fruittbatt

To get back on the topic...

I posted previously that most workers in farang-frequented bars in Thailand insist on condom use. Other posters pointed out correctly that this does not mean that the same practices and knowledge applies in bars where the customers are primarily Thai or Burmese men. However, I do know that at least one Thai sex-worker advocacy group distributes condoms and regularly spends time with the sex-workers in these bars. I assume that this informal peer education and friendship is helpful to the women who work in these bars.

The UN report also notes that many attempts to regulate the sex industry have unfortunate consequences. This is quite true. In the case of Vietnam, women who are sex-workers face jail terms and rehabilitation programs which teach them to do "honest" work. It is important to know that "honest" usually means underpaid and menial jobs such as working in a shoe factory or learning to sew for a multi-national mega-profitable sweat shop. This is totally exploitative of women's labour and is opportunistic punitive regulation at its worst. Women who have worked as sex-workers are often further "punished" in jails by sadistic staff. A friend spoke recently with a group of Vietnamese sex workers who reported being raped in jail, having finger-tips cut off, and being beaten.

Certainly laws which sanction such archaic and sadistic abuse need to be changed. However, de-regulation would seem to be a better option than legalisation, since legalisation allows for strict policing and so encourages the growth of a black market for sex when sex-workers are not allowed to work in "legal" houses.

Sorry but I don't agree with you. Condom usage in some sectors of the Farang/Thai market is rare and not the norm and I can prove it. I'll PM you if you like but will not discuss the specifics in an open forum.

However that said everything else you said is accurate. De regulation would seem to be a better option.

I don't understand why relevant information has to be kept under wraps unless it implicates powerful people. You can PM me the info if it is dangerous to share it publicly. Otherwise, please share with everyone, as it is relevant to the topic.

" Steele Joe, I am not disputing your analysis. There are certainly many types of bars, some catering to the poorest paid Burmese workers, some to farang or Thai or Japanese executives. But I do wonder if you have any statistics or insider knowledge to back your claim that the large majority of Thai sex-workers suffer injustice and inhumanity. Could you elaborate, please?"

I didn't make any such claim. I spoke of a very broad spectrum that ranges from inhumane and unjust to reltively benign and victimless. I pointed out that the version that most Farangs see, and keep referring to on this thread as if it were the universal experience of sex workers here quite simply is not.

It would be difficult to quantify such things even I had the sort of figures at hand that I once did (I suppose I could look when I return and see) and my insider knowledge is not inconsiderable but rather out of date, but I haven't attempted here to conjecture as to how many sex workers are in each strata as so on. I can however say that it is a small minority that caters to the Western clientele.

By the way, not to nitpick but I think it's important as it seems to be an indication of what I'm talking about: you keep talking about "bars". Lots of sex workers are not in bars. Many of them are in places that range from somewhat worse to much worse than a bar.

EDIT TO ADD:

I'll venture this: It's safe to say that the very worst experience (slavery and attendant violence) is shared by relatively few sex workers (but the key word is "relatively"). And I'd wager that a great number, not necessarily the majority but perhaps, are at least slightly above the median of that spectrum I refer to.

You may be right, but without some relevant and recent figures, I can neither agree nor disagree. Regarding the use of the word "bars", this is a convenient shorthand commonly used in Thailand to describe any brothel whether alcohol is served or not.

"I cannot consider the 'Norm' here as being prostitution.

A fellow sees a woman he likes and they chat for a while - no money is discussed. If he wants to sleep with her, she may ask 'what will you give me? "

This is not the "norm" here.

So many people on this thread (perhaps virtually everyone) talks about the Thai sex industry as if it's confined to what they see on Sukhumvit Rd or in South Pattaya. (And indeed focus on the most ideal but certainly not universal versions of what goes on in those places).

The Thai sex industry is huge, multi-faceted, and heirarchial. To put it very simply (and simplistically): there is a level (like anywhere) that is for extremely high end consumers and it's all, for the most part, nice and shiny and no arguably no real harm done. There is a level that is horribly inhumane and unjust. The level that caters to most Farangs is above the median on that spectrum -- not at the very top but certainly far, far higher than the bottom and often in many ways different and more benign -- even positive -- than much of what caters to Thais. (Fun and relaxed interaction with customer. Choice of customers. Comfortable surroundings that are often far nicer than a person of his/her socio-economic status would enjoy. Travel and relatively exotic experiences. And so on...)

