truethailand

"The grass roots red shirts have some very valid issues". Can you explain what these issues are and how you would go about correcting them....without mentioning any politician.

I asked you why you weren't talking about social issues in the Thaksin's Lawyer thread (several times) ... I see you still aren't talking about them.

He doesn't know. That's why he needs to ask.

Just throwing out the bait for all to see. Those negative replies, not all, are the people controlling these forums .This group of posters attacks on mass like piranhas out numbering those in opposition. I would invite everybody to review what these people post, I dont hide my social values and hatred of certain people. takk included but I can only summise after reviewing some of your posts it is a concerted and orchestrated ploy to shout down others who post here free of any political agenda. Try keeping your tainted mitts of the keyboard and let others decide. Its been a sad day ever since this great website was linked to the Nation

Hold onto your hats. This could get quite interesting.

As for convoluted Thai soap opera endings, what odds Thaksin to call up a few old buddies to get him released? And just when you say, it could never happen, just remember TIT.

Agreed.

At the same time there is no reason for the government to go to bat for these fools on a simple trespassing charge, if the conviction includes spying charges, the interesting point will be; spying for whom?

Espionage is espionage, and it isn't as though a planned small PAD day trip across the border can be dressed up to be in Cambodia's national interest. Doesn't matter if he was doing it provably on anyone's behalf or not I would imagine.

They would presumably have to prove what the actual spying was, however. What Cambodian secrets were compromised or threatened to be compromised by their "spying?"

Espionage on a military base in Cambodia? This so-called military base is 55 meters within a disputed border? Is unfenced and unguarded?

The 7 traveled together into Cambodia's territory for 150 feet or so. 5 are sent on their way with a $250 fines... the other two are sent to prison for 8 and 6 years? Guilty of trespassing, yes. Guilty of espionage? phffft.

What was the espionage?

The phrase "trumped-up charges" come to mind.

.

Unusual for you Buchholz a liitle sympathy for our intruder friends. Maybe a colour of your liking. I agree why charge some with more serious charges...just <deleted> shoot them all and have done with it. Waste of space army sponsored nationalists.

Of course there's not going to be a coup. Those in effective control of the army like this government.

And a majority of Thais also like this government, or at least, don't like the alternative.

"The grass roots red shirts have some very valid issues". Can you explain what these issues are and how you would go about correcting them....without mentioning any politician.

I see the Thaksin Tag Team Tangenters are back in livery,

trying to distract from the actual discussion..

That's no way to describe Insight, jdinasia and buchholz. Please retract this inflammatory statement at once.

I have a few words to describe them if you are stuck... Taxi

That's three of the ... ahem ... "GoF7" nailed....

No names

"What do the "red shirts" want? Democracy or Thaksin?" I trust this is an unpaid obsession... Its really is unnatural

Have people read some of the BS in these reports? Here's statement #59 by "Anonymous Witness 22"

After the 2nd Infantry Battalion breached the Red Shirt barricades, they secured the entire Ratchaprasong area. By 17:00 hours, the Army had fully secured all of the Central World buildings. Allcivilians were removed from the buildings, including numerous security guards who worked at Central World. After the civilians were removed, soldiers of the 2nd Infantry Battalion were posted outside Central World to prevent anyone from approaching or entering. The purpose of this exercise was to

permit a team of arsonists contracted by the Army to plant incendiary devices inside Central World. These devices were intentionally ignited at approximately 17:45 hours, destroying the Zen store building. The operation was planned by the Army Leadership, with the consent and approval of the Government Leadership, several weeks in advance of May 19. The purpose of the operation was to cement in the public mind the concept that the Red Shirt movement was violent and dangerous, which the Government Leadership and the Army Leadership believed would create the impression that the Army's actions in suppressing the Red Shirts were justified. In fact, the Red Shirts had nothing to do

with the fires that destroyed part of the Central World complex.

Available here http://www.thaiaccou...ness-No.-22.pdf

I'm sure there's more than a few witnesses on ThaiVisa who can testify that the reds had planted "incendiary devices" days before May 19th, along with the footage of red shirts burning and looting the place.

/edit - Here's my own favourite from that day:

Thanks for the link. It would only be fair to let people read it all, read the other statement links on this thread, check you tube and other sources, then let them make their own minds up. Why try to direct people to the most questionable piece of the statement, the rest makes very interesting reading and appears factual. If true it paints an awful picture for some. I am waiting for Thaivisa witnesses to confirm they saw the planting of incendiary devices prior to the 19th in that mall. My Gran would refer to you as 'all piss and wind' no substance. My gran knew a 'wrong un'

I see the Thaksin Tag Team Tangenters are back in livery,

trying to distract from the actual discussion..

