inutil

Truth be told, id assume its a knee jerk thing at the moment. Rumours of clampdowns and all that spilling out into issues like Visa exemption lockouts and ed visa problems will have led to people just waiting it out a bit and doing a spot of travelling elsewhere (or popping home for a few months).

Right now Tourist Visas are still on the cards though. For your run of the mill illegal teacher and your run of the mill employer looking to hire someone under ACTUAL market price (when you remove the supply of under the counter teachers), then rationally its business as usual. As i mentioned in another thread, so long as theres no enforcement at the schools themselves, and so long as the back to back tourist visa still remains unchanged (and both seem pretty much the same), then any employers with a bit of a shifty edge to them are just going to move away from their employee being sent on quick exemption in-out runs, to week-off hikes to a proper consulate for a 60 day Tourist visa (or Double Entry TV). I reckon they wont even have the good grace to pay for it either. Youll be on the hook. Theyre breaking the law for you after all! Days off might be paid though. Thats nice. They were for my visa runs.

A bit of forward planning now, perhaps a week off to explore the sights and sounds of Phnom Penh and bish bosh, back you come to do the exact same job in the exact same industry with the exact same security and possible repercussions as before.

Possibly think of this term as a bit of a write off. Feelers are out and people will likely not be chancing things too much just in case suddenly the penalties for knowingly hiring an illegal alien shoot up, but come next school year (or maybe even just next term after this particularly busy August for pronouncements) everyone will have a good idea on where things actually stand and will start making the important changes.

Im not exactly confident that this whole thing is suddenly "solved". In fact it seems just a little more codified is all. But realistically things will go on much the same at the bottom of the ladder, the supply will return, wages will stay static for them without a degree. Possibly theyll go up for those with a degree, but very marginally since the general 'issues' keeping them low will pretty much remain without genuine enforcement at schools or a radical overhaul of the tourist visa.

So, the good teachers without degrees, as i suspected, will now find themselves employable (legally) as teaching assistants. The job will ABSOLUTELY be the same im sure, but they'll now clarify the role and restrictions in the coming months. So theres a way in it seems thats legal. But again, youre fighting for that 10% spot which is not exactly going to gift you job security. You might find yourself on teaching assistant/visa hopping rotation with another few farang to keep suspicions down, and quota's filled. If youre in though, i really advise you to do everything you can to upgrade your skills and get off that shit train. You're not really going to improve your options unless youre really really indispensable to the school. All it will mean is that one year in every two or three, you might have less visa annoyances.

For people with degrees i guess things got a little smoother since you dont count to that 10% due to the waiver. So long as that isnt pulled away, then obviously people might start looking to pay you a few thousand extra to not have to dick around with quotas. As i say though, so long as the supply of illegal teachers remain ballpark (and actually its much more convenient doing the back to back tourist visa runs over the 15 day exemption runs i had to do), then pay wont exactly skyrocket. If you need 3 teachers for your school, you get 1 on a waiver, and 2 either on the 10% quota or 2 rotating on the quota. You have three teachers and life goes on. So i wouldnt hold your breath

Again though, to the waivers, if Thailand is in your long term future, just jump through the hoops and become legit for heavens sake (as soon as they can offer you a test with a pass rate above zero percent, of course - always made me laugh, that one). Youll have a job for life in a country you love. And can ignore all the slimy shit going on at the bottom rung... which reminds me: The path to legitimacy is getting reviewed, and hopefully itll be less of a mess than the last one.

Win win all round then. Backpackers and transients still get to supplement their gig, just on a tourist visa. People who want a gig as a teacher get a chance to prove themselves utterly indispensable to the school and also get off the visa hop train. And waivers see their status slightly pop up (since the tourist visa thing might get clamped down on a bit in the future, and schools might get leaned on a bit to follow the guidelines making it in their interest for someone they can process easily and quickly. They also, no doubt will get a slightly more effective pathway to proper teacher legitimacy).

And of course legit teachers (either them that have QTS from back home or worked their butts off in Thailand for status). Well, you deserve a real pay grade anyways and unlike the rest of us, offer something genuinely marketable (no waivers, straight teaching staff, and of course skills, methodologies, and training). So really none of this affects you anyways... well, except of course all of the supply of NETs keeping wages down generally - then again, a NET presence in most schools means other schools feel compelled to have tehir own NET presence to keep the parents happy, simultaneously driving up demand - but probably not anywhere near enough. Cost of living! Just remember theres that in the end). Oh, but easier pathways to legitimacy is going to of course impact on your qualifications though as well... so i guess theres that as well. Basically you aint winning i think. But everyone else is. Shady schools get to still pick from the same list of options, and less shady schools still get to pick from a wide array of options staying within the law.

Reading that clause from the po-po in the other thread about support staff (well, education personnel), doesnt this leave a huge gap in that last little bit... ill bold it: 

Educational Personnel is:
Person performing librarian, guidance, educational technology, registration and evaluation, general administration, supporter of education as specified by the Private Education Commission  
(4)  In case of educational personnel, the alien must have degree or experience that meet the work requirement and the ratio of alien employees shall not exceed 10 percent of total teachers or instructors in a particular education institution.

 

Given that Thailand is struggling for teachers at the moment. Given that the current model is clearly not working smoothly to bring in those new teachers due to incredibly high standards, expectations (b.ed/m.ed), or just good old fashioned confusion and red tape. Could we be looking at the first little wellspring of a solution? Ive seen several posts about a second, less stringent, work visa criteria. It looks to me that this might be its genesis. I can see a few schools will be looking at that phrasing carefully to see if they can garner a visa for a TEFL certified and experienced 'supporter of education'. It sounds kinda like a demotion in the title might be on the cards to 'Assistant Language Teacher' with a possible stipulation that a 'real teacher' be present at all times (this is exactly the way they do it in Japan - though you must have a degree). 

The nice thing is that such a law wouldnt lower the bar entirely. Furthermore, it means that those teachers who currently qualify for an automatic work permit due to their actual teaching qualification would allow a school to by-pass the 1/10 rule, and also allow the foreign teacher to teach unassisted. This would mean the teacher keeps their value and status (as would someone on a two year waiver). The school has options for employing outside of the current strict remit, and us waiver teachers (degree holders but not B.ed) can no doubt slip betwixt the two as and when required. 