But not all Thai sex workers have that sort of experience. In fact only a small portion do.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

Steele Joe, I am not disputing your analysis. There are certainly many types of bars, some catering to the poorest paid Burmese workers, some to farang or Thai or Japanese executives. But I do wonder if you have any statistics or insider knowledge to back your claim that the large majority of Thai sex-workers suffer injustice and inhumanity. Could you elaborate, please?

To get back on the topic...

I posted previously that most workers in farang-frequented bars in Thailand insist on condom use. Other posters pointed out correctly that this does not mean that the same practices and knowledge applies in bars where the customers are primarily Thai or Burmese men. However, I do know that at least one Thai sex-worker advocacy group distributes condoms and regularly spends time with the sex-workers in these bars. I assume that this informal peer education and friendship is helpful to the women who work in these bars.

The UN report also notes that many attempts to regulate the sex industry have unfortunate consequences. This is quite true. In the case of Vietnam, women who are sex-workers face jail terms and rehabilitation programs which teach them to do "honest" work. It is important to know that "honest" usually means underpaid and menial jobs such as working in a shoe factory or learning to sew for a multi-national mega-profitable sweat shop. This is totally exploitative of women's labour and is opportunistic punitive regulation at its worst. Women who have worked as sex-workers are often further "punished" in jails by sadistic staff. A friend spoke recently with a group of Vietnamese sex workers who reported being raped in jail, having finger-tips cut off, and being beaten.

Certainly laws which sanction such archaic and sadistic abuse need to be changed. However, de-regulation would seem to be a better option than legalisation, since legalisation allows for strict policing and so encourages the growth of a black market for sex when sex-workers are not allowed to work in "legal" houses.

I think the majority of prostitutes in Thailand are very sensible regarding them not having unprotected sex with clients, and I also think the prostitute’s western customers are also very educated and are aware of HIV and all the other STD’s that you can receive / give by having unprotected sex.

I agree, Jim, having had some contact with the sex-worker organisation "Empower" in Chiang Mai. Empower advocates on behalf of sex-workers and does excellent work teaching women English, training them in bar and computer skills at their very own "Can-do" bar in Chiang Mai Land, and providing plenty of support and peer education in matters such as sexual health and safe practices. Perhaps most importantly, they support women to develop self-esteem by being proud of the work they do, not injured by the stigma which has traditionally adhered to the notion of "prostitution". Women are also proud to refer to themselves as "whores" - owning the very term that has been used frequently to tar them with pariah status.

Another interesting observation by some posters is that sex-work should be legalised so that it can be better policed! This suggests that it is sex-workers, not their clients who are the major cause of STDs generally and HIV in particular. From my own experience in teaching English to sex-workers in Thailand several years ago, I can assure posters that the large majority of women in a (farang-frequented) bar refused to have unprotected sex even when a foreign client offered them big bucks to do so.

Part of the reason that sex work was legalised in countries such as Australia and New Zealand was to stop corrupt police and underworld elements from collecting bribes from Madams each week. Another reason was -ostensibly - to police the industry by regular health checks. While both these aims are laudable, there are also intrinsic problems with legalisation. The first is that women who are infected will put themselves and their clients at further risk by freelancing in dark streets which are cruising spots for clients in cars. The second is that women who are addicted to drugs or alcohol will be excluded from "legal" houses, and will also work illegally, increasing the risk of spreading Hepatitis B or C, and putting themselves at risk as well. Needless to say, the "black market" is still fraught with corruption. Pimps exploit the most vulnerable street sex workers, while Madams still operate illegal houses, occasionally with women who have been brought from poor countries in the region with the promise of a job. No doubt some of these women are well aware of the nature of the work they are expected to do, but the point is that they are not in control of the exploitative terms of the contract/loan repayment which is imposed on them.

So, legalisation is not the whole solution for Thailand or anywhere else in the world.