That's no way to describe Insight, jdinasia and buchholz. Please retract this inflammatory statement at once.

I have a few words to describe them if you are stuck... Taxi

Quite true PhilW. Its not about Thaksin but the same crew on here attached Thaksin to every post to justify, in their eyes, their views. Lets debate the Social issue and leave politics out if. I have asked more than once but they dont want that because their views are invalid without Thaksin (who I depise). <blah blah blah blah>

Yawn.

Is it the army clapping at around 2.30 on this compilation of clips from the 19th May?

Yawn. How derogatory but you still dont want to debate the social issues that are the root cause of red shirt protests. Getting close to the knuckle am I

yes, you are.

It's amazing how all these threads ( and there have been many ) get subverted into " hate Thaksinisms " and so quickly become insulting to anybody expressing an alternative view to the established ( rather small ) clique.

Is the rather small clique the Gof7 (as I call them) Bad news Nations opened its chequebook and there more of them. Without the hate figure Khun Thaksin they would have to address the real issues. Most of them have something in the message at the bottom of their posts relating to their hatred of Thaksin, Normal people would write a message like "the sex was that good even the neighbours lit a cigarette' but which person can be that obsessed with discrediting a person at every opportunity. They've been sussed but dont worry boys just keep picking up your cheques

Quite true PhilW. Its not about Thaksin but the same crew on here attached Thaksin to every post to justify, in their eyes, their views. Lets debate the Social issue and leave politics out if. I have asked more than once but they dont want that because their views are invalid without Thaksin (who I depise). They want all to think its was only the 500 baht a day that made people stay in Bangkok for 2 months. The news they dont want to hear is that the poor of this country will not go away and their core is getting stronger, right or wrong they will rise again with or without Thaksin. if history teaches us anything its that people have been prepared to die for their beliefs. These people are no different. Another mini genocide will not auger to well with the international community

You're replying on a thread titled "Thaksin's Lawyer..." and you're trying to argue it's not about Thaksin? While Thaksin the Clown rambles on about being the saviour of Thailand and Sideshow Bob rambles on about presenting a case full of holes to a court that has no jurisdiction over it, the Krustettes are back on here again singing the same old made up tunes from the little Red songbook.

All threads digress thats how they stay topical. Waiting for the Social Issue thread but then the'Nationous' crew would not be interested in that so the thread woul die. Nobody sings from the red song book, maybe a few of us are true to our unpaid beliefs. Krustettes I like that

Quite true PhilW. Its not about Thaksin but the same crew on here attached Thaksin to every post to justify, in their eyes, their views. Lets debate the Social issue and leave politics out if. I have asked more than once but they dont want that because their views are invalid without Thaksin (who I depise). <blah blah blah blah>

Yawn.

Is it the army clapping at around 2.30 on this compilation of clips from the 19th May?

Yawn. How derogatory but you still dont want to debate the social issues that are the root cause of red shirt protests. Getting close to the knuckle am I

Quite true PhilW. Its not about Thaksin but the same crew on here attached Thaksin to every post to justify, in their eyes, their views. Lets debate the Social issue and leave politics out if. I have asked more than once but they dont want that because their views are invalid without Thaksin (who I depise). <blah blah blah blah>

Yawn.

Is it the army clapping at around 2.30 on this compilation of clips from the 19th May?

Yawn. How derogatory but you still dont want to debate the social issues that are the root cause of red shirt protests. Getting close to the knuckle am I

You got it in your final sentence.

Thank you.

It's not about Thaksin any more.

LOL .. which is why, of course, the title of this thread is .........?

Which is why Thaksin is calling on people to vote PTP to bring him back .....

etc etc

This is ONLY about Thaksin and that is all it ever has been about.

edit

to reflect tt's edit -----

Nope that looks FAR from indiscriminate, it looks targeted. The reds (at one of their areas of control) said they would target journalists and that is what appears to have happened here.

Maybe it could possibly be about the misrepresentations of the Gov't and Army ??

Possibly about people having an interest in the truth ??

The responsibilities of the military for the people ??

Wealth discrepancies.

Double standards

Nepotism and elitism

Whatever.................

Need I go on ?

I think There is an American expression for the obsession with Thaksin ( who I detest BTW ) beginning with A and ending with L.

