RamdomChances

MF/TT I'm intrested in the fact that you basicaly sell from the farm. How is that arranged, do you have a contract with an Abbatoir ( I'm glad someone put that in cos I did'nt have a clue how to spell it ) or is it local agents. If you take the meat yourself would you get a better price. The guy I know deals direct with the abbatoir, but he's got about 3, 10 wheelers and a few smaller lorrys and buys/sells all the time. He's usually got a stock of about 80-100 and is trying to get planning permission to open his own abbatoir.

He recons at the big markets to get there the night before it opens, a lot of good trading goes on through the night on the side of the road. "Sahagorn" is co-operative for those that did'nt know, it's where we sell our milk as well, I think they must all have weigh bridges ours does as well.

One of the big problems IMO is that if a falang want to get into beef and buy/sell at the markets, then he's up against some very shrewd operators, it's not a case of ripping the falang off. These guy's will always try and get the best price wether you Thai/Falang or from Mars. Probably trying to get into higher quality beef and selling from the farm would be a better optian. Where do you buy your "good quality" beef stock from ?

You want to check the Issan froum out, as Burriram is in Issan, not Central Thailand. Loads of members from around that way.

(1) When cattle are sold in Thailand, are they sold by weight and if so where are the scales that are used to weigh them (at the cattle market or where?). Also, how is the price per kilogram decided (by simpe negotiation or is their some sort of reference price listed somewhere?)

I'm not really into beef, so I wont be suprised if someone contradicts me on this. Most markets there is'nt a scales beef being bought on sight. Slaughter houses have scales and this is where the price/kg comes from. You might get a better price for certain types of cattle. You can by tape measures that go around the cow to give you an indication of the weight. Most "market" trade seems to be people selling to the "feedlot" guys i.e selling 12-14 month cows for fattening up or just inter farm trading. At least thats what a friend of mine that's a pretty heavy cow trader told me. Most of the guys at the markets will of been doing this since they were kid's mabye helping out thier father or something, they are'nt usually far out on their valueation.

Also when selling cattle - is there any paper work associated with the transactions & livestock movements other than perhaps a receipt for the money paid?

Yea you get a Ba Wat (sp) which is supposed to have the history of the cow ect on it (oh thats for dairy). In reality they are often not filled out properly, if at all, although from bigger well managed farms they are.Stranglely though I've never had a recipt The gov do put travel restrictions on cattle sometimes, usually with a F+M outbreak. Maizefarmer, did'nt Korat have restrictions about a year-18 month ago ?

I cannot really stomach the thought of these dairy cows as beef cattle, my god.

a cow is a cow mate, we sell some of our non-productive ones off for beef

And someone said the native los cow that looks jersey/brahman is of little use for dairy or beef

I think what was meant was it had limited milk production and was too small for beef,I don't really know anything about the breed though. The water bit's I could'nt tell you

Thanks for the link Chownah.

Also, in regards to nitrate in fang mak....it was my understanding from having read some stuff on the internet that when you treat rice straw with urea that the urea gets converted to ammonia....if this is correct then I guess there would not be any nitrate problem....is there such a thing as an ammonia problem? Does your fang mak smell a bit like ammonia?

Yes thats right about the amonia. I was just thinking urea=nitrogen=nitrates. The fang mak smells of straw and pee so yes I suppose it does smell of ammonia. As to there being an "amonia" problem I just dont know. I'd like to be able to feed it for about 3-4 months this year, to cover the shortfall, although at least I will have some fresh as well. Last year we did'nt have a problem until about 6 months after. Hopefuly the year after I can replace it complatly with home produced silage

The easy way is just to click on "reply" when you open the PM

Chownah

Yes you have to wait a for a few days of dry weather. Not much different from normal start of rainy season planting. Let it rain first, dry it out a bit then plough

Bannork

Yes I've heard the same thing myself

Bina

I was talking about nitrate build up giving fang mak, as you treat it with urea (basicaly nitrogenAI've found no warings on the internet about long term use of the stuff.

