bankei

Anatta is not atta. So to understand anatta you need to know what an atta is. My understanding is an atta is a permanent unchanging thing over and above the 5 skhandas. It is something which survives death, and is reborn etc. The Buddha denied all of this and said there is nothing but the 5 skhandas and they cannot be held to be an atta because they are impermanent, constantly changing.

There is an excellent book by Steven Collins title Selfless Persons. Imagery and Thought in Theravada Buddhism. Collins examines all instances in the Pali Canon where there is talk or mention of a atta, self, jiva etc and also looks at the development of the doctrine of anatta in the later tradition, including commentarial.

The topic of the atta keeps popping up again and again. Even Mahaboowa has been critised as holding erroneous views has he has taught something about an eternal citta.

The Dhammakaya is nothing but a cult. Their main interest is in money and they may try to differentiate themselves slightly from the mainstream to help attract followers. it should not be taken seriously in terms of doctrine - but has to be worried about because of its economic might.

Samuian. I couldn't understand any your post. You did not even address the OPs question

one point of view is that it is better to give to the 'good' person rather than the 'bad' person. Good people will do further good with the gift and bad people will do further bad.

Many Buddhists think that the sangha is full of good people, fields of merit, so giving to the sangha gains more merit. It also helps purpetual the sasana. This view is also endorsed by the monks.

My view is that it is better to help those that are in most need. I would rather help a poor person than a rich monk. Besides monks do not need anything, they get everything they need.

Also I have yet to find a good member of the sangha, execpt for one Burmese monk living in Sydney.

The latest development.

The supreme patriarch (acting) has revoked Ajahn Brahm's preceptor status. He can no longer ordain monks under the 'thai system'.

Under the vinaya a preceptor needs to have been a monk for at least 10 years. In Thailand there are additional requirements impossed by the State that only monks licenced as preceptors can ordain other monks. To get the licence an exam needs to be passed and there are additional requirements.

So it seems in Thailand the rules of the State can over ride the vinaya.

It is likely that Ajahn Brahm will continue to ordain outside of Thailand, but the monks he ordains will not be regarded as coming under the Thai Sangha. It may be that they are still considered validly ordained, maybe similar to the monks of Sri Lanka, or Burma, but it could create minor problems for those monks if they wish to spend time living in Thailand.

There are no guarantees that the Bhikkhu ordination lineage has remained intact for 2500 years, but so what? does it really matter in the end?

If indeed the lineage of all Thervada Bhikkhus is broken then there are now no bhikkhus in the world. However what proof do you have that this is in fact the case.?

I have no proof.

But it is interesting the prince Mongkut, before he was a King, did not want to ordain under the Thai sangha because he thought the lineage was not pure.

It is also interesting that there have been several high profile Abbots of recent years who have been disrobed due to sexual scandals. One a few years ago got a long jail sentence. What happened to all the monks they ordained?

How do you know the what the ordaining monks are concealing?

The Englishman known as Sangharakshita was ordained in India over 50 years ago and he later found out many of the ordaining monks at his ordination had mistresses and children. He has written about this in a few of his books, one called "43 years ago". He maintained that although he was ordained, he was technically never a monk. (But he seemed to have strayed early on as a 'monk' and was using this as a justification of his own homosexual behavious).

Wat Pah Pong monks won't do any ceremonies with other monks of the same Nikaya, Mahanikaya, such as ordinations or chanting the Patimokha. They obviously question the lineage to which they belong.

My point is that if you look hard enough there are questions about all the lineages being intact.

Yes it is interesting to see jet-setting 'forest monks'. Many of the so-called forest monks jet around the world at great expense.

"Many"?

Yes, many. These WAM meetings are held all over the world. Brahm was 'summoned' to Thailand by his group leaders and he had to fly out at a few days notice. The WAM meeting was going to be held in Perth with many monks coming from England, NZ, Thailand, etc. It has now been changed to Thailand. There are also teaching engagements overseas these monks fly to etc.. They get around a fair bit.

