CheGuava

6 hours ago, HLover said:

Is there really a 'good' one?

Yes of course.   The Ter Karaoke ones are fun and reasonably priced.  (Many branches all over town)

1 hour ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

I agree with you that it is a weak attempt, but I think that it might be just another of those saving-face routines. At least I am hoping that it is the hidden agenda. Otherwise, I do agree that it is very weak.

 

But, I feel that we have to treat any advance (however small) as positive. We should really encourage this and support this.

A couple hundred people would be a really good turnout.   I'm inclined to agree with you.. the actual petition doesn't make much sense: it's not provincial or municipal authorities who define environmental standards and even if they did the WHO target is not achievable in much of the world and especially not in Northern Thailand where it doesn't rain half the year.  

They have a tendency to present WHO targets as some 'international standard that should obviously be followed', but think for a moment that 92% of the world is over this target, and if it was actually used as a limit for making policy decisions (canceling events, handing out masks, telling people to stay indoors) then more than half the days everywhere in Thailand would trigger alerts which just isn't feasible.  The petition is actually for a standard that would be MORE strict even than the EU, UK, and US standards..  myeah.. that seems both unlikely and not actually useful to have a limit that is exceeded most days.

The WHO realizes this which is why they have interim targets, and those would likely be achievable with incredible, dedicated effort.  The new Thai PM2.5 standard is along those lines: every day in March goes over the limit, but it's worth fighting for.

So yeah, it'd be nicer if the petition was actually about something that provincial authorities can actually do something about  (lengthening a burning ban and enforcing it a lot more strictly) but.. in the end I don't think it actually matters.. it's an opportunity for people to make their voices heard and walk around with masks, even when the air may not really be all that bad Friday at 5pm.  

On 3/26/2018 at 11:05 AM, XGM said:

As far as I recall it wasn't any authorities, some academics, friends / neighbors or something of that kind.

Also good.   That really needs supporting because the effects of course haven't been great; yes the air in Chiang Rai is relatively better, but you need measurements to tell the difference; it's not like their reward was pristine air..  (As of course all the smog drifts in from all around.)

They could even point some fingers at their dirty old auntie next door: Chiang Mai. 

15 hours ago, XGM said:

Keep sending, and they might eventually... mention you to their friends as a comical episode.

The post you were replying too seems to be deleted which makes the discussion more difficult.  Which authorities was he contacting and in what way?

1 hour ago, canopy said:

You just don't get it yet. Excellent solutions are abundant, but no one wants them. You need to understand the mindset you are dealing with here. These people are not like you. The farmers don't want any part of your ideas and solutions even if there are shining models of success and praise elsewhere in the world. It's their land, they do as they please. They burn because they like to and could care less if that poses health concerns to you or anyone else. 

And yet, somehow the farmers in Chiang Rai province didn't burn in February and March (extremely few exceptions).   I'm highly interested to find out how that was achieved.

This is the fire data for March (1-24), it is astonishing.

Region, with Chiang Rai encircled: 

And zoomed in (showing a big region  on a firemap gives a slightly wrong impression because each dot covers a big area.)  you can see it almost goes exactly around the provincial border..  What is their secret??

And yes, this is new.  And no there aren't any freak rain/weather conditions going on this year in Chiang Rai. 

Compare with 2016 versus this year:

Please note:  Chiang Mai has a bigger area than Chiang Rai, but areas of the same size have been used in the graph. (Although the Chiang Mai area has a lot more mountains and forests which is harder to police than flat farmland.) 

Either way you can see that the reduction in Chiang Rai is dramatic, compared to a much more modest reduction in Chiang Mai when comparing this year with two years ago.

16 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The last one I went to was very disappointing, but willing to try again at a different place.

The biggest one is at the Chiang Mai Cultural Center.  Costs a lot at 800 Baht because they need to fit in 300 Baht commission for any agent or red bus driver who shows up.  It's touristy but not a bad experience overall.