Perhaps im reading it wrong. It's not like i know the ins and outs of it or how it ties into other state department legislation, but it does seem to be importantly vague and offering some kind of allowance for schools to manage their own foreign support labor a bit more clearly than the current situation.

Can I politely ask the 'English' teachers posting in this thread to double check their posts before hitting the actual 'Post' button. The amount of grammar, punctuation and syntax errors in most posts is truly appalling. I am not a native English speaker but this thread clearly proves that it is better to have an educated and licensed non-native speaker teach English (whom I was taught by) than the typical uneducated native speaker most Thais encounter in these so-called language schools. No wonder the level of English proficiency is so low amongst Thais. It's about time an effort is made to get some real teachers.

Im assuming im the culprit here. No. Not really. :) 

Youre absolutely right. I concede the point. Good luck! hope it works out well for you! 

 

 

Here is my cue,
If you want them to speak English, they must live in a English speaking environment... Have watched this for years.. Any questions? Told some close Thai friends of this, their children went to foreign countries, and amazingly enough they learned English... It is no different in America.... So what is there to explain?
kilosierra

 

I have one! 

 

How on earth am i having fluent English conversations with an American accented Chinese dude at my local gym who has never left China? Did i wake up fluent in Chinese and havent realised it yet? 

 

 

 

Trying to make out that individual cases or personal experience is representative of the whole picture just seems to indicate how little the poster knows about either the issues or making a valid argument on any subject

 

I feel i must be misunderstanding you. Are you actually supporting the point that one must live in a country where English is spoken as a first language in order to be able to speak it? Do we no longer believe in teaching and education to deliver genuine results within a classroom? Arent you a teacher? Arent you teaching English in a country where English is not in fact spoken as a native language?

Am i completely failing to grasp your sarcasm or something? Or do you genuinely think the point im making is of one amazing person in a sea of billions who pulled himself up against all odds into fluency?  (a position, i might point out, which would catastrophically undermine the counterpoint i would hope i was actually making - given that it suggests that this person was an anomaly and somehow achieved success in the language despite his useless and ineffective language environment...)

So let me assume the best and only that i wasnt clear with my flippancy and thus remove the misunderstanding.

This isnt just a one off super genius who broke the mold. This is based on an education system that seems rather good (on a non individual basis) at delivering extremely high levels of English competency. Of course, i live in a nice part of a big city, so perhaps im being spoiled by all these kids. Then again, i also taught downtown with the same results... so hard to know. Let me assure you though, we arent just talking 'good'. We are talking functionally fluent and can hold a extensive conversation with you on a subject of your choosing (so long as its obviously within their own references - youre not going to have a 12 year old explain string theory). Of course, mileage varies on an INDIVIDUAL basis, but obviously  im actually not talking about individuals. Im talking about one person who is INDICATIVE of an entire educational system and its efficacy at delivering skilled English speakers. This random guy in the gym learned all his English from his schooling. Perhaps he supplemented it with movies or music for the whole accent part - or perhaps he did extra lessons from a native speaker. But it was all here, in China. What he didnt do though was move abroad. He learned his language thanks to the institutions that keep you and I in gainful employment.

His story, is the story of his education. He is honestly one of 100 i could tell you about. The standard of English in school here is rather high. Which can only lead me to conclude that the educational system here can in fact deliver results and that no, you dont need to live abroad to speak the language. So far from being a single isolated case, he is representative of an education system that does in fact deliver effective English. As a teacher, of course im not exactly shocked by this. Shouldnt it be a first principle of any subject teacher? If you didnt think you could teach your students your subject effectively, then why would you be a teacher?     

As i say, perhaps you felt i was using this person as an isolated example (despite this fundamentally undermining my point) and not paying any credit to the institutions that supported his learning. In which case this post should go some way to clearing this up. Or perhaps you do genuinely support the argument that English can only be learned in a country where its spoken as a first language in which case, well... you know... bit awkward... (:

 

Thats kinda the point though isnt it? You are within the law, but its actually things like this which lead to crackdowns and tightening of regulations. Its called a loophole. Loopholes are by their nature, legal. But against the spirit and intention of the law. You may well be a 'tourist' but its hard to imagine a 'tourist' living away from his native country for 9 months of the year (with up to 8 months - at least) being spent in a single country year after year. So im suggesting that perhaps you might be undermining your own point by proclaiming yourself 'a tourist' given that it might lead someone to ask the simple question: how is a tourist able to stay here for 2/3rds to 3/4s of the year... year after year? Arent they just defacto immigrants? 

 

You suggest i got on my soapbox unfairly. But your earlier dolphin/tuna comment followed by your rejoinder on those pesky teachers making it hard for everyone else, only told one side of the story. I offered simply a fair correction.I didnt bring it up out of the blue. I brought it up because you seemed to be under the impression that having to do a visa run was some kind of deliberate attempt to flout the law and work under the counter. I was correcting a point you yourself (flippantly) initiated.

 

Secondly, and in addition, the reason i brought up my degree wasnt to show you im qualified, but to offer evidence to back up the claim that i am making in correcting your position. If i want to undermine the implication that teachers selfishly caused this issue you may be facing (point 1) and that the only people with these problems are teachers without degrees, (point 2) then possession of my degree clearly illustrates that (point 1), this benefited me not a jot, and (point 2), as a teacher with said documents and totally willing to complete the visa process, i was being hindered by forces completely outside of my control. So again, it was entirely relevant. It not only undermined your claim that only teachers without degrees have problems. But also further advanced my point that employers appear to be in no hurry to make their employees legal. Thus all teachers will possibly have had to deal with this nonsense depending upon factors completely outside of their qualifications. 

 

This brings me to the last point. You also suggested that the in-out visa clampdown should stop 90% of the issues. Ive explained why it wont. Again, if its beneficial for the school to have their teacher exploit a visa loophole, then you can bet that they will do exactly this (see above). If it means giving them a week off once every 90 days (paid or unpaid) to do a full tourist run to the nearest Thai consulate handing out Double-entry tourist visas, then we are back at square one. Its a loophole. It will be looked at. And sooner no doubt rather than later. And the reason it will be looked at isnt because of the fly by night teacher, but because employers will try and find a way to flout legality through either a) hiring people ineligible for the visa, or hiring people eligible for a visa but for reasons on a case by case and instance by instance basis, appear reluctant to do so. So i hope you understand: im simply correcting your own rather cheeky points holding teachers to blame for a situation completely outside of their control. 