The prussic acid bit is I admit confusing me as every website says that forage sorgham is high in prussic acid, but it's used extensivly and we've never had any problems with it, nor have I heard of anyone else having any

While I wait for RDC to come back to me with some soil info, if anyone wants to take up the subject or use the thread to ask a question or add comment, I have a ton of work to do – so by all means go ahead anyone, feel free to add whatever comment you wish.

Tim

Hmm, I would'nt hold your breath on that mate, did'nt manage to get it done then and been having a few of "those day's" myself. The wife's had to go down to BKK and won't be back until tomorrow, so that would be the earliest then we would have to wait for the results.

I'm pretty much commited this year to ruzzi/jumbo combination about a 70/30 split. We are gradualy re-ploughing and seeding at the moment as there's only a couple of months of rainy season left. Next year as long as the ruzzi is sucsessful (I've had it outgrown by local grass before but that was probably down to me) then the jumbo will go or we'll grow it for silage. We are still sticking some jumbo in as it's ready to eat in a month and if hand cut I'll get at least one more crop out of it before the end of rainy season, probably two or three as it still grows into the dry season.

So any "quick'n'dirty" advice would be fine. I'm intrested in fertiliser requirments but understand that it will have a lot to do with soil conditions.

I'm also intrested in this "yaa kon yippun" a few people have told me it's very good (Sorry guy's I knew it was'nt Napier but I'm still not sure what exactly it is)

Thanks for the links guy's, yes Chownah I think I did originaly send that one to you. Z21 if you've got anything on the Thai name for it just stick it in dont worry about the spelling I'll take it from there, good link by the way I did'nt have that one, better pics than some of the others. Did anyone get back to you on the "nitrate" build up issue?

Yaa jumbo is a type of forage Sorghum also can be called Chow Fang Wan (Sweet sorghum), theres a few different varities, al lot of stuff on the net mentions problems with prussic acid, but it's used extensivly here. I don't know about you lot but I always have problems converting genral thai names for stuff, into, comman westen names, of latin.

Here's a pic of "jumbo"

It's intresting that they have planted it in rows, we usualy just hand spread ours but were talking about doing it this way recently. If you have to hand cut, the size of it make's it much easier and as long as it's not too old the cows will eat the lot stems and all, If you have a shreader it's even better

RC

University students in Thailand from 10 to 50% supplement their funds in the same way

Do you just make these figures up ? 10-50 is a bit of a jump.

I'd just like to add my support to all those that think this guy is "talking out of an orifice usually reserved for other bodily functions."

Well i married a bar girl and i did so because i'm obviously sad and desperate.

What is this bullshit stigma attached to "bargirls"?

It's probably cos your so short fat and old dave

Is is cos the unsuccsesful ones can't afford it ?

TT yea, thanks, I think you are right. Oddly "yaa jumbo" which you would think could be Elephant grass is'nt, it's a forage sorgham

Ok cheers mate

I've never botherd, getting the soil checked, I'll try and get it sorted outtoday. I know where to get it done but know one has any idea how long it will take.

IssanGeorge, Soil checking is avalible everywhere, I can't remember the name of the gov office you get it done in (no one here remembers either) but I will get back to you. As for co-ops you really need to ask localy also you need to find out if they have and vacancies, some are full.

Tim a few points/a bit more info for you.

My land is rolling and on a slope, the lower parts become quite water logged in the rainy season, but not flooded, The top half tends to be redish, small stones, while the bottom soft and balck. We've grown maize, sunflower, peanuts.sucsessfully on both types

Idealy I'm looking for something to strip graze. I know cut'n'carry is more efficiant but I only have a 20 hp 2wd kubuta and no cutter for it. We have tried a "chop" on the back of it previously but unless its optimal conditions i.e nice and dry it really struggles.