Or for a smaller one, I think Huan Khachao is still running too.  Just pay for the food.  https://goo.gl/maps/9S24D3iyyHA2 

(so.. looking at Google Streetview I'm not actually sure it's still running, unless it's now indoors in that new building there.  I also cannot find it on TripAdvisor so that must mean it doesn't exist. :) )

Have you been to Finland?   I'd leave too.

2 hours ago, canopy said:

Those statistics are a fantastic find to now be able to see the actual trends. What is astonishing is how few "good air" months there are if using the US standard. I would have thought for sure the wet season months would all be green. But in fact 11 or even all 12 months of a year can average sub-standard air.

Yes; although if it's any consolation, very few places in the world are consistently in the green on the US AQI scale which is extremely strict in the low range and (IMHO) not granular enough once you hit the red zone.

To be in the green the PM2.5 concentration needs to be at 12 ug/m3 or below.   That rarely happens for a whole month anywhere in Asia, including the whole of Thailand.  Personal opinion: I don't care if it's 10 ug/m3 or 15 ug/m3, both are excellent. Yet one will get green, the other yellow.  And frankly that's typical in lots of places including Europe, it's often on the border between green and yellow: 

HOWEVER, the US scale is not linear, so the red zone just goes on and on and on through absolutely horrible levels of smog. It starts at about 55 ug/m3, but even at almost TRIPLE that level at 149 ug/m3 it's STILL the same color indication.  And believe me you notice the difference between 55 and 149 yet that whole range in PM2.5 concentration is crammed in between 150 and 200 on the AQI scale. 

So I'm not the biggest fan of the US EPA index, but as so many sites and apps use it I guess it's fine as a de-facto standard. 

But I do recommend to not fret over a difference of 10 ug/m3 versus 17 and just be happy because by Asian standards that's as good as it gets, even on a beach.

9 hours ago, inThailand said:

I find it comical many CM expats have taken to wearing masks.

 

Why would anyone stay in a place where you can't safely breathe the air?

I find it comical that many people in Canada have taken to wearing hats, gloves and thick coats.

Why would anyone stay in a place where you can't safely set foot out the door?

1 hour ago, sqwakvfr said:

Maybe I'm going a little nutty but the air in BKK feels better than Chiang Mai.  I landed at BKK a few hours ago and the sky looks almost blue.  Flying out of CNX there was this thick layer of smog hovering over the city.  

Oh, not doubt about it.  The air anywhere South from Northern Thailand is MUCH better during this time of the year.  Say from Nakhon Sawan onwards to the South.

On 3/16/2018 at 10:14 AM, mrmillersr said:

Fifty one day burning ban starting 1 March my a$$.  The PM 2.5 pollution levels for March this year are much higher than there were this time last year.  Not only that, but elevated levels are starting earlier than normal and it's just now a matter of seeing if it also continues longer. 

 

Anyone thinking you only have to deal with this a couple of months out of the year is delusional.  If you're looking for a healthy place to live,  forget Chiang Mai.  This problem is just going to get worse before it gets better, which will likely be never.  Unless for some reason you're permanently anchored here get out, as this is the only real solution to the problem.

Yes, last year was a relatively good year.  This year looks very similar to the years before that. It also didn't start earlier compared to those years. As for how long it will continue will be interesting to see; normally we're out of the worst by mid April when levels return to what you see in the first half of February.  And then May is typically the same as any other month, similar levels to January, June, November and December. 

And yes, March is a great time for a holiday.

BTW it doesn't look like it'll get worse before it'll get better.  It looks like excruciatingly slow improvement. Even with this year being not very good, it's nowhere near 2015 so far.

3 hours ago, Mahseer said:

Your chance will come.......middle of May at the earliest though. Not good.

Below 100 is into the yellow.  Should happen a couple times before that, especially in the second half of April.  (I take it that it doesn't need to be a daily average, just a couple hours..)

Heck, just last Friday afternoon/evening (9-10 March) was into the yellow; it does happen sometimes.

For May the average for the whole month is down to yellow.

