TerraplaneGuy

4 minutes ago, Martyp said:

I will just have to go to CW later in the year and have a discussion about what they will accept at that time. You seem to presenting a situation where no one can get an extension unless they are there at 4:30pm on the day it expires. Obviously that is not the case for many people who have obtained extension for the last couple of months. 

Yes, that is exactly what I've been told repeatedly by Immigration escalating up several levels of seniority.  Aetna was told the same thing when they inquired.  I agree it makes no sense and I'd like to hear from anyone with a Non-OA who has recently extended at CW about their experience.  Could it be that not many people have these visas anymore?

1 minute ago, Martyp said:

My Pacific Cross insurance begins January 1st. I originally got my PC insurance before the insurance requirement. If I understand the logic of what is happening to you then I think I will be OK in November if I can get my insurance renewed early enough before November 19th when my extension of stay expires. When I apply I will have an insurance certificate for this year in the database. I will have a certificate for next year, starting January 1, but not yet uploaded to the database. I may have to move my insurance back to December 1 if renewing early becomes a problem. In any case do you see this timing as a possible solution to your situation?

I don't.   The problem is that when you go to extend, say on November 2, your new certificate, for the upcoming year, will not be uploaded.  They will not accept it as proof of coverage.  So they will say come back when it is uploaded.  Changing your policy to December 1 won't change that. 

OP UPDATE:  I've had a lot of discussion with Aetna and they've talked to Immigration about my problem.   Aetna offered to increase my coverage to the required B40,000 OPD for the stub period before my next extension (between now and February 12) so that I can go in advance and extend.  But Immigration said it won't work because they will not accept even a signed certificate from Aetna confirming that.  They will only accept an uploaded certificate as proof, and since Aetna had to upload the certificate for my upcoming extension year already, and the system only takes one per customer, there is no way to upload another.  In other words, Immigration is saying that if I want to apply in advance (as per usual) I have to prove current coverage as well as coverage for the upcoming year, but that is impossible because the system can't show both!  So Immigration is sticking to their position that the only day I can apply is my expiry day, February 12.  And they are sticking to the time requirement, which means I can't apply before 4:30 PM (the time of my policy, and everyone's) when Chaeng Wattana closes.  As a special accommodation, they say they are prepared to have the staff work a few minutes late to get my extension done.  However, I will have to come back another day for my re-entry permit because that office will be closed by the time I have my extension.  I have Aetna's legal team working on the possibility of moving the time of my policy to an earlier time (although the law normally requires 4:30 pm).  I'm not optimistic on that.  Meanwhile what I'm wondering is:

1. Will this happen again next year?  If they continue with these rules, even though I will have proper coverage for the then-current year, when I go to apply again for an extension it seems I will run into the same problem:  Aetna will have to upload my new certificate for the upcoming extension year and the previous one will be deleted.  That will prevent me from applying in advance and force me to apply only on my expiry date at 4:30 PM.  That is unless Immigration is smart enough to devise a system of recording or preserving previous year's certificates.  Or doing the rational thing and relying on the fact that if you've already got an extension you met the requirements at that time.  But they're not doing that now so I'm not holding my breath for next year.  And if they don't change their rules, how can I expect them to make a special accommodation for me year after year?  Obviously they won't, so they'll force me to overstay and apply late, breaking the law.

2. Why do I seem to be one of only a very few people having this problem?  Are there not many holders of Non-Imm. O-A visas getting extensions?  If there are, why are you all not having this problem of being unable to apply in advance for want of proof of current insurance coverage?  I'd appreciate any input.

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

But I didn't mention Malaysia as a) It's a lot more expensive than the Thai options & b) It comes with a requirement for Health Insurance (though I believe they will, on a case-by-case basis, wave the requirement & allow you to deposit a bond if none of the insurers will insure you).

 

 

More expensive in that you have to keep more money in a local account than in Thailand?Or ...?

2 hours ago, Alotoftravel said:

I have Pacific cross medical policy for my o a extension which also starts at 4:30 PM.