I am not sure it is a bad thing, expecially these days, but it is interesting that these 'ascetic' monks who refuse to drink milk in the afternoon are high flyers.

I feel uneasy about the whole tambun BS. As it is practiced in Thailand it has nothing to do with what the Buddha taught and has been promoted by the monks to encourage more giving to themselves.

These days I refuse to give to monks or temples at all. There are better ways to 'make merit' by actually helping people who need helping.

Bankei

As for the ordination, I don't see anything wrong with it. The Bhikkhuni lineage is not dead, but has survived within the Chinese based Buddhism - China, Taiwan, Korea. It was introduced into China from Sri Lanka at one stage. The ceremony was conducted by properly ordained Bhikkhuni.

The trouble is conservative Thai Theravada monks do not consider the Chinese lineage valid.

First of all it is not Theravada, but the Dharmaguptaka lineage. This vinaya has more rules than Theravada and is different in many areas.

Secondly, it seems the Chinese are not as concerned about minor details as Theravadins. Theravadins tend to be nit pickers when following all the minor things to the letter. eg. in Sri Lanka a dispute arose within the Siyam Nikaya (Mahanikaya introduced lineage). One group performed an ordination in a 'water siima'. This is a boundary made by water. (Monastic acts need to be carried out by unanimous decisions of all the monks in the 'area' so the concept of Siima developed. Siima is a boundary, usually defined by stones). As there was no siima boundary established they performed an ordination on a little island because water boudary is considered a natural siima. But there was a plank left connecting the island to the mainland. One group declared these ordinations was invalid because of the plank. The dispute grew and today there are 2 separate groups within the Siyam Nikaya who declare the other lineage invalid - though they seem to have come to accept each other.

Thirdly, the Chinese lineage is considered to have been broken at stages. eg in Korea the lineage died out during the Japanese occupation and then was introduced but only with the ordination by Bhikkhuni, not the dual ordination. Also at times in China it had been broken and then re-established in less than proper fashion.

In Thailand King Mongkut set up the Dhammayut Nikaya because he considered the Thai monks corrupt and the lineage broken in the past. There are questions abotu the validity of the Mahanikaya monks - but these days this is all forgotten

This ordination is not 100% pure because the Theravada lineage had died out, but this is as close as it can get. There are no guarantees that the Bhikkhu ordination lineage has remained intact for 2500 years, but so what? does it really matter in the end?

In time the Bhikkhuni will come to be accepted. There are already about 20 Bhikkhuni in Thailand and hundreds in Sri Lanka and more throughout the west.

Brahm is very popular with the farang dharma population. I've met him a couple times at Vipassana gatherings and was impressed with his gift for teaching. Again, men are not ordained, women are not ordained; beings are ordained. This attempt to sex-up Buddhism by drawing up a bhikku-bhikkhuni spat is irrelevant to all but the most crusty unhappy monks.

I wonder how many have actually met Ajarn Brahm or have been to the aforementioned temple.?

I've been to one Dhamma talk by him, done a one-day retreat with him, and read both of his books.

I have met him and been to the temples here in Perth, I am not a Buddhist but my wife is fairly devout being a Thai lass.

Some of the things I have noticed about him leave me shaking my head...he has attended at various festivals but tends to gravitate towards the so called hi-so crowd and basically ignores the "common people", I dont know if this is normal for an Abbot or not

He deferred a traditional festive day function here a number of years ago for a week because he had a lunch appointment with the then Premier G Gallop. About 60 people attended on the first day only to have to come back the following week.

It is getting rare to see him at either of the temples here because he always seems to be off somewhere conducting talks etc... or promoting his books. I do allow for the fact that he has been to see his sick mother recently.

I dont know what all this business means to the temple here but my concern would be on how would it affect our Thai community here. My understanding is that it means that temple here will be an independant entity. Quite a few of the Thais here are now starting to question his motives and asking "Is he becoming less of a Monk for the people and more of a Monk for Ajarn Brahm."

