limbos

To loeilad I am confused with your post.u state they should not have used vinegar? Then u say we're there vinegar stations? So what is the correct treatment

Vinegar is the correct treatment at the scene of the incident, after that the victim should be transported to a hospital asap for further treatment and painkillers.

Lifeguards determined years ago the box jellyfish cycle and it looks like it pertains to Thailand as this month the dates at 6-7-8 - Google hawaii jellyfish calendar

sadly not in Thailand. there has been research but the life cycle and seasons ae not confirmed. The other thing is they may be a different species or subspecies, so you can't just apply the Aussie or Hawaiian behaviours and cycles.

It's not a job for lifeguards, it's a job for scientists/marine biologists.

The box jelly fish in the Gulf of Thailand may indeed be a different species, a species not very well researched yet.

It seems there's a lot of misinformation floating around in this thread. Unfortunately I was involved in a box jelly fish incident on Chaweng Beach some 13 years ago, and ever since I've been involved in box jelly fish awareness around Koh Samui, first loosely and from a distance, but over the years, when I heard from more and more cases and met with a Thai work group, sponsored by the Thai government, I got more and more involved in box jelly awareness on Koh Samui.

On my Samui weather blog and my Samui IDC diving blog ((google it, links are not allowed) there's plenty of info to be found that I provided over the years and what I tried to achieve. There have been several meetings with the THA (Thai Hotel Association) and one of the Thai experts has done training for local hotel staff on the island last year. The THA is trying to set up more training for early next year, before this incident happened. Possibly things get speeded up now. It's good to see and know that some of the gm's/hotels are very engaged in this matter but there's always room for improvement and get more gm's onboard.

The Thai experts will be visiting Samui tomorrow and the following day and will investigate.

In short; in general there's not enough done on Samui beaches by most of the hotels and the local government, despite hard work by some people on the island (this is not unique for Samui, at many locations it takes a sad event like we have now on Samui, before things change). No signs or very limited signs and information are available on beaches around the island, sometimes there are vinegar bottles but no signs and sometimes/very often, there's no vinegar and there are no signs. There are however also hotels that have information about box jelly fish in the guest rooms, have signs on the beaches and have vinegar poles. These are few though.

Many preventive solutions have been offered and some people on the island are very supportive but it takes more to get things changed. The Thai work group has visited Samui various times, as recent as two months ago and is trying to set up a box jelly network for Samui.

Probably the recent sad death of this young German girl will speed things up and the willingness to help and to do things. I can only hope so. Just like it did change attitudes on Koh Phangan when a young 5 year old French boy dead last year and when this year in August a young Thai woman died.

Research has shown that being open to the fact that box jelly fish is around and that measures are taken to protect the guests is actually received very positively. To the best of my knowledge, the last couple of years nothing has been tried to been brushed under a carpet, plenty of information about incidents in Thailand is available.

The season for the box jelly fish in Thailand is roughly from August to January. They can appear all year round though. The box jelly fish doesn't 'attack', it swims around and people swim into it. Box jelly fish don't go after' somebody. Encounters are possible all day long, during day and night time. The recent two deathly incidents happened at night, many other incidents happen during day time.

Protection can be among others a net on the beach, preventing bigger species of box jelly fish from entering, signs warning for box jelly and what to do, readily and easily available and plenty of vinegar (will stop the tentacles from firing but will not relieve the pain) and wear protective suits, stinger suits or shirts with long sleeves and pants like clothing on your legs.

The chances of actually getting stung in Thailand by box jelly fish are slim, very slim, but it's important to be aware and knowing what to do. A course where you learn how to do CPR might be an option.

"They were given primary care by rescue workers of Samui municipal rescue centre with vinegar to relieve their pains," - this is deeply disturbing as that is NOT what the vinegar is for....let's hope this is bad reporting and not bad training as regards the primary carers.

Were there signs on the beach and were there vinegar stations?

This is one of the most popular beaches in Thailand, in an area that is well within the region of box jellies - in Oz, there would be nets and the season clearly demarcated.

The more we hear of box jellies in Thailand, the more I'm reminded of the plot of "Jaws 1"

"They were given primary care by rescue workers of Samui municipal rescue centre with vinegar to relieve their pains, and later rushed to Bangkok Samui hospital."

