fruittbatt

i know this topic has been posted before but i couldn't find it.... i know the women on here decry the thai men's reputation of being abusive with their women, but in my experience about 70% of the thai men with farang girlfriends or wives that i know (that is, 7 of the 10 mixed relationships i am closest to) beat their partner regularly. i have been lucky enough not to end up with one of them- my thai boyfriends have been violent in their speech but have never tried to hit me.

now i have a friend who married into the biggest family on this island. i have always really disliked the guy she married. but he was a monk for 11 years and just about everyone here is related to him, and he has decent money, which means he gets a lot of respect. the girl is really ignorant- she grew up in a very religious family in england, went to bible school, very conservative and traditional, doesn't know much at all about the real world, never mind thai culture. she got pregnant early in her life, but never married her child's father. she came on holiday with her kid (now 7) to thailand 2 years ago- met this thai guy, and never returned home. her kid has been going to the local thai school ('god' help him), and since she married this boyfriend shortly after she arrived, she has invested lots of money into his business and her father has given his family enough money to build 5 houses on his land that he can rent out in future. i am quite convinced this is the only reason why a thai guy from a big traditional family would be allowed to married a farang girl with a child. i tried to warn her of this in the beginning but she wouldn't listen. they were together about 3 months before the marriage decision.

now 2 years later, the shit has hit the fan. he is the most horrifically controlling person i have ever met (and i come from a background of abuse). absolutely every single thing she does he will tell her she is doing wrong and that she is stupid, and he will come over and show her how to re-do it his way. he constantly humiliates her, even in public, so much so that if she expresses her opinion in a group, he will say "can you please shut your mouth and go sit over there until i am finished speaking to these people"... he also grabs her by the ears and back of the neck to make her follow him places etc. she is an emotional wreck and recently put herself on prozac out of desperation (which he snatched away from her and refused to let her take). i have known for a long time this guy was at least emotionally abusive to her, but have just now gotten evidence that he is also physically abusive, and possibly sexually abusive. some of it is things she has said to me recently, but also an event in which he punched her 3 times in front of her kid and another friend of mine.

now like i said, i know lots of girls getting abused by their boyfriends here, but the difference is that most of them haven't put up with it and their situations have since changed. this girl has been brainwashed to think that in thai culture, women are the man's property and thus are supposed to obey his every need. she thinks it is perfectly acceptable to be beaten because she is wrong, and she doesn't believe that she can get help. she also says that her religion and family have taught her that when she marries someone, she has to stay with him no matter what. now, ok, i can try to understand that, but what about the kid? what if this gets so bad that he eventually puts her in hospital or kills her, or her son? is she still going to stay with him because her religion dictates it? her bright idea now is to move them all in with his mother on the other side of the island, because she says thai culture dictates that that is the best move. this means she will be moving away from all her farang friends and her only support network. my feeling is this family will turn a blind eye to anything that happens to her and she will be moving out of the frying pan into the fire.

i know this is not really my business, and i am trying not to get involved (especially since it is the biggest family where i live), but i have spent a good portion of my life trying to deal with my own abuse (and succeeding), and i really feel i should use my own experience to try to help this girl see there is a big problem and it is not her fault, and she does not have to force herself or her kid to be in this situation. is there anything at all i can do? what would you suggest?

Hi Girlx,

and good for you for caring about this woman's sad situation.

If you know her well enough and are able to talk somewhere neutral (eg a cafe or somewhere gossips cannot observe or overhear) I would suggest that you explain to the woman that she and her son deserve much better than the abuse she is enduring from this man.

I would explain to her that even if she does not care too much about herself, the man's behaviour is modelling what it means to be a man for her son. Does she want her son to have this example, and probably abuse as well?

I would also tell her that domestic violence is not a static or isolated occurrence. In fact the common DV pattern is that it accelerates and becomes more intense, so she is in real physical as well as psychological danger. I am especially concerned that she is already depressed enough to be taking prozac rather than dealing with the problem.

