brucetefl

The libel laws in Thailand are very strict.

Most schools believe the foreigner will not stick around and fight for what is legally due. There is some truth to that because most have to leave Thailand if they are no longer employed here.

It's too bad all the websites here in Thailand are afraid to name and shame the bad schools.

It would be nice to know if your entering into a good school or a cesspool.

The MOL really favors the worker in Thailand. Its definitely worth taking this to court. I once had an employee who signed a resignation, received his final pay (by CHECK so it was verifiable) and still took me to Labor claiming he had been fired and never been paid. And it still took us a long time to get the court to agree we were in the right despite having all the evidence.

I never said it applied to all teachers, but I have been here for 17 years and my 3 children have all attended Thai schools. I have also been involved in the educational system here for all of that 17 years.

This happens with many teachers at every school. And this is a serious problem.

Just last term at a local school here in Rayong the NES teachers were instructed to create their final exams 1 month in advance. They grumbled but complied. Three weeks later, their students all had been given copies of the final exams while studying at the Thai teachers' private school on the weekend.

This is just one example. I could list at least 20 more.

Allowing teachers to run these private schools is a terrible conflict of interest that fosters these problems.

The problem is not selling cosmetics. its selling their after-school tutorial classes, the classes where the students are actually taught (there is a disincentive to teach in the "unpaid" classes) and often given the answers to exams.

That really isn't fair. Within the Thai educational system, teachers have so many non-teaching duties that the time left for actually teaching is severely compromised. Instead of having a dean, some teacher has to be in charge of student discipline. Instead of having a "school secretary" or bookkeeper, two teachers have to be in charge of the budget, one for receipts and one for bill paying. Instead of having a vice principal, some teacher is designated "head teacher" and has to do all the principal's administrative bidding. Etc. Teachers are constantly sent off to various seminars at the expense of teaching time. The are sent to the wat, women wearing white nun suits. They are forced to attend various celebrations during school time. They have to "guard the school" on weekends and evenings. I seriously wonder when they have any time to teach. This is not the teachers' fault; it is the fault of the structure in which they are caught up.

So when a teacher offers reasonably priced extra weekend or evening classes to his or her students to help them perform better on the ONET or other national tests, or just to help them improve their grades over all, why is this bad? Your view is extremely cynical, and while it certainly may apply to a few teachers, it surely does not include them all. The students that need these extra classes to make it through the system are lucky some teachers are willing to provide them.

The problem is not selling cosmetics. its selling their after-school tutorial classes, the classes where the students are actually taught (there is a disincentive to teach in the "unpaid" classes) and often given the answers to exams.

Thai teacher salaries are crap. I don't blame them too much for having a job on the side, streaming in some cash from another source such as sales. Just keep it away from students. They should not be clients. Seems like common sense, but to use the tired phrase, "This is Thailand."

The flip side of this coin is this. Thai teachers go above and beyond in certain aspects of the job that a Westerner would balk at. At my former Thai school (K-M6), Thai teachers practiced on their own time for a massive celebration for the school principal. Hours of dance rehearsals, singing practice, comedy skits. You name it. They did it. In order to get funds for the show, they sold homemade food items on the school grounds, and naturally the students were the likely customers. It was odd. Of course to attend the production was free, but students shelled out money for goods so teachers could have enough money for make-up, costumes, props, etc...

Just my 2 baht. Thanks for reading.

Shame they did not put the same effort into teaching, perhaps if they did you would not be crying into your beer glass for them

Believe everything you read on the internet because its always true.

The Chinese teachers license is required for all teachers in China just like the teachers license is supposed to be required in Thailand. it will probably not be considered the equivalent of a degree or "real" teachers license unless the TCT is not paying attention that day.

So you wonder how accepted a legitimate degree in TESOL will be compared to a degree in the various majors teachers currently have?

I fail to see how this is very complicated.

Both will allow the teacher to fulfill the requirements of having a degree, so they can get their work permit and visa.

Yet a degree in TESOL will be in teaching English. It seems illogical that a school would consider this less viable than a degree in Economics or Botany.

so people concerned that the course would fail due to lack of numbers can put those fears to rest.

Good to know that the course will complete (due to enough customers students taking the course) but we still don't know how accepted the qualification will be by employers. I guess we will have to wait and see what happens when people start applying for jobs in a few years time.