I'm happy to swap a couple of % of CP for something that has less water requirments (in the assumption that it will last better in the dry season?? or respond better to sprinklers) To me Ruzzi fit's the bill very well but I'll defer your your supirior knowlage on the subject. I probably have'nt enough land or equipment for a "perfect solution" so it just a case of finding the best fit. I'm pretty poor on my knowlage of fertilisers, basicaly just relying on the "what everyone else does" approch.

Any idea what "napier" grass is in Thai ?a few people have mentioned "Yaa kun yippun" to me any one know what that is, it literaly translates to "Hairy Japanese Grass"(it's not hairy though ) The only thing I can come up with is this Japanese millet http://www.fao.org/ag/AGA/AGAP/FRG/AFRIS/Data/81.HTM which on paper at least would seem to fit the bill

RC

Ok cheers both, any input would be appreciated.

z21, that was the only explanation I could come up with but I was only guesing.

MF, I'm not really worried about straight "fang" I know most of the pro's and con's with it and it's not something we are keen to use if at all possible.

For those that don't know "Fang" rice straw

Pro's, about the cheapest forage you can buy, avalible in hugh quantities, keeps well, good source of fibre

Con's, High silicon content is hard to digest, its fairly unplatable, low in everything (protien, vitiamins ect think of something slightly better than a cardboard box), can be difficult to get hold of at some times of the year, you have to buy in bulk to get a good price.

It can be treated with:-

Urea (what we are talking about) and is called fang mak, this makes it more palatable (mine were probably eating about 20-30% more of the suff than straight fang), it's easier to digest and it up's the protien to something like 7-8% (depending on where you read, I never got mine checked)

Molasis, makes it more palatable and is a popular option supposed to add to the carb intake as well.

Salt water, just sprinkled over it with a watering can, just makes it more palatable (oh by palatable I mean the cows like to eat it)

Fang is usually just used for maintance, if you are looking for weight gain, or milk, it's not very good, if possible give fresh forag or silage, fang is used by many farms but if you are doing beef you will need a bigger percentage of some form of concentrate to put weight on (eating into your profits)

MF do you just grow the Maize for silage, we could probaly only get one crop of maize in here due to its water requirments, although if you cutting while still fairly young I suppose you might get two.Only seen it grown as a cash crop, but know that they do use it a lot back home for cattle feed. My Brother-in-law does maize then sunflower, which is one of the most popular combinations here.

Once again thanks guy's RC

Abate (temephos) sand granules would be given to all households. About 2,000 kilograms of Abate sand are handed out each year, valued at 6 million baht.

This stuff is usually avalible free from your local clinic/health center, well it is here anyway

Abate (temephos) sand granules would be given to all households. About 2,000 kilograms of Abate sand are handed out each year, valued at 6 million baht.

This stuff is usually avalible free from your local clinic/health center, well it is here anyway

Thanks monty, that was quick. I'll take a look.

RC

I' will shortly be getting a much better internet connection and have been thinking about setting up some sort of farming for falangs forum. I was wondering are there any free sofware packages out there? what about hosting ?

I would'nt expect it to be very busy, more a sort of knowlage bank sort of thing. At the moment this forum is one of the only places for falangs to really get any info on the subject, with some excelent articles writen on numerus threads, the only problem is they tend to get lost within the more mainstream posts.

I'm not looking to make it any sort of comercial succsess just a place where the "old timers" with farms or smallholdings can swap information and somewhere where people considering moving "upcountry" and starting some sort of venture can get some practical advice.

One for admin, would it be possible to put a link here (say in my signiture) to it if I decide to follow the idea through, as we would in no way be in compitition with you.

As I've said it's just an idea at the moment but any help would be appreciated.

Cheers RC

When changing the diet of “milkers”, you cannot/should not feed Fang or fang Mak one day, and then suddenly change over to grass – or vis-a-versus – the next day.

Yea I know that mate, the only thing I'd say from is if you are upgrading your forage i.e going from fang to decent fresh stuff the seems little reason to do it gradualy, as the is no drop in production.

