zhangxifu

6 hours ago, khunPer said:

Thanks for your comment, and no, I don't change anything.

 

I talk in general, not specific of "my house", if not clearly mentioned.
 

If you read carefully what I say, and check the quoted links, a new build house ownership cannot be registered. However, if a house is resold, and the documentation I mentioned in an earlier post is in place, separate ownership without land can be registered for a house.

 

You cannot buy a chanote title land, or any other titled land, as foreigner – only if you are one the 40+ million baht investors having an investor visa – so what you say about that you "only buy janots I can sell later without third party's help" makes no sense to me at all. Perhaps you can specify, what it is you can buy, and sell, and how?

 

I'm not sure you understand, or read, what I post, or perhaps I don't say it clear enough?

One can secure the land under one's house in various ways, for example by a usufruct servitude, supplemented with a superficies agreement, or by way of using other form of contracts.
 

You say it sounds like a "terrible investment"; however most of us building a house for a "home in paradise" don't consider it as an investment, its a home to live in. But looking at the long-term side of "investment", you can compare it with renting a similar home. Typically a rent is between 8 percent and 12 percent a year of the cost. So most, if not all, financial figures taking into consideration, after 15 years continuous rent, you have paid for your home, but you don't "own" anything. "Investing" in a house in Thailand, in same comparison, you "rent for free" after 15 years; a 30-year land lease under a house can make sense here.

 

If I should have rented a house similar to the one I built – and now I talk about "my house" – and at similar location, I would have paid it all in less than 10 years, i.e. it is paid by now, also the cost for land under the house. So any price I could sell it for now, if I so wished, would be mark-up compared to renting, also after taxation. Actually, in real terms I can get more for my house now, than it costed me, so it has not that bad an "investment".

 

But – because there is a "but" – in some cases "investing" in property can be business. Property is mainly down to location, and location, and location. So with the right location you can often resell with a mark-up – in the part of Thailand where I live, and especially if the property is in the upper end of the price range – a 100 percent mark up is possible within a 10-year period, in some cases more in shorter time; often such a deal includes some level of control of the land under the house.

????

Thanks! I know very well what I can own. The issue here was that your said that you own your house, which is not true. You have built a house on a leased land that you can use, in the best case, as long as you need it. Regarding selling your house on someones land, I don't see why would anyone pay you one baht for that. You could be demanded more costs at any time though by the real owner of the house and the land, who or what ever it is. Have fun with all that but you do not own a house in the general meaning of the word. Other issue was the gov office. I am very sure they don't see you owning the house at all also. It kinda goes for everything in life, that if you need to prove something with thousands of words of legalities, when there is a simple solution, name in janot, it's not really real.

1 hour ago, khunPer said:

Thanks for your reply.

 

A chanute (janot) title deed is the highest level of land deeds – i.e. real free hold – a house build with permission from the land owner, i.e. superficies agreement or like, on leased or rented, or otherwise servitude, land rights, is not part of the land title deed.

 

Yes, depending of the text in the agreement with the land owner, you might need to pay for removing any construction, or like, you made on the land.

 

The land title under my house is chanute. I'm not a land squatter, and even a lower title deed would let the owner permission to issue a superfices agreement for me. There was a house on the land, before mine, build when the land has "nor sor sarm" (NS3) title deed. The title deed were later upgraded to chanute title deed. I also got permission from the local tessa ban office to remove that house, when I applied for building permission for "my house".

 

However, land squatters actually can have habitation rights in Thailand, depending of how long time they have been squatting the land. That is why its important to show that a land is used.

Rights are depending of the title on the deed, you can read more about all the titles here.

 

A usufruct servitude can be granted for life of the beneficiary – but cannot be inherited – or for a specified length of time, but not exceeding 30-years. The lifetime usufruct can therefore run longer time than 30 years. 

You can read more about usufruct here.

 

No, to your last paragraph, a legal house owner's name might not appear on a chanute title deed, or any other title deeds, as title deeds are issued for the land. But your might be able to register a house (only), when its resold.

and

Source and read more: "Buying and owning a house in Thailand".

