fruittbatt

Outside the burning months the pollution here is not bad and in the winter the air is usually very clear and fresh.

In the most heavily touristed areas the air quality is always poor due to exhaust fumes

The air quality compares favourably with many Asian cities most of the time.

that claim is not substantiated nor is it a recommendation in itself

Burning is an issue across the region - look at how Indonesian practices effect Singapore and Malaysia. Yes things could be better but that is true about most aspects of life anywhere in the world.

The more people bang on about how polluted CM is the less people are likely to visit and the harder it is for people, both Thai and farang to stay in business. This harms and damages Chiang Mai so stop bleating on about it.

the greater the pollution, the less attractive the city is to both residents and tourists, surely? I can't see how keeping our heads firmly jammed in the sand or other unsayable places will help business or the environment. It is in the interests of businesses to lead any clean-up campaign!

The comparative world/city status of Chiang Mai's pollutedness seems less relevant than the question of what we can do to help clean up the air.

As Lannarebirth has said, doing everything in our power to prevent burning of rubbish is a start. One woman I know explains in Thai the dangers of rubbish burning and suggests alternative means of disposal to her neighbours and others....resulting in less burning.

Boycotting tuktuks seems to be another alternative. IMHO the tuks belch more fumes than songthaews and are noise-pollutants also. People slam songthaews, and it is true there are some sad wrecks plying the roads every day, but at least they have the capacity to carry more passengers, so are potentially more energy-efficient as transport than tuks.

Lately I have noticed that when I visit Tha Pae Rd, Night Bazaar area, my eyes always smart and my throat gets very tight and sore. The high volume of traffic on relatively narrow streets seems a real issue here. The idea of turning Chang Klan into a walking street at night between eg 7 and 10.30pm seems to make good sense.

I wonder whether there is any "urban plan" to deal with the problems of traffic and domestic pollution in CM? Would any of the wise old CM hands care to enlighten the rest of us about what has been done previously?

Hello everyone.

My wife and I are now in KL,Malaysia checking on the facts about relocating to Malaysia under their "Second Home" program. We went to the gov. agency that handles this program and a few things have changed. I heard this from the horses' mouth...there is no limit on the amount of properties you are allowed to buy, but your properties must be over RM 250,000 (about USD 72,000).

We are still trying to decide if (althought we might have no choice)we want to leave Thailand, but I can tell you that from the houses and apartments we have viewed KL is a lot better than (and cleaner) Thailand.

Interesting...we just did a "fact-finding" recce to Malaysia, too: Penang and KL.

Yes, you can own more than one property (worth 250,000MYR or more nett). I met an Australian couple who have just bought another three in addition to the restored property they have in Penang.

For anyone else considering the move, here are a few personal observations, not "facts". The positives I noted are:

Rental accommodation, food, services are all just slightly more expensive than in Thailand (probably about 5%). Most people, regardless of ethnicity, speak at least some English. You can buy excellent coffee though at western prices. There appears to be more logical planning for industry, urban extensions etc....the provisions of MM2H are a good example of this. Transport systems are integrated and excellent and internet servcices are very fast. The country is technologically sophisticated. Traffic is orderly and predictable.

Negatives:

food is mainly Indian or Chinese. Thai food is so much more multi-dimensional and interesting IMHO. Movies, news stories seem to uphold particular religious and nationalist values to the point of being overtly propagandist. The two-tier pricing system is applied ruthlessly (nothing new there except the discrepancy seems bigger than in Thailand). Somehow the logic, the cleanliness, the order, the clinical qualities are rather boring after the little surprises Thailand springs.

Decision:

none yet. Initial financial requirements for retirement are not too different between Thailand (800,000 baht for farang couple retired...apparently) and Malaysia (150,000 MYR invested for a year before any withdrawal can be made for approved purposes). Both countries offer lousy interest rates on fixed deposits, so there is no incentive to invest long-term. Any decision we make will be on the basis of which government (if either) offers us greater security in terms of "residence". So far, Malaysia wins on that score, with its renewable 10 year, multiple entry "visit pass"...which is the same thing as a visa.

Today my husband, self, and several other anxious retiree farangs fronted Immigration in Chiang Mai to seek further details of the changes outlined in this thread.