She needs to see that she can - in fact MUST - leave for her own safety....and I agree with the poster who suggested that perhaps her parents need to be alerted to the situation and to intervene to get her out of there. The best news is that she has no kids with this man. Good luck, and I hope you'll get lots more helpful responses on this forum.

This is a VERY old scam,,,,first met it in the UK about 20 years ago.....young people going from door to door....showing a card...and selling things like dusters....which were hugely overpriced....what we did then was to say, within their hearing, that we were going to check with the police......they immediately leave.....................

perhaps mentioning immigration, work permits, tourist police, etc as the goods are placed on the table might send the girl with the seraphic smile scurrying for cover....

people who scam in this way don't do expats any favors. I have not not seen any Thais buying the goods, but some of gestures...eg quick shakes of the head, no eye contact... betray their annoyance and possibly disgust.

Twice in the past month I have noticed a pleasant-smiling young farang woman in Kad Suan Kaew, going from table to table in Tops food court and in the restaurants on 2nd floor. She carries cards written in English and Thai and anodised keyrings/bottle-openers. She deposits both on the table and smiles, then withdraws discreetly for a minute or so to allow customers to read her written spiel.

The gist is that she is collecting for the deaf/dumb, and that YOU can help by making a donation and getting the piece of anodised metal.

Since the young woman does not speak, she is evidently one of the deaf/dumb people herself. This makes it impossible to communicate with her to ask more about her cause.

Has anyone else encountered the young woman, and does anyone know whether the charity actually exists?

Hope it was a great day, SBK, and many happy decades of returns.

Fruittbatt.

have a gander at my great snake photos,

terence

I have a feelng that you were a naughty boy eh Terry ... you went and grabbed its tail didn't you ....?

you know dave,

i must of been extra insane that day as thats exactly what i did.

That's no ornery cobra snake, Terry. You've been pulling Jet Gorgon's tresses again, haven't you?

NR,

when you say you have "realised" there is no romantic future, I think you will change your mind in time. I recall reading through your introduction of yourself here and being amazed at the strength you have shown in the face of some huge losses. And still you are able to care for your adopted son and your dogs, and to think about love! I think the fact that you ARE now considering your romantic options shows that you are beginning to emerge from mourning.

Just because your present life seems to shut out eligible men, don't give up. You may have to create new opportunities in your life for meeting a great guy, or new directions for yourself...which may just attract the sort of guy you would like.

I was well over 40 when I met my second husband. I had raised my children alone for most of 17 years. When they both left home I sold my business and enrolled at university. It was only then that I met someone who is compatible, smart, and fun to be with. It's NEVER too late.

I'm with Jaapfries in finding the focus on Minnig's ethnicity curious. "Swiss" nationals can be German, Italian, French, or any one else with at least one Swiss parent and who was born in Switzerland. How does nationality or ethnicity make any difference to his actions?

Am impressed with the actions of Thai police here in acting on a farang's serious and apparently legitimate complaint. Restores a bit of faith in the Boys in Brown and is a nice change from tales of police corruption, <deleted>'s, etc.

About that plate, Jeffrey. I hope they supplied a knife and fork, sorry spoon and fork as well.

No, I have no desire to be 'let off the hook'. There is no gain in running away from any real intellectual discussion. I have no 'face' to lose. But to be drawn into a circular discussion with someone sprouting confused (note, not confusing) bullshite is non-productive, and will never go anywhere. Don't put too much store into a masters degree. It doesn't give you anything but face, unless you utilise it for the sake of real knowledge, in which case muddying the waters with 'bullshit baffles brains' is counterproductive. I left mine behind long time ago. I say this simply to pre-empt a superficial retort of am I jealous or something similar.

Ever hear of the kiss principle? I'm sure you have. It's a good principle.