20 hours ago, Sparkles said:

Well looking at the photos from last year, at this particular location, you would hardly  be able to breathe.The owners themselves come to CM

I see.  Yes, I guess if you're right next to the areas where field burning and forest fires happen then that would be quite nasty. 

I wish they'd get the police and army in and shoot everyone who burns anything in March.

2 hours ago, LolaS said:

https://app.ubidots.com/ubi/public/getdashboard/page/gAfjzNIxwBZ0AsYwALovqce9KtA#/

 

real time tracking of pollution in CMU

Values look really low, I think something is off with that one.  The average for the day shows around 25 ug/m3, that's mid-yellow on the US EPA AQI scale, around 80 US AQI.   All other stations today show about 108-147 US AQI. 

I hate governments.

On 2/21/2018 at 4:15 PM, THAIJAMES said:

But according to the link the PM2.5 concentration needs to be 10 ug/m3 for the air quality to be good.  compared to the WHO which recommends under 25 ug/m3.

 

Any thoughts?

That is the WHO goal yes. It's very often exceeded, anywhere in the world even in temperate marine climates.   The US EPA AQI index is already a lot more realistic.   However, indoors and with an air purifier running it seems real easy to get below 25 ug/m3 so why not.  Like you said, let's see how easy we get there during the worst of it.  

BTW,I also don't think you should be sealing the room to the point that oxygen levels become problematic. :)  Whatever air gets in will get filtered, that's what the air purifier is for. 

9 hours ago, TonyClifton said:

Now to the poster who said he had one of these using the same filter for 2 years, they only rate the filter for 4000 hours or 6 months of use.

Good; that'll last a couple years then if you run it 2 months from mid Feb to mid April.   Plus I'm not home all the time. 

On 2/20/2018 at 7:28 PM, THAIJAMES said:

I agree you don't need a detector and your nose and eyes will tell you anything you need to know.

Seriously?   Unless there's a fire right next to my house I completely don't smell anything even mid March, and definitely don't have any symptoms.  So without a PM2.5 counter I really wouldn't know. 

42 minutes ago, sfokevin said:

I would recommend that one buy the Filtrete and place a bit of it on the of your hatari intake ( between the filter and the outer mesh )to catch the big things - replace it weekly 

Why, actually?   If that particle counter tells you that running the air purifier as designed quickly gets the air to under 10ug/m3 then why bother?   And replacing it weekly.. again, why?    It'll probably keep the outer mesh cleaner if you put it on the outside of it, making for less work washing it, but other than that?

I do use the 3M stuff on air conditioners because why not, but an air purifier is pretty magic. 

On 2/24/2018 at 5:21 PM, Sparkles said:

Having said that on leaving the owners said that they will close the resort at the end of this month for as long as it takes the expected smoke  haze to clear which apparently drifts annually across from Burma .They felt in not fair to expose their customers to it.

Yeah, I did that for a while, basically recommending visitors to not visit Chiang Mai in Match but I stopped doing it after recognizing that very few tourists even notice it, and go so far as to comment on the excellent sunny and dry weather.   (And recent years have been a little better than the old days anyway)

I believe most tourists would prefer March over September for example, which has excellent air by any standard, but a lot of rain..

4 hours ago, canopy said:

 

The air in Chiang Rai for the past 4 months has been worse than international standards, often twice as bad or more. It is likely to remain like this or worse for months to come. And if this is a dry year like authorities predict, we can expect times of unhealthy air even during the rainy season. It is surprising to hear someone describe the situation as remarkably good despite the sunset or sunrise both being completely blotted out by pollution. A  lot of people are suffering and as we know the worst is yet to come.

Sorry; I meant, compared to previous years, or compared to Chiang Mai.   Not compared to Northern Europe. 

I just checked on previous years and it turns out that I wasn't correct; also in previous years the Chiang Rai air quality was about the same as this year for January and February. The main scorcher comes in March usually.  (I did find that Mae Hong Son was better than previous years although it looks like they moved their measuring station so not sure if that's a valid comparison.)

So yes it will get a LOT worse the coming weeks.  