Why would employers care about the qualification,if it is approved by the m.o.e isn't that enough.

Here you have 60 students who want to teach and are doing a 3 year long degree,which is probably more appropriate to teaching than some young backpacker with a degree in political science or arts and wants to teach to bankroll is drinking,partying in thailand.

I think good on them for doing what they can to legitimize their teaching.

just as an update, having more students is significant. With about 60 students and a great deal of additional interest we are financially viable, so people concerned that the course would fail due to lack of numbers can put those fears to rest.

For anyone interested, please Email me if you would like to attend one week of classes in March, April or May. There will be no obligation to join more of the BA but for those skeptics who wish to visit Thongsook and see the training, this might be a good opportunity.

I need to print this out and frame it--I am sure thats the first time anyone has ever agreed with me in a Thai forum about teaching. LOL

THANK YOU LOADED

That's a pretty good summary of the main requirements.

I can summarize the regulations:

1. The building has a fire exit. If you are on the ground floor thats pretty easy.

2. the building is structurally sound.

3. The Thai owner of the school has a degree (they just added that about 8 years ago) and the head teacher is qualifid to teach in that subject.

4. You have a curriculum.

Its not really that big of a deal (one way or the other).

I can summarize the regulations:

1. The building has a fire exit. If you are on the ground floor thats pretty easy.

2. the building is structurally sound.

3. The Thai owner of the school has a degree (they just added that about 8 years ago) and the head teacher is qualifid to teach in that subject.

4. You have a curriculum.

Its not really that big of a deal (one way or the other).

As I mentioned, in the small town where we started, not only were they unconcerned about us operating before being registered, they encouraged it! But this is typical of the differences between small-town and big-city Thailand. They simply did not want to waste their and our time if the school was not sustainable.

I would guess that most businesses in Thailand are unregistered. An example would be the 100 road-side restaurants that are on the beach between Ban Phe and Suan Son. The taxes on these businesses are very arbitrary--the tax guy shows up once per year and basically negotiates. My friend's shop was assessed at 40,000 baht for the year which they eventually negotiated down to 10,000--this for selling Thai and western food which is unquestionably taxable.

I am not trying to encourage you not to register. Its certainly a good idea. Heck my wife is the Provincial Association head of non-formal education. But in a small town if you do not step on any toes and are a positive influence on the community (maybe let a few poorer kids study for free or even a few kids of policemen?) its unlikely anyone is going to hassle you. Even my wife is frustrated that so many schools in Rayong have never bothered to register.

Of course schools have a difficult time getting in trouble for failure to pay tax since they are tax exempt.

There are three types of Educatonal organizations in Thailand, universities, formal education (Pratom 1 through Matayom 6) and non-formal education--everything from English schools to massage schools. All are tax exempt.

Here in Rayong about 1/2 the non-formal schools are unregistered. In the bigger cities they probably are more rigid in complying with the rules.

I know that in Chiang Mai unlicensed and unregistered informal schools (massage, language, cooking etc.) will be visited very soon by the revenue department. If they are unlicensed, they also are not registered with the revenue department. Intentionally avoiding tax payments is a criminal offense in Thailand.

I would agree if the story ended there. But if nothing else I believe it shows Immigration will not have an issue wth the Thongsook degree in 2 1/2 years when people begin acutally graduating.

Well, I did all that I could (completed the Thai Culture and Ethics course) got enrolled with your program affiliated with Thongsook...but Krusapha still turned my school down for a 2nd Waiver. About 3 weeks ago, I decided to go to Krusapha myself and plead my case to stay. They acted like there was nothing they could do. I plead all I could, and several people were in the "Foreign Teacher" office listening. Well, I don't know how...but before I could get back to my school, Krusapha called my school and told them to change my contract and make me a "Volunteer" teacher or a "Special Lecturer" and they would extend my waiver. We did that, sent the documents back to them and they granted the waiver.

Interesting news. However, I believe that the change of the occupation's name triggered the granting of the provisional teaching permit, rather than studying for the Thongsook BA TESOL.

http://www.thaivisa....aching-license/

I thought I would share my expereince from running a small school like yours... many years ago.