Can I help you – I’ll do my best RDC. But before that, let me see that I understand your situation properly first.

You have 60 rai and 70 head of stock. In theory you have enough land to grow sufficient forage for the whole year – whether ensiled or fresh (I ensile for the dry season only because of economics, not of direct feed cost, but because of fuel costs to sustain the same growth in the dry season – although I do irrigate- just enough to maintain growth). But that’s another story – the question is: why aren’t you using the land to its full potential. Is water a problem, is it that you don’t have a tractor/cutter.

I want to understand that first, then we can discuss a way around the problem, or what has to be done to get the most out of that land, because (subject to correction) I get the impression that your land is not supporting your livestock count – why.

Actually I was asking weather you knew of any long term problems with fang mak (urea treated straw) as we started off getting excelent results from it but over time they just diminished down to straight "fang" levels. Saying that I'm more than happy to get some advice on the overall set up so I'll give you some background on the "why" bit. First the land, yes we have about 70 rai, but thats the whole plot, house, shop, and 15 rai that we give to my mother-in-law/brother-in -law to use, plus the different paddock's for the cows

the pic shows the main one with the feeding area on the right and the milking palour/extra feeding trough at the top

This was taken just after we open'd it but it has about 5 rai inside, which we now grow Ruzzi and I section off. Anyway the bottom line is I'm left with about 40 rai.

A bit of history

When I fisrt moved up here with the idea of starting the farm I was pretty unsure about the whole sheme, all but 7 rai of land was rented out and would not be avalible for another 2 years, so we built a smallish milking palour (10 stalls) holding area and some feed stations on what we had and just chucked some jumbo into the rest. I started out with about 10 cows to see if it was actually profitable, we were just hand cutting the jumbo. As the farm grew there was no way the couple of rai we has would support the cows, but we had aquired a lorry as well running mainly chicken food and I was looking for extra work for it. The province next to us there is a big co-op growing pangular, so we started doing runs every 2 day (its bailed but does'nt keep long) and selling /delivering it to the local farms as well, this proved quite succsessful, so much in fact that I was virtually geting my own pangular for free.

With the avalibliity of virtually unlimited cheap forage,we expanded more, the original farm was no longer big enough, but by this time the rest of the land was back in our hands. So we decided to build a new set up, the first year we had the land back I was'nt really interested in doing much with it as we were busy building the new farm and my forage was taken care of, so I just let the family use it.

The following year I was keen to try cash crops, using the cash to pay for forage, we had grown to about 100+ milkers by then. It was around this time the problems started, the co-op selling the grass was getting more orders than it could supply so basicaly started rationing the stuff, we were ok but could not increase our order, then all of a sudden they decided to basicaly double the price of the stuff from 1 bhat/kg to 2bhat/kg. I could'nt sell any at that price and paying the transport costs plus extra for the grass just for me was'nt viable, so with the already put over to cash crops we had to look for an alternative. Enter "Fang Mak". Initialy we just went over to fang while I had the fang mak silos built, milk production droped by about 40% but my costs were sugnificantly reduced as well, not enough to make up the differance but it helped. When the "mak"came online my production shot straight back up and remained there, nearly to the levels when we were feeding fresh grass (pangolar) but consiberably cheaper, problem sloved we thought, so continued with trying various cash crops looking for things we could sell and use the reminder for the cattle, had some sucsess with peanuts using the palnt as a suplement to the fang mak and selling the nuts. About 6 months after feeding the Mak the milk production started to drop off and continued doing so back down to the levels of straight fang, on top of this fang had nearly doubled in price due to fuel price increaces and quite frankly for the first time since opening we were making a loss. So we downsized and decided to switch to trying to grow enough forage for the cows.