 

I wonder if I will encounter the Same problem here in chiang mai immigration; must have insurance Started prior to the expiry of my visa When i renew, I plan to go 45 days to apply before visa expiry? 

 

I did ask Pacific cross if I should get insurance for “ additional time” before my visa expiry , they Can but there will be no certificate for the extra time which they cannot guarantee that immigration will accept. 

 

Cannot seem to do the right thing nor know when or what is the right thing To do

 

I discussed this with Aetna and as you say they cannot give a certificate for the stub period coverage because the system only allows them to upload one certificate per customer to Immigration and of course we need the certificate for the extension coverage.   Yet Immigration told me they would allow me to get my extension in advance if I could prove I have coverage in the stub period.  The question is how could I prove that without a certificate?  I didn’t get into that with them but I suspect if you brought your stub period policy and a letter from the insurer (signed original) confirming coverage they might accept that.  If not they are really creating an impossible situation, demanding proof that cannot be given.  I’ve asked Aetna to explore this further and I’ll post what I hear. 

6 minutes ago, rhodie said:

Use an agent. That is what they want us to do. ???? 

20 minutes ago, Martyp said:

I wish the same. Even if different offices have different requirements a clear up-to-date website would work wonders. It doesn't even have to be an Immigration website. It could be a 3rd party website that has close contacts with a particular Immigration office. A good project for some enterprising Thai web developers. 

In my view it would have to be by the Immigration Bureau itself because any daylight between them and a third party would give them the excuse to depart from what is posted.  It has to be official.  What I think is needed is a concerted effort by expats to pressure Immigration, using formal letters but also newspaper and FB publicity, to do the right thing. 

Back to the main point here, it is clear that Immigration imposes irrational requirements that are outside the law.  What I wish is that at least they would publicize those requirements so we don’t have to go through the agonizing ritual of guessing each year and getting rejected.   Why can’t they simply post on the website a clear list of documents for each visa class so, absurd or not, we will know what to obtain and bring?  I’d like to see an expat movement pressing for that.  

10 minutes ago, Vascoda said:

Are not all policies when for e.g. it says 12th Feb it means it starts when 12th Feb starts. That is 00:00 hour of 12 the february. Never heard of  a policy starting at 4:30PM. Does it mean if you have an emergency before 4:30PM, e..g 10Am you cant go to the hospital and have to wait till 4:30PM?

See my earlier post.  Aetna says by law all insurance policies of any kind in Thailand start and end at 4:30 pm.   Others confirm that.  So yes I expect you would not be covered prior to that time on the first day.  

54 minutes ago, rwill said:

...

 

(I just extended in Ratchaburi yesterday.  I had my insurance date the same as the extension date.  Worked fine there.)

Did you go in on the extension date or in advance?  And if in advance, did you already have insurance at the required levels?  

7 minutes ago, Caldera said:

...

 

Personally, I think changing to a Non-O visa - while tempting - will lead to a very short-lived victory for those who do it. Now that Thai immigration and insurance companies have created that nice little earner, does anyone really believe that they won't maximize the number of "customers" (victims) in the very near future? I bet it's just around the corner.

That's my concern and why I've held off on changing.  

2 hours ago, EricTh said:

 

...

 

Is it possible for the insurance company to add a few days backwards ? or must the insurance policy be exactly one year, no less and no more?

 

I doubt they can do that, but I'm going to ask Aetna if they can do  something similar (and along the lines of TallGuyJohninBK's thought):  increase the OPD coverage on the remainder of my existing policy so I can show Immigration that I'm already covered at the required level.  Since it's only 20 days (and only upping coverage from 35K to 40K) they shouldn't charge much for that.

1 hour ago, Dumbastheycome said:

System  gone  mad ! How in any sense of  logic, rationale or simple common sense expect people to have existing  insurance on an extension which pre dates an application for  renewal when on the existing extension it was  not a mandatory  requirement?

Any further  continuation of permission to stay takes  effect (if  approved) on the  date  following the expiry of the last extension, not from the date preceding application.

