UK to Hold Talks on Joining EU €90bn Ukraine Loan Plan

Starmer wasting more taxpayers money to suck up to the EU again.

What a vile creature he is.

Just now, JonnyF said:

Starmer wasting more taxpayers money to suck up to the EU again.

What a vile creature he is.

What is it you object to? Supporting Ukraine financially in its fight against the Russian invasion or the fact that we will do so in conjunction with the EU?

Will the EU first commit to recognize UK sovereignty in Northern Ireland and Gibraltar, and sign a Non-Aggression Pact against the UK?

Just now, klaikangwon said:

Will the EU first commit to recognize UK sovereignty in Northern Ireland and Gibraltar, and sign a Non-Aggression Pact against the UK?

Notwithstanding the fact that the sovereignty of N.Ireland and Gibraltar has absolutely nothing to do with the situation in Ukraine, the EU and the member states have never indicated that they would take aggressive action against the UK in a dispute between the UK and individual EU member states claims of sovereignty.

Wrt N.Ireland, the EU together with the UK and the RoI fully support - and abide by - the terms of the 'Good Friday Agreement'. Another Agreement wrt sovereignty would add absolutely no value.

Although Spain claims sovereignty over Gibraltar, it generally accepts that the territory is functionally British. The EU does not formally recognise Spain's sovereignty claims but gives Spain a veto over any proposed EU-UK Agreements. An updated EU - UK Agreement, fully supported by Spain, aimed at improving border controls, etc is due to be signed in July 2026.

In summary, there is absolutely no need for the EU to sign a Non-Agression Pact with the UK wrt to Gibraltar, N.Ireland or anywhere else for that matter.

9 hours ago, RayC said:

What is it you object to? Supporting Ukraine financially in its fight against the Russian invasion or the fact that we will do so in conjunction with the EU?

Both actually.

But more so the latter. If Starmer wants to give even more UK taxpayer money to the corrupt Zelensky he doesnt need to kiss the ring of the EU to do it.

What a pathetic specimen he is.

Look forward to Friday's results.

12 hours ago, RayC said:

Although Spain claims sovereignty over Gibraltar

So in fact EU has revanchist territorial claims against its peaceful neighbor UK.

Russia is also revisionist power but Russia owned Ukraine in 1991. Even delusional Putin lives half in the real world. UK has owned Gibraltar since 1783, but Spain still reserves right to aggression? It is deranged, and EU does not condemn it, quietly support it.

So why should UK fund weapons for EU revisionist powers like Germany, with long history of aggression against UK and others?

BTW how was Spain admitted to NATO if it has territorial disputes with existing members, which is banned by NATO treaty? Spain should be removed from NATO.

Just now, klaikangwon said:

So in fact EU has revanchist territorial claims against its peaceful neighbor UK.

Incorrect.

The EU and Spain are two distinct and separate entities. As I explained in my previous post, the EU does not formally recognise Spain's sovereignty claims over Gibraltar but gives Spain a veto over any proposed EU-UK Agreements concerning the territory.

Just now, klaikangwon said:

Russia is also revisionist power but Russia owned Ukraine in 1991. Even delusional Putin lives half in the real world. UK has owned Gibraltar since 1783, but Spain still reserves right to aggression? It is deranged, and EU does not condemn it, quietly support it.

Russia has physically invaded Ukraine. Spain has not attempted to take Gibraltar by force for +/-200 years and there is no evidence to suggest that it plans an invasion any time soon: There is no comparison.

The EU does not condemn 'it' because 'it' does not exist.

Just now, klaikangwon said:

So why should UK fund weapons for EU revisionist powers like Germany, with long history of aggression against UK and others?

I don't understand why you think that the UK will be funding weapons for Germany?

Just now, klaikangwon said:

BTW how was Spain admitted to NATO if it has territorial disputes with existing members, which is banned by NATO treaty? Spain should be removed from NATO.

I don't know but given that the UK (Thatcher) government of the time didn't attempt to block Spain's accession, and that successive UK governments haven't objected to Spain's membership and called for her removal, then I think that it's safe to assume that the UK doesn't see Spain's NATO membership as a problem.

Purpose of loan is, not entirely but mostly, to "loan" Ukraine money to buy weapons from EU itself. This is typical for "military aid" to foreign countries e.g. USA to Egypt, Israel, others. So it is partly strengthen Ukraine armed forces, partly strengthen EU arms industry.

