Swiss1960

I thought VISA underwrite transactions, which is how they can refund fraudulent transactions ?

totster

From what I've been able to tell, the international VISA card network provides basically no meaningful consumer protection provisions in Thailand as relates to VISA logo credit card or debit card fraud.

I've called international VISA in the past and discussed it with them regarding Thailand. Their answer: it's up to the local policy of the card issuing bank.

VISA and MasterCard provide network services, but globally, they provide neither consumer protection nor help to consumers with regards to disputed transactions. They provide global rules about disputes and chargebacks which differ based on the regions (US, Europe etc.) and based on the transaction type (e-commerce, 3D Secure, EMV transactions, PIN transactions etc.)

Within the regions, there are again special rules. As an example, a Chip and PIN transaction within Europe can NEVER be charged back from the issuer to the acquirer / merchant, because it is assumed that the cardholder is liable for any transaction made with his card and his PIN (which he has to keep secret at all times). Within countries, there can be different rules between banks, but within countries, the consumer protection acts from the government do take precedence over the credit card rules (i.e. in the UK, consumer protection is really high).

Finally, the banks have general conditions with regards to their cardholders that can additionally put lot of burden to the cardholder in case of lost / stolen / misused cards. Furthermore, banks have more or less high (or low) sophisticated fraud prevention / detection systems that might stop fraudulent transactions even before the cardholder reports his card as stolen.

by the way... for techies here... high tech was the attack by a Cambridge University PhD who published an article few years back saying "Chip and PIN is cracked"...

He actually managed to mis-use a flaw in the EMV protocols of POS terminals and was able to do a Chip and PIN transaction without actually knowing the PIN code...

When we analyzed, we found out that he needed a genuine credit card, a card reader attached to a laptop from where a cable was attached to the chip of a dummy card which he had to input intto the chip reader of the POS without the sales person seeing the cable.... the dummy card did route the communication between terminal and card to the laptop where the fraudster could change some values of the transaction flow telling the card that it had a successful online PIN transaction but telling the terminal the it was a offline PIN transaction authorized by the card...

THAT was hightech!!! Actually, this was so hightech, that we have NEVER seen any fraudster using this kind of attack... and we later could read that this PhD did the attack and the article, because both VISA and MC had previously declined funding for his PhD work...

The problem is that now they can scan the details from your cards while it in your wallet and in you pocket, as a result there is a growing business in scan proof wallets.

Yes, that is my understanding. But I wasn't thinking about that at the time as I haven't been exposed to that issue lately.

guys... guys... guys... don't panic, don't get paranoid....

Yes, there are readers that send out RF waves and can activate your contactless card to talk with the reader... but those readers work over distances up to 10m, depending on the signal strength they send out... But they can not scan the details of your card in your wallet!!

What they can do is talk with the RFID functionality on your card and create responses from your card (not even transactions) which would include a CVV3 value. What they can do is create a few hundred such responses within few minutes of scanning your card. BUT this is not a big deal!

What they then can do is load these responses to special devices and go to contactless POS terminals and do replay attacks... BUT depending on the settings of four different values used to create the CVV3 and checking transactions from your card, the probability of such a replay attack is that 1 out of 10'000 responses they scanned will be a working response... and give them the opportunity to make ONE single transaction of normally less than 40CHF / 25$ / 25€ ...

just not (yet) worth the effort of doing this, as other options for fraud (spying PIN codes on ATM's, scanning magstripes specially from US cards without EMV, phising card numbers and CVV2 on the Internet etc.) are widely available and create much higher profits.than contactless transactions. And since contactless cards have max amounts of offline transactions and then require online authorisation with (normally) PIN code checking, the chance of such a replay attack is even more diminished...

So... risk analysis we have done for our contacless cards (and we are roling out tens of thousands) shows no risk to worry about... even spending money for a "protective wallet" is not worth it... your bank only needs to set the parameters according to the security recommendations given by VISA / MC.

Hey guys... it's a business! Of course, specially on paid websites, where guys pay for credits for the girls to be able to use Internet and send letters etc etc... there you need girls with good English skills to keep the guys happy... and with all the warnings out in the Net, I would assume that most of the guys out there know they are being scammed... but ignore it for the fun part of it... looking for a kick.... dreaming that all the words about love and how good they look are true...