Hehhehheh Payboy. But why not hire a leaky cruise ship to give all gossiping farang a nice little holiday to Australia? If the sharks don't get 'em the government surely will. Hello Nauru Detention Centre.

_{Swazi Bird,}

_{you have certainly gone out of your way to explain and reassure me regarding the context of this dining group's discussion. I respect your peace-making efforts and your patience. The problem is that I had heard the myths that were circulating about the "thieving workers from Burma" from two sources before I was informed that my maid had been labelled unjustly in the same way. I have done all I reasonably could to contain and debunk these lies in person. In fact I tried to pre-empt possible gossip by informing your friend in the dining group of the facts before my overseas trip.}

_{I saw no option but to go public to try to inform persons living both here and abroad that their allegations were incorrect and slanderous. Quite frankly it was a cowardly act for people to perpetrate rumors about my maid rather than to approach me to ask the facts - as only one man did ;-)}

_{Although you claim that the dining group was discreet and honorable, this does not explain why NancyL in her post saw fit to speculate as to why the maid may have left another employer (or was dismissed as it was stated). NancyL framed this statement in the context of "}Also, we know of expats who have had other trusted Burmese employees steal from them once they've decided it's time to return to Burma."

A revealing slip indeed.

It is not the reputation of the dining group that is at issue here but the slanderous stereotyping of refugee workers from Burma by persons within the expat community here and abroad. I was hoping that this post would elicit some counter information praising the hard work of these refugees. It has. For that I am grateful.

Rest assured that I have absolutely no problem with individuals of your dining group. They may be senior, relatively privileged, farang, and even somewhat idle, but aren't we all? The problem stems from the pre-existing fear-mongering and slanderous allegations that members of group bought into, as evidenced in several posts on this topic.

heheheh this post sure did morph. I am one of those idle, old , farangs but most of the idle crowd I hang with cannot afford a maid. The intension of the OP where probably in the right place but the way she went about this just turned to you know what. I guess the best way not to spread rumors about Burmese workers is not to post stories such as this on a forum.

There is wisdom in your words, Moe. It was an error of judgment to expect any serious discussion of the moral issues at stake on a forum like this. And I now realise that using rhetorical language to describe a real problem just confuses people. Live and learn! I should just stick to nice safe comfortable things like where to get the best brazilian wax, or fish and chips.

I realize this thread is about to die a deserved natural death, but I feel I should point out that I've found the best way to counter "gossip" and "rumour" is not to start with name calling. It's much kinder to think of those people as simply "mis-informed".

When I've encountered mis-information (often from the same group), I've found it much more beneficial to approach the first person who makes contact (in this case a long-time CM resident returning to his home country) and explain the facts. (If it's someone spreading misinformation about a broader topics, like Americans, I can email web sources to them.). I point out they are simply mis-informed and suggest they contact whomever told them the lies. I also ask they contact anyone they may have talked to when they were mis-informed.

I don't use words like "spreading gossip", "lying" or "idle, rich white guys with nothing better to do" when I try to correct mis-information with my source of information.

And, I probably wouldn't go on a public internet forum to try to correct the mis-information.

Personally, I like to think some people are simply mis-informed and not idle, rich, old white guys wagging their tongues about other people's maids. Believe me, they can swap much more interesting stories about the sex lives their friends have with Thai people.

I am not a sycophant. I do not mince words, euphemize, nor apologise for the behaviour of some the more privileged people in our community. Nor do I take dismiss misleading or slanderous allegations against the most vulnerable sections of society as merely "mis-information". As I have already explained the following points which you chose to ignore in your reply, I will re-state them.

The insidious lies out there were not limited to the dining group. In fact that group was simply drawing on existing myths about the intentions of Burmese peoples and amplifying them and then applying them to an individual (my maid).

I did assure the chap who approached me that this gossip about my maid was wrong. At the time I was too busy as well as shocked and disgusted to deal with this issue more fully. Since the man concerned is also very busy before leaving Thailand, it seemed pointless to discuss the matter further with him. Especially as I had previously explained to another man in this dining group my reasons for letting my maid go, so he already knew the truth of the matter. Why then, did the group see fit to broadcast more damaging lies?