 

You can actually sell a foreign owned house, but the right to use the land is limited to whatever agreement has been made for the land under the house. If you look in the classified property section, you will find houses for sale both on leased land, and on freehold land, i.e. a chanute title deed. Remember that only few foreigners actually can own land in Thailand; you need to obtain an "investor visa" – use to be 40 million baht invested in specified items – and you will be limited to one land plot of no more than 1 rai, and to be used for habitation (a home) only.

 

The house book, whatever color, has nothing to do with the land title deed. Title deeds are issued by the land office, whilst house books – and building permissions – are issued by the tessa ban office.

Source, including information about owning a house, can be found here.

????

You keep changing your story all the time. Now you said your house without land can be registered at Land Dept. Before you said there is no document stating ownership. And you think there will be a lot of buyers for your house sale when you cannot include access the the land it stands on???

Sorry, but all that sounds like a terrible investment. I only buy janots I can sell later without third party's help. I call that owning. There would never be any problems at amphoe with census registration either.

13 minutes ago, khunPer said:

No, you are not sounding stupid at all; I believe we are many that had to get use to "Thai way of thinking", and asked "stupid questions" during the process...????

 

You can own house, but not the land under the house.

 

Old time wooden Thai houses were constructed, so the literally could be folded and moved, or easily dismantled and moved, when the house owner moved to another land. Now it probably make little more sense that you can own a house, without ownership to the land under the house.

 

Lots of land was, and still is, for disposal for use only, and is not owned by the users. Many village deeds – for example "sor bor gor" and like – if not most of Thai village deeds, are not real ownership, but land granted for farming and like, and its land that cannot be sold; however the right of use can be inherited within the family. You can read more about land title deeds here.

 

In more modern time we build houses of concrete, but in theory its still the same: you own the house – that's why you need to show various documentation for house-ownership, including preferably a superficies agreement – and when you move, you are allowed to dismantle the house, and bring it with you. I agree in, that might not be that easy with a concrete house, but a modern time house could for example also be made from a number of 40-feet containers, which easily can be moved to another location. Some lease agreements for an empty plot of land might even state, that you shall return an empty plot of land, when the lease terminates. Anyway, you are allowed to remove the building you own, if other terms had not been agreed with the land owner.

 

We had a foreigner that made a small water-park on the island where I live. It was well made, and became a very successful business. However, when he should renew his lease agreement, the land owner wanted to increase the rent to a higher level, than the business actually could pay. He banged the whole well maintained water-park down, either because he had to, or because he didn't want to leave the business for the land owner.

 

So yes, I own my house – as we foreigners can – but I don't own the land under it; however I have secured myself in other ways, just like others might have secured their house for lifetime with a usufruct.

????

So you mean you want to pay extra to remove your house after the temporary lease is over? Did you say that there is no janot issued on the land you have built your house on? So you are squatting on uncharted farmland?

Lifetime usufruct? Lifetime of what? There are only temporary leases. That's it.

If you are a legal house owner your name is in janot and you can also sell your house with the land. The legal owner can name person to enter to house book.

 

2 hours ago, RJRS1301 said:

I thought Airbnb was banned in Thailand??

It is not banned. To lease out under 30 days contract requires a hotel license though.

If you are the legal owner you can legally lease out by contract. Owner is thai or foreigner, it doesn't matter. If the usufruct allows it, same. Nationality doesn't matter.

Only the real owner of the house can put your name in the house book. His name is in the janot. Period. You do not own the house but lease it temporarily. Please do not use the term house owner erroneously. Someone might believe you and that would be false.

37 minutes ago, khunPer said:

As others have said, the Blue House Book follows the house, not the land owner.

 

I own a house, with a Blue House Book, and myself I have a Yellow House Book for foreigners. I'm the House Master, so only I can allow Thais to be obtained in "my" Blue House Book. Signing someone – a Thai – in means that they are now permanent residents in the house, until they are signed into another house book; when that might happen, you will be notified to meet at the tessa ban office to have the name marked "deleted". But as others have stated, your local tessa ban office might have slightly different rules from my local tessa ban office; its tessa ban issuing and updating house books.