All Immigration officials claimed there had been "no changes", and that income requirements would remain the same as for the past year until further notice. In other words, 800,000 baht is sufficient income to cover both spouses AT THE MOMENT and for some indeterminate period until the police order takes effect and CM is "notified" by Bangkok. A phone call to Bangkok Immigration confirmed this statement by the 2IC in CM.

The worrying aspect for many is that we do NOT know when things will change and whether the changes will be applied retrospectively from September 1.

It would be refreshing to get some sort of policy explanation from the government as to why they have introduced this new measure at this stage without any warning but in its absence I suppose the scarcely repressed hysteria explicit in this thread is likely to persist.

All that has been introduced is a relatively modest refinement to the requirements governing retirees and their foreign spouses.I shouldn't imagine for one moment that those in that category will be greatly affected, apart from the logistical inconvenience brought on by the inept short notice of its introduction, since by definition they are probably long term expatriates of whatever kind enjoying realistic incomes and not fragile pensioners hanging on by their fingernails.

Nevertheless, posters from all quarters are divining some sort of nationalistic conspiracy mounted by the Thai in an attempt to rid themselves of the evil farang. Quite potty really, particularly when one considers that what passes for a government is in fact a loose collection of vested interests jockeying for position united in one purpose, and one purpose only, the protection of those interests. Frankly,they are incapable of structuring a coherent policy on anything very much least of all some sort of financial purge aimed at a bunch of expats wittering on about how they have been such dutiful guests and consequently are deserving of much better treatment.

The paranoid may well see this as the writing on the wall but to anyone else with any perspective it's just another step on the way and one to be negotiated realistically.

Doubling the financial requirements for a couple's retirement visa is hardly a "modest refinement", especially in terms of Thai wages, cost of living here and so on. Bend your imagination for a moment, if you will, to consider why many foreign retirees have chosen to live in Thailand. The principal reason is probably their ability to live well and cheaply in a congenial country, rather than scratching out a living in their home countries and working until they are 70-75. Many have invested modest savings, given themselves an annual "salary" to cover the cost of living in Thailand, and planned their financial lives so that they can live here for the duration. These people's money feeds all sorts of Thai businesses and contributes to employment here. Landlords, condo management, restaurants, small shops, food courts, laundries, maid services, transport operators to name a few.

It should be quite obvious from what has already been written in this thread that many people are affected to the point that they will have to seek cheaper host countries. You might spare a compassionate thought for their dilemma...upheaval, loss of assets, physical effort of moving countries at an advanced age, their emotional investment in a country they now realise values them only as disposable commodities. Your supercilious attitude is a further slap in the face to those affected by these laws. Shame!

Thanks for the info, Donna. I'll try not to think too hard about the "breast vise" and other tortures....grit the teeth and think of the coffee and shopping in Bangkok after the ordeal, I guess!

There is a yawning discrepancy between the financial requirements for a farang husband-Thai wife, and farang-farang couple retirees. What can be the basis for such inconsistency? It almost seems this is a campaign to encourage more farangs to partner with Thais and to bump their foreign spouses

The new policy will probably prompt emigration of retirees to Malaysia...and will certainly impact negatively on local Thai business.

Thanks for a timely reminder with a healthy slug of humour, SBK.

Who has had a mammogram/MRI/scan for breast cancer in Thailand? And can anyone recommend a particular hospital or clinic which produces clear images and explains results in English?

Hope you have a fast convalescence, CrowBoy! Glad you're not broken in body or spirit.

Nice to hear about the good guys after the pick-up driver's antics.

Great topic, Eek!

Currently ....Julian Barnes' A History of the World in 10 1/2 Chapters dark, hilarious, philosophically big without being ponderous.... And before that E. Annie Proulx's The Shipping News , Heart Songs...and after this Michael Ondaatje's latest Divisadero....

and if you can spin the topic long enough I'll tell you about it.

Agree with McG that UG and his neighbour both have enough good lit to keep me off the streets mostly

HawaiianEyes,

I am so glad that DM's photos have convinced you that the dead guy was in fact Daniel Dubie. I hope this will be a further turning point for you.

Bits of the Dubie jigsaw are falling into place despite much missing and questionable evidence about his life and death. At this stage no further evidence has been unearthed linking Dubie with Karen Modafferi's disappearance - but I guess that was always a long shot.

Certain interested parties in Chiang Mai have been generous with time and information given to Dennis Mahon about the Dubie case. Thanks to all who have responded openly and fearlessly.