We were cahrginf 50 baht per hour and had groups of about 12 kids. It was enough to live comfortably on and better than working for one of the language school chains--not that there were any in the small town I was staying in. I think we were earning about 35,000 per month, and this at a time when the average teacehr earned less than 20k.

It was a lot of work--teaching and marketing. but fun too.

The interesting thing for me is when we went to regieter our school. They asked us... how long have you been operating? We had not yet opened but thought it was necessary--I had just come from Hong Kong. When we explained that we PLANNED to open they laughed and said "come back in 6 months if you are successful".

I received this from a Thongsook College BA student today and she gave me permission to post it on the forum.

"Bruce,

I wanted to let you know about my experience at Immigration on Wednesday. I think it MAY be good news for Thongsook International. As you may (or may not) know my Visa was stamped back in September when I renewed it that because I did not have a BA, and the 2nd Waiver from Krusapha (Thailand Teachers Council) that I would have to leave Thailand on December 8th. (my 2 year waiver would end then)...although my Work Permit WAS renewed for a year!

Well, I did all that I could (completed the Thai Culture and Ethics course) got enrolled with your program affiliated with Thongsook...but Krusapha still turned my school down for a 2nd Waiver. About 3 weeks ago, I decided to go to Krusapha myself and plead my case to stay. They acted like there was nothing they could do. I plead all I could, and several people were in the "Foreign Teacher" office listening. Well, I don't know how...but before I could get back to my school, Krusapha called my school and told them to change my contract and make me a "Volunteer" teacher or a "Special Lecturer" and they would extend my waiver. We did that, sent the documents back to them and they granted the waiver.

On Wednesday, at Immigration, the Immigration Officer acted very surprised and confused and she and the Admin person from my school who goes with us, had a 30-min discussion back and forth (in Thai, of course) and I was concerned they were not going to give me the stamp in my Visa...but as it turned out, the Officer attends Thongsook and had not heard about this program...and didn't understand how Krusapha approved my waiver (apparently I was the first one since all these new changes and rules are being enforced that got the waiver from them without a BA) that our Immigration office has had come through approved. So the 30 minute discusson was our Admin person explaining all the hoops I had to jump through and the Immigration office wanted to know because they have so many come through that they have to just turn away because they don't have the waiver and they told her they want to be able to tell them what to do. The Immigration officer (that attends Thongsook) wants more information about this BA program to pass on to others. I told my admin person I would contact you to see what info I can give them. But it could mean LOTS more students for the BA TESOL program. They were excited, she said, that Krusapha accepted the letter from Thoongsook and to hear about this program. Apparently, that's what the 30 minutes discussion was all about. they even made a copy of the Waiver from Krusapha and the Letter of Acceptance from Thoongsook and put into the big manual."

I received this from a Thongsook College BA student today and she gave me permission to post it on the forum.

"Bruce,

I wanted to let you know about my experience at Immigration on Wednesday. I think it MAY be good news for Thongsook International. As you may (or may not) know my Visa was stamped back in September when I renewed it that because I did not have a BA, and the 2nd Waiver from Krusapha (Thailand Teachers Council) that I would have to leave Thailand on December 8th. (my 2 year waiver would end then)...although my Work Permit WAS renewed for a year!

Well, I did all that I could (completed the Thai Culture and Ethics course) got enrolled with your program affiliated with Thongsook...but Krusapha still turned my school down for a 2nd Waiver. About 3 weeks ago, I decided to go to Krusapha myself and plead my case to stay. They acted like there was nothing they could do. I plead all I could, and several people were in the "Foreign Teacher" office listening. Well, I don't know how...but before I could get back to my school, Krusapha called my school and told them to change my contract and make me a "Volunteer" teacher or a "Special Lecturer" and they would extend my waiver. We did that, sent the documents back to them and they granted the waiver.