 

Obtaining a Yellow House Book for foreigners seems to be very different from province-to-province. Some posters reports it as an easy procedure, whilst for others it seem to be more difficult. For me, it was almost same procedure as if I had applied for "permanent residency", apart from I did not have to pass a language test, and I did not need to sing the national hymn (the tessa ban officers shall be happy that I did not sing for them).

 

Ownership of a new-built house is a number of documents showing the name of the owner of the house:

• Superficies agreement from the land owner, or other documentation for permission to build a house on the land
• Architect drawings with name of the coming house owner (for example the foreigner, having a usufruct servitude)
• Building permission with the name of the house owner
• Contract with building constructor(s) showing the name of the house owner
• Any money transfers for construction, showing the name of the house owner, for example that money has been transferred from the house owners account; or a signed receipt for cash payment including both owner's name, and building contractor's name.
• Any further documentation related to the house that show the name of the house owner, for example receipts from buying building materials

There is, to my knowledge and all postings I have read, not a single document showing ownership of a new built house on rented land, or land to be used in accordance with a servitude. When changing ownership, a house, separated from land, can be registered at the land office.

 

Keep all documentation safe, they are your only proof of house ownership.

????

Thanks for the info and for clearing lots of things out. Could you please clarify one more point? How can you lawfully own a house that has no single contract to state the ownership? I assume you are meaning the use of usufruct for the land where the house lays.

You say you own a house. I think the law says you have build a house on someone's land and it's their house now. In case you have only leased the land for say 30 years, you should not be treated as the owner. If you cannot lease the land for FOREVER, how can you be the owner of something on someone else's land? How can you register a house at the land office?

I'm sorry if my question sounds stupid.

19 hours ago, kd2000 said:

Hi,

I have a life usufructuary contract on a plot of land. I built a house on it, received house number, address along with a blue book which is EMPTY (no resident). 

 

I want to sign a Thai person into the book. Do I need a permission of the land owner to do that?

 

I also would like to sign in my self as resident into the house book. Land office says I could only have a yellow book which is special for farangs but but prior to it blue one needs to have a Thai resident. What is the logic behind that? 

 

Any advice regarding this case would be appreciated.

 

Thanks!

I thought that over 30 year leases are not legal. Also I have no understanding how the usufructuary affects these circumstances. If you have managed to build a house on the land legally and it has been issued a housebook, and all you had was the usufructuary contract to do all this, it should be enough to add you as the "jaobaan" in the house book as well.

Obviously if your lease of land is not for FOREVER then the land owner needs to give his approval for all these changes.

There is no need for anyone to be in the bluebook, you can be jaobaan or puasai in the yellow book. It sounds to me that the land office thinks there must be a thai jaobaan and you can only be added as puasai/resident. It dosn't really matter what the land office thinks anyway cos they do not handle they house book issue. Your local amphoe office does all the changes to house books. And knows how to do it. The owner can name anyone jaobaan, then jaobaan can name as many puasai/ residents as he wishes.

House book name is only census registration of your permanent address. The usufruct contract is the lease/ownership document.

Two years ago I could ride my bike all over the military areas. The only one gated are where only thai IDs could drive through was at east end of dongtan beach and for just about 1 km stretch of road. Gate on the other side on road 3126. The restricted residental area is not even a beach. Nang ram Beach was about the nicest there. It has a small fee. Never paid to that rude guy selling tickets to Sai Kaeew beach so have not seen it.

Online transfer can be opened for foreigners with workpermits. Ask your branch.

I however have never worked in Thailand. I understand it should be still possible to send back some of the money I originally transferred in Thailand. With the foreign transfer certificate and sales contract of selling my condo I hope it will be possible. Can someone please confirm this?

The blind leading the blind in this thread.

