Tony M

I did quote it, but did not say it. However, if you see my last post, the one above yours, you will see that clarification has moved on.

My current tax advisor (also known as ChatGPT) has clarified the situation to me, and says: Me: I am a UK citizen who is tax resident in Thailand. The Double Taxation Agreement between UK and Thailand says: Part C – Article 25 – Non-Discrimination Nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith, which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected. This provision shall, notwithstanding the provisions of Article 1, also apply to persons who are not residents of one or both of the Contracting States. Thai citizens are not taxed on their aged pension. Do I, as a tax resident resident in Thailand have to pay tax on my UK aged pension transferred into Thailand each month ? ChatGPT Under the Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) between the UK and Thailand, the non-discrimination clause in Article 25 provides that nationals of one Contracting State should not be subjected to more burdensome taxation in the other Contracting State than that imposed on its own nationals in similar circumstances. However, there are additional details to consider in your case regarding the taxation of pensions. UK State Pension and Thai Taxation: According to the DTA, pensions may be taxed in the country of residence. In Thailand, personal income tax on pensions from abroad is generally subject to tax. Thailand typically taxes pensions received by its residents, including foreign pensions such as those from the UK. Thai Tax Rules: Under Thai tax law, pensions received from abroad are generally taxable. However, there may be specific provisions or exemptions that could apply, so it’s important to check the latest Thai tax regulations or consult with a local tax advisor for the most accurate advice. Application of Non-Discrimination: The non-discrimination clause ensures you should not be treated less favorably than Thai nationals in similar circumstances. However, this does not necessarily exempt you from paying taxes but rather ensures that you are not taxed more harshly than a Thai national in similar situations. To summarize, while the non-discrimination clause is a protective measure, it does not typically exempt you from the obligation to pay tax on your UK pension in Thailand. You would likely need to pay tax on your UK pension income in Thailand. It is advisable to consult with a tax professional in Thailand to understand your exact tax liabilities and ensure compliance with local tax laws. Me: Are Thai nationals, tax resident in UK, subject to UK tax on their Thai pensions if the pension payments are transferred to UK ? For Thai nationals who are tax residents in the UK and receive pensions from Thailand, the tax treatment in the UK would generally follow these principles: UK Taxation on Foreign Pensions: In the UK, pensions from foreign sources, including Thai pensions, are typically subject to UK income tax if the individual is a UK tax resident. This means that if a Thai national is a tax resident in the UK, their Thai pension income is likely to be taxed in the UK. Double Taxation Agreement (DTA): The Double Taxation Agreement between the UK and Thailand does not usually provide a specific exemption for pensions paid from one country to another. Instead, it generally allows each country to tax pensions but aims to avoid double taxation. This often means that the pension will be taxed in the country where the recipient resides (in this case, the UK). Tax Credits and Reliefs: To prevent double taxation, the UK tax system might provide relief. For example, the UK tax resident could claim a credit for any tax paid in Thailand on the same pension income, or apply for a tax relief under the terms of the DTA. Thai Tax Considerations: Thai nationals receiving pensions from Thailand might also be subject to Thai tax laws, but this would typically depend on whether they are still considered tax residents of Thailand or if the pension is subject to Thai tax rules even if paid abroad. In summary, a Thai national who is a tax resident in the UK would generally need to pay UK tax on their Thai pension. The DTA aims to alleviate the risk of double taxation, but specific details and reliefs should be confirmed by consulting a tax professional in the UK. Me: Is there any evidence of Thai nationals, tax resident in UK, having paid UK income tax ? ChatGPT Yes, there is evidence that Thai nationals who are tax residents in the UK generally do pay UK income tax on their foreign pensions, including those from Thailand. Here’s a breakdown of how this typically works: UK Tax Residency and Global Income: In the UK, tax residents are subject to UK income tax on their worldwide income, including pensions from abroad. This means that Thai nationals who are UK tax residents must report and pay tax on their Thai pensions in the UK. Historical Cases and Guidance: Various sources, including UK tax guidelines and case studies, show that foreign pensions are subject to UK income tax if the recipient is a UK tax resident. The UK tax authority, HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC), provides guidance that confirms this principle. Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) Relief: To address concerns about double taxation, the UK’s DTA with Thailand allows for relief mechanisms. Although the DTA itself does not specifically exempt Thai pensions from UK tax, it aims to ensure that taxpayers do not face double taxation. The individual might be able to claim relief for any Thai tax paid on the same income, but this does not exempt them from paying UK tax on their worldwide income. Examples of Tax Filing: In practice, individuals in this situation typically need to file a UK Self Assessment tax return, declaring their Thai pension income. They would then be taxed on this income according to UK tax rates, and any applicable relief or credit for foreign taxes paid can be claimed. Professional Advice: Many tax professionals in the UK handle cases involving foreign pensions, including those from Thailand, and ensure that clients comply with UK tax obligations while maximizing any available reliefs under the DTA. For specific cases or additional clarity, it’s always a good idea for individuals to consult with a tax advisor or accountant who can provide tailored advice based on the latest regulations and personal circumstances.