 

Who says what I'm doing is a loophole?  Only you, and other nosey westerners.  Show me where even once the Thai government has raised such a concern. You can't, because the opposite is actually true. They've gone out of their way to say real tourists continue to be welcome, meaning people who aren't working here and have their own funds.  They don't seem to care at all how long real tourists stays, so long as they're able to support themselves. Some nationalities even qualify for triple entry visas, which allow a stay of up to 270 days on a single visa.  Do you see yet?  The Thai government doesn't need you minding its business for it.  

 

"how is a tourist able to stay here for 2/3rds to 3/4s of the year... year after year? Arent they just defacto immigrants?"

 

No, they are not de facto immigrants, because their legal status doesn't change. If there was automatic residency for people staying consecutive years, who were being granted stay based on a set of criteria, and I was accumulating time toward residency as a tourist, THAT would be a loophole.  Also, you imply that because it isn't the norm, because most people don't have enough money to do what I'm doing, there's something inherently wrong about it That's just your own prejudice surfacing. Not my problem.                                   

 

Your interpretation of my analogy is off base. Tuna is not meant to be a condescending jab (they're actually majestic animals, a top predator and a delicacy in many cultures). Again, it's a question of being able to grasp the plot: the analogy is about a hunted animal (tuna as teacher) leading to the capture of another (dolphin as tourist), not species hierarchy. lol. 

 

Regardless of your situation, the simple truth is that by and large it's degreeless teachers who have the biggest visa headaches.  Moreover, no one's forcing anyone to stay and work illegally. There are any number of countries that treat their TEFLers better than Thailand.  You choose to stay here, and you choose to remain employed by people who don't respect you enough to get you legal. Don't whine to me about that. Put on your big boy pants and do something about it. Leave.  If not from the country than at the end of the term at least from the school.  There is no shortage of places hiring.

 

Likewise, if I can't stay legal on a tourist visa, I'm prepared to stay in another country. 

 

"You also suggested that the in-out visa clampdown should stop 90% of the issues. I've explained why it wont."

 

And I explained how it could: upon application for even a second tourist visa inside of twelve months, the applicant must show funds originating from outside the country. A bank statement will suffice, just like it does for retirees.  

 

Lastly, I couldn't disagree more with your last point. There's no way Thai schools are gonna give TEFLers one to two weeks off every three months. But time will tell, I guess.  

 

Welll, lets be honest. I couldnt care less what you do, or who the (official) person suggesting such a thing might be. But theyre going to suggest it and youre going to be caught up in it. Its coming. Loophole or er... well, its a loophole. Sorry you dont like that word.

And just as they didnt care less how many times you popped in and out of Cham Yeam, or just as they didnt care how many tourist visas you had in your passport, or how long you overstayed so they currently dont care what a tourist is. Youre right. But the point isnt right now. Its whats coming. And its coming BECAUSE the loophole is still open, its just shifted to tourist visas and (suitably timed) back to back entries.  You might find they suddenly feel a need to clarify the matter.  

Secondly, thank you! at last! a clear and resounding denial that you arent slagging off teachers just trying to do their job. Tuna are poor majestic animals, just like dolphins, caught up in... oh wait, you clearly couldnt hold that in for long. Next paragraph starts well, and then slides invariably into "well, its their own fault for taking the job!" So, you know. Kinda validates my reasons for my interjections then after all. It seems you are blaming teachers and holding them culpable for a visa circus that existed long before them, and will continue to exist after they leave because, as i keep pointing it out, teachers arent the problem here. Its the employers failing to provide the paperwork and passing this problem down to the teachers. 

Fortunately, its far more annoying, because these employers are in turn beholden to an immigration process that is a) sporadic; b.) unenforced; c) convoluted; d) expensive; e) drawn out; f) overly restrictive and absolutely in no way keeping with the reality of the wider TEFL market. Clearly the incentive on employers is to ignore the law and go the much more efficient route of sending the teacher off on a visa run. And so long as a loophole exists allowing them to do this, they'll go this way every time because its the rational thing for them to do. Even now! I know, right!?? 

Third. And slightly on the point, I teach in China now. I did leave. I left for several reasons, but i promise you, having 7 Cambodian visas taking up my brand new passport pages whilst being stonewalled by both the agency i worked for and the school i worked for, were at the forefront of my decision. I dont need this nonsense. I can work elsewhere, im legal as i said, so why carry on bashing my head against a wall? Of course it took more than a few months for the penny to really drop and realise that the procrastination was potentially endless, but why wouldnt i assume they'd be sorting it out and their assurances that theyre just waiting for the director to be in school/sign/someone to DRIVE the papers to the school? Im potentially legal. Hell, i even have an apostille on both my degree certificate and my criminal records check. Im supra-legal! Surely its in their interests to sort this out? Oh, wait, no it isnt (see above). 

Fourth. Oh yes they will! You bet they will. I had a clause in my contract that allowed me to take up to 2 days off per month to do a visa run. I was also allowed to take as many days i needed if i planned on completing a full tourist visa run (but would lose pay for any time i took over those two days). Transport would be paid by the company, visa would be paid for by me. If you dont think agencies or schools will have more up-to-date clauses prepared reflecting those changes (4-5 working days every two months - with any extra time borne by employee) as standard cost of doing business with schools, youre naive. 

Finally, the whole "showing finances" had everything to do with visa exempt stamps and nothing to do with back to back tourist visas. So once again, no it wont. People will still be sent to get their tourist visa by the school (at cost to the employee), and the loophole will be put under the spotlight. NamkangMan makes the excellent point that you wont be the first to have thought of this. And now that the visa exempt loophole is being shut down, those people, like yourself, or even those scurrilous teachers like me, will now switch their attention to other means. And the first and most obvious one will be the Tourist visa. Perhaps it will involve simply a hike in the price, or perhaps a maximum amount of days/renewals. Possibly it will involve a trip back to your home country in the future plus cancellation stamp. Or perhaps just a good old fashioned decently equipped bank account, but its going to be looked at soon. So fingers crossed. I want the loophole closed so employers will have to actually sort out the non-immi-B visa quickly and efficiently, and you want it closed so that teachers dont abuse it leading to further restrictions. Peace at last! peace at last! 