So does UK want to strengthen EU arms industry?

Maybe, but only if EU, including all its members, explicitly disavow claims, or any right to aggression, terroristic, military, or otherwise, against UK.

This is typical "starting point" for friendly relations between nations. Or any relations.

33 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Both actually.

But more so the latter. If Starmer wants to give even more UK taxpayer money to the corrupt Zelensky he doesnt need to kiss the ring of the EU to do it.

What a pathetic specimen he is.

Look forward to Friday's results.

Ukraine may have been - and may still be - a corrupt country but it is a victim of Russian aggression. Presumably you do not view Russian expansionism as a potential threat to wider Europe (including the UK), I do.

The UK government obviously could give financial aid directly to Ukraine, but by doing so via the EU it hopes that the closer ties will bring more contracts to UK companies as Europe ramps up its own defences.

Why would I look forward to Friday's results? If the opinion polls are correct, Reform and the Greens will make major gains which will lead to a greater fracturing of society in the UK: My hope is that the electorate will, at least, reject Rupert Lowe and his wannabe band of Mosley-like Blackshirts.

Handling out billions if not trillions to a highly corrupt regime in Ukraine, seems foolish and senseless. But then what could one expect from the European Union parliament or from the UK politicians ? No wonder all of western europe is going steadyly towards bankrupcy and their cities are just going to the dogs as we say.

Just now, klaikangwon said:

Maybe, but only if EU, including all its members, explicitly disavow claims, or any right to aggression, terroristic, military, or otherwise, against UK.

Where is there any evidence to support the contention for any of that?

Where is "evidence" that country should not boost arms industry of neighbor who refuses to commit to not attack them ?

Dunno. Where might evidence be found. In sky perhaps.

Just now, klaikangwon said:

Purpose of loan is, not entirely but mostly, to "loan" Ukraine money to buy weapons from EU itself. This is typical for "military aid" to foreign countries e.g. USA to Egypt, Israel, others. So it is partly strengthen Ukraine armed forces, partly strengthen EU arms industry.

So does UK want to strengthen EU arms industry?

Maybe, but only if EU, including all its members, explicitly disavow claims, or any right to aggression, terroristic, military, or otherwise, against UK.

This is typical "starting point" for friendly relations between nations. Or any relations.

Uk wants to participate in such EU iniatives in order to be included as a supplier.

As above, Non-Aggression is starting point, not some commercial matter. You do not buy a chicken rice from street vendor who insists on right to hold a gun on you while you eat it.

But even that said, Starmer reason is just "public" reason. UK could also give all "contribution" to EU scheme to Ukraine directly itself, with requirement to spend it ONLY on UK arms products, not a choice of any UK or EU arms product. Giving UK not less, not the same, but more commercial advantage.

Or is claim now that somehow UK, after begging to join scheme, will be preferentially treated getting money from itself and ALSO Germany, France, ...Spain... ? If you believe that, I have chicken rice to sell you...

Just now, klaikangwon said:

Where is "evidence" that country should not boost arms industry of neighbor who refuses to commit to not attack them

Dunno. Where might evidence be found. In sky perhaps.

Well evidence that, say, Russia was planning to invade Ukraine could have been found in the increasingly hostile rhetoric towards Kviv coming from Moscow, Putin's increasing support of the rebel forces inside Ukraine and the build up of Russian forces on Ukraine's border.

Given that the communication between London and Brussels is now quite civil and that there is no evidence to suggest that Spain is about to invade Gibraltar or that the French armed forces are massing in the Channel and on the beaches of Normandy, I'd say that the chances of an invasion of the UK by EU-backed forces in the near future is remote.

I think the UK should rejoin the UK.

Russia in fact explicitly denied any intent to attack Ukraine until the day of the invasion, while Spain formally claims sovereignty of Gibraltar already. Russia did not formally claim sovereignty of Donbas until September 2022, seven months after invading.

So situations different, yes. Everything in this world different somehow. Still, UK sending military subsidies to power that does not even recognize UK territory integrity might be same South Korea loaning to military fund to North Korea today. In both cases maybe no one expect invasion to happen tomorrow... right or not...

Just now, klaikangwon said:

Russia in fact explicitly denied any intent to attack Ukraine until the day of the invasion, while Spain formally claims sovereignty of Gibraltar already. Russia did not formally claim sovereignty of Donbas until September 2022, seven months after invading.