Since there has been little consideration of the real moral issues at stake in this topic, I cannot see any point in continuing to repeat myself ad nauseum. Sorry, I don't do fluffy or nicey-poo with any grace whatsoever!

I don't think the gentlemen involved were slandering all members of a specific ethnic group. One of the gentleman was simply concerned about a specific maid because he was considering hiring her. Nor should these men be characterized as "a bunch of idle, comparatively rich, fearful farang spreading slander against this marginalised, disadvantaged group." as was done in the frentic, over-the-top OP. It's no wonder so many people thought it a troll post, because it was such an over-reaction to someone asking a reasonable question about a potential employee.

These men are hardly fearful and I doubt most would characterize themselves are rich and idle. Talk about slandering one specific group!

And don't get me going on using the "F-word" to describe these poor guys. In my mind it's like black people using the "N-word" to describe themselves.

(There it is -- I'm taking on the cause of old, white guys who are subject to repeated attacks on their character, hobbies and topics of discussion. We all have a favorite cause, don't we?)

Judging by most responses on this topic to date I am quite sure the majority of COMPARATIVELY rich ...ok...SENIOR ...FARANGS on this forum would totally agree with you. I am also part "F" and part "N" and proud of it!

As for causes...well, I refuse to sanitize an important moral issue by referring to it so slightingly. But your post is most enlightening.

Tin Foil Hat,

Thanks for your clarification. Your earlier post did not read as sympathetic to me but I do appreciate that you have explained. I also agree about the miserable gits.

Yes, certainly, dealing with such a situation face-to-face and calmly is a better way to go, but as you can see from NancyL's post the racist rumors are alive and well and far beyond the point where I can counter them one-on-one. Unfortunately.

Why did the fruittbatt let her maid go when she was only away for less then two months and not keep the job open for the maid on return from the trip, even if the maid was not paid during the fruitbatts absence, if she was such an excellent worker and impeccably honest as the fruitbatt claims?

Over to you, fruittbatt.

I think this was the key reason the guys were talking. The reasons given for terminating such a valuable employee were vague or unknown to the group. Most others would have paid the woman for the time they were gone, asking her to check in on their unit from time-to-time for water damage since the building in question is well-known to have leaking windows. I believe, too, that another employer had recently terminated their relationship with this woman also -- again for unknown reasons. Also, we know of expats who have had other trusted Burmese employees steal from them once they've decided it's time to return to Burma.

One can hardly fault the man who came to you, Fruittbatt, because he was considering employing this woman. Perhaps you should have written a character reference for her before you fired her.

Nancy: let me clarify a few points.

Number one:

I have already stated my reasons for deciding to let the maid go to others who were positively clamoring to employ her because of her sterling reputation. I did not fire the maid at all but explained that because we were likely to be absent for long periods in the next six months, she might as well take up the offers of permanent work which she had received. One of my friends was actually wanting to employ the maid for an extra day each week, so I knew she would not miss out on work.

Number two:

It is absolutely no one else's business whether I employ someone to clean my place or not, so the speculation which followed my decision was - quite simply - idle gossip. In this regard, I had already informed two people - one of whom is a man in the dining group - that I had decided to do my own housework DESPITE my maid's excellent work. So, relevant people already KNEW that this girl had done nothing wrong.

Why, then, the malicious suggestions about an innocent person? I can only put this down to the existence of unfounded rumours about workers from Burma.

Number three: just because there are unsound rumors circulating it is totally unjustified and downright racist to stereotype "all" Burmese workers as potential thieves. Why not make an effort to find out the facts before shooting one's mouth off?

Number Four: the gentleman who actually had the guts to ask whether the rumour was true is hardly likely to have employed my maid as he has sold his condo and is repatriating....as you well know.

One person said something to the OP and that constitues older farangs in the North spreading false rumours? The OP needs to get out more.

No. Wrong. One person gave me this first-hand information but the slandering of my maid came from several older farangs. Only one of these people had the courage to ask me whether these allegations were true, so I was able to put them straight. Unfortunately other people (the ones who actually DO need to get out more) have now spread this crap before it could be contained.