And from later IN THE SAME ARTICLE!!! :-

"Experts say that the only treatment for box jellyfish is common vinegar. The vinegar does nothing to dull the pain but it does combat the toxicity. Without vinegar, the jellyfish stings continue to attack and destroy the victim’s flesh."

As a previous poster said, the safety of tourists does not appear to be the main concern - the main concern seems to be to make sure that tourists are not scared away - there are few enough of them as it is in spite of official figures to the contrary!

Most journalists don't do good research, in this case, vinegar is the best line of defense/help somebody can receive at the scene of the accident, but VINEGAR DOES NOT RELIEVE THE PAIN. It will stop the venom in the tentacles from keeping firing off.

I'm a diver and over the years, if there's an accident, the diver in question who had the accident, always dived on oxygen, according to the journalist (and it doesn't matter what language or country this is written in), well here's some news for you, divers don't dive with oxygen but with standard normal air, the same air that you breathe here at the surface.

Oxygen becomes toxic at depths exceeding 5 meters. So much for accurate reporting on dive accidents. Same or similar in this article.

Queensland Australia have a very serious problem with Box Jelly Fish stings at certain times of the year. The treatment always recommended and used by the lifeguards is Vinegar. However researchers at James Cook University and Cairns far north Queensland hospital. find that vinegar increases the venom load.

When the jelly fish venom balls are fired off, they release at between 20% and 30%. The application of vinegar will increase this to between 50% and 60%.

This research has been published in the Australian journal of Diving and Hyperbaric Medicine.

Please read my answer two posts above, or for your convenience, as mentioned by Dr. Lisa Gershwin, box jelly fish researcher;

"There were several things questionable about the research, in no particular order:

The authors forced nematocyst discharge with an electrical current. The nematocysts fired into a membrane, then venom was collected under the membrane, then vinegar was applied to the tentacles, then they collected venom again from under the membrane. They found that 60% more venom was obtained in the second round. They therefore concluded that the vinegar was causing vinegar to come out of the already discharged nematocysts.

First, There is no evidence that demonstrates that electrocuted tentacles behave like natural stings. In particular, it seems more likely that natural stings leave little venom behind, whereas electrocuted tentacles are likely to cause abortive firing, or incomplete firing, thus quite possibly leaving some venom behind. If this is the case, then the model does not represent real stings.

Second, their experimental design did not control for venom initially discharged into the membrane or pooled above the membrane, only what came through with each wash. Therefore it may be that some venom was lodged in or above the membrane from the initial electrocution, and was subsequently recovered by the second wash, giving misleading conclusions.

Third, the post-vinegar recovery was of very low venom potency, suggesting that it was diluted, supporting the idea that the venom came from in or above the membrane, not from secondary discharge. In this case, vinegar would be a better solvent than originally realised, and therefore an even better first aid option.

Fourth, and perhaps most importantly, the percentages tell the whole story. The authors estimated that 20-30% of nematocysts fire initially (I estimate 10-20%, but the difference doesn't matter for this argument). So 60% of 20-30% is about 10-15% additional venom load. But even if their hypothesis turns out to be entirely correct, that still leaves the other 70-80% of nematocysts armed and dangerous. It's that 70-80% that you want to disable, not the 10-15%. So if vinegar causes 10-15% more but it also causes 70-80% less, then by using vinegar you're still some 60-70% better off to use vinegar. Sorry my math is probably not so good this time of night (2am), but you get the idea hopefully.

Finally, much of the media quoted one of the authors of the study as saying that they found that vinegar makes stings worse. That's not true -- that's not what they found. They didn't test stings. They tested electrocuted tentacles in a lab. But their incomplete procedures even make what they did find debatable. '

This is very painful for me to read this as my friend passed away on July 31st in Koh Phagan at the Full Moon party after being stung by a box jellyfish. Thailand need to do something about that it's been going on for years now. I hope this girl didn't suffer for long. I wish my condoleances to her family and friends, this is a terrible tragedy

I have lived on Samui for past 8 years and only ever heard of one Box Jelly fish death, certainly not this one on 31st july. Just goes to show how much they will 'hush' things up for money.