You are probably right, but T&G seems to be of the opinion that : Part C – Article 25 – Non-Discrimination https://www.rd.go.th/english/855.html#article25 Nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith, which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected. This provision shall, notwithstanding the provisions of Article 1, also apply to persons who are not residents of one or both of the Contracting States. Under that Clause above, Australian Citizens are entitled to the same taxation ‘rules and requirements’ as that which is applied to the Citizens of Thailand. Thailand does not tax the Aged Pension of its Citizens that receive their ‘Aged Pension’, and therefore under this Clause they cannot tax the Aged Pensions of Australian Nationals. And the UK DTA has the same/similar wording ? I'm not arguing with you, but with the logic of the non-discrimination Article 24 of the UK DTA and the ad nauseum tax threads for the past 9 months. It is a forum, after all. That said, I give up, and will wait for further clarification, if any.

Can I add this from the UK-Thailand DTA (non-discrimination): (5) In this Article the term "taxation" means taxes of every kind and description. What are the implications of that statement ?

Great info, many thanks. It will take me weeks to understand it ! I do see your paragraph on non-discrimination (Article 25), and that seems to inly that the AUS aged pension cannot be taxable in Thailand because the Thai "aged pension" is not taxed. The UK-Thailand DTA seems to echo this : Article 24 Non-discrimination (1) The nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other Contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected. Does that mean that the UK state pension is also not taxable in Thailand for the same reason? I know that I sounds a little "stupid" of me, but that seems to be very clear and I have not seen it mentioned before (although it might have been).

Wow. Excellent information, but it will take many readings (by me) to even start to understand it. Many thanks !

Thanks for the response. I'm not sure that I understand the last part of your reply ? Take what scheme at face value (that may be taxed) ?

I tend to agree, but can't get over the ambiguity (to me) of the wording . I would love to be in a position to "fight" it.

Presumably they wouldn't see it until, and if, they audit the tax return as there is no need (?) to file a tax return if there is no assessable income ? Then it would be necessary to provide documentation to evidence the civil service pension being converted to a QROPS, and the DTA wording. Help, I need a tax specialist. Does the fact that you suggest looking at it from the TRD point of view mean that you might see some merit in the argument from my perspective ?

You may well be right. But the wording (my emphasis) - "Any pension paid .. in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State." is slightly ambiguous ? My pension is certainly "any pension". It was certainly paid "in respect of services of a governmental nature." (In this case the UK government) "...... shall be taxable only in that State." It remains "any pension". Whether it matters if it is or was a civil service pension is unclear in the wording and the pension funds do come from services in respect of a governmental nature and "shall be taxable only in the UK". I'm not saying that I am right or that you are wrong, I'm just trying to determine the ambiguity.

Your logic sounds correct. Thanks again !!!

Thanks for your input. I tend to agree on the one hand, but the wording of the DTA is a little ambiguous ? You are correct, the pension is not taxed in the UK. In fact I have not yet drawn down any of the pension funds, and (for information) the QROPS was initially opened to benefit my dependants on my death. Your final piece of advice is, of course, the way to go..

I posted this in another thread also, but nobody seems to want to answer. Any ideas ? I think I understand the ins and outs of the state pension thing, and it is assessable income if it is not a government pension, etc, etc ...... The DTA says - "Any pension paid .. in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State." My pension was a civil service pension, until I changed it to an overseas QROPS pension. So, although it is now an overseas pension does it still remain a pension "in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State............". Assessable or non-assessable ?

I think I understand the ins and outs of the state pension thing, and it is assessable income if it is not a government pension, etc, etc ...... The DTA says - "Any pension paid .. in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State." My pension was a civil service pension, until I changed it to an overseas QROPS pension. So, although it is now an overseas pension does it still remain a pension "in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State............". Assessable or non-assessable ?

It's a good thing they just finished the road works on Jomtien 2nd Road (well, almost). That could have been real messy.

The last paragraph might be of help: Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada (IRCC) relies primarily on documentation from employers, financial institutions, and the Canadian Revenue Agency (CRA) to assess income and proof of funds. They will also look at other supporting documentation to get a holistic picture of the sponsors financial situation. If the sponsor is employed, the following documentation should be provided: Employment Verification Letter (an ofifcial letter from the employer indicating job title, dates of empoyment, duties and responsibilities, and the wages or salary given) Pay Slips / Pay Stubs (generaly, slips for the most recent three pay periods sufficient) Notice of Assessment from the CRA (Canadian Revenue Agency) for the most recent taxation year If a sponsor's employment income is above the Low Income Cut-Off (LICO) corresponding to their location and family size, this is generally enough to satisfy the financial requirement. If a sponsor is not employed or has a low income, they should provide a detailed explanation of how they are going to support their spouse once they become a permanent resident. In addition, the sponsor the sponsor and the sponsored person should provide alternative documentation, which may include: Bank statements showing sufficient cash savings Proof of other income (such business income, retirement benefits, investment income, etc) Proof of assets (such as a house or apartment) Employment proof for immediate family members, if they provide the family with financial support