So going on his history here, it wouldnt surprise me to learn that he has acted in a covert manner in this issue. Again it seems that Ajarn Brahm will do what he wants to do irrespective of other people.

Yes it is interesting to see jet-setting 'forest monks'. Many of the so-called forest monks jet around the world at great expense.

To the OP Would Phils last name begin with a C by any chance?

Sorry, don't know Phil's last name. Get him to pm maybe?

There are 10 events which happened to the Buddha which could be described as suffering. Some, from memory

1. The Buddha suffered abdominal pains

2. Devadatta tried to assassinate the Buddha by pushing a boulder off a cliff. It missed, but the Buddha's foot was hit and bled.

3. The Buddha was slandered by a rival sect saying he had made a woman pregnant.

etc

All these are explained away in later works such as the Milandapanha and commentaries. In the Milandapanha the monk Nagasena is ask various sticly questions by King Milinda and he replies by saying not everything that happens is due to the effects of kamma. I can't remember the details but some things are said to arise to physical causes like a rock falling, some illness are due to physical causes too - presence of wind in food etc.

There is an interesting academic article about this by Jonathan Walters with a title something like "the Buddha's Bad Kamma".

Yes. Thanks for all the replies. Some good points there.

I don't have his email or other contact details, so I would have to tell him when I see him. Before I told him something minor about her past and told him not to tell her but he couldn't resist and asked her about it. Then they were acusing me of giving away secrets.

So if I tell him when I am with him, he will then immediately go and confront her about it and I will be caught out.

It is also amazing how all the family members stick together and cover up things. Even her kids. She is in her 40s too. Has 4 kids with eldest about 22. So no spring chicken. He could have got a much younger girlfriend, but prefers them more mature.

Who knows what my wife gets up to while I am away. No way of telling really.

Maybe he is reading this forum, but I doubt it. Just in case, his name is Phil and hers is May. I can confirm other details via pm if you think it may be you.

Hi

My wife's aunty is 2 timing a bloke from England. She has a Thai boyfried who goes away when the English man comes over. She also has another Aussie man who she looks after, but I am not sure if there is a sexual relationship there.

I have only met the English guy once, before the Thai man come on the scene, and he is a nice guy who has been burned before. I want to let him know at least, but all hel_l will break lose if they find out it was me.

Would you tell?

(if you are an english plumber who goes to Thailand you had better get your pipes checked)

What do you think the Buddha would have thought about a religion such as Soka Gakkai?

Wonder what the merchants do with the hair?

Make wigs maybe?

Probably taking back his own stuff.

In Sydney I was at a Thai temple once and there was a fat Sri Lankan monk present. All the monks were sitting on the floor eating, but he was on the end sitting in a chair and portable table - obviously was unable to sit on the ground.

Also my Thai friend known as 'the fat man' was able to ordain even though he could not kneel down during the ceremony. I missed it, but hear that he made so sort of attempt at bending over and that was acceptable.

That's not the case I'm afraid. In Theravada such rules are as written in stone.

Such rules concerning ordination requirements may be set i stone, but they can be conveniently ignored when convenient. There is a rule that those with debt cannot ordain, yet many monks have debts. I myself ordained with debts. Also there is a requirement to have your parents permission, but this is also largely disregarded - it is assumed no parent would reject to this.

The SRi Lankans will probably make a fuss over it.

It is interesting to note that there are no monks in Japan and haven't been any for hundreds of years. ie no Bhikkhu or Bhikshu fully ordains according to vinaya. It seems the die out started as early as the founding of the Tendai sect, around 8th century from memory. Saicho and his followers wanted to do away with vinaya ordination which was control by powerful temples in Nara. So they introduced ordination solely by taking the Bodhisattva precepts.

These days the "monks" are actually priests who are usually married and pass their temple down to their sons.