Thats kinda the point though isnt it? You are within the law, but its actually things like this which lead to crackdowns and tightening of regulations. Its called a loophole. Loopholes are by their nature, legal. But against the spirit and intention of the law. You may well be a 'tourist' but its hard to imagine a 'tourist' living away from his native country for 9 months of the year (with up to 8 months - at least) being spent in a single country year after year. So im suggesting that perhaps you might be undermining your own point by proclaiming yourself 'a tourist' given that it might lead someone to ask the simple question: how is a tourist able to stay here for 2/3rds to 3/4s of the year... year after year? Arent they just defacto immigrants? 

You suggest i got on my soapbox unfairly. But your earlier dolphin/tuna comment followed by your rejoinder on those pesky teachers making it hard for everyone else, only told one side of the story. I offered simply a fair correction.I didnt bring it up out of the blue. I brought it up because you seemed to be under the impression that having to do a visa run was some kind of deliberate attempt to flout the law and work under the counter. I was correcting a point you yourself (flippantly) initiated.

Secondly, and in addition, the reason i brought up my degree wasnt to show you im qualified, but to offer evidence to back up the claim that i am making in correcting your position. If i want to undermine the implication that teachers selfishly caused this issue you may be facing (point 1) and that the only people with these problems are teachers without degrees, (point 2) then possession of my degree clearly illustrates that (point 1), this benefited me not a jot, and (point 2), as a teacher with said documents and totally willing to complete the visa process, i was being hindered by forces completely outside of my control. So again, it was entirely relevant. It not only undermined your claim that only teachers without degrees have problems. But also further advanced my point that employers appear to be in no hurry to make their employees legal. Thus all teachers will possibly have had to deal with this nonsense depending upon factors completely outside of their qualifications. 

This brings me to the last point. You also suggested that the in-out visa clampdown should stop 90% of the issues. Ive explained why it wont. Again, if its beneficial for the school to have their teacher exploit a visa loophole, then you can bet that they will do exactly this (see above). If it means giving them a week off once every 90 days (paid or unpaid) to do a full tourist run to the nearest Thai consulate handing out Double-entry tourist visas, then they will do exactly this and we are back at square one. Its a loophole. It will be looked at. And sooner no doubt rather than later. And the reason it will be looked at isnt because of the fly by night teacher, but because employers will try and find a way to flout legality through either a) hiring people ineligible for a work permit and encouraging them to do these back to back runs, or  b ) hiring people eligible for a visa but for reasons on a case by case and instance by instance basis, appear reluctant to do so, thus encouraging them to do back to back visa runs. So i hope you understand: im simply correcting your own rather cheeky points holding teachers to blame for a situation completely outside of their control. 

Here is my cue,
If you want them to speak English, they must live in a English speaking environment... Have watched this for years.. Any questions? Told some close Thai friends of this, their children went to foreign countries, and amazingly enough they learned English... It is no different in America.... So what is there to explain?
kilosierra

I have one! 

How on earth am i having fluent English conversations with an American accented Chinese dude at my local gym who has never left China? Did i wake up fluent in Chinese and havent realised it yet? 

Im totally on board of course. Well, in a couple of years. But to be truly valuable it needs to carry beyond Thailand. I think realistically we all know that the enforcement of B.ed/M.ed will never rightly happen. I mean, they might try and flirt with it, but theres very little chance of it being enforced.

So to be truly valuable internationally, it needs to not direct itself on those requirements. They will be softened or phased out. And for an 18 month course (i was kinda hoping for 12 to be honest), then you need serious accreditation. I dont really want to use it in Thailand to be honest. I want to use it to garner a cheap bit of career advancement saving me a trip back home and a fortune in tuition and living costs. Arguably im not your main market then, but i am representative of perhaps a wider market looking to stay in Asia, advance their career, and do it on the (relative) cheap (mainly from living costs to be honest). 

 

Absolutely true. The OP himself has stated clearly in his first post that he's misusing the visa to effectively live in Thailand. If he wants to live in Thailand then he needs to go through the correct channels. Its amazing how he thinks his shit doesnt stink because he's not working illegally as if that makes some kind of huge difference. He also doesnt understand that teachers here are sent on these stupid visa runs because of their employers reluctance to either fork over the cash for a non-immi B or just terrified at the prospect of organising the relevant documents (think of it like a carrot to keep the poor schmuck on an endless 'probation period' and on their toes).

 

No one wants to work illegally, but this is Thailand, and the advantages are usually in the hands of the Thai employers over the employee. So if its in their interest to keep you on a short leash and withhold the visa for reasons... then they can and will do this. Ask yourself this. Why on earth would any employee want to be illegal and have no recourse or protection against their employer? 

 

If they are serious, then the next thing to be looked at will be the back to back single/double entry tourist visa. Because you can bet your ass that youre local backpacking tefler is now popping to Laos or Phnom Penh and doing exactly this every 60 or 90 days. And unlike the OP  theyll be doing it because its in their employers interest to keep them working illegally, not because theyre trying to game the system.  

 

 

Show us where it officially states a max limit to the number of days a tourist can spend in the kingdom.  Oh that's right, you can't, because there is no limit. I'm doing nothing illegal.  You're the one who needs to get over himself, trying to interpret policies here that the Thais themselves haven't implemented. 

 

And you're also wrong thinking I don't know what a TEFLer goes through.  Before giving up on the Thai education system and embracing the tourist life, I taught at both a technical college and at the pratom level.  I never had problems with visas.  And the only teachers I come across who do have visa issues are those without degrees, i.e., those who are here illegally.  

 

It's ridiculous how you direct your ire at me though, when it's the very people you're sticking up for who caused this issue to pop up on the radar in the first place.  Your argument would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic.  Run along now.   

 

Three quick corrections:

1. What ire? 

2. I have all the documents my side to legally work in Thailand as a teacher. 

3. I like the clampdowns. They close loopholes that were used AGAINST me whether by schools, agencies, or supply and demand (wages and conditions from the mass of native english speaking talent that can be drawn upon utilising said loopholes). Alas, i think the back to back tourist visa is also a loophole, and until that one is shut down, teachers with the right credentials will still be 'encouraged' to do exactly that. 