OlRedEyes, in seeking the perhaps impossible quest for "truth" I believe there is a place for both simplicity and complexity of thought.

On TV, many posts are of the knee-jerk reaction variety. A minority of posters speaks with insight and an inclusive world view. I write for those who may be prepared to consider what I have to say, even if it is not always crystal clear or conflicts with their own views.

I agree that subjective experience can be described entirely in subjective language, but I don't agree that all of reality is subjective. The evidence point to their also being an objective component to it, regardless that all our experiences are ultimately experienced in a subjective and intersubjective way. I don't agree that there must be a Final Ultimate Knowable Truth that we all can share for truth to be valuable and meaningful and useful. We make as much sense out of all the puzzle pieces that we can, and if there are a lot of pieces left over that don't fit in, those are clues that some re-arranging is in order.

Yes, certainly, truth is relative, slippery, and subject to change. That has no bearing on its value, and the value of the search for it.

I don't really care how fair it is to "judge" Thais as being immature face savers. It is both my right and my duty to see things as clearly as possible. My ideas are subject to debate and revision, but I won't not have them just to be "fair".

Like you, I do value "truth telling", in the sense that I usually (but not always) try to give a full and frank account of events as I see them. I recognize that my views are tinged by all sorts of assumptions, values and biases, so in that sense I can never claim to tell an "objective" truth. I also agree that it is my duty to try to see things from as many angles as i can, and I take your point that it is your right and duty to do the same. Vive la verite, vive la differ(a)nce!

Snide retort, Lannarebirth! My education has not been "earned online" despite the fact that I am doing a Masters Degree by distance education. I would at least have expected you to address the issues raised rather than adopting a supercilious attitude while ignoring the substance of the discussion.

The issue raised was how best to confront someone who is lieing to you, without causing a lose of face to the liar. I don't recall the OP asking anything where a response like this:

I claim that "reality" is a construction, largely based upon our linguistic representation of sensory experiences, which are, in turn, heavily inflected by the cultural myths and beliefs (ie stories and representations...many powerful and official) which we carry around.

"Objective" to me means something having a reality, an independent authority and existence beyond sensory experience and language. What then can be said to be objective?

Likewise, I see clinical reports or any scientific information as being just another story to explain events. The most powerful hypothesis is always provisional and likely to be overturned. Statements like "the earth is round" are simply one way of describing shape. This description is contestable and subject to change.

might have been indicated, or in the least bit helpful. It seemed like the kind of tripe one would read from someone who is being paid per word.

Personally, I have no constuctive input for the OP, because I'm not the least bit concerned if someone lieing to me loses face or not.

in the broader context of notions of "what is truth" anyway and "what is 'reality'", which this discussion addressed over several posts, these remarks were pertinent. Dismissing the views of posters with whom you disagree as "tripe" is both insulting and unconstructive IMO.

totally off topic..but I didnt wanna start a new thread with this question...so am gonna ask here...

chose this thread also cos Jet is here, and she had the similar experience...

with all the frenzy surrounding profiles, friends, avatars, nicknames and avatars recently, I understand that there is a lot more visits to our profiles as a result. Some from people we may not have talked to much, but atleast names we see on the threads we visit.

however, Ive recently been added to someone's list whose name I dont ever recall seeing before so I check...the person hasnt visited my profile, has had a total of 4 posts on thaivisa. why would they add me? mind you Im not exactly complaining makes me look popular but am nevertheless curious as to the motivation?

I know Ive done similar things....Jet was a bit shocked when I added her but atleast I can claim that Ive read various of their posts, or I fight with them over football games, etc etc

so am just curious as to what the ladies think of all this?

same experience and I think the same person, MiG, but I am happy to add anyone as a virtual friend. In fact, I'm honored.

because we are all chicken <deleted> to some extent, and dependent on others' good opinion of us.

seeing events through a very loaded telescope....something I believe we all do.