On Wednesday, at Immigration, the Immigration Officer acted very surprised and confused and she and the Admin person from my school who goes with us, had a 30-min discussion back and forth (in Thai, of course) and I was concerned they were not going to give me the stamp in my Visa...but as it turned out, the Officer attends Thongsook and had not heard about this program...and didn't understand how Krusapha approved my waiver (apparently I was the first one since all these new changes and rules are being enforced that got the waiver from them without a BA) that our Immigration office has had come through approved. So the 30 minute discusson was our Admin person explaining all the hoops I had to jump through and the Immigration office wanted to know because they have so many come through that they have to just turn away because they don't have the waiver and they told her they want to be able to tell them what to do. The Immigration officer (that attends Thongsook) wants more information about this BA program to pass on to others. I told my admin person I would contact you to see what info I can give them. But it could mean LOTS more students for the BA TESOL program. They were excited, she said, that Krusapha accepted the letter from Thoongsook and to hear about this program. Apparently, that's what the 30 minutes discussion was all about.

they even made a copy of the Waiver from Krusapha and the Letter of Acceptance from Thoongsook and put into the big manual."

We have restructured the course in a way that makes it more accessible to our students.

Thongsook College will schedule 14 weeks of classes per year. This will be from the first Monday of March through the second week in May and four weeks in October.

There are 120 credits in this program. Of those 120 credits, the following will NOT require a face-to-face component at Thongsook college:

--Your 120-hour TESOL course (wherever you took it) and the 29 units of Intro to TESOL: 6 credits

--One term of Journals and teaching: 6 credits

--General Science: 3 credits

--Language Acquisition Research Paper: 6 credits

--Phonology, Morphology and Syntax Research Paper: 6 credits

--Methodology Research Paper: 6 credits

That leaves 84 credits, or 28 classes, that you must attend face to face.

One week is one class, so over the course of your study you must attend class for 28 weeks.

During the 14 weeks of classes per year we will offer as many of the classes as possible, duplicating them so those that missed can make them up.

I believe this schedule will allow for a great deal of flexibility for those with varying schedules. This also eliminates most of the online portion of the course.

Not happy with the tone, Matthew? Welcome to my world. I could post the sky is blue and I would be vilified. You never get used to it; at least I don't. I just avoid Thai forums.

To answer the comments about the "Accreditation" page, the site initially said "Accreditation and Associations" and since part of the BA TESOL is the TEFL International Certificate, I felt, rightly or wrongly, that these past and present associations could be listed--especially when we were just getting the site UP. I took the list down a few months ago and replaced it with scanned copied of the Thongsook accreditation from the Ministry of Education.http://thongsookinternational.com/accreditation.html

OK there is something in the works.

We have already discussed that this is a BA and NOT a B.Ed. But we are considering changing some of the courses to match those required by the TCT.

Namely:

Language and Technology for Teachers, (Already included as The NEW IT in the classroom class)

Curriculum Development, (already have Materials Development and it can be altered to meet this requirement?)

Learning Management,

Psychology for Teachers,

Educational Measurement and Evaluation

Classroom Management, (Already included)

Educational Research,

Educational Innovation & Information Technology,

Teacher Professionalism

So the current plan is to change the content slightly so that you will get 24 credit hours in the required classes to give you a waiver for the TKT!

Now this might be very COOL!

Do any of you know any good visa services from hat yai?

Thank you for your comments, Richard.

First of all, the wording on accreditation was a direct translation from the Thai website. For a foreigner, having the word "accredited" is probably better. In Thailand, if you say you were "established as an institute of higher education" that means CHE... accredited.

You make some good points. The website needs some improvements. But our international program has not even begun (with a start date of 2 June--dare I suggest that Payup website may have even been just as bad or even worse a few years back when you started running programs for the first time? Lets not make any sweeping generalizations based upon a website for a new program.

Richard of Payup has contacted me. I am sure he can give us a few pointers.

I have a few updates:

As you can see from the attached file, all degree programs from an accredited Thai college or university are approved by the CHE.

And as you can see by the link here, Thongsook is indeed an accredited college.

http://www.nesothailand.org/dutch-organizations/local-education-system/copy_of_list-of-accredited-thai-universities

While I am going to try to get a letter from CHE similar to the attachment, I believe this completely puts this matter to rest.

As an aside, I hav enever heard back from our friends at Payup, even after sending him a message through this website.

I will be genuinely interested to see if you get a response and what that response is.

I will try to get documentation. I have simply been working for to long on this to expect to receive anything quickly.

You are making a big assumption--that there is a list of accredited BA programs. This list may, in fact, exist. It may not. If it does, then in 3 years I am certain our program will be on it. We have acted according to all rules regarding accreditation of programs.