So situations different, yes. Everything in this world different somehow. Still, UK sending military subsidies to power that does not even recognize UK territory integrity might be same South Korea loaning to military fund to North Korea today. In both cases maybe no one expect invasion to happen tomorrow... right or not...

It is completely different. Firstly, N. & S. Korea technically remain in a state of war and do not have diplomatic ties. Secondly, to state the blindingly obvious, Russia HAS invaded Ukraine.

Now contrast that to UK-Spain relations. Although Spain and the UK disagree about the sovereignty of Gibraltar, they are not in a state of war and, in fact, have a good bi-lateral relationship.

Just now, Yellowtail said:

I think the UK should rejoin the UK.

It is radical option.

UK in fact once had "complete" defense industry its own, and could have benefited "loaning" money to Ukraine to subsidise all-UK purchase of weapons, for UK policy objective as well as Ukraine. Which clear what EU now does.

So today, UK premier that sells Chago Island for "negative trillion dollar" also send UK money to build big tank industry in Germany, aircraft industry in France, potato industry Poland... et cetera.

So, UK to join UK is radical option, but also radical option can be considered.

Just now, klaikangwon said:

As above, Non-Aggression is starting point, not some commercial matter. You do not buy a chicken rice from street vendor who insists on right to hold a gun on you while you eat it.

But even that said, Starmer reason is just "public" reason. UK could also give all "contribution" to EU scheme to Ukraine directly itself, with requirement to spend it ONLY on UK arms products, not a choice of any UK or EU arms product. Giving UK not less, not the same, but more commercial advantage.

Or is claim now that somehow UK, after begging to join scheme, will be preferentially treated getting money from itself and ALSO Germany, France, ...Spain... ? If you believe that, I have chicken rice to sell you...

The EU package will be +/-€90bn of which the UK will pay a portion. The hope is that by participating in this loan, the UK will recoup more than it puts in through arms contracts. As the UK has one of the more developed defence sectors in Europe, this hope is not unfounded.

Just now, RayC said:

The EU package will be +/-€90bn of which the UK will pay a portion. The hope is that by participating in this loan, the UK will recoup more than it puts in through arms contracts. As the UK has one of the more developed defence sectors in Europe, this hope is not unfounded.

So you make exactly this claim:

"Or is claim now that somehow UK, after begging to join scheme, will be preferentially treated getting money from itself and ALSO Germany, France, ...Spain... ? If you believe that, I have chicken rice to sell you..."

But claim unfounded. UK is one asking for "concession" of membership. Why would existing partners, that have all power in consortium now, give UK more than it offers?

What is very much more likely is "Second Chagos", where Premier Starmer pays for privilege of saying he is "good boy", and not "bad Brit". Pays with the other's money, naturally.

Once the greatest force for good in the history of the world.

Just now, klaikangwon said:

So you make exactly this claim:

"Or is claim now that somehow UK, after begging to join scheme, will be preferentially treated getting money from itself and ALSO Germany, France, ...Spain... ? If you believe that, I have chicken rice to sell you..."

But claim unfounded. UK is one asking for "concession" of membership. Why would existing partners, that have all power in consortium now, give UK more than it offers?

What is very much more likely is "Second Chagos", where Premier Starmer pays for privilege of saying he is "good boy", and not "bad Brit". Pays with the other's money, naturally.

Without knowing the details of this loan, imagine that Ukraine will be allowed to decide how to spend this money st certain conditions, one of which may be well be that they are free to buy whatever armaments they want but that they have to be purchased from a member of the consortium. Therefore, it is in the UK's interest to be part of this consortium.

Poor man with knife to his throat does not dictate terms to friend offers him loan to buy a bandage. But perhaps people that will accept such arguments deserve the "Chagos Price".

9 hours ago, RayC said:

Ukraine may have been - and may still be - a corrupt country but it is a victim of Russian aggression. Presumably you do not view Russian expansionism as a potential threat to wider Europe (including the UK), I do.

No I dont see it as a threat to the UK. thats propaganda to justify policy decisions. I'm not that naive to fall for this line.

9 hours ago, RayC said:

The UK government obviously could give financial aid directly to Ukraine, but by doing so via the EU it hopes that the closer ties will bring more contracts to UK companies as Europe ramps up its own defences.

Unlikely. They're still bitter about us leaving their corrupt little club.