I don't think it fair to judge most Thais as "immature" or "face-savers" based on your own empirically small sample and the stories of others who may be carrying prejudicial attitudes....which would account for the "patterns" you are seeing here. It could also be that your own perceptions are tinged with a cultural bias,

Your first two statements are sweeping generalisations, which I for one know is patently untrue. The third admonishes a poster for doing the same thing you just did, twice. Except he never said 'all'.

Being able to step outside of your own bias, cultural or otherwise, is quite possible, once you realise the damage you can do to yourself by clouding your judgement with these biases. And the gain in effectiveness and opportunity that opens up once you have cultivated the ability to do so.

But as always, obfuscation - sorry for the repeated use of the word but it does the best job of describing what I mean - will continue until reason retreats into silence, much like a Fox 'discussion' where the one thats shouts the loudest and longest believes they win the argument.

I retire to the Last word, Hot bum, I have nothing to say threads.

well, that let you off the hook of backing your "truth" claims, didn't it?

To answer your points: yes, I did generalise in the statement that we "all" depend on to some extent on the good opinions of others. Guilty as charged.

In the second statement I made it very clear that this was my opinion, not a general statement, by using the words "I believe". Ditto in the suggestions to Jamman, I did not "admonish him" so much as suggest that he may have been generalising from insufficient evidence, as indeed i did myself. You are quite correct.

I have no desire to "win" any argument. This is a discussion, and I take it seriously enough to answer anyone who I think has made a good or contestable point.

Snide retort, Lannarebirth! My education has not been "earned online" despite the fact that I am doing a Masters Degree by distance education. I would at least have expected you to address the issues raised rather than adopting a supercilious attitude while ignoring the substance of the discussion.

I think I did understand that you meant to say that it is the human condition to be trapped within our linquistic mental representations. I suggest that we are not necessarily so trapped.

I can generalize about Thailand having a higher percentage of immature adults based on my experiences and the experiences that I hear others talk about it. My experiences are objective experiences, based upon the senses. If I see a car crash, the event is not a subjective anecdote up and until a clinical study says otherwise. Careful examination of the stories of many other people has led me to see patterns. If the only evidence you can take to be objective is a clinically controlled double blind experiment, then you must therefore discount most of all reality.

I claim that "reality" is a construction, largely based upon our linguistic representation of sensory experiences, which are, in turn, heavily inflected by the cultural myths and beliefs (ie stories and representations...many powerful and official) which we carry around.

"Objective" to me means something having a reality, an independent authority and existence beyond sensory experience and language. What then can be said to be objective?

Likewise, I see clinical reports or any scientific information as being just another story to explain events. The most powerful hypothesis is always provisional and likely to be overturned. Statements like "the earth is round" are simply one way of describing shape. This description is contestable and subject to change.

Having said all this heavy stuff, there remains the question about deliberate intent to deceive in order to save one's face or bacon. I don't think it fair to judge most Thais as "immature" or "face-savers" based on your own empirically small sample and the stories of others who may be carrying prejudicial attitudes....which would account for the "patterns" you are seeing here. It could also be that your own perceptions are tinged with a cultural bias, and that you are seeing events through a very loaded telescope....something I believe we all do.

Truth is pretty simple.

could you explain it to us, then?

Ah, but what is the essential YOU, if all we have is words to represent ourselves, as you claim? (We are all trapped in our maze of discourse).

I do not see that idealised Hollywood-code fantasy movie representations of "heroes" bear a lot of resemblance to the reality of our daily lives. Many of the western adult-aged people I have met are extremely dependent on others' good opinions. I grant you that many may not be "adult" in the psychological sense of the word.

I don't claim that all we have is our words to represent ourself. Thais believe this, I do not. I believe that our actions have an objective reality. We can lie, but that doesn't make the words into any sort of truth. The essential ME that I'd like to be admired is nothing more than my body and actions and ideas.