I'm going to hijack this thread a little if I may for selfish reasons.....though hopefully other ladies will benefit from any replies received...

Will be in Bkk briefly in 10days or so and intend to hit the shop-spots for the first time in a long time.

Looking for:

* resin earrings or any avant-garde jewellery, preferably by small designers (any Siam Sq boutiques or others that anyone can recommend?)

* 1 pr black Hilfiger leather "ballet" shoes to replace the ones I bought in Siam Sq two years ago....shop does not sell them now:-(

* any small designer fashions (skirts, pants, dresses- Thai sizes are fine) that are cheaper than Fly Now 111 or "It's used to be a closet" in Siam sq. (Not Zara or MNG which are good but mass-produced).

(Keven often has sales but their quality is suss. Soda is interesting...but does anyone have a "secret" favorite they would share with me?)

* excellent hairdresser for style cuts and color (Not Toni and Guy). There is a salon at Emporio I like but any further suggestions?

Any other hints, tips, suggestions will be gratefully received...

I recently bought two pairs of "Heel Care" sandals in attractive (green, purple) colours. Not my usual impractical style but with cushioned sole, good strap support, comfortable and kind to my feet, size 39. The label also says "Denmark" but I imagine they are probably made here. Have seen countless similar brands, in a variety of colors and styles in Central and Robinsons. Good luck.

I met Ms. Crane several times, during the couple of months before she went to jail. She seemed to be a nice person who I was thinking could become a friend as more time passed. However, before that time could pass, she was in jail.

I did visit her, did donate money to her, but the more I read about the story of the two of them, I wasn't sure I could support her, and stopped my help.

However, I also had the experience of supporting a woman in prison for many years, buying her cigs, clothes, food treats, and just money in general to buy whatever she wanted. And visiting her, at great inconvenience to myself, every Friday night, or weekend, for several years. And when when she was released, she never talked to me one time again. And about 20 years have passed, never a thank you, never anything. The father of her child didn't visit her one time in all those years, and I think never gave her any money. Said he was going to pick her up in a limo, and by that time, was having kids with another woman, and he is a quite famous actor in my country and had plenty money to help her with. He is also a friend of mine and hasn't stopped talking to me.

My "friend's" only crime was being a drug addict, but I have never forgotten that no matter how much I did for her, she wanted to forget about it, probably I think because she felt bad about the whole situation in her life and I could remind her of it.

However, after reading things about Ms. Crane and Mr. Dubie, those just weren't people I decided I should help, even though I don't want Ms. Crane to get some serious penality here and think she did the world a favor by getting rid of the guy.

She most diffenitely did us a favor, but from what I have read is guilty of many other things while trying to help that ass, and I'm sorry, but a few years can be excused out of stupidity or something, but 25 years??? At some point it seems she is guilty of somethings, even if she doesn't deserve to be in a Thai prison forever.

I would be happy if she got out with no consequences, however, I am not willing to go to vegetarian restos to bring her the food she likes best, when I don't think she was as kind to victims of her or her b/f. Her b/f seems like the most evil ass on the planet, and just like I would not support the wife of Pol Pot or some other demon, I cannot find it in my hear to help her at this point.

I respect your moral position on support for Jeana/Margaret Crane. You have obviously considered this situation carefully and what you say about prisoners not being grateful is sometimes true. I don't blame them for wanting to forget their time in jail, but it must have been disappointing for you to feel so used by the lady you helped.

The questions of a prisoner's guilt and their gratitude/not is separate from willingness to assist - for me. The old cliche "don't expect anything and you'll never be disappointed" rules here. Nor do I want to play judge - I'm descended from a long string of judges already, including hanging judges !

I have a sense of deja-vu, having debated this issue with Loaded and others in another thread. As a busy person I have no intention of "going there" - explaining the ambiguities of this case - again.

The only thing I will say is that anyone, man or woman, guilty or not, scammer or nice guy, who is in a jail in a foreign country is still a human being with feelings like loneliness, despair, isolation etc. To aid that person with an occasional visit or a useful item does not mean you have to buy into their story or their games.

Here is one site which gives advice to people inside tall buildings during an earthquake.....

http://www.consrv.ca.gov/index/Earthquakes...quakes_what.htm

Magnitude of earthquakes is marked by duration amongst other things. This one lasted maybe 1-2 seconds. If you have comcern about earthquakes in this region, I seriously suggest you make a plan for what you would do if a more serious quake were to occur.