 

Absolutely true. The OP himself has stated clearly in his first post that he's misusing the visa to effectively live in Thailand. If he wants to live in Thailand then he needs to go through the correct channels. Its amazing how he thinks his shit doesnt stink because he's not working illegally as if that makes some kind of huge difference. He also doesnt understand that teachers here are sent on these stupid visa runs because of their employers reluctance to either fork over the cash for a non-immi B or just terrified at the prospect of organising the relevant documents (think of it like a carrot to keep the poor schmuck on an endless 'probation period' and on their toes).

 

No one wants to work illegally, but this is Thailand, and the advantages are usually in the hands of the Thai employers over the employee. So if its in their interest to keep you on a short leash and withhold the visa for reasons... then they can and will do this. Ask yourself this. Why on earth would any employee want to be illegal and have no recourse or protection against their employer? 

 

If they are serious, then the next thing to be looked at will be the back to back single/double entry tourist visa. Because you can bet your ass that youre local backpacking tefler is now popping to Laos or Phnom Penh and doing exactly this every 60 or 90 days. And unlike the OP  theyll be doing it because its in their employers interest to keep them working illegally, not because theyre trying to game the system.  

 

He does not appear to be living here full time. He looks like a tourist to me. He has never left and re-entered on the same day.

Trips for over 2 weeks out of the country and then 3 months out.

 

He clearly is. His intention is to continually return to thailand. Anyone could take a 'holiday' for two weeks in Phnom Penh and then pop back whilst continuing to live and work in the country. And i reckon thats exactly what will be happening. 

Absolutely true. The OP himself has stated clearly in his first post that he's misusing the visa to effectively live in Thailand. If he wants to live in Thailand then he needs to go through the correct channels. Its amazing how he thinks his shit doesnt stink because he's not working illegally as if that makes some kind of huge difference. He also doesnt understand that teachers here are sent on these stupid visa runs because of their employers reluctance to either fork over the cash for a non-immi B or just terrified at the prospect of organising the relevant documents (think of it like a carrot to keep the poor schmuck on an endless 'probation period' and on their toes).

No one wants to work illegally, but this is Thailand, and the advantages are usually in the hands of the Thai employers over the employee. So if its in their interest to keep you on a short leash and withhold the visa for reasons... then they can and will do this. Ask yourself this. Why on earth would any employee want to be illegal and have no recourse or protection against their employer? 

If they are serious, then the next thing to be looked at will be the back to back single/double entry tourist visa. Because you can bet your ass that youre local backpacking tefler is now popping to Laos or Phnom Penh and doing exactly this every 60 or 90 days. And unlike the OP  theyll be doing it because its in their employers interest to keep them working illegally, not because theyre trying to game the system.  

I dunno why everybody is mad. You learned a few important things from the OP:

1. The OP clearly hasnt studied all that hard. (2 years on a paid for course with actual lessons?). 

2. He still passed. 

3. The bar is therefore ridiculously low.

4. The ed-visa is still an option for anyone looking at staying reasonably long term with the minimum of fuss.  

ummmmmmmmmmmmmm... not to remind you, but as a teacher, youre supposed to take that whole "be a strong moral example to your students" at least a little seriously. A little discretion perhaps? 

Which brings me to another point... ive always had nothing but sympathy for people like wilcopops. The dude takes his teaching seriously. He wants to teach (i assume wico is a 'he'), but doesnt have the degree. Its evident that this sudden tightening is unfair, and people like him should be grandfathered in. Once you have your TEFL AND x-years of classroom experience, youre going to be a skilled teacher. The degree becomes irrelevant. Two years classroom experience in Thailand should be ample time to prove your skills and commitment. I believe this is a fair compromise. 

But the tone of the piece above makes me shudder. What is being said on the surface clearly contrasts with the message. And that message is "drop the bar, lets use teaching as a means to stay in Thailand!" It's completely wrong headed. Your duty of concern should be 100% to those kids. I genuinely worry that if the visa requirements are dropped it WILL become the next ed-visa. Schools need teachers, this is undeniable. And with the visa clampdowns elsewhere, a non-immi B is obviously going to look attractive to those wishing for a long stay in Thailand.

Schools that spent money in sorting this out for you will suddenly find their formerly charming, diligent, polite teacher now requesting three weeks off here, or phoning in 'sick' or suddenly mysteriously incapable of turning up to work. This will hurt not only the students of that school, but also the reputation and long standing future of native English teachers in Government schools. I can only see bad things from this because people who have no interest in teaching and only want the visa to sustain their lives in Thailand will be sorely tempted to exploit these schools for their own personal and selfish ends. 

Its okay, it means useless in Spanish :) 

In both Korea and Japan they use the expression. 

Korea: Hwaiting! 

Japan: Fight-o! 

So dont dismiss the effects of Engrish and popular culture. Its just slang, innit! The idea that it might just be a mistake is incorrect. Look at the cover of any magazine in Japan marketed directly at young 20 something women. Youll find at least one or two semi-incomprehensible phrases. It's not to test their readers English ability, but to market slogans that sound cool and above all 'feel' English at them. Its about cache. And English speaks of cosmopolitanism and a worldly outlook and this of course taps into how they see themselves. Ah, Barthes, were it not for a rogue milk float... he'd love this world of signs.  

To be honest, he did say 'IN teaching' rather than 'a TEACHER'. Curious distinction. But its all by the by anyway. The reason quaified teachers are very good at their job is because they have extensive supervised training. They dont just pass their exams then get sent out into the wild blue yonder to teach Not only do they have a full year of practical on the job training. After they garner that qualification they (usually) have a further two years of mentoring. They also have professional development seminars as a core part of their ongoing training. 

Now compare: 

Your average ESLer gets plonked in a school in front of a class and told to teach. 

They have no training. Training comes from the job. When they ask for advice or details on what to teach, theyre told "youre doing fine, dont worry! Teach them anything!". No one is supervising you. No one particularly cares what you do. Are the kids generally happy? Does it 'sound like' English is going on? Yay! well done you, oh great teacher Onizuka!