I can’t see a lost passport being a big deal at all. Especially if you don’t need to travel that much. Just have the copies of the stamps. Get a police report of loss. Order a new passport. Go sort at immigration. We have to go there often anyway. NP


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3 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

8 hours ago, zhangxifu said:

Because it must be presented if asked for. Police, hotels, comes to mind.

Never. The police have always accepted a color copy of my passport. And a Thai drivers license works just as well. Never once had an issue. Every hotel has accepted a color copy. 

 

I would never travel with my original passport. Unless I was leaving the country. 

I only told you what is the law. If you don't like it do as you wish. The only country you don't need your passport at is the one that gave you a passport. In the rest you are a tourist.

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

That's my take on it. The system is supposedly set up so that 'they know where you are'. When I register online I have to enter my passport number and TM6 number. So it seems clear to me that if you register at your home address and then stay at a hotel that actually complies and registers you there, you are no longer registered at your home address. You would therefore have to register again when you go back home.  When I register there is no place to enter how long I'm staying or my next destination and I've seen the registration system for hotels - its identical (in fact I think its the same). There is also no requirement for hotels to de-register you - if the system works as I believe its designed to, it should track you until you leave - the departure card should check you out of the system.

 

As an aside, I wonder if the system is robust enough? If they continue with their stated intent of making hotels comply and register all non Thai guests there's going to be huge increase in traffic to the website.

 

I think the honest answer to the OP's original question is that at the moment some hotels might not insist on you having your passport - I know that up to now, I've used my driving licence on many occasions. But, if as the authorities say they are going to, the law is enforced, then yes, you will need your passport - and as I've said above, you will then need to re-register when you go home.

 

I wonder though, what the position would be if those with a Thai wife or girlfriend, let them do the checking in?  I've checked in to hotels several times with members of my UK family and the hotel has only ever required one of our passports (per room) at check in.

 

Its all bloody nonsense anyway, there's no way that any of this will make the Thai authorities aware of the whereabouts of someone who doesn't want them to know.

On TM30 online it is very clear. When you register to online reporting you either register as hotel or private residence. Not as both. There is check in date and check out date. When I check in myself at my residence I don't fill check out date. Hotels probably do fill check out dates as they are hotels. Nothing unclear, no confusion really possible between your residence and hotel.

21 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

30 minutes ago, Captain 776 said:

Yes.....u need passport.....OR....your Thai license.

I have lived here 14 yrs and if traveling domestically, All I need is my Thai license to fly or check in to hotel

 

Wrong... Your Thai License will not suffice for Immigration Purposes - there are plenty of hotels which strictly apply the Immigration regulations, these hotels will not allow you to check in without presenting your Passport. 

Also DL is not even an offical ID. It is not accepted at DLT for ID. It can be used at many places but is not an official ID.

2 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I would never carry my passport unless leaving the country, visiting immigration, or doing something with my bank. A color copy is best as they like to make a photocopy. It always satisfies them. And a thai drivers license should work too.

 

Why take the risk of carrying your original passport around?

Because it must be presented if asked for. Police, hotels, comes to mind.

24 minutes ago, Boon Mee said:

16 hours ago, thedemon said:

Personally I never carry my passport when travelling domestically in Thailand and have never had any issue with that. Since 2012 I have generally carried a pink ID card so used that. Prior to that I generally used any photo ID (licence, APEC card) for checking-in and boarding domestic flights. For hotels, their primary consideration is getting paid. Mostly I use a Thai credit card so they have some ID from that. Once in a while they ask for more (e.g. passport) but I never have it and have never been denied a room. 

Haven't needed to produce my passport for hotels in over 10 years now. Never travel with it 

The Pink Card and the Thai D/L is all that's needed. 

Wrong. The hotel must fill tm30. Also many are instructed to take copies of, even the stamps. They let you check in out of courtesy, but are braking the law doing so.

Well I don’t know if it makes a difference but I’m on a long stay extension not an SETV.  So I actually do have a permanent address registered in Thailand where I have been living for the past 5 years.  So I don’t think this effects me.  It’s alright I’m not concerned about it.  
 