9 hours ago, RayC said:

Why would I look forward to Friday's results? If the opinion polls are correct, Reform and the Greens will make major gains which will lead to a greater fracturing of society in the UK: My hope is that the electorate will, at least, reject Rupert Lowe and his wannabe band of Mosley-like Blackshirts.

I hope Lowe smashes it. Hopefully Reform get the seats they dont. Your mate Dave Paulden can go back to hypnotising breasts, the pathetic weirdo charlatan. Labour are done. Perhaps forever.

Just now, JonnyF said:

No I dont see it as a threat to the UK. thats propaganda to justify policy decisions. I'm not that naive to fall for this line.

No you're as worldly wise as Chamberlain in the late '30s and some in Central and Eastern Europe in the '50s.

Just now, JonnyF said:

Unlikely. They're still bitter about us leaving their corrupt little club.

There's that sense of self-pitying grievance again

Just now, JonnyF said:

I hope Lowe smashes it. Hopefully Reform get the seats they dont. Your mate Dave Paulden can go back to hypnotising breasts, the pathetic weirdo charlatan. Labour are done. Perhaps forever.

I've make it clear that I have no time for this current version of the Greens.

That you support Lowe and his band of wannabe Blackshirts is no surprise.

4 hours ago, RayC said:

The EU package will be +/-€90bn of which the UK will pay a portion. The hope is that by participating in this loan, the UK will recoup more than it puts in through arms contracts. As the UK has one of the more developed defence sectors in Europe, this hope is not unfounded.

Why not "loan" (give) it to Ukraine directly on the understanding they buy arms from us?

Instead of joining the EU scheme and hoping they throw us a bone.

The EU have hardly proven to be trustworthy "friends and partners" of the UK since Brexit. Or even before. Hence us leaving.

This is about Starmer using uk taxpayers money to ingratiate himself to the EU for a future job in Davos the traitorous simp.

Just now, JonnyF said:

Why not "loan" (give) it to Ukraine directly on the understanding they buy arms from us?

Instead of joining the EU scheme and hoping they throw us a bone.

The EU have hardly proven to be trustworthy "friends and partners" of the UK since Brexit. Or even before. Hence us leaving.

This is about Starmer using uk taxpayers money to ingratiate himself to the EU for a future job in Davos the traitorous simp.

The UK could loan the money directly to Ukraine with the proviso that it is spent on British goods but, as I explained in a previous post, the EU package will be +/-€90bn of which the UK will pay a portion. The hope is that by participating in this loan, the UK will recoup more than it puts in through arms contracts. As the UK has one of the more developed defence sectors in Europe, this hope is not unfounded.

If there was any distrust within the EU of the UK, then it was hardly surprising given the way that the UK approached the Brexit negotiations and the negative rhetoric and duplicitous behaviour displayed by the likes of Johnson. Fortunately, Sunak and Starmer have gone some way to improving relations.

Whatever his faults - and there are many - your obsessive hatred of Starmer is irrational (and probably unhealthy).

3 minutes ago, RayC said:

The hope is that by participating in this loan, the UK will recoup more than it puts in through arms contracts. As the UK has one of the more developed defence sectors in Europe, this hope is not unfounded.

It unfounded on basic commercial ground that no one lets new guy join business consortium to reduce own profit and give to that guy.

Doubly unfounded as EU actively and openly adversarial to UK since at least 2016, for example on trying to reduce its territory.

Triply unfounded as Starmer has given away UK assets before for "less than free", Chagos Island.

Basically case for this as "real" and not "public image" is that Socialist Sir Starmer, KC, is both committed British patriot and excellent negotiator, when in reality, by own statements he opposes the UK power and "national interest", and by his own recent actions got "out negotiated" quite shockingly, indeed probably on purpose.

1 minute ago, klaikangwon said:

It unfounded on basic commercial ground that no one lets new guy join business consortium to reduce own profit and give to that guy.

Doubly unfounded as EU actively and openly adversarial to UK since at least 2016, for example on trying to reduce its territory.

Triply unfounded as Starmer has given away UK assets before for "less than free", Chagos Island.

Basically case for this as "real" and not "public image" is that Socialist Sir Starmer, KC, is both committed British patriot and excellent negotiator, when in reality, by own statements he opposes the UK power and "national interest", and by his own recent actions got "out negotiated" quite shockingly, indeed probably on purpose.

If you say so.