Since 13 years I've been involved in box jelly fish awareness around Koh Samui, but to the very best of my knowledge, this is only the second fatality on Koh Samui, after an incident in 1999 on Chaweng Beach. There are plenty of incidents each year, but none lethal on Samui, except for these two. Please correct me if I'm wrong and can proof otherwise, many experts, Thai and international will be very interested to hear.

Seems a lot of people are happily assuming a jellyfish is a jellyfish is a jellyfish.

You're in the tropics now boys and things are a little different here.

If you want to live longer obey the cardinal rules - no swimming in the wet season and no swimming in calm water.

Box jellies avoid rough water or surf and tend to move out of the creeks into more open water during the wet season.

Trust me, a Portuguese man'o'war or some other slightly annoying stinger from the "old country" simply isn't in the same league as chironex fleckeri which is the most venomous of the box jellyfish - and one of the most venomous animals on the planet.

Death can follow rapidly from a decent encounter.

I know from first hand experience that vinegar doesn't take the pain away..it's purpose is to stop any unfired nodes from releasing venom which they will do readily (even when the tentacle is broken off) especially if people use the old remedy of rubbing the area with sand,

Use quack treatments at your peril.

The sting marks on the young lady are a little unusual as c.fleckeri tend to be more ladderlike in marking.

Good observation mudcrab. I initially thought it was Chironex fleckeri, but got corrected by Lisa Gershwin, supposedly there's a new species which comes close to C fleckeri but is best referred at this moment as 'Thai box jelly fish', by lack of proper research done on this species, to the best of my current knowledge.

DO NOT use vinegar on bow jellyfish it makes things even worse !

That is absolutely nonsense, where do you get that ill informed information from?

In case you're referring to research done recently in Australia, here's the answer to that from Dr. Lisa Gershwin, box jelly fish researcher;

"There were several things questionable about the research, in no particular order:

The authors forced nematocyst discharge with an electrical current. The nematocysts fired into a membrane, then venom was collected under the membrane, then vinegar was applied to the tentacles, then they collected venom again from under the membrane. They found that 60% more venom was obtained in the second round. They therefore concluded that the vinegar was causing vinegar to come out of the already discharged nematocysts.

First, There is no evidence that demonstrates that electrocuted tentacles behave like natural stings. In particular, it seems more likely that natural stings leave little venom behind, whereas electrocuted tentacles are likely to cause abortive firing, or incomplete firing, thus quite possibly leaving some venom behind. If this is the case, then the model does not represent real stings.

Second, their experimental design did not control for venom initially discharged into the membrane or pooled above the membrane, only what came through with each wash. Therefore it may be that some venom was lodged in or above the membrane from the initial electrocution, and was subsequently recovered by the second wash, giving misleading conclusions.

Third, the post-vinegar recovery was of very low venom potency, suggesting that it was diluted, supporting the idea that the venom came from in or above the membrane, not from secondary discharge. In this case, vinegar would be a better solvent than originally realised, and therefore an even better first aid option.

Fourth, and perhaps most importantly, the percentages tell the whole story. The authors estimated that 20-30% of nematocysts fire initially (I estimate 10-20%, but the difference doesn't matter for this argument). So 60% of 20-30% is about 10-15% additional venom load. But even if their hypothesis turns out to be entirely correct, that still leaves the other 70-80% of nematocysts armed and dangerous. It's that 70-80% that you want to disable, not the 10-15%. So if vinegar causes 10-15% more but it also causes 70-80% less, then by using vinegar you're still some 60-70% better off to use vinegar. Sorry my math is probably not so good this time of night (2am), but you get the idea hopefully.

Finally, much of the media quoted one of the authors of the study as saying that they found that vinegar makes stings worse. That's not true -- that's not what they found. They didn't test stings. They tested electrocuted tentacles in a lab. But their incomplete procedures even make what they did find debatable. "

Vinegar is at this moment the best solution for box jelly stings

It's available in Plai Laem and on the Ghost Road (3BB that is), so my educated guess is that it will be available in Bang Rak. Why not visit their offices and ask?