Enter this year, we had some very early rain here about feb/march so decided to chuck some jumbo in and see what happened, it started slow but using some sprinklers we managed to get enough that we we cutting by april, we are still cutting the same stuff, but gradualy, instead of cutting and re-growing, we are cutting and re-ploughing and going over to russi, well in parts. Some we are going to continue with jumbo as the lower parts of the land get a bit wet for ruzzi. Milk production is back up and profitablity/head is better than it ever has (although with less cows).

So basicaly this year is the first year we have really looked at forage managment on a large scale (we tried a few rai of differant stuff previously) and the nessesity of getting something up and growing lead to the whole lot being put over to Jumbo. One of the problems at the moment is when it gets too wet we cant get on the land to cut so have had to graze the cows on some parts of it. Jumbo does'nt take well to grazing with little re-growth, so we are slowly changing to russi. I'm hoping to have enough until about dec/jan but there wont be enough for silage. I can keep about 10 rai gowing with sprinklers and am hoping that and with additional fan/fang mak will see me through the dry season, but overall at the moment I'd say our land utilisation was only at about 50%, some areas of the jumbo did'nt take too well as we planted so early, plus it all came at more or less the same time so some of what we are feeding is past it's best. I'm planning on switching more to ruzzi and strip grazing, with some Jumbo as a back up for cut'n'carry, if the ruzzi is sucsessful I'll probably switch over completly, or mabye grow jumbo for silage, the fang mak silos can easily be converted for silage making.

Any suggestions are more than welcome

Here's a link for treated and untreated rice straw, I've yet to find anything on the long term affect of treated straw.

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGA/AGAP/FRG/AFRIS/Data/550.HTM

Cheers RC

Z21 it's the same here with electric fence, but you just buy a small control box and run it from the mains. They are fairly cheap about 1000 bhat I think , never seen any disappear.

Tim

Yea we used to buy in fresh Pangular (sp) grass, sell it localy as well when we used to have a lorry. It just got too expencive, people were stoping buying it and I could'nt really afford to keep the lorry going just for us, but the milk yields we're better. To be honest I'm probably not buying in the stock to get much over say about 14/kg a head. I'm not from a farming background and neither really is the misses so I've just had to learn everything myself. We dont really have the facilities for the really good milkers here, the medical back up is pretty poor as well.

I think the milk indistry here in Nakon is not as mature as in Korat, where you tend to find larger farms and probably better support.

Going from giving Pangular to just "fang" the milk production droped about 40%, but my cost's did come down a lot as well. Fang Mak initialy I was approching the levels of pangular say about 10% less, but after about 3 months it just started to drop off eventually ending up at the levels of straight "fang". Mabye you could help me out a bit here as i've done loads of internet searches trying to find any long term problems with fang mak, but have yet come up with anything.

I'll probably feed it this dry season as well, but before we were geared to growing cash crops and buying forage so at least this year I should be able to get away with just about 3-4 months of the stuff. Going back about 6 months we had staff problems i.e we did'nt have any. Me and the wife were milking about 50 and then I was hand cutting(not tractor) jumbo twice aday for them, right in the middle of hot season as well, good way to lose weight !!

climate controlled barn

I've got one of these....yes you've guest it, it controled by the climate

Peter check out this link for a start

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=77439&hl=

We are talking a lot about dairy on it. I be wary about importing Jersey-Holstein Crossbreds, it probably wont be cost effective. What sort of operation have you in mind ?

Also if you do a search on something like "farming" there's a lot of stuff already been writen.

RC

Well cheers Maizefarmer for those excellent replies. Just looking for things to comment on but you have'nt left me much as I fully agree with everything you have writen.