5 hours ago, canopy said:

I can only think of one reason Thailand is dragging its feet this many years and still not installing equipment that measures PM 2.5. It's because it will reveal the truth of how bad the air actually is. So for those who want the real story on air quality, here it is from aqicn.org:

 

 

 

I don't think that's true, or fair.  Thailand has measured PM2.5 for many areas including Chiang Mai since 2012 and the records are publicly available.  And Aqicn.org happily makes use of that same data.

They are still in the process of upgrading measuring stations as well as adding new ones, but keep in mind that this isn't a 2000 Baht Lazada-special we're talking about.  It's stations like these, which cost money: 

(I guess it's a matter of opinion too though of course.. for the price of one submarine they could probably have those stations just about everywhere. :) )  

2 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

Ditto for Mae Sai which shows healthy levels of the 10 pm: http://aqicn.org/city/thailand/chiangrai/maesai-health-office/

 

Extrapolating from the 2.5 pm figures of other cities, the 2.5 figures should show an unhealthy or orange flag there. In other words, in as much as I like this website, it paints a crooked image of what is really happening. I wish it had a filter (pm 10 and pm 2.5). Should I suggest it?

Yes.   Either a filter, or do a calculated PM2.5 based on the PM10 value, using the PM2.5 : PM10 ratio of nearby stations that measure both.  And then just indicate that it's a derived value.

23 hours ago, wgdanson said:

Now they will really have to upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 10.

Heh.  I'm happy if they upgrade from typewriters and Windows XP.

3 hours ago, Maestro said:

Actually, it says "Unhealthy". Post a screenshot again when the AQI is over 300 so that we may see shat is says then.

Yes, although the AQI advisory is based on the daily average.  Many apps will show near-real time readings, so you also get very high peaks.  (As well as much lower values occasionally, but nobody posts those. )

Yes, Bangkok is worse than Chiang Mai currently.

And Chiang Mai air will improve considerably (averages out of the red) by mid-April, about 2 months from now.

In between that time there will be some bad spells, some okay-ish spells, and some VERY bad spells.

18 hours ago, Ned said:

The official No Burning season is supposed to start on Feb 20........but I've also heard March 1. Burners are hurrying to get the job done before then.....or so the story goes. Lookiing forward  to Feb20 to see if anything changes. Any optimists out there in Chiangmailand?

 

I think you mean burning ban?  It starts 1 March this year. 

And a burning ban does look like it has positive effects. They've only had it for the last two years though, and all kinds of things have an impact so it's hard to say for sure.  (Correlation does not imply causation) 

9 hours ago, mat999 said:

If you want your voice to be heard it might be most effective to go for public awareness and shaming with a smear campaign against Chiang Mai tourism.

This seems to assume that it's an easily fixable problem, but authorities are just unwilling to do it.   Or that it's a recent issue, and Thailand can easily backtrack to greener days, if only someone made the call.

It's not that easy.   And progress is being made.  Pollution is down compared to decades ago, public awareness is increasing and government is bringing newer air quality monitoring stations online with a PM2.5 capability, as well as defining a new and much tighter air quality standard based on the PM2.5 level.

At the same time, location, climate and weather patterns have a big impact. 

Public shaming and a smear campaign just makes you look foolish, to very little effect.

And remember what part of the world you moved to.  You can't just jump up and down and scream for Canadian air, and authorities will flip a switch and give it to you.

There are definitely things you can do, but a smear campaign isn't it.  Or at least realize that it's not Chiang Mai, but also the entire North, big parts of the North East, Myanmar, Laos, China, Vietnam, etc, etc. 

It's almost ludicrous how massive it is.   

A massive fodder factory, a termite mound of people running from table to trough.    

It's worth seeing more than actually eating there. 

On 2/6/2018 at 8:19 PM, EricTh said:

 

I think Buriram is part of Isaan people... I maybe wrong though.

 

It's in the Isaan region.  The Isaan region has Lao speaking people and Khmer speaking people. (And some others, probably)

And still people wonder why some folks (like me) want to avoid checkpoints..