The seminars and 'training' they do have (a once a year, 2 day affair if even that), will be more experienced ESLers saying little more than 'well, i tried this, and it worked! have you thought about trying this?' Youll get the occasional class on learning types or classroom management, but the classroom management seminars wil alwas end up in just a bunch of annoyed teachers bitching and complaining, whilst the learning types will have no practical value and no hands on component, making it arguably useless. You might as well be reading wikipedia on it. Theres just no feasible way to follow through and apply these things in your classroom because theres no one supervising you or checking your lesson plans and asking you those pertinent questions. Training is purely for the government to say 'theyre trained!' rather than an exercise in genuine professional development.  

For actual ongoing training and development, you need to front the cash and take the time out of your job to complete it. It will also be very much unpaid because theres no way in hell your school or BOE is either paying for it, or accepting you taking a month off during term time to finish it. If you want training, you need to sacrifice your meager savings, and youll be doing it with absolutely no guarantee that its even going to push you up the ladder.

This ladder is of course notoriously built on market demands. Something as innocuous as the Kpop boom coinciding with the western recession helped put Korea on the map, and this in turn has driven wages and benefits down. Its also an image driven industry with education a strong THIRD place behind image and cost. Are you a young 20 something fresh out of university and willing to work for 2.1mill? Welcome to Korea! Are you a middle aged guy with 15 years of experience and wonderful reports, but now on the top tier band pay scale for EPIK resulting in us having to pay you 2.6mill? Do you look a bit... 'scary or 'intimidating'? Are you in any way not white? sorry dude. We can get this cute white girl from the US for 2.1! Sure she doesnt know how to teach, but thats the job of the Korean teachers to be honest!

And so the cycle of untrained idiots teaching untrained idiots continues unabated. 

This market is not an education market. I sound bitter perhaps, but im not at all!  Im still very cute and to be honest, it genuinely helps me as much as it hurts me (though i am moving into my late thirties...eeep!). Id love to suggest that we are as competent and professional as teachers with QTS, but (on the whole) we arent. The real heart of the issue though is whether thats the fault of the individual teacher at the end of the day, or whether its the fault of an industry that offers only the most token nod to education whilst treating ESL teachers like a commodity on a conveyor belt. And its genuinely understandable, they have no incentive to train, invest or develop our skills because this will probably lead to us dumping them for another hotter school offering something sexier. The market is what it is. Its a weird little world. Comparing it to Public education is a massive misnomer that misses the huge differences involved.

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He has brought fame to the school. What they dont say is that a foreign immigrant gas mastered thai writing and shown through his diligence and dedication to study how lazy thai students are. Hats off to this burmese kid. Maybe somewhere in this country a thai student will see the shame of having a foreigner do better than a thai writing in thai language.

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By God it didn't take long did it till someone came along and slagged off an entire Nations children because one young hard working student who is not considered Thai won a prize! Do you know anything about the school work life of children aged 5-16 in this country? My 6 year old daughter currently has an hour or more of homework every single night, more homework than a kid in the UK the same age would get in a month. EVERY night (and that is without the time she takes to practice reading in Thai and English). Her mates have to go to 2 hrs extra classes on a Saturday AND Sunday, I simply refuse to cave in and send my daughter as she has little enough time to be a child as it is. She has also just had exams! Studying for exams at 6 years old! Do not tell me Thai kids are lazy because of one gifted young boy!!

Back to the OP, I was disappointed by this statement

Although born and grew up in Thailand, Yaza is considered as a Burmese immigrant.

Thailand really needs to sort itself out in respect of immigration, birth rights etc etc.

Congratulations to the young boy, his achievements will bring untold pride to his parents if he is from a poor back ground. I hope he continues to have the chance to develop and achieve.

Apperently you dont read the news very often about thai students. They have the most classroom hours per week than any other country. The families pay more per annum for education than most in the world. Their testing skills are beloe average than most kids in the world and the percentage of students who can read and write their own language even after graduation from universities is riduculiuously low. Who cares how many classes they take if they dont practise and if they are not diligent and dedicated and try. The Burmese boy went above and beyond what the normal thai kid is willing to do and it shows now with this contest

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whaaaaaat???

Most classroom hours?

What?

Lets see... (all middle school):

Japan: Start at 7.00ish, Assembly, home room and pre-chool clubs. classes begin around 8.10, 4 lessons in the morning at 50 minutes per lesson. 12.40ish classes end. Lunchy! 1.30, classes begin again. Usually 2 more classes. Class ends at around 3.10. Cleaning time for ten to twenty minutes. Then after school activities for M1 and M2. These last until around 5.30ish. One Saturday a month of extra classes (usually just sports though). Grade three students will usually end up going to Juku (private after school classes).

Korea: All lessons were 40 minutes. Students arrive at 8 to 8.20. Actual classes begin at 9. Four lessons in the morning. Lunch time around 12.30ish. One hour lunch break then another 4 lessons in the afternoon. Classes also on a Saturday morning. School finishes at 5pm on the dot. (kids almost en masse get an hour at home before being shuffled to Hagwon until 9 or 10pm - they often have 2 hours homework on top of this per day).

China: Kids are at school around 7.30am. Classes begin at 8 and are 45 minutes. They have two lessons, then a reasonable break (usually mass exercise - running around the race track) then another two lessons. Lunch is 1 hour 20 minutes OFFICIALLY, but almost every school seems to squeeze in one more (unofficial) class after the 30 minutes allocated for the eating part of the lunch break. They then have four more classes. break is standard 10 minutes between classes. Everyone goes home around 5. No honest idea what happens to P6/M3/M6 students because as Foreign English teachers we rarely see them (theyre too busy for "mickey mouse" classes like ours, (i imagine the argument goes)). Students are LOADED with homework. Seriously loaded.

Thailand: Kids get to school around 7.30. Actual classes begin around 8.30. Classes are 1 hour long. There are no designated breaks between the classes (a personal bug bear of mine), Lunch was 50 minutes. They had 2 classes in the afternoon. At 3.30 we all went home. There were some after school clubs, but it seemed entirely voluntary compared to the Japanese system where you HAD to be in one of those clubs and HAD to attend for the full duration.

By my reckoning the kids in Korea have it BRUTAL for time, followed closely by China. Japan has a few more 'team building' type lessons and arguably has one of the longest school days (though not all traditional classroom based - though certainly mandatory), with Thailand actually propping up the rest of the table with the lightest school day.