As two VERY general "rules of thumb" yes approx 1 rai will support 1 cow and expect to pay about 1000 bhat/1 month age for beef (thats very general but will give you a starting point). Strip grazing or cut'n'carry is the way to go for max land utilisation

Your getting really good yields my ave over 5 years is just over 12kg, most farms here are lucky to get 10. Do you feed your concentrate "ad lib" a lot of farms that mix their own do as it's cheaper, we feed 1-2 , 1kg concentrate/2 kg milk. The drying off we do exactly the same as you, except we still just give 18%. As you said good quality forage is the key, something I'm still working on We actually get better yields in the rainy season but thats due to the avalibliity of fresh forage. Dry season we make do with a small amout of fresh forage form irrigated land, fang (rice straw) and Fang Mak (urea treated rice straw)

Butter fat is checked at our co-op and we sometimes get a print out of it but generally no one seems to bother.

The problem is not so much the heat (which the cows don’t like) – more so though it’s humidity: dairy cows hate it.

Spot on the humidity does'nt do much for mastitis either which is always worse in rainy season

Baht20k for a pregnant 2nd or 3rd milker is not bad, but again – that is only half the story. You are not telling me if that animal is coming with a verifiable milk production record that you have seen and which is a genuine record. Is that animal tagged or branded and what semen is been used. That price can be good or bad – depending on the animals history and why it is been sold.

Yes of course I was just using it as an example. Getting "verifiable milk production records" is very rare, best you get is actually seeing it milked and weighing it. Mostly they will be tagged with the "ba wat" paper but to be honest it's not worth the paper its written on some times as many farmers don't bother to fill them out and a friendly vet, a little bit of cash and you've got a new tag and paper. What sperm used to be honest I really could'nt care as long as it produces. The "why it's being sold" bit is usually the crutial factor as no one wants to sell off their best cows. You can turn quite a tidy profit off an ave milker, say giving about 20 kg when first lactating even it you have to sell it for beef at a later date, basicaly if something drops to about 7 kg and is'nt pregnant we get rid of it usaully at beef prices.

We buy and sell far more now than we used to, mainly due to the drop on dairy cattle prices. Back to my imaginary ave milker Say you buy it in at 20,000 you should be able to sell for beef at 15,000, well you make the differance back in a couple of months, say get six months resanble profit off it and if you have any conception problems just sell it, if not and it turns out "a good'un" your quids in. When buying at the moment I tend to factor what I will pay over the beef price, so size of cow comes into it as well. A smallish "sow" (first pregnancy) for example I might be able to only sell it for beef at 12,000 bhat so if they are asking 20,000 bhat for it I need to make at least 8,000 bhat to break even....better be a dam good cow . I tend not to buy the more expensive High producers as my feed levels are not as high as yours, a bit like buying a ferrari and putting diesil in it

Keeping and raising calfs even at the present cattle prices you will still get a return even as you say "it might only be a couple of 1000'nd bhat" I've done the maths myself, but you do tend to tie up a lot of money for a long time, feeding them really does eat into you profits, plus if like me you struggle to grow enough forage, they tend to eat a scarce resorce. I feel the price of dairy will go back up in a few years as less and less people rear their own calfs, the overall diry population here must be in decline.

Timing wise we are about the same as you, used to do 100 in about 2 hrs milking about sixty now something like hour and a half. Keeping dairy is water intensive, not only have you the drinking water but the milking palour, and machines need washing down twice a day, along with the cows...well their udders anywa. I have both a bore and a pond, drinking water shoud be freely avalible at all times and idealy situated under some shade.

Thanks for the sialge info, I'll get back to you if I need any details....basicaly if I find myself with a surplus

Cheers RC

sorry double post

Hi mate, welcome aboard

I see some postings are about what to feed, when to feed and the relative costs - if anyone whats detail on this only to happy to share how I go about it - but other wise won't bore you all

go on bore us I'm tiny in comparison, just 60 odd rai and about 70 dairy (all milkers) ( I was up to over 100 last year but have downsised). I see you mentioned fish meal, do you mix your own food ?