I’m actually more concerned about whether or not Bangkok is going to be packed next week because of the new king ceremony.  Does anyone know if that’s going to be a big thing next week as well?  If so next week might not be the best time to plan a trip down there.  I’ve heard stories that there might be thousands of people in the streets watching the king travel the streets of Bangkok.  If so maybe I should plan it for the following week.  I don’t want to because I already have plans in Bangkok on the 8th.  But if roads are gonna be closed and stuff it’ll take forever to get around town.  Bangkok is already busy enough as it is.  Last time I was there I remember one night it took over an hour just to drive 2K that was slower traffic then I ever saw in Tokyo, Japan.  

It is so easy to travel in Thailand without the actual passport, so many do. Police can detain you though, untill the actual passport is presented. Many hotels need copies. Without a permanent residence status we are all just tourists. Please use your travel documents while travelling.

10 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

18 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Strange, did you ask them why?

Not accepting the yellow house book as proof of address is hard to believe.

Pattaya is often the same, I have always used yellow book (only a couple of weeks ago) but some report not being able to use. It may come down to English name on existing license and Thai name on ID.

Maybe they thought that yellow book must be used with pink ID only, passport number is different.
Also, the medical certificate could be the issue, if it wasn't issued with pink ID numbers wont match.

16 minutes ago, sandrabbit said:

In Rayong they don't accept the yellow book for driving licence renewal anymore, don't know about the pink ID card, so you have to go to immigration for the residence certificate and 500 baht for immediate issue or wait 1 week and it's free. 

Was the yellow book used with pink ID at Rayong DLT?

1 hour ago, Ratt Thai said:

17 hours ago, zhangxifu said:

A Thai would certainly be in trouble if the TB and ID address do not match. The ones I talked with today said that they would get complaint and possibly a fine from the ID issuer at Khet in Bangkok if they did't collect their new ID cards immediately registering to new TB in BKK. So far I have not been able to find anyone who did't get new ID immediately after house register move. So don't know what would happen in that case.

A Thai ID card is always in line with the housebook where the person is registered. Any change is always followed by a new issued ID card.
Only the original housemaster have the Tabien Baan, others have to carry a copy of the relevant page or have the original Housebook on hand if they need to.

 

Only the housemaster can ask to ad/remove any entry in the housebook at the relevant Amphur

I would expect the rules for the pink ID to be exactly same.

Your name is in chanot? You can show that at immigration doing the tm30. Better register online though. That way you won’t get fined 800 thb. Reporting by mail is also possible. 

BTW, isn’t it just for a years time you are allowed to be the land owner as a foreigner? Isn’t the purpose to give you a certain time to sell the land, to a Thai?

1 hour ago, sumrit said:

3 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Pink ID can't be used at DLT. They handed it back to me, saying "no use".

Yes, it can, I've done it twice, the second time just four months ago.

 

It's because you wanted to use it for your proof of address. 

Your ID card is what it says, proof of ID, and replaces your passport. You need to show your yellow tabien baan for proof of address in the same way that a Thai national needs to show both when renewing their driving licence.

A Thai would certainly be in trouble if the TB and ID address do not match. The ones I talked with today said that they would get complaint and possibly a fine from the ID issuer at Khet in Bangkok if they did't collect their new ID cards immediately registering to new TB in BKK. So far I have not been able to find anyone who did't get new ID immediately after house register move. So don't know what would happen in that case.

4 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

"The pink card is not ID anyway, it says on the back"

that's your opinion and interpretation.

It is completely false translation.
Front of the card it says this is alien ID card. Back of the card it says this is not a thai nationality ID card.

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

6 minutes ago, zhangxifu said:

In the bank they would.

 

Did I get this right? You just got a new DL at KK DLT with a yellow book that has BKK address?

Yes, my old YB has an invalid stamp on it.

I'm not sure why you brought that up? Did you go there with two yellow books? It sounds like DLT has now registered your address to BKK. But you live in KK. And your ID that no one want's to see is outdated. Hope it's not illegal.