Personally, I think a lot more than Thaksin is at stake here.

Quite true PhilW. Its not about Thaksin but the same crew on here attached Thaksin to every post to justify, in their eyes, their views. Lets debate the Social issue and leave politics out if. I have asked more than once but they dont want that because their views are invalid without Thaksin (who I depise). They want all to think its was only the 500 baht a day that made people stay in Bangkok for 2 months. The news they dont want to hear is that the poor of this country will not go away and their core is getting stronger, right or wrong they will rise again with or without Thaksin. if history teaches us anything its that people have been prepared to die for their beliefs. These people are no different. Another mini genocide will not auger to well with the international community

You got it in your final sentence.

Thank you.

It's not about Thaksin any more.

LOL .. which is why, of course, the title of this thread is .........?

Which is why Thaksin is calling on people to vote PTP to bring him back .....

etc etc

This is ONLY about Thaksin and that is all it ever has been about.

edit

to reflect tt's edit -----

Nope that looks FAR from indiscriminate, it looks targeted. The reds (at one of their areas of control) said they would target journalists and that is what appears to have happened here.

Your opinion but who was the man in silver helmet searching the chest of the victim. May I suggest a man looking for the bullet to see if it was trapped in the vest. Take away the evidence, a sniper round. If it was a sniper round he would have time to select his target, so why shoot an obvious journalist. The 4rse wipe rag you align to may have reported the reds were going to shoot the journalists, so there fore its a load of &lt;deleted&gt; to cover the tracks of the real killers. I hope the journos family are reading your pathetic reasoning.. sad really

What a waste of time..THAKSIN IS HISTORY...Hes passed his ....SELL BY DATE....

Maybe, but the army are still there and they used live ammo to quell a political protest, not even rubber bullets or tear gas.

Actually, they did use rubber bullets and tear gas. But they weren't much use against grenades and guns.

Exactly --- they started with teargas, then teargas and rubber bullets. The reds escalated by using petrol bombs and grenades. Even after the 10th of April there was no indiscriminate firing by the military. Finally at the end there were warnings given and in areas believed to be held by the armed reds, live fire and a lot of it.

If the reds had truly been "peaceful protestors, not terrorists" as their banner proclaimed ... they would not have been using weapons and the government would not have allowed the army to use harsher measures to quell the insurrection. Remember --- the reds were clearly calling for violence and rioting and destruction from the stage for a LONG time before the reds started with the petrol bombs etc.

"peaceful protestors not terrorists" certainly is not a description that fits the reds.

Exactly --- they started with teargas, then teargas and rubber bullets. The reds escalated by using petrol bombs and grenades. Even after the 10th of April there was no indiscriminate firing by the military. Finally at the end there were warnings given and in areas believed to be held by the armed reds, live fire and a lot of it.

If the reds had truly been "peaceful protestors, not terrorists" as their banner proclaimed ... they would not have been using weapons and the government would not have allowed the army to use harsher measures to quell the insurrection. Remember --- the reds were clearly calling for violence and rioting and destruction from the stage for a LONG time before the reds started with the petrol bombs etc.

"peaceful protestors not terrorists" certainly is not a description that fits the reds.

Bradley Cox, a Bangkok-based documentary filmmaker, said that earlier on the morning of May 19, troops fired sporadically from behind a barricade into areas 200 meters away that were controlled by red-shirted protesters for the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, or UDD. Cox, interviewed for a CPJ special report, said both he and Polenghi had taken footage of a protester shot in the leg around 10:45 a.m.

About 15 minutes later, Cox said, sensing a lull in the shooting, he moved away from a barricade controlled by the UDD and into a nearly empty road to investigate a commotion among protesters approximately 30 to 40 meters away. Cox said Polenghi followed a few steps behind. While running down the road, Cox felt a sudden, sharp pain in the side of his leg. It turned out that a bullet had grazed his knee, causing minor injury. When he turned to look back in the direction of the troops, he saw Polenghi sprawled on the ground about two or three meters behind him. Polenghi was wearing a blue helmet with the word "Press" written across the front and back, and a green armband indicating that he was a working journalist.

"My feeling at the time was that we were shot at the exact same time, perhaps even with the same bullet," said Cox, adding that he didn't hear the gunshot or shots that hit him or Polenghi. "I don't know who shot me or Fabio, but if the military was trying to shoot red shirts, there was no one around us. ... Soldiers were firing at anything or anybody."