 

I said the same thing at least 10 times to the frontline officer and the Supervisor.  They both replied every time with the mantra “you don’t have insurance NOW.”   As if I had overlooked that obvious defect in my analysis.   

11 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The extension would still be for one year but would start on the day you apply for the extension.  ...

 

I don't think that would work because my insurance would cover me from 11 Feb 2020 - 11 Feb 2021 but my extension would be from 12 Feb 2020 (the first day I could apply given my policy starts 11 Feb at 4:30 PM) expiring 12 Feb 2021, with the result that the last day of my extension would not be covered by my policy.  Aetna obviously thought this too which is why they suggested requesting an extension of 364 days which would begin on 12 Feb 2020 (covered) and end on 11 Feb 2021 (still covered).  I just wonder if the CW officers will do that for me.  

4 hours ago, OJAS said:

Not terrified but more likely a bunch of sadists ...

 

 

In fairness and to make the story even more complex, I should add that the Supervisor who jerked me around for over 4 hours in the end seemed to take pity on me (I may have been in tears at that point, can't remember exactly but I know I'd eaten my now stale-dated bank letter and bank book copies) and made this offer:  If I just stick with my existing Aetna certificate and return to CW on 12 Feb (my expiry date) at around 4:00 PM, and ask for her, she would make sure my extension gets registered that day (presumably around 4:31 PM as everybody is leaving).  I pointed out that, magnanimous as that was, it would mean that I would not get my re-entry visa because for sure those people would not wait around for me to get the copy of the extension, etc.  She acknowledge this and suggested I get one in the airport on the way out whenever I travel next.  I told her I am often too rushed at the airport to consider such a thing and then she suggested I just come back to CW another time to get the permit.  I guess to her going to CW every day is just what life is about - after all, she does it.  But this may in fact be the way the story ends for me since Aetna's various workarounds all seem uncertain.

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

So I'm trying to understand the practical impact of this... for folks with O-A visa extensions of stay requiring insurance (and they DO require insurance, BTW...)

 

AFAIK, I've heard that some of the Thai insurers are willing to write policies for that month or weeks stub period, at a prorated premium amount, and then have the full year follow-on policy that matches one's extension period...

 

And if someone was able to do that with their Thai insurer on the front end for the first time, then I think they'd be OK for future cycles, as their annual insurance period would match their annual extension period... and they could apply to Immigration early because they'd already have valid insurance in force each successive year.

 

I do think that would work.  The Supervisor said if I could prove that I NOW have the requisite insurance levels as well as the certificate stating that on 12 Feb (my extension date) my new policy will kick in with the same levels, she would have gone ahead as usual and issued me my extension in advance.  That's why I said in my first post that they in effect are requiring two certificates.  Unfortunately Aetna didn't anticipate this problem when they adjusted my policy to match my extension dates so didn't boost coverage on the stub period and didn't of course give me a certificate for it.  And I had no idea at all that I'd find myself in the Matrix.

32 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Is there a chance that immigration would then object that you do not have a policy for the whole period of your extension (you would not be covered from (09:00-23:59 on the last day)? If they want to be stupid, are there any limits?

I wondered the same since it's hard to see why they would be so worried that the first minute is not covered, if they apparently don't care about the last.  I thought of raising it with the Supervisor but given the way she kept arguing in circles and ignoring the plain logic of my position made me conclude it would be a waste of time.  So to answer your question, no there are none.

7 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

OP, the tm30 won't be an issue at CW.

Yes take along the screenshot, most likely not even a mention of it.

You mention non O-A. Assume you have your insurance in order.

Thanks DrJack, yes I have the insurance certificate.  Every year something new for us.  They're so thoughtful to keep it interesting ????

I'm heading to Chaeng Wattana next week for my annual extension of stay (Non-immigrant OA).  Any recent updates on what they require these days regarding form TM30?  I returned to Thailand in October last year and filed the TM30 online successfully.  Have a printed screenshot.  Will I need anything else?

Thanks.