And let's think about this: How many of the guys out there on these platforms are honest with the girls when they claim

1) to be highly successful business man and

2) "honestly" seeking LTR and marriage

3) describing themselves in nice colours

???

It's a business... everybody who wants to know about it will know about it...

Hmmmm. The 5% must be a Swiss thing....

It is a fact that your issuing bank is not obligated to use the Visa/MC exchange rate. ... In the US, after a recent law suit, this would now be transparent, as this has to be completely reported as a separate line item on one's bank statement.

On my bank statement, the passed-on 1% Visa fee is reported as a "Foreign Trans Chg." My bank charges no other fees. That my bank chooses to pass on the Visa fee -- and call it by a name that indicates a fee set up by the bank, well, so much for semantics. The fee is what it is.

For the 5%: You must know that there is not just a single exchange rate used for a transaction, i.e. from Thailand to a Swiss account. When you do a cash advance, then the Thai bank will do it's settlement with VISA / MC using a pre-defined currency. This can be US$, GB£ or any other currency allowed / accepted by VISA / MC. Then VISA / MC will charge the issuing bank in another currency, this could be done in either Swiss Franc, GB£ or US$, depending on what was defined. The exchange rate charged to you is completely different from this settlement circuit and your issuing bank will use the rate best fit to make profit. Now, if you look at small countries with small volumes of foreign currency exchange rates, it might be beneficial for the local bank to offer DCC than to relate on the (not so good) exchange rate offered by VISA / MC for such small volumes. Don't forget, exchange rates heavily depend on the cost of the local banks to deal with various currencies. The 5% is what we (credit card issuer) know from experience (I work in this industry since 15 years).

Now for 1% VISA fee... it just does not exist. VISA interchange fees depend on various points:

- is it a domestic transaction or not (there might be local laws limiting the interchange fee, i.e. within the EU or Switzerland)

- what kind of purchase did you do, cash, retail, e-commerce, e-commerce with 3D secure, EMV or magstripe etc.

- what is the volume that your bank processes, the higher the better interchange fee...

Transparency is also requiered by law in Switzerland and I have internal knowledge of three banks.

- some banks take their internal exchange rate for high volume currencies (i.e. Euro or $), as they can buy that currency much cheaper in the market and make higher profits, but they use VISA / MC rates for all other transactions.

- some banks use the same foreign currency mark-up for all transactions, others differentiate and take from .9% for Euro to 2.5% for Thai Baht.

On my statements (three different banks) I see mark-up on the exchange rate for Euro or Thai Baht from 09% to 1.75% to 2.5%. As required by law, I do also see which rate from which date was used, and the banks inform me whether they take their own exchange rate or whether they take the rate from VISA / MC.

I think it is very rare that DCC is a good deal. I think the mark up of exchange rate is usually 4 to 5%.

I'd say it's never a good deal. It's sold as "you instantly get to see what it costs in your home currency." Period. Pretty expensive option.

And do you think the Visa/MC networks are going to give up their 1% foreign transaction fee (once called "foreign exchange fee" before the advent of DCC)? Heck no. And neither are the issuing banks going to waive their fees if you opt for the merchant's exchange rate under DCC. Why would any sensible cog in this chain of events say 'we'll take less profit, so that foreign merchants and their servicing banks can make more profit.' Duh. Plenty enough to go around -- at the consumer's expense.

Some half knowledge, which I'd like to correct:

First, yes in 95% of all DCC cases, it is bad for the customer, so only if your bank charges excess exchange rates (specially for "exotic" currencies), you should use DCC, that is why I said before, ask your bank about those costs in advance

BUT: VISA / MC do not charge foreign transaction fees, they charge Interchange fees, independant of the source / currency of the transaction. They charge Interchange fees even for transactions within a single country. Foreign Transaction fees are set up by the banks but not by VISA / MC. Some years ago, EU had to deal with foreign transaction fees within Europe (i.e. Euro transactions from Spain to Germany) and has clearly forbidden such fees as transactions in the same currency have to be dealt with as domestic.