When you heard these vile rumors at a dinner party did you call the fool on his racist speech or did you sit there and nod your head. Calling people out in public is how you stop such stupidity not posting on some forum were the people here didn't hear it and most really do not care or associate with such foolish people

You are assuming I attended this dinner. I didn't. In fact it is a men's only (not gay...and no, I am not homophobic) group where this speeech was made. I was informed by one of the persons who attended. Had I been there I would have dealt within that context.

ah, hearsay.

no, information from a reliable first-hand source. Flaming rather than addressing the issues raised is really punching below the belt, don't you think?

When you heard these vile rumors at a dinner party did you call the fool on his racist speech or did you sit there and nod your head. Calling people out in public is how you stop such stupidity not posting on some forum were the people here didn't hear it and most really do not care or associate with such foolish people

You are assuming I attended this dinner. I didn't. In fact it is a men's only (not gay...and no, I am not homophobic) group where this speeech was made. I was informed by one of the persons who attended. Had I been there I would have dealt within that context.

The OP's statment: "Burmese" (by which they mean people from Burma regardless of their ethnicity) and the use of the term "Burmese" throughout this thread shows a complete non-understanding of the issues. The Burmese are about as far from being a homogeneous ethnic group as can be imagined and making sweeping generalisations about such a group that ignore the issue of "ethnicity" is utter nonsense.

Yes, maybe a few opportunistic Burmans have headed back to Rangoon, but the vast majority of displaced people in Northern Thailand are from Shan, Kachin and Karen State and are unlikely to be going anywhere anytime soon. Whilst Suu Kyi takes her smile to Washington and Thein Sein makes placatory remarks in Naypyidaw the AK47s are still rattling away in the Northern Shan and Kachin states despite the so called ceasefires. And the deluge of drugs flooding into Thailand continues un-abated too, which says a lot about the state of society north of the border.

Among my Shan friends, many now have passports and have made the trip home. They've all come back with one message and it's not pretty.

In my view Burma's real problems have yet to begin, the task of reconciling the countries ethnic minorities who basically hate each other is not going to be easy and the only realistic solution will be some form of separation. Things may well get much worse before they get better; take Yugoslavia as an example from recent history.

Ironically, there is a shred of truth in the OPs allegation. There is plenty of stealing going on in Chiang Mai who's proceeds finish up in Burma. But. the perpetrators are Thai youth as well as aliens and they are all doing it to feed their yaabaa and gambling habits.

I was interested to read your thoughts on the future of Burma but evidently you did not pick up the fact that my use of quotation marks around "Burmese" indicates irony. I am acutely aware of the significance of ethnic difference among peoples of Burma. A quick glance at the news re the plight of Kachins and Rohinga (?sp) is enough to highlight the real tensions and differences that exist.

I have met both Mr. & Mrs. Fruitbatt and can assure they are not the type of people who would take the time to troll. They have become aware of something they feel to be a real instance/occurance/cause and have expressed an opinion. Everyone does have the right to accept or reject this view.

But Fruitbatt, let me suggest that when you experience a feeling like this, and feel the need to make a post on TV about it, please check that it is not a slow posting week end.

I sincerely feel should JC himself , walk down Thaepae Road, we have those who would start a debate about Him walking on the wrong side of the street, or going to the wrong gate.

I will say, as per my feelings gained from 25 years here, that I do find the Burmese/Shan people to be much harder working people than the local Thai. Having said that, I attribute that to their circumstance. They are displaced and trying to make a niche for themselves in a different world/place. The locals, are, well, locals and already have their place, thus do not have to struggle with the difficulties faced by the Burmese. I would also agree with the poster who said something to the effect that if there is such a rumor afoot, he has heard much more complaining from the Thai, than the farang , re the Burmese.

OMHO

G

Many thanks for your kind words, Gonzo, I completely agree with your analysis of why displaced Shan/Lisu/other Burmese often work harder.

Yes, some Thais (including teachers) do indulge in racist talk about Burmese, but I was surprised and disgusted that a number of farangs had regurgitated the same attitudes. When they started to claim "evidence" for their prejudices by slandering my former maid, I knew I had to speak up to try to dispel this nonsense before it went any further.