Dont get me wrong. My own school day consisted of:

Classes start around 8.30am. Lessons were 40 minutes Do 2 lessons, then a 20 minute break. Then do two lessons followed by a lengthy lunch break 12.00-1.40. Come back. Do another 2 lessons, then a break, then another 2. Off home at 3.30ish with barely any homework. Have some tea, then out to play. Pretty easy life. I love doing the time line to wind up my students So im not criticising a light day (comparatively). It also doesnt necessarily impact on education so long as its well structured and organised. Chinese students for example are WASTED by around 7th period and really could do with a bit of fresh air like their Japanese counterparts to break it all up. Also the 7 and 8 classes in Korea were really just a Tuesday and Thursday thing.

...because China has dropped English en masse and in no way sees it as a gateway to opportunity for their children. Thats why theres so few jobs in China these days... :) 

If it helps, the food is kinda rubbish too. Too oily and frequently makes me sick. 

Lots of really nasty habits as well. Fancy going to your local swimming pool? Enjoy the ambiance of just about everyone having a smoke when they aint swimming; be it at the side of the pool, in the showers after, or just in the dressing room. I shudder to think at just how much piss im swallowing every day. The only relief is that its an olympic pool so the kids tend to stay away (2m deep all the way). But, there will be urine! 

Still nothing quite beat the moment when in Mcdonalds, a mum whipped down the pants of her 6 year old and had him piss into a bottle instead of taking him the ten feet to the <redacted> toilet.

Apparently im supposed to be used to all this by now. So its not heaven.  

Right now i honest to god, hand on heart would not even remotely recommend a single friend of mine to go teach in Thailand. I think the only circumstance i MIGHT consider it, would be if they were over the hill, in their twilight years, unemployable in almost every other ESL market, and kinda ready for a nice new life experience. Actually, thats making me change the hard line in my opening statement a little. 

If youre under 55 though, have a degree (or dont have a degree - ive seen people here without degree's and whizzing about somehow with a tefl), id just go to China. 

1. Better pay.

2. Organised and CLEAR visa policy. YOu dont step foot in the country without that Z-visa. Well, you can, but you still need to go back home to do your visa because apparently shit changed in July last year enforcing this. 

3. SO MANY JOBS. 

4. SO MANY JOBS STILL in the big cities. 

5. Benefits package (flight, accommodation and severance still normal). 

6. The kids are kinda good. I mean i live in a nice big city so im kinda skewed given that ive yet to step foot out of it, but the kids here are bright, and the parents really value education. 

7. You can still work in just about every field. A bit of luck, a nice contact, and bish-bosh, youre now teaching at a legit international school. And that experience is VALUABLE for an ESLer. 

8. Bosses give you shit, of course. The scheduling can be tough, but you get GOOD at your job which can help eek out your 'career' a few more years. 

9. Lots to do and see. Its china. Its also fairly cheap. 

10. Pay is around 8000 for a reasonable gig with benefits. In a city, life costs about 3000/month. Thats 500 quid/800US squirreled away on holidays around asia or just savings for the next move. 

11. Chinese people are kinda nice. 

The big ones though are the visa changes, the degree requirements, and the overall contempt for English teachers in Thailand. Guess what? You tell someone youre a teacher in China and BOOM!!! Instant respect. Its like being a postie all over again. The amount of people that would cheerfully greet you with a 'morning postie!' when youre just buying something in a shop after your shift was awesome. Its that same feeling here. As an experienced ESLer in Asia, whenever someone asks me what i do, i always sheepishly (and ashamedly) reply "Teacher". And shocking enough, their face lights up! Perhaps its because i live in a city with a LOT of foreign oil workers. But its a solid job with genuine respect. Thanks Kong Zi! 

Dont get me wrong, its not something i WHOLLY recommend in my heart. Plenty wrong with it compared to Korea for example, but for a safe gig, lots of options, and a genuine pay cheque that will carry you at least BEYOND the month you receive it (for thems on the bottom rung that is), then it kicks the crap out of Thailand. The extra restrictions coming in over the past month (qualifications and visa enforcement) really make me laugh at Thailand right now. Its honestly a massive joke. Unless you are DEAD SET on Thailand, i cant think of a single reason why anyone would bother taking the chance. If youre a public school teacher by trade though, seriously... why? Maybe if you live on a beach? Or maybe if youve got a MASSIVE kitty of extra funds and this is just a little extra on the side for your retirement (or semi-retirement), but for someone making a career out of this? And having to bounce through so many stupid hoops? That are constantly liable to change or with varying degrees of enforcement? And all for shit pay? For reals? 

Good luck Thailand! All the people forced out by incompetent visa processing or insane restrictions (m.ed? For 30,000? Are you out of your heads?) will now be applying for jobs in the countries around Thailand, and theyll be thinking "holy crap! why didnt i do this earlier?" Throw in that those remaining now get to enjoy the pleasure of contacting immigration within 24 hours of moving away from their residency, and yay! more stupid edicts set to drive most rational people just trying to make a living, perhaps see the world a bit (many of us are here not just to teach but to see the world after all) and try and keep some savings for the next silly visa/employment change. And all this in a place where its already a very difficult place to make a genuine living. Were it not for people i know being screwed by all this, id be laughing at the self-destructive stupidity of it all. Instead ill have to just shake my head, perplexed that no one appears to be looking further than their nose when they make this shit up. Seriously, good luck people trying to fill jobs. Good luck to the immigration people having to completely back track on every stupid decision theyve made in the last month when schools unsurprisingly start putting pressure on their local immi office because shockingly no one appears to be biting from the hi-so teaching fraternity with their M.ed.'s. They appear to have moved to Japan and Korea or Saudi arabia where they get paid a bucketload for their qualifications. I guarantee you, if Bruce gets round to offering the course, ill be doing the exact same thing as will everyone else who hasnt accidentally/deliberately ended up with family thai's in the beautiful country of Thailand. 