RIP

I'll believe it when the pictures of 100s of sandals in disarray are published

here in Dutch, hope that satisfies your morbid needs

Passed this sot this morning, intensive construction at that point with new drainage and the curve, lots of equipment and pre-fab drain pieces all over in that exact spot.

It wasn't on the hill, it was on the flat on the bend at the end of Bang Por beach just past Relax. A good 800m before the hill......

The picture sure shows the accident on a hill. How would he flip over on the flat? In which direction was the vehicle going?

Coming down from the hill?

You are obviously not familiar with the area and the location where the accident happened. It has been explained before that it did not happen on the actual hill, and why it looks like it happened on the hill. Just read all previous comments.

“It was pretty scary,” Mr McWilliams said.

“I’m glad nobody was seriously hurt”.

Except the dead of a 3 year old. That perp needs more than just some 'serious hurting'!

So throwing condoms and wrappers away is not ok but all other trash disposed off by Thai people anywhere but in a trash bin is ok?

Thx jimmy, was in Makro yesterday and didn't find it, so may try to make it myself.

dangerous area by the sounds of it I have never heard of an accident involving a baht bus before it must be a first a tragic accident RIP to the driver and the other victims.

Seen a baht bus accident in exactly the same spot a few years ago, only minor injuries.

There's a guy near makro, try him. If looking at makro, o your right, about 200 meters, there will be a Mac sign outside.

Any idea on where to get Tahini?

Found them there yesterday, Big C had them 10 days ago for 170.-THB in a special sale.

Thx for the heads up, much appreciated

Sting No More.

Introduced about a month ago, in Hawaii:

http://www.hawaiiweblog.com/2015/06/17/jellyfish-sting-cream

There's no scientific back up to proof that this will help.

There are a few signs on Samui, I've not been to KP for a while.... but perhaps there are some now? but they are not going to post every 50 metres....

It would be best to carry one's own vinegar, 5% white vinegar is about 60 baht for 3 litres at all the large stores... bottle it down for beach use (just in case) or just purchase a small bottle of white vinegar!

Beach morning glory is supposed to help too...

Condolences to family and friends for the death of the victim....

There were signs on pretty much all beaches before the Thai lady was stung, but not on Haad Rin, they did not follow the lead of all other beach areas after a French 5 year old boy died last year at Haat Kuad or bottle beach.

Beach morning glory should only be used AFTER treatment with vinegar, not before, that can worsen the situation. Beach morning glory may ease the pain a little bit but only morphine will do a proper job in case of box jelly fish stings.

What beach the woman was swimming in phangan?

There are diffrent type of vinegar for cooking and medical vinegar what is the diffrence? The result is better when you mix it with backing powder!

Haad Rin beach, where the FMP is held.

Any straight. off the shell white vinegar will do just fine.

Baking powder is not advised for box jelly fish stings but may be useful when sting by Portuguese man'o'war

Thaiwife claim that morning Thai News say that NO warning signs about box jellyfish was up until the poor woman got stung ... then signs came up ... TiT I guess, life has no value here awful way to go for her

RIP

Box jellyfish is a new phenomenon in Thailand. They were first observed a few years ago. There is just not enough local knowledge about these creatures yet.

That's not correct. Local Thai people that live and/or work near the sea know box jelly fish since a long time. First known recorded fatality is on Chaweng beach back in 1999.

It is not wise to go swim in the seas after dark.

For the lady, sorry you had to go through so much pain.

Swimming in day or night time makes no difference. Most cases of box jelly fish stings are recorded during the day time. It's a lot harder to give help during the night time, due to various reasons. The first reactions to the Thai lady in problems were the wrong actions, due to the darkness, her problems were misinterpreted and initial response was for drowning, not for box jelly fish stings.

I don't think vinegar will save your life for this particular spieces .... artificial breathing maybe ...what about forming some nurses in australia and what about the stigose in a previous coment ?

Use of vinegar will give you the best fighting chance to survive if stung by box jelly fish.

There's a Thai work group, funded by the Thai government who have regularly visited Samui and Phangan (they're currently on Samui and Phangan) to raise awareness and set up networks to make help swift and easy when needed.

Lots of presentation in hospitals and clinics on both islands have been given, awareness is slowly coming around.