Who is spreading a vicious myth around the expat community in Chiang Mai regarding people from Burma who reside in Northern Thailand and who brought it to the fruittbatt`s attention? Who’s making the allegations and how does this tale relate to the batt as she describes?

Why did the fruittbatt let her maid go when she was only away for less then two months and not keep the job open for the maid on return from the trip, even if the maid was not paid during the fruitbatts absence, if she was such an excellent worker and impeccably honest as the fruitbatt claims?

Over to you, fruittbatt.

With respect, the issue here is not to question my motives. I have already explained that my maid is in great demand among the farang community, In fact, she has more work offered to her than she has hours to do it! I am often absent from Thailand and have a fairly small place that is easy for my husband, daughter, and self to clean without help. Does that satisfy your curiosity?

Where does this secret society of older Farangs meet?, to spread these

rumors,and how does it benefit them? as I have never heard anything.!!

In a few years time I can see the tables been turned,as migrants will be

moving to Burma looking for employment.

Regards Worgeordie

I do know the identity of individuals who spread some of this crap, and I also know that one person saw fit to broadcast his bigoted views to a whole dining group. Enough said.

Like you, Worgeordie, I really hope that things improve in Burma to the point where refugees might consider repatriating, but it won't happen overnight, and it is certainly not a cause for alarm like these farangs are suggesting it is.

The Op is actually spreading the rumors with this crap post.

Only to show that the rumour is quite false, or didn't you quite get that point?

I can assure you that this was never intended as a "troll" topic, as some have suggested here.

My point is simply to alert TV readers that an insidious rumour is out there - which is slandering some hard-working people from Burma who do not deserve to be labelled negatively. In fact, in the case of my former maid, I have never met a more honest and hard-working person.

I also hope that putting this defence of disadvantaged people out into the public arena may just shame the (YES) older retired Farangs who have nothing better to do than to spread gossip without knowing the facts.

It has been brought to my attention that a particularly vicious myth is being spread around the expat community in Chiang Mai regarding people from Burma who reside in Northern Thailand.

The gist of this paranoid tale, as it was related to me, is that all "Burmese" (by which they mean people from Burma regardless of their ethnicity) are now returning to their birth country and "taking everything they can lay their hands on".

This is a truly disgusting allegation, particularly as the people targeted cannot defend themselves against such rubbish. Most ethnic groups from Burma are extremely poor. They are often deprived of even the most basic rights to education, health care, and a fair wage in this country. And here is a bunch of idle, comparatively rich, fearful farang spreading slander against this marginalised, disadvantaged group.

This story also has personal resonance. About two months ago I was planning an extended holiday abroad. Since I would be locking up my place for an extended period I decided that I did not really need to employ my maid from Burma during that time. I did not want her to miss the opportunity of permanent employment with someone else as she is in great demand, being an excellent worker and impeccably honest. So it was with great regret that my husband and I decided to let her go. We had never really felt comfortable about having someone do work which we are quite capable of doing ourselves, and we also needed to conserve costs at this time given the financial squeeze.

On my return, I was approached by a person in my Condominium asking whether it was true that I had dismissed my maid for "bad reasons". I assured him this was certainly not the case, and that the maid in question has great integrity as well as being a very hard worker.

So, I am posting this in the hope of laying to rest the insidious rumours about a group which has been slandered by some toxic farangs in our community. May I suggest that these people could devote their time to more wholesome activities. Perhaps some could even teach "the Burmese" English?

my apologies to anyone who was offended by the use of the word "whore". I do not use the word prejudiciously, but advisedly. The women at "Empower" Foundation are proud to refer to refer to themselves as whores, rather than the rather prissy term "sex-worker". Whore to me signifies being hardcore, loud and proud about one's work. A close female relative of mine is a whore and insists on being referred to as such.

Booked our online appointment for retirement visa extension back in October. The booking system is (or was) straightforward, and the service was fast and simple at our interview today. In previous years there were a couple of officious old stooges who used to fret over any tiny anomaly (like the WIFE holding the bank account!). Our Immigration Officer today was urbane, cool, and incredibly efficient. Well done, Chiang Mai Immigration.