Dont get me wrong. I like the place. Its nice. Dont really like the whole "life is cheap" crap that comes with it mind you. But the people are 'friendly' and the food is amazing. Life is cheap (in the non mortality sense), sorta... and the beaches are lovely. The kids are incredibly sweet as well. And i genuinely think that (almost all of) the Thai teachers bust their ass to be the best because they want their students to have genuine life opportunities and they give just as much of a shit as any teacher anywhere else in the world. I wont slam thai teachers at all. But its just not even close to market value. And since China has just SO many opportunities, no ESLer down on their luck should really be struggling in a shit paying job in BF nowhere living in a hovel shared by geckos, ants, frogs, centipedes and snakes, when they could be in China on sensible pay and in a normal apartment with actual amenities. (actual mileage may vary of course - but as i say, jobs in all the big cities still exist, are still plentiful and arent ruined like Japan and korea by mass competition and the invariable race to the gutter with pay and conditions).

Echy thump, i dont stop banging on about this im afraid. Sorry. Dont know why i cant shut up about it. I guess its a part of my brain that just screams at Thai Visa... "But... whyyyyyy?????!??!?... Why dont you just move? Why dont you just laugh at this insanity, and move somewhere less insane?" So i feel utterly compelled to point out the alternatives :)   

Cheer up scamp, i think the tone already set the stage. :)

Also, shouldnt you be more alarmed that for the purpose of this edict watermelon and melons are also 'considered' to be fruits. I thought they already were! 

 

Because probably that one 'whitey' can speak English better than both qualified Filipino teachers. Generally the language skills of the Filipinos in lower to middle tier schools is lacking and sometimes their knowledge : example. A carrot is a fruit. As told to my M5 students.
so for conversation classes native or near native speakers are better (some Filipinos are near native speakers. The one that said a carrot is a fruit for example)

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A carrot is a fruit. Well it was. Or was it just anti EU propaganda from the sun or something? Anyways, its a fun story, so ill tell you it. 

Heres why: Back around the early naughties the EU decided to make an edict on just what percentage of fruit qualified a 'jam' as a jam. The only problem was that Portugal raised the rather curious point that one of their central jam industries was the manufacturing of carrot jam. Given that the carrot is a vegetable, this would make it impossible for them to adhere to the new regulations. A meeting was convened and the humble carrot was given the legal status of a fruit to allow the law to pass with as little amendments as possible. 

The more you know! (or remember salaciously). 

Oh Emmm Geee!!! 

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32001L0113&from=en

 

ANNEX III

 

A. DEFINITIONS

For the purposes of this Directive, the following definitions shall apply:

1. Fruit:    ... for the purposes of this Directive, tomatoes, the edible parts of rhubarb stalks, carrots, sweet potatoes, cucumbers, pumpkins, melons and water-melons are considered to be fruit,

TLDR Version:

Are you a second language learner?

Did you attain Fluency?

How did you personally learn and retain vocabulary whilst remaining motivated and interested?

Are you a teacher?

Are you actually good at teaching?

What methods or techniques have you learned to make your students retain vocabulary outside of simply sending them home to write the word out 10 times and then shouting at them or scowly facing them when they dont do it?

Are you someone with a good idea about learning and retaining vocabulary?

Can you tell me it? I promise to not make any money from it. Im just trying to give a few kids around elementary and early middle school some new techniques to remember their vocab when i invariably send them home to drill it.

Im trying to help my 1-on-1 students with vocab drilling. They age from 9-14. The pace is, i feel, a bit hefty (15-20 words per day). Students have between 4- 6 hours of class and the absolute last thing they want is homework. But we have to give them it (and i dont mind to be honest, since it has proven results). But i dearly would love some new strategies. Im not exactly a brilliant language learner myself and lack genuine creativity. I write and repeat. Thats it. Drill drill. But i would love to offer more techniques to try and help my students keep up with the pace a little and possibly help motivate them or give them a sense of accomplishment. Ive done bribery (10x tests with 80% and above = present - each test above 80% = sticker). It works of course, but it still doesnt get to the meat and potatoes. Ive tried thematising the vocab, but we're kinda talking near fluent or semi-fluent kids here and the work theyre dealing with doesnt lend itself to generic concepts like 'animals', 'things around the house' and the like. Its more comprehension passages and essays. Ive tried organising their work by spending time in class with synonyms, translations and a sentences for illustration. It looks nice, and it helps, but its still not getting to the heart of it (its also a massive time sink).

That heart is really what they do to learn and retain the word (and then not forget it a week later).

For most of these tykes, they either simply write it out over and over until it sticks, or they say it over and over until it sticks and then go to the next word. Some will argue that writing a sentence works, or that writing a story using 8 or 9 words from the list is a brilliant way to remember. But the test next day often shows them up a bit.

Ive tried pushing them onto flashcards, in particular ive tried the whole three box technique. Wait, ill explain it:

Have the kids make their flashcards, put them all in the one box, they shake the box up and pull a card out at random, if they get it right, it goes in the left box, if they get it wrong, it goes in the right box. They do the right box every time until its at or near zero. They do the left box every 5 or 6 times they do the right box just to make sure it wasnt a fluke. This way they see the words they dont know more frequently. Basic stuffs. But any time i do it in class it actually SLOWS everything down to a crawl. I can come out of 40 minutes with them learning about 6 or 7 of the words and still being stuck on the same three-five in various order they were at the beginning. If only they had a phone! Id just send them to quizlet! But no no. Pity, they freaking love playing games. Plenty of flashcard programmes that work on the same method.

Doing it their way is of course fine, but theyre soon about to be pushed toward ielts or SSAT and this will mean some serious vocabulary loading (depending in part on parental time frames and expectations). Those techniques will either be costly in terms of time, or absolutely useless in terms of retention (by the time they hit the 9th or tenth word, theyll start to forget that first one if they do it sequentially). So im trying to preempt it all with some new techniques. They dont have to use any of them, but just hoping the more strategies i can offer them, the more techniques they can deploy to alleviate their own boredom of either doing the same thing over again, or mistakenly trying to drill one style when another one would, in this one case, be a better solution.

Just looking to you guys (or to anyone who successfully studied another language) to explain their strategies when the pressure started building a little. Its something i lack a certain degree of personal experience on. I know drilling and repetition are essential, dont get me wrong, im not looking for a shortcut. Im just looking for something that LOOKS like a shortcut if you get me ...Something they might enjoy doing a bit more than copying or mouthing out the words.