And we are not trapped in a maze of discourse. Language is a tool that we use. We are not the tool. I am not my mental interpretation. That is the whole point of meditation - to dis-identify with thoughts, and embody our being more fully.

Yes, a great many adult aged westerners are still at a teen level of sense of self. The percentage is different in different cultures, and is extremely high in Thailand.

By saying that we are trapped in a maze of discourse, I meant that we - all of us human beings - Thai, falang, whoever, represent ourselves through language(s). In this forum language is our only tool for representing ourselves and our ideas (apart from the avatar).

I do not understand how it is possible for you to generalise about "Thais" as largely psychologically immature or as all sharing the belief that words are all we have to represent ourselves. How do you know? What is your objective basis for making such statements?

Assume everything is a lie here, until proven otherwise.

Those that so easily deride the value of truth and facts, and try to obfuscate it with statements like "There is no objective reality", would do well to ponder how well and at what speed progress in anything from personal relationships to scientific advances will happen without relying on the truth of statements made.

If there is no solid ground to stand on, the next step cannot be relied on.

Truth is subjective and personal: just ask two people for their account of the same event and compare the difference in their perceptions and recall. You are onto something important when you say "relying on the truth of statements"....that is a country mile away from the claming the actual "absolute truth" of the statements themselves. you are talking about hypothesis and belief as a basis for action, not about an objective reality or truth at all.

I would seriously take exception to the statement "because we are all chicken <deleted> to some extent, and dependent on others' good opinion of us." Maybe you move in the 'wrong' circles.

Yes, I'm a human being!

Some people habitually deliberately distort events (lie) in order to avoid trouble. This is not a specifically Thai trait. It exists in every culture, because we are all chicken <deleted> to some extent, and dependent on others' good opinion of us.

People in Thailand are much more dependent on others good opinion of them than are people in the west.

The majority of adults in the west respect the development of the individual. In many movies you will see a scene like the one in a Harry Potter movie, where the lead character is at first looked down on, but acts untroubled by this and just goes along with his life, and eventually becomes respected. You never see a character in any western TV show or movie who is portraid as successfully gaining face through deceit. We respect more an honest and imperfect a-hole than a deceitful mr. perfect. Western adults are not dependent on others good opinion. Western teenagers are.

Yes, I want to be loved, respected, admired. But what I want to be admired is ME, not some fictitious representation.

Ah, but what is the essential YOU, if all we have is words to represent ourselves, as you claim? (We are all trapped in our maze of discourse).

I do not see that idealised Hollywood-code fantasy movie representations of "heroes" bear a lot of resemblance to the reality of our daily lives. Many of the western adult-aged people I have met are extremely dependent on others' good opinions. I grant you that many may not be "adult" in the psychological sense of the word.

Good argument, Fruitt.

I am of the same mind, but just tend to adjust my position so I do not upset anybody else but want to make myself and my dogs comfy. And if I can share a laugh with someone, I'm even happier.

Share a laugh and a spliff Jet ... and then we'll eat ... pizza of course

Save the cigars for after tho

mmmm....can i come to the virtual restaurant, too? I'll share a laugh, but my spliffing and pizza days are done, so I'll sit upwind and try hard not to inhale.

I've just read this thread for the first time & I'm amazed at how vehement (& downright insulting in some cases) the anti-smoking lobby here are. How many of you saying that cigarette smoke is the greatest evil in the world are ex-smokers? Just wondering, as I've heard that ex-smokers are more forceful in their anti-smoking beliefs than those who have never smoked.

I'm a non-smoker. I have no problem with others smoking around me. All but one LTR I've had have been with smokers. I have far bigger problems with "nanny states" legislating against everything than I do with secondhand smoke.

Out of interest, for the non-Thais, how did you get here? On an aeroplane? Any idea how much damage those things are doing to the environment via air pollution? But we all use them. Where's the responsibility to others there?