And interchange works two ways: For cash advance at ATM, it is the ATM provider to receive the Interchange fees, for normal purchases (hotels, merchants), it is the issuing bank (cardholder bank) that receives the fees. That is the reason why most banks charge their card customers a cash advance fee to recover their Interchange fee costs on top of any possible exchange rate markup.

I've been using my card in ATMs in Chiang Mai to draw 10,000bt at a time over the past week. I've used Bangkok Bank for all withdrawals apart from one where I used Kasikorn instead. The BKK Bank withdrawals are costing around £206 per time. The one Kasikorn withdrawal cost £218! Beware!

I believe the problem is only with a mastercard not a VISA card. They call it Dynamic Currency Conversion and they rape you for around 5%. It happened to my wife as she got confused by all the questions.

That would explain it. With my ATM cards from the US, I get exactly the same exchange rate from all bank ATM's in Thailand because the exchange rate is being set by VISA and not by the local bank. Maybe it doesn't work that way for all foreign ATM cards though.

DCC (Dynamic Currency Conversion) is one part of the exchange "problem": ATM providers (called Acquirers, mostly Banks) under international VISA / MC Rules and Regulations are allowed to offer the customer the possibility that the money withdrawal will be charged to his card issuing bank (Issuer) at a fixed exchange rate set by the ATM provider. Now it can be assumed that this rate is slightly higher than the rates that would be charged by VISA / MC. Offering DCC is the decision of the Acquirer and can be offered for all credit, pre-payed or debit cards of all brands (brand = VISA / MC / AMEX / JCB / Diners etc.)

If you as customer choose to not accept DCC, then VISA / MC will use their own exchange rate (chaging several times per day) to charge your Issuing bank for the money withdrawal.

Finally, your Issuer (card issuing bank) decides how they charge your card account. They can accept the VISA / MC exchange rates, they can choose their own exchange rates (i.e. bank internal rates) or the brand exchange rates (or a mix of both) and they can charge you additionally with currency exchange mark up (can be up to 2.5% ontop of the exchange rate of VISA / MC) and they can charge you with an additional withdrawal fee...

What does this mean? You must look into the charges that your bank will ask for when withdrawing foreign currency. You must ask them, what exchange rates they will take. And then you must calculate whether it is cheaper to accept DCC rates or not. And you must calculate the minimum withdrawal amout in your favour. If your issuing bank charges a 1% currency withdrawal rate with lets say a 5£ minimum, then all withdrawals below $500 will be in your disadvantage. Your bank will charge you 5£ minimum for every withdrawal and when withdrawing £250, this would be a 2% markup...

If the total add-on costs of your issuing bank exceed 2% of the withdrawal amount, then normally DCC will be cheaper. But what I do is to ask my bank about how much a 30'000 Baht withdrawal will cost me at the time of holiday and then I can compare that cost with the DCC amount offered by the ATM bank.

THE WORST CASE SCENARIO: NO BEER IN PATTAYA AND THE CABLE TV BREAKS DOWN!!! Doomsday.

SAME SCENARIO FOR THAIS: Lau kau factories flooded and the tv is off.

I d take the next plane to......Libya. Safer.

Well, since I am a Swiss and since Swiss are the best organized people anyway, I have sent a mail to my favorite bar manager in Pattaya and told him to keep few gallons of my favorite brand ready for my arrival... just a question of organisation, guys

On first thought, I was also going to joke about it... invoking emergency laws to prevent beer shortage to happen... but then I remembered the hundreds of thousands of people really affected by the flood and so I refrain from joking around...

Even me NOT yet living in Thailand know about the 150 Baht fee for the transfers of money from BKK head office to Pattaya (both SCB and Kasikorn same fee)

Good info folks. Thanks.

So I am deducing that 5,000 to 7,000 per month probably covers about 80% of the young adult factory workers - out of which they've got to pay for food and personal transport (80-100THB/day), rent & electric (1000-2000 per month), and other miscellaneous essentials. so they have a maximum of 1000 to 2000 baht per month "spare" cash (5000 to 7000 minus 4000 to 5000 living costs).