The caring UKVI do not provide any mechanism for applying for compassionate or emergency visas. Which says a lot about the UKVI, I think. You are obliged to go the the normal system for a visa application, but stressing the compassionate reasons for the visa. You will need to submit documentation to confirm the reason for travel. When your wife goes to VFS to give biometrics, she should make it clear to the VFS staff that she is making a compassionate application, and explain why. She should be prepared to show evidence. She should ask the VFS staff to mark the application as compassionate and urgent. This some guidance: When applying for a compassionate emergency visa, such as to attend a funeral in the UK, you can emphasize the urgency and necessity of your travel in your application and supporting documents. Here’s how you can convey this effectively to the UK Visas and Immigration (UKVI): Choose the Correct Visa Type: Select the appropriate visa category that aligns with the purpose of your visit. This is often a Visitor Visa (standard or family) for compassionate reasons. Document the Emergency: Provide clear and compelling evidence of the emergency situation. This may include: Death certificate or other proof of death. Invitation to the funeral or other relevant documents. Details of your relationship with the deceased or the person organizing the funeral. Any other supporting documents that demonstrate the urgency and necessity of your travel. Explain the Urgency: In your application, clearly explain why it is essential for you to travel to the UK urgently. Describe the relationship you have with the deceased or the importance of your presence at the funeral for emotional or practical reasons. Supporting Letter: Consider including a letter from the person organizing the funeral or another relevant party in the UK, explaining the urgency and importance of your presence. Speedy Processing Request: While you cannot directly request expedited processing, you can clearly state in your application the urgency of your situation. Emphasize that you are applying due to a compassionate emergency and need to travel as soon as possible. Contact UKVI if Necessary: If your situation is extremely urgent and you have not received a decision within a reasonable time frame, you may contact UKVI to inquire about the status of your application. Be prepared to provide your application reference number and other details. Consider Premium Services (if available): In some countries, premium services are available for faster processing of visa applications. Check if this option is available in Thailand for UK visas. It's important to ensure all your documentation is complete and clearly supports your case. Providing as much detail as possible about the emergency and the need for your presence will help UKVI assess your application promptly. You also have the options of selecting a "premium" service. There are two options for quick decisions : 1. Put your application at the front of the queue If you need your visa in a hurry, you can use UK Visas and Immigration (UKVI)’s Priority Visa service for your visit, work or study application. This will ensure the visa decision-makers give priority to your application at every stage of the process. How long does it take to get a visa? UK Visas and Immigration aims to make a decision on your Priority Visa application and contact you to let you know that your passport is ready to be collected within 5 working days from when you submit your biometric information. Cost is 24,175 THB 2. Second option is: Super Priority Visa Get your visa decision by the end of the next working day. The Super Priority Visa service is the fastest way to secure a visa decision. This service will give eligible customers a decision by the end of the next working day after their appointment at the visa application centre. Applications submitted on the last working day of the week or the last working day immediately before a public holiday will be available for collection at the end of the next working day. The Super Priority Visa service is optional and has a fee in addition to the visa fee. The cost is 48,348 THB. Yes, more than 1,000 GBP THB 24175

It's not legit. May not even be genuine. If the idea of the TB test is to get a UK visa, then good luck. The visa will be refused if it is not from an approved TB test centre.

I don't think anything is implied. It is a requirement. The reason that the test can only be done at the approved clinics is because it would be too easy to obtain fake certificates elsewhere.

I wonder if he asked anyone - "Who gave you permission to cut down all those trees and build on that land ?"

The simple solution would, possibly, be to stop all parking on Beach Road ? Or even put parking meters along that side of Beach Road. Make the rental businesses pay to use the public parking spaces.

They can probably see a major tax-grab on funds (income) being transferred, by "tax residents", from overseas to purchase condos in Thailand.

Thanks for that, Mike. I understand what you have said, but I have no idea how that would "work" in reality. I'm pretty sure the TRD won't have a position on it, and will likely say that it is not cash savings held before 1/1/24.

Mike, can I ask your opinion on whether capital in a retirement fund is considered to be cash savings. The capital is derived from a cashed-in Defined Benefit (final salary) pension. The capital was then invested in a retirement portfolio (a QROPS). How do you see the capital ? Is it, or was it cash savings, or is it now an investment, or whatever ? There are, of course, some "yields" from the fund, but there is no capital gain on the original fund amount, as some has been taken in pension drawdowns over the years.

It's a reasonable question, but not for this thread. I don't think the OP is particularly interested in how British passports are returned to British passport applicants Perhaps you should address your question on the British Embassy Q&A page in this forum ? Maybe they will answer you, but good luck with that.