Video footage Cox subsequently took of journalists and protesters who carried Polenghi's body out of the road and onto a motorcycle bound for a nearby local hospital appeared to show a bullet had entered Polenghi's body under his left armpit and exited through his side. He was declared dead on arrival at a local hospital, according to news reports. Authorities did not report any bullet being recovered.

Polenghi's family expressed concerns about the government's opaque investigation into the death. His sister, Elisabetta Polenghi, noted that many of his belongings, including his camera and telephone, were missing. She and a group of Polenghi's colleagues pieced together video clips--some received from journalists who were in Polenghi's vicinity, others downloaded from unknown sources on the Internet--to develop a timeline of movements before and after the shooting. There was no known footage of the shooting itself. One video clip showed that an unidentified man wearing a silver helmet was the first to reach Polenghi after he was shot. The brief footage showed him feeling around Polenghi's chest and briefly jostling with his camera, while another unidentified man wearing a yellow helmet knelt and took a photograph.

Government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn did not respond to questions from CPJ on the Polenghi shooting, including the assertion that soldiers had been firing indiscriminately.

That looks very indiscriminate to me. Would you believe a Thai government spokesman before a foreign journalist?

so what?

the yellows did not orchestrate bombings, employ mercenaries and kill innocent people

the reds deserve exactly what they are getting and more

they should man up, stand tall and stop whinging about it

red bitches.......

Its so sad you believe that. Who fired the grenades into the yellow shirts from the overpass(who as all the grenades). Who were the men with guns, actually shooting at motor bike taxi drivers from the back of a pick up near Don Muang. Why did the army not move the yellows when the country was crippled at Survanabhumi Airport. Its not hard, work it out. I put your poor recollection of the facts down to selective memory loss. Stop reading the Thai Media, known worldwide as just a government propoganda tool. Maybe you can help me because my memory is also bad, when it was allegded that some grenades were launched into the crowds, from the red encampment, did the revered forensic lady (Porntip?) do a full on scene investigation. Why have we never heard her report. Maybe its in the interest of 'National Security' . Why is it not possible to tell from which direction the bullet came from that killed Seh Daeng, simply it will point the finger at the military and its black hand. Who fired into the Press hotel, to scare them, who shot all those journalists - some in the back while running for cover. Why have no foreign media been asked to participate in the enquiry into the shootings, maybe because they will tell what they saw and that will only implicated the real villans in this peace.

Forget Takky just realise the inequalities of this nation. They are so bad people run at bullets to defend their beliefs. Its easy for someone like you to 'type the tripe' . Nobody knows the full picture in Thailand, just some know more than others

Obviously the TAT has not been in touch with any embassies who are advising 'caution'. More deliberate misinformation from TAT.

I'm aware of the various Embassy warnings issued for the Red Shirt rally on January 23.

http://www.thaivisa....age__hl__warden

Red-Shirt Rally Alert For Bangkok

But have there been Embassy warnings issued for the yellow shirt rallies?

You may want to read the article that you refer too, again.

It is balanced, and does not take sides - it mentions both colours.

Unlike your post.

Ah, so it is.

Thanks for pointing that out, my bad.

And also thanks for the dig as I wasn't aware asking a simple question was unbalanced.

.

He may be on a payroll to be biased

No, but my strong impression over the years has been that PAD has a smaller hard core base of supporters than the red shirts.

the more the money, the more the support...

Ah, I see. So you mean PAD only had more support in 2008 because of the money provided by the amaat? Thailand's leading corporations and banks etc? Yep, you're probably right. The die-hard PADs probably feel betrayed by these fair weather friends.

It's always nice to have an opinion, doesn't need facts just imagination

I think it maybe true who sponsored the yellows but we will never know who paid for that 6 month debacle because nobody in government as the nuts or the will to carry out the same investigation they did on the red money trail. One things for sure they did not feed themselves for 6 months. Only the most powerful people can stop a government investigating how it spends its money. Its more than an opinion, think about who lit the funeral bonfire

Check out this timetable for Nakon Chai Air Buses between Khon Kaen and Bangkok

I really wish all these upright Bangkok farangs would get off their bar stools put their drinks and little ladies down and take a trip and see the real Thailand. Not the lala land Of endless fun and girls they live in but see the real hardship of the poor.

... end removed (and size/font setting as well)

Why start with an insult? Many foreigners posting here live and work in Thailand, not even necessarily in Bangkok. Lots of oversea posters. All with an opinion like you, but mostly more politely formulated.