I'd say your calculation works only for 5% of the young adult factory workers... the others will see the cigarettes, the beer or (specially for women) the daily fortune-teller session as essential for their lifes... which leaves them nada at the end of the month...and living with 80-100 Baht a day might be possible in the most rural parts of the country, but never in or near cities...

BTW, I'd be surprised if those taxis waiting at Central would do that trip for 300 baht. Seems to me they demand 200 baht just to sneeze.

Certainly, if that is the case, they are violating their agreement with City Hall.

The Taxi Meters, by law, need to use the meters.

If not, write the Mayor at City Hall. I am sure he will get right on it.

Am using Taxi Meters from time to time, also from Central to Jomtien, specially when it rains. Troughout the last 5 years, I have never ever seen a running taxi meter, they tell you the price and if you don't agree... walk or take the Baht bus... during low seasons, they do the trip for 250, otherwise ask for 400, you offer 300, if they accept ok, otherwise walk away and see whether they come after you to accept 300.

But I heard from friends that with the current traffic with all the BKK people in Pattaya, even taxi meters are not much faster than Baht bus...

I have a friend who is transgender. She always felt like a woman and just needed the op to become one. I consider her a woman. I wouldn't care if she used the woman's toilet.

The thing is, transgender people don't feel like the sex they were born with, so while you feel like a man, they do not.

I would think that your friend is more a transsexual person - a person who was born in the wrong body. And after the gender adjusting surgery, she probably would not any more see herself as transsexual / transgender, but as woman, right? Transgender is by definition somebody who switches the social gender (i.e. man lives as woman), but does not really seek gender adjustment. Crossdresser finally are people who like to wear the other genders clothes, but mostly for fun / sexual excitement.

Personally, for transsexual / transgender people, I do not at all mind them using the bathrooms of the chosen gender and i would assume that now Mr. Bono will use the men's bathroom... On the other side, Î always see ladyboys in Thailand using the women's bathrooms...

Why pay that much? When I arrive, friend of mine sends me a private taxi out of Pattaya, he picks me up at the airport and drops me in Jomtien for 1500 Baht, all fees included...

car is clean, aircon and shock absorbers are working, driver is sober and not too reckless on the road...

you been had there....1500 baht

Well, I know I can have it for 1'000 Jomtien to swampy, so I take the 500 as top-up for double road fees, waiting at airport, car park fee etc... but it's nice coming out of customs after 12 hour flight and have somebody pick your bags and drive you to the front of the hotel without any hassling, dealing etc. etc.... and of course, my driver has his instructions to stop halfway for me to smoke another cigarette and get a coffee from Starbucks ;-) ... full service as you can see

I have hotmail, cant see anything will have another look and have tightened up my AVG security, thanks for the advice chums.

In hotmail, select the message and either

=> "Mark as" => Phishing Scam

or

=> "Move to" => Junk

Both should eliminate further such mails in short time

Post the messages you receive about the mails not being delivered, that might help to give you more hints

It has left me feeling sick, the sight of people just stood watching when this old guy was trapped under a motor bike and side car after probably hitting the concrete post and was moaning in agony. Am I surprised? To be honest after all I have read over the years, no, but it has left a very sour taste.

Everytime i see bad accidents there are always people helping but lots more watching.

Have arrived many times at crash scenes before the emergency services and seen some very bad scenes but always seems there are good people out there like yourself that will help.

In my opinion, this is not Thailand specific, you see it all over the world, people beaten to death and nobody helps, kids beaten by adults on the street and nobody stops, women harassed on the street and nobody interfering... accidents on streets and people stopping their cars to watch... and if asked why you get one of those answers:

1 ) I did not know what to do...

2 ) I thought somebody else would...

3 ) I was afraid to ....

4 ) none of my business...

First a thank to Rimmer, very helpful link to the procedures in Thailand.

Of course you need a will for each country. Just make sure that the one in Thailand states that it's just for Thailand, and the one in your home country does not mention anything in Thailand.

It would be a nightmare trying to use a will in one country for the other.

That, my dear beachlover, is not fully correct!

1) I can write a will in Thailand by hand, sign and date it and have two witnesses confirm my signature. This will is a valid will for any Swiss authority who would be approached with this will.