Maybe we could pool our knowledge on this forum to give a few clues to people who may not know what to do?

It is obviously not a good idea for people on high floors to go for the lift, for example.

I have been told that the use of "triangles" is helpful. This means that you don't get under anything that could fall on you but rather try to wedge yourself into spaces between two high objects so that falling debris is more likely to fall on the higher stuff than on your head.

Anyone else?

Guys.

I am pretty sure that I know Fruittbatt personally, and she really is an interesting, intelligent person and all of my buddies like her too. We always ask her to join us at Christmas at the Four Seasons/Sheraton/Holiday Inn because she is such enjoyable company. She is an old timer and really is on our side.

There are some real creeps living here. I would guess that the men she is referring to are real losers that none of us can stand either.

Thanks, Ulysses G, a flattering portrait, but mistaken identity, sadly. Would certainly like to be that lady, though! Cheers.

May I direct the attention of other posters to the other thread on this forum in which a poster is asking people with information re John Onuma, Maggie Crane and Daniel Dubie to pm him?

This is a serious matter involving the disappearance of a young woman in the US. I happen to know that the OP on the other thread is well-motivated and sincere in trying to assist the girl's family to discover what really happened to her.

I apologise to anyone who took offence to my earlier remarks. The comments were certainly not aimed at male posters generally, but were directed at a very FEW posters who never miss an opportunity to take the p*ss or to make unflattering, offensive remarks about farang women on this forum.

In this thread, I support the efforts of those who are seeking information from people out there in Chiang Mai who may be able to help. Please do pm the guy on the other thread if you know anything at all.

Anyone know the status of the murder investigation? Is Margaret Crane in jail awaiting trial in Thailand? Did she manage to get off, or out on bail? Inquiring minds want to know...

I believe Margaret is due for her first hearing in January next year. Yes, she is still in CM women's prison....see Robroy's post above.

I was interested to see two topics posted today on this topic. The other topic has been closed, yet it would seem that the OP was genuine in trying to discover important information. A shame the usual Smart *ss responses have to prevail in every topic which is serious or pertains to women.

I am totally disgusted with a certain die-hard core of male hogs on this forum who try to stifle intelligent debate. you won't get rid of those of us with brains and beauty quite so easily, boys.

On topic again, I can only endorse Hawaiian Eyes' appeal for any further information on a topic which has affected the lives of so many so profoundly.

Great first post, Hua Njai! I hope we will hear much more of your sane, compassionate views.

As a person from a heavily addicted family (alcohol and heroin) spanning two generations, I can only agree completely with your social analysis of how addiction occurs. There may also be genetic pre-disposition to addiction. Research continues to debate that point.

I agree with Neeranam and Steely Dan, that legalisation will help to stop desperate mules/addicts trafficking, even though legalisation will never stop people's craving for escape through alcohol, opioids, amphetamines, consumerism, sex-tourism or whatever other predilections people depend on.

I really do not think that drug users/addicts etc set out to start people off on drugs (This is a bit of a myth), much as pubs don't set out to make people become alcoholics. I work with people with drug and alcohol addiction in the NHS, UK and have many years (15) of experience with these people. I don't like what they do, and hate the way it turns their personality. Saddest of all is watching someone 'clean' start a drug habit. But I have never seen or heard drugs sold or given to someone by force.

I know people on this forum have set ideas and strong feelings on this matter, but people usually start a drugs habit in much the same way people start an alcohol habit....at a party, with a group of friends etc, then it grows, sadly and rapidly out of control. I really dislike it when I read that druggies are worse than murderers or rapists. If this is the case, then publicans in the UK (or anywhere) perhaps can also be classed as such. No, of course they're not...they sell a product that people choose to buy or not, for various reasons (peer pressure, experimentation, weakness of character, whatever) and some become hopeless alcoholics and some don't. Heroin and crack are more addictive, yes, but similarly devestating to the person whose life becomes addicted, and of those around them. That is tragic, but we don't say that publicans are worse than murderers or rapists, do we? And that's because we are all victims of government censorship. We actually believe that drugs are all BAD and that alcohol is OK because we have heard it enough times on the news, from our parents etc.

In fact, they are all substances which allow a person to become chemically adjusted for a short time, and that's that. Difference is, one's legal, and the others aren't. And we know this, so should not be surprised if we get a sentence of some kind if found to be involved with the illicit substances.