Look in the mirror, count to ten and try a to-the-point post without starting with an insult.

Why dont you concentrate of the main jist of the post. What is said is undeniably correct. A change is gonna come

PS. there is nothing wrong with a little chicklet on a bar stool

Its not the time spent at school, its what you do when you are there... the quality of teaching, facilities etc and all of that givesThais no chance to excel. Put a Thai child in an average western school and the chance are that he will be far better educated than if you left the same child in a village school in Thailand. Papers from the highest educational establishments here carry little weight outside of Thailand.

Judging by the scorn and vitriol constantly directed at the Reds by many expats I can only assume that they enjoy priviledged positions amongst the Bangkok elite.

I feel really sorry for the poor sod who could not get into his luxury apartment because the road was blocked. To be deprived of his aircon, hot water, flush toilet, and satellite TV is criminal behaviour by these dastardly miscreants. Lock them up, throw the key away, better yet call in the army to exterminate them.

Please do us a favor and show us any quotes coming from this red demonstration that indicates they are protesting for more opportunity for the poor in this country. Back in April they wanted an immediate disbandment of the current government and stated clearly that NOTHING that there was nothing Abhsist could do to change this position They also refused the offer to hold elections early at the end of last year Now they are gathering for the release of jailed leaders who led them to a slaughter and/or to remember the outcome of their violent and lawless siege of BKK back in April.

Lets not pretend they want anything else then what they clearly state and what their actions clearly show

Please speak up for all the inequality but do yourself a favor and don't pretend these reds speaks for the betterment of Thailand Nor should you hate those who have worked hard to make a good life for themselves or have resentment for this who have been lucky in terms of their wealth.

Very well put, Nisa. The poor farmers as well as the urban poor have a legitimate cause, and I fully support that cause. What I do not support is a counter-elite group of wealthy businessmen and politicians who have hoodwinked those people into believing that they represent anything that will elevate their freedom or quality of life. Can anyone cite even one specific example that the Thaksinistas have provided regarding policies or programmes that would do anything for the people they supposedly represent? All I ever heard from those weeks on Red Stage was vitriol and foul language. I truly feel sorry for those poor people who were duped and have suffered as a result.

I would also suggest that any poster here who defends the Thaksinista/red shirt mob has been equally hoodwinked, but perhaps even more pathetically as they should have the education and means to see through it - much more so than a poor Isaan farming family who had to work hard to feed a family and could not afford the luxury of finishing school, let alone complete their studies at Chiang Mai's elite Montfort College.

maybe this is the reason the poor are so easily led

Recently released data from Thailand show clearly the relationship between poverty and education. According to the National Economic and Social Development Board, of the total number of poor people in 2002, 94.7 per cent had received only primary education or less. A further 2.8 per cent had lower secondary education, 1.7 per cent had upper secondary, 0.48 per cent had vocational qualifications and 0.31 per cent had graduated from universities. Thailandกฏs poor are overwhelmingly uneducated. They also tend to be rural and living in large families.

And who has allowed the education system to remain this way for decades..only those that will benefit from people being too thick to question what they do... This is maybe one of the things they believe they are fighting to change

Judging by the scorn and vitriol constantly directed at the Reds by many expats I can only assume that they enjoy priviledged positions amongst the Bangkok elite.

I feel really sorry for the poor sod who could not get into his luxury apartment because the road was blocked. To be deprived of his aircon, hot water, flush toilet, and satellite TV is criminal behaviour by these dastardly miscreants. Lock them up, throw the key away, better yet call in the army to exterminate them.

And what about the poor sods trying to earn a living? They are the ones that are hurt most.

and u give a rats arse about mainly isaan people, working in Bangkok, losing a crust.

Here we go again.

This leave all of us wondering what is the aim of all these rallies? and mostly, why the heck is the gov't doing nothing.

Now we've go both side doing monthly rallies in the heart of Bangkok, wrecking the already fatally bad economy for business in the area.

Totally FUBARed.

I would guess it is to give information and make speeches since their radio. tv stations and websites are still closed by government.

Thumbs up Random.. That made me chuckle. A shining light in that bile known as 'nationous'

The question is this. Why did the army move in against protestors who shut a shopping district but the rest of the city functioned and they didnt move in against an airport sitin(plus 5 months at GH) that abosolutely crippled this country and cost billions of dollars. Secondly if Thaksin funded the reds debacle, who funded the near six month yellow shirt protests.

Sounds like equal-justice to me.