2) Obviously now I learned from Rimmers link that I can have this will legally deposited in Thailand. I can do the same thing in Switzerland with the same will. That means I have one single will and have it registered in all countries where I have funds to be distributed.

3) Two different wills can not exist under Swiss Civil Code. It clearly states that the will with the latest date is the will that counts, as long as it is legally valid (and it does not need to be notarized as long as it is hand-written by myself and signed by two witnesses).

4) The only exception under Swiss Civil Code is made, if an amendment to the first will is made which clearly states that it is an amendment!

Otherwise, the following could happen:

a ) I make a will in Switzerland before I leave for Thailand and do not specifically list the items in question and put my Swiss sons as beneficiaries.

b ) Later, I make a will in Thailand for another beneficiary (thai wife, thai kids..) and again, do not specifically mention the items in question.

When I pass away, the second will from Thailand will supersede the first will in Switzerland, as again, a legally valid will (handwirtten, dated, signed and witnessed) does not need notarization and deposit in Switzerland. That means that my Thai survivors could take that second will to Switzerland and claim it to be valid over my Swiss will and my Swiss sons would loose all!

So if you want to have two wills for two countries, as you stated, each will must have clear delimits / demarcations to the other one, else your beneficiaries in the two countries will loose all you wanted them to have through lawyer fees.

Legally, their can not be two wills, their is always only 1 will for 1 person which includes every asset globally.

While I can not speak for Thailand, as a Swiss citizen, I can do a will in Thailand, sign it in front of two witnesses who must confirm that they have seen me sign and date it personally and this will be a legal will for Switzerland.

Of course, now I can either keep this will at home and hope that somebody finds it, likes what is inside and does not destroy it... or I do send it back to Switzerland to my district of origin and they will keep it and assign an executor when I pass away. Whether this is true also in Thailand, I would not know.

Problem with 2 wills is that they might deviate from each other (and the smallest deviation could lead to huge problems) and it would be unclear which of the wills (specially if dated on the same day) should take precedence...

So if you hate your surviving family... write to wills, have them both legally signed, dated on the same day... and have different beneficiaries in each will

As mentioned above, the tool bar on the bottom of the TV website is not installed on your computer, it is "only" web-based code executed in your browser session.

Second, yes there are many sites that ask you for the installation / activation of SW products like Java, Active-X, want to install cookies etc. etc. From a security perspective, you must first decide whether you trust this site or not... and then it makes sense to NOT install the SW from this site, but to go to the web-site of the official SW provider (i.e. java.com, adobe.com) and install the original product. This not only gives you the security that you don't download any unwanted add-on at the same time, but it also will enable your computer to track SW updates for these products on a regular basis.

Third suggestion is that you have two users on your computer. First, you have your Admin user which is allowed to download new products or updates. Second, you install your personal user for daily surfing which does NOT have Admin rights and therefore, if ever a website tries to install a SW product without your approval, you will receive a popup telling you who tries to install what and you will need to enter your Admin user password for the installation => this is the best security feature you can have preventing unwanted / unauthorized installations!

Why pay that much? When I arrive, friend of mine sends me a private taxi out of Pattaya, he picks me up at the airport and drops me in Jomtien for 1500 Baht, all fees included...

car is clean, aircon and shock absorbers are working, driver is sober and not too reckless on the road...

It depends on various things. I am doing regular SWIFT transfers to SCB and Kasikornbank and it normally takes 48 hours to be pre-booked and 72 hours to be available... I even experienced that the money arrived at different days even though send at the same second...

My bank does not have any relationship into Thailand, therefore they must use full SWIFT system. Other banks might have partner banks in BKK and can surround SWIFT with inter-bank systems.

Then it depends whether the receiving account is in the head office in BKK or in a subsidiary in Pattaya (as in my cases). SCB as well as Kasikornbank take another day (and 120 Baht fee....) for the booking into the Pattaya account...

That's my personal experience over the last months

I'd advise you to just keep things as they are for a while.

You'll begin to understand the way things work in Thailand, yes they do take care of their parents, it's a bit upside down to our way of thinking but you'll get used to it.

It is indeed very possible that you are not the only one on her speed dial, but it may be that you are.

You'll just have to wait and see.