What sort of Ave milk yeild are you getting, we feed "Thunder" concentrate 18% protien, it's a lot cheper than CP and "jumbo" either cut'n'carried or just grazed and at the moment am getting about 13 kg/head/day (just the milkers) The ave around here is around 10 Kg. Do you make silage ? With that much land you must have an excess of forage, we struggle just to get enough "fresh" without even thinging about silage. Do you raise your own dairy ? We used to but it's just not worth it at the moment with the price of dairy droping so much, mabye a bit short sighted. What sort of price are dairy going for around there? I can buy in decent milkers (pregnant, second or third calf) for around 20,000 at the moment.

Loads of dairy farms have shut around here in the last year mainly do to the increced price of food/hay ect but the milk staying the same. How much do you get for you milk ? we get about 11.55 Bhat/kg

A lot of places here mix their own "concentrate" and it's cheaper but I don't really have the storage/mixing facilities or the time /staff to do it, How many staf have you got? What sort of milking machines do you use.

Feeling a bit green looking at the pic of you tractor, put's my little Kubuta to shame

RC

and how come RC never mentioned native indigenous thai cows as a specific breed when we were all discussing cattle,

Cos I don't really know anything about them . I've been to loads of shows and markets and have yet to come across one.

Here a pic for thelink by z21

Z21 to answer your question

Does anyone have information on Thai Indigenous Cattle in Isaan - where ? type ? contact ? etc...

No, not to my knowlage, the "farming" comunity on this forum is pretty small and they have never been mentioned in the past, mabye someone like "teletiger" might know as he's into beef cattle more than I am but until now I've never come across them. They do look simular to some types i've seen grazing on the side of the road, but that was down south.

I can also provide other references to scientific work on this breed, however I shall not do that, as in doing so it could be regarded as being patronising, if not downright boring

Well I'd be interested in any additional links and I'm sure others would be as well. About that link, There were quite a few points I dont really agree with

Consequently, low quality roughages such as rice straw are not well utilized and some are burnt in the fields

This is just not true, yes some is burn't in field's but not much, He's probably confusing it with burning of the stubble. Rice straw is by far the most heavily utilised feed in Thailand. They then go on to say that in the tests

Metabolism trials were conducted in sheep, Brahman cattle, swamp buffalo and Thai native cattle given Ruzi grass hay with different levels of soybean meal in order to examine the effect of protein levels on fiber digestion. The quality of hay used in each trial was slightly different and the crude protein (CP) contents in four dietary treatments ranged from about 3, 6.5, 10 and 13.5%

So the test were'nt even carried out using rice straw but a diet far above that which most cattle are given here (i.e Ruzi grass and soybean meal). Which is hardly an indication in their ability to "utilize low quality roughage". I also did'nt really understand the big thing about "fiber digestibility" as I'd always thought the big thing with "fiber" was it was'nt digestible.

You might find that although the local Brahman have a higher energy requirment that because they are larger you may have a better meat to bone ratio than the possibly more efficent "thai" cattle. Anyone that tells you

the Brahman has a very poor reproductive record and does not happy on poor grazing.

Is quite frankly talking out of their ass.

How can we be sure that the farms are cooling the milk rapidly and keeping the milk in the

churns mixed and cool until collected?

The milk is checked at the dairy/collection center so it's in your best intrests to try and keep it cool and send it as soon as possible. It's basicaly milked and then straight to the dairy

Definition of Cool - below that which bacteria multiply?

No Idea, don't you have to freeze it to totaly stop bacteria from multiplying ?

The first collection of the day stays on the pickup until the last is collected. Plenty of time for the milk to heat up and become suspect?

Most places you deliver, but if they collect it's done twice a day to coinside with the milkings again the milk would be checked at the dairy not the farm(all the churns are numbered), but yes collecting it does probably lead to more bacteria as the time from the cow to the chiller tanks is probably greater

The smaller farms give most concern They don't seem to have the resources to hold the milk properly!

As I have tried to say small farms don't hold or store milk it goes straight from the cow to a dairy/collection center is checked fo anti-biotics and bacteria then bulk sold on (with further checks when it gets to the buyer). I've yet to see a farm with chiller tanks instaled