious note i have 3 little rascals of which 2 of them will need to start at primary school soon, so keep the comments (good, bad and the ugly) coming in.. It's a major decision to make for us with 3 rugrats..So far Nakorn Payap I.S is leading the way for me as i have a mate who's 14 year old is attending there and he has no qualms with the place..Having said that i have never heard him complain about anything for that matter..I guess all the schools have their pro's and con's.. By the way Nakorn Payap's website seems down at the mo, anyone know if they have a new website ??

[mongoose]

There seem to be enough of us here seriously thinking about these issues that perhaps we ought to start our own school.

Alternatively, parents could put effort into communicating with schools about want they want and what they want changed. I have experience with two international schools in Chiang Mai and have found many parents who talk together about school issues but for some reason or another, do not talk much with the school personnel about their concerns. A lot of parent involvement does have effect but it seems to take a lot.

[Puwa]

There seem to be enough of us here seriously thinking about these issues that perhaps we ought to start our own school.

Alternatively, parents could put effort into communicating with schools about want they want and what they want changed. I have experience with two international schools in Chiang Mai and have found many parents who talk together about school issues but for some reason or another, do not talk much with the school personnel about their concerns. A lot of parent involvement does have effect but it seems to take a lot.

That's another important point. It's great for parents to share information among themselves, but to effect change, or even just to get a full picture of what is going on, they have to work with the school. A well organized and dedicated parents' association can have a really positive effect on everyone. When I visited NIS recently I asked whether or not there was something like a a parent-teacher association. The answer was no, not yet, but the school has recognized the need for one and I was told that the school planned to help one get started.

[NT4Y]

Overall, the information you share amongst each other is overwhelming, but also confusing. CMIS, NIS and PREM seems to be a right choice from an International school point of view. Best suggestion would now to look for ourselves during our next visit in May before our final leave to CM in August.

Our eldest Son (13,) is following an IBMYP in the Netherlands right now, so a system change to American or Britisch system coudl influence him as well. PREM therfore seems to be a good choice.

Interesting part of the suggestions is to look within a school by sharing classes, for a WEEK,

Overal it seems that making a choice of school is difficult, but challenging.

As PREM is 25 km outside Chiang Mai, I am wondering how do-able this travelling is. Any experience?