Edit - typo

good point about air-travel, NR. the knack is to use them as little as poss, but the upside is that - like any form of public transport - planes do the job of carrying many people rather than just one, two, or five. Imagine if planes were as cheap as motor-cys!

All air-con spaces are non-smoking, even in Thailand. Why are you anti-smokers still complaining? Can you distinguish cigarette smoke from bus, lorry and bike exhaust fumes and say "Oh, I got sick or got cancer from the guy smoking cigarettes across from me at the vendor stall on Sukhomvit?" I can smell the stink of your vehicle's exhaust everywhere, too.

Funny that suicidal folks hook their faces up to a car's exhaust pipe to off themselves. Guess it takes too long with cigs.

So, militant non-smokers, you have a divine right to drive a polluting car, right? When you finish complaining about smokers, what's next on your agenda?

Peace pipe, brothers and sisters.

Jet,

you're arguing from the position of comparing pollutants, here. Yes, exhaust fumes, charcoal brazier fumes, open fires, factory emissions, coal power stations, cig smoke- first or second-hand, all add to our daily intake of toxic grit, which infiltrates sinuses, lungs and arteries, not to mention the critical effects on the atmosphere and climate change.

I do not own a car or motor-cy for environmental reasons, and do not buy greasies like french fries, fish cakes, kebabs, ping or yang stuff because i don't support polluting practices. I don't accept plastic bags at shops for the same reason. This doesn't make me some environmental fascist who prescribes what others should do or not. I try to live simply by my lights and to maintain a consciousness that all my words and actions affect other people and the world in which we live.

It does piss me off though when I go to open-fronted or enclosed restaurants with no smoking signs, only to find ashtrays on the tables, and people puffing with impunity at the next table. If I'm eating al fresco, I accept that smokers will be there, and try to position myself upwind if possible.

My take on the argument re "rights" of smokers and non-smokers is this: we live in a world threatened by pollution of our own making. In this knowledge, to deliberately inflict ANY further polluting practices on others is a marker of despair and contempt, that is callous and ultimately self-destructive IMO. I support any legislation which will lower pollution levels and preserve the life of our planet.

My partner and I ran into a professional Thai acquaintance the other day, who proceeded to tell us bald-faced lies to our surprised, smiling faces. We didn't press the point, and we parted company as if no lies had been told. You cannot proceed to 'the truth' which doesn't exist, and you can't accuse them of 'lies' they haven't told. Proceed as if the conversation never took place, as if you have no information on which to extend the relationship.

Here, far more than 'back home' the truth does not matter, or is not the same. Mai bpen rai. But in business dealings, caveat emptor.

I think you've got a good understanding of the culture-wide view towards truth in Thailand. Truth does not exist. There is no objective reality that people compare words to. The only thing that exists is what is said. Face is the idea that appearances are what is important - what people think of you is much more important than what you are. Lies are like makeup, if they make a person appear more pretty, that person will use them. They don't have the feeling that the lies make them ugly.

Wise words from PB and Jamman. It is easy to imagine that OUR (falang) values about "truth-telling" are somehow a virtuous and superior way of dealing with other people. I also attach value to speaking as faithfully as possible.

However, as Jamman points out, in the end there are only words and versions of events. "There is no objective reality". Some people habitually deliberately distort events (lie) in order to avoid trouble. This is not a specifically Thai trait. It exists in every culture, because we are all chicken <deleted> to some extent, and dependent on others' good opinion of us.

I think PB's way of smiling, keeping relations chilled and cordial, but refusing to extend any relationship with a proven liar is a strategy which negotiates both Thai "face-value" and western values very successfully.

Hi Donna, and thanks Hope you are fine!

Hi Tahlin, good to hear from you on this forum. I was a bit reluctant to PM you as I noticed from an earlier post on CM forum that you are looking for friends your own age. My elder daughter is about your age, but hey, I'm not ageist, and was really interested to hear that you like writing....something in common. Please PM me if you'd like to meet for a coffee in CM: would love to meet you!