She doesnt work in the green mango, ile assume you have been there many times Thats just where she picks up men I suppose. Theres loads of them in there. I saw her friend today in the background on skype.. Quite nice if i do say so myself. Yeah I dont send her money on a regular basis. I had just been over there for a couple of months and she wanted to go home rather than go back to samui. She cant go home with no money and seeing as she had been with me for 2 weeks she didnt earn none. as you can imagine she is like the bank of thailand when she walks through the door. everyone wants a slice. I see it with my own eyes. lol.

You got a good answer here. Keep it the way it is and wait and see. If you are with her, give her money for the time she spends with you as she can't work during that time (whatever work she would do), take her out for eat and shopping. If you are back home and she asks you for 10K to go back to her family once a year (and not more), send her the money if you don't go broke and that's how you keep her happy and will be rewarded next time you go there and see her. But never forget that sending money to a girl (no matter where she comes from...) is like investing in high risk shares and you never know whether you still get interest in 6 months time, so you better only invest what you can afford to write down to zero in your books the minute you invest.

You still have years to decide what to do and learn about Thailand and Thai culture and Thai girls (yes, they can be very seductive..)

lyne55

You have given yourself all the answers you need, you just have to read them correctly...

First of all, you know what work she does, which means she has another Farang every other night... do you accept this girl as your future wife? What do you tell your friends and parents where you met her and what work she does?

Second about money: You told her that you don't have much... which of course, she either does not believe as she sees you stay in hotels, buy her clothes, pay her salary when you are with her (which you do in her opinion, whether you call it salary or not...), take her to restaurants and from time to time give her "small" money... which is small to you but not to her. And if she has other guys like you (which undoubtly she has), she just might be very clever and not ask for your money as she gets enought from others... or she just enjoys being with you while you are there, because you are young and fun to be with and not one of her 50-70y old "regulars" who provide for her living...

Third about marriage and family: What do you think she will ask for when you take her to the UK and get married? First, you'll have double expenses for food, living, insurances, clothes etc. and all in UK pounds at UK prices and not any more in Baht at Thai prices. And then about the girl: Of course, she will tell you that she can not get married to you if you don't accept her girl coming with her... which triples your cost... or she will tell you that now you have to take care about the cost of living for her mother and her girl... and honestly, that would be a must-do, as right now, her mother and her girl live on the salary she makes from all those farang...

And finally... don't even think about marriage until she has seen you in the UK for at least two times 3 months on a visitors Visa... preferrably in winter time so she understands what it means to live there... and you understand what it means financially to have somebody at your side who needs lot of care and money... and you understand what it means to support her mother and little girl back home...

Now, I don't intend to talk you out of your plans... as I see from your previous answers to previous posts, you don't like any answers that are critical about your plans and ideas... reminds me of the thread "why ask questions if you don't want to hear honest answers"... So all I try to do is give you something to think about... by telling you to re-read your own posts and then make an educated guess about how long she will not be asking for money once you get married with her...

Thanks guys, GeoEng, drugging does seem to be the case. I got some of my memory back and recall waking up first in a small shed or storage room, more to add to the suspicion.

I think I was in denial, the guys I was with (2 expat males, one of their wives, and a thai guy were all regulars and friends at this bar, noone else there. I was in Patong for a bit early last month and was at this place with almost the same crowd, friendly great group. Hopefully they can shed some light, I will visit when it opens.

zorro1, yes, I am still alive and well, my ass is not sore, I have my room key and my other belongings so I am counting this as fortunate, a relatively cheap way to learn a hard lesson. Hangover has passed too

For the record:

- found the bike, will call the owner soon and report soon, and act once I get some money

- police didn't mind that I had no passport but I remember the number, also I found my Turkish citizenship card which was in my pack (has a photo)

- got a police report so hopefully that will help for travel insurance, the phone was expensive, I'll get onto that tomorrow once I talk to the guys at the bar

- hopefully meeting up with a couple tonight and see if I can borrow some money

Lucky for you with regards to the bike! Would have been a mess, cause I am sure the rental owner would never have given your passport back without seeing the money first for the new bike! And since you have your Turkish citizenship card (with a photo, you probably can use this as ID for Western Union transfer from back home!