Soka Gakkai is a major "old new religion", a break away of the Nichiren sect - but their teachings are that you can be reborn in the pure land by reciting the name of a book. Namyo Hoorengekyou - hail the Lotus Sutra. Far removed from the teachings of the BUddha.

who cares?

I think that the Thai Sangha won't allow women to ordain because they think the ordination had died out and cannot be revived. That is the 'way it is' and they like to keep it that way. Luckily not every Thai monk thinks like that and things are slowly changing. There are no over 30 fully ordained Bhikkhuni in Thailand and more on the way.

Incidently, I know of a young girl who had a sexual affair with an abortion doctor. She became pregnant and he performed the abortion of his own child. both were 'buddhists'

Are Buddhists against abortion or not ?

Many Buddhists are for abortion. There can be no question about that as it is so frequently done by so many Buddhists.

But the teachings of the Buddha against abortion since it is killing. see, for example, the first parajika rules of the monks. A monk who suggests or encourages an abortion is guilty of this offence and is no longer fit to be a monk.

There is also a book on the subject of abortion in Thailand, which I have, but haven't read yet.

Abortion, Sin and the State in Thailand

Andrea Whittaker 2004

Wrong assumption in the OP.

Buddhism in Thailand is not a religion.

A religion assumes the worship of a deity or the belief in the supernatural. Buddhism in Thailand is simply a secular philosophy which is atheistic. It has the trappings of religion (temples, ceremonies, etc.), but at its core is the opposite of religion. As a belief system, it's really closer to the secular "isms" (humanism, hedonism, materialism, etc.)

Perhaps it's this absence of a deity which results in its adherents so weakly following the precepts of Buddha. There is no real accountability in daily life for one's actions. Only social pressure. Hence, Thailand has a deplorable reputation for respect for the individual, fair and empathetic treatment of others (especially strangers), corruption at all levels, and many more core problems which reflect the reality of skewed values in the practice of daily life.

Thai Buddhism is even facing a crisis of values and practice at its core--the behavior and morality of its monkhood. Corruption and malpractice within the temple system is rife. Thai social amorality has influenced Thai Buddhism, not the other way around.

To compound the situation of weak accountability for one's actions, there is the system of "making merit" where you can wipe your dirty slate clean at any time by tossing a few baht in a coffer or feeding breakfast to the monks. This is an additional unfortunate facade of a religious system--indulgences of the middle ages--which also contributed to rampant corruption and social injustice in the society of that time.

Thailand is politically on the brink of becoming a failed state. Societal security is hanging by a thread given the brewing war between social classes. Thai Buddhism is not holding it together. Rather it's contributing to the fragility of the entire social/political system.

I disagree. Buddhism in Thailand is a religion. There are 'priests' and temples everwhere. The priests do rituals for the material and spiritual benefit of the laity. Their are also gods. Look at all the 'hindu' gods worshipped by Buddhists. Nowdays there is also Kwan-yin too. Not to mention the worship ofBuddha statues. There is one Buddha statue in Ayyuthaya where worshipers can obtain luck for business. What about all the offerings done to statues. very similar to Brahmanism. very idolstrous I think. Then there is the local spirits too. Worshiped by most Thai buddhists.

Some Thai's conception of the Buddha is very similar to that of some christian concepts of god. The Buddha can grant wishes - success in exams, or help others or do any sort of miracles.

Buddhism in Thailand is very different to the western imagination of Buddhism - and very different to what the Buddha taught. I would even say Buddhism isn't the teachings of the Buddha - no more than Christianity is the teaching of the Christ. The Buddha wasn't a Buddhist.

I think maybe 'collect alms' may be a better phrase for 'bindabaat'.

However, monks around my area certianly do 'beg'. I am frequently asked to buy things for them - pepsi, pens, books. cigarettes etc. Asked for money too. With nothing in return - except maybe "merit" if you believe that.

Bankei