Imagine if we (for reasons only explainable by madness) went to live in an alcohol-free country (Muslim states for example), but because we're Western, see no problem with having a drink. Then we get caught, slung in jail there for 50 years or sentenced to death, and in the meantime get treated with torture and the threat of violence or death everyday of that sentence. Fair? We know the answer to that one, but the residents of that country would call us 'scum, worse than murderers or rapists'. That would be ridiculous in our Western eyes, yet people here seem to think it's ok for people whose chemical of choice is different to the legal one (alcohol) to be thought of in those terms. I know there are some evil drugsters out there, as in any sub-section of society and I am certainly not trying to minimise the drug issue.

I agree that anyone committing a crime in a foreign country has to be bound by that country's law, but there is such a thing as humanity. People know the laws when they go there, and the warnings are readily on display. Only someone stupid/greedy for money would commit those crimes there, but, I still believe ALL people deserve to be treated humanely: medical treatment should be available, decent and adequate food, clean water to drink and wash with etc. People here keep saying 'if you can't do the time, don't do the crime'. For heavens sake, the time bit isn't the main issue for prisoners at Bang Kwang etc...it's how they are treated during that time. Torture should be illegal, and people issuing torture should be dealt with in extreme. People who terrorise these captives who are so malnourished and diseased that they couldn't fight back with any conviction if they tried...THEY should be treated like murderers and rapists IMHO.

I know I will be shot down for saying this, but I feel strongly about humanitarian issues. It would be nice if anyone responding to this doesn't just attack me...go for the discussional, yeah?

Regards

The OP's overwhelming urge to help the woman being attacked is great. Congratulations for doing what you could in difficult, unclear, and dangerous circumstances.

As a young woman I did intervene when I saw a great big drunken bully lashing into a small woman in Australia one time. I got a fist in my own face and a week of feeling angry, tearful, resentful, and disempowered for shouting at this big ape to leave the woman alone. That experience taught me to get the professionals, the police, asap.

Here, we do not know whether an aggressor may be armed, so keeping a police emergency number on the mobile is probably the best strategy for intervention. I know it is profoundly disappointing when the police seem disinterested or unwilling to act, but there are limits to our ability to help in such circumstances and it is crazy to risk one's own safety with someone who is blind with rage or alcohol or both.

again, it's not my boyfriend i had the problem with, and if he decides to go off with another girl, well then maybe she is better for him than i am (likely, because i don't want a long term commitment). but the girls really piss me off when i set boundaries right off the bat and they proceed to overstep them, as if they are challenging me, right in front of me! i just don't really understand this behavior!

hi Girlx,

I'm not sure how you "set boundaries" up front to stop flirtation/ unwanted come-ons. Seems to me that laying down the law could be seen as a challenge by some women. It is pretty obvious that you are a couple. Many people will respect that, some won't - probably a measure of their own sexual desperation and greed or sheer b*tchery.

If you can trust yourself to speak to the woman without losing it maybe you could tell her how her behaviour shows complete lack of respect for you and your boyfriend, and ask her not to come around again? However, if she insinuated herself onto your boyfriend's lap already, it sounds like he is not exactly an unwilling participant and doesn't care whether the b*tch respects either of you or not.

For years I was the jealous, defensive one, fending off the simpering flirtations, blatant propositions, and pointed gestures of sexual interest in "my" tall man. And feeling like <deleted> every time some new woman tried it on with him or he responded, even politely.

Until I realized that you can never control anyone, nor is it your right to tell your partner how to behave. If he wants to cheat or flirt, he will. It is up to you whether you can deal with that behaviour or not. And you need to be clear about what you find offensive about it. Is it because you can't "make" him into what you want that you get angry? Is it because you consider him your "property" that you want to ward off intruders? Or is it because his behaviour indicates a lack of shared values and commitment to you? In the end we can only know our own values,why we have them, and whether we can live with people who have different priorities.

These days my husband is a daily magnet for Thai women and girls' attention. We both find the scenario amusing sometimes, annoying and embarrassing at other times (like the Japanese woman who offered herself to him in the lift!). The possibility that he might be unfaithful is just not an issue for me. I trust him and his love for me implicitly. That trust takes a long time to develop and "come-ons" are a test of both parties' ability to trust.