TTom911

it will be a "battle of wills"... what they want and how they will proceed until ALL the way through is totally clear from their openly displayed conduct... they will come up with new stories and possibly pull new rabbits out of the hat on a daily basis, obstructing any "cooperation" where ever they can, no doubt in my mind...

it will all depend how determined the British delegation will be and how much support they have back home to be allowed, WITHIN the bounds of professional conduct of course, to "put up a fight"... there will be absolutely no meaningful addition to the Thai official statements without it ...

I don't envy the officers coming down here... wish them luck and hope they have the resolve, determination and support they will SURELY need...

Perhaps you mean well, but I believe you're fresh off the boat. The World and his wife already knows what happened and who are and aren't guilty

well, not just soooo fresh off the boat... just 8+ yrs, without asking I've seen more than I want... and "read a few things"....

The issue at hand now is not what "the world and his wife" knows... helping "the world and his wife" to get a second side to the story is almost "yesterday's job", that has been achieved, luckily... the question is what has to happen AFTER "the world and his wife" got to know and how to make sure they don't fall asleep...

If you are "not too fresh" here in TH and can come up with some productive suggestions, that would be of interest, I guess

Anybody know for sure why this case is getting so much attention? The fact that the PM Cameron requested personally makes me that the victim's family must be very connected politically. I have never seen a murder of a farang get this much focus. But it does sound like the court case is pretty set in stone and they don't even say if any new evidence can be brought to the court by these investigators... Also thinking that maybe these investigators are already here secretly, not yet revealing themselves to the authority.

Well connected, really. They are not. The UK are responding to an outcry from social media.

Correct. I absolutely hate facebook and the like, but this time it has been a plus.

As for boots on the ground already. Yes, I would not be surprised.

agreed... both... it (the latter) would brighten my day and put a smile on my face......

"Nevertheless, Pol.Lt. Prawut added that Thai police will conduct any additional investigations per request from the British officers to "clarify any issues they don't understand."

so if the uk police requests the dna from Nom Sod,RTP will provide it?

from the way the OP is worded that does not seem to be the case, it appears the UK can ask for the DNA to be retested but will play no role in the testing

If I was the legal council for the accused I would be asking for samples of the original DNA from the bodies so that I could carry out my own tests, the UK authorities should have carried out their own autopsies on the bodies once they were returned to the UK then all they would need are DNA samples from the accused, they could also exhume the body with the parents permission and retest

I've mentioned before but I read that there are in fact no places in Thailand that have internationally recognised credentials for doing DNA testing - is this correct?

There is no clear statement as to how and where the DNA tests were carried out - there was a statement from the police that the DNA found on the victim matched the accused

Further to this - the head of the department of forensics science in Bangkok made a statement questioning why they were not tasked on this high profile case from the start - in fact it seems they have never been involved which in itself is rather troubling - and they wonder why questions are being asked

and the reason this case is getting so much interest is the fact that who ever did this left behind irefutible DNA evidence that makes it very easy to prove without doubt who was involved and a rather vague statement by police that the DNA matched the suspects

The key here is that nobody believes the police that were involved for various reasons including the raft of miss information conflicting reports and other behind the scenes goings on like people being offered money to testify - the local head man and his brother and son involvement etc etc more holes than a pin cushion

There is just something not right going on here and most people with an ounce of grey matter know it

it will be hard to impossible for external investigators to produce new, even conclusive evidence (unless they are REALLY REALLY determined (and supported accordingly). That will be the big trouble, All sorts of official "reports" and "documents, will be put in front of them, all plastered with countless official stamps...

Having said the above, what I would be very certain though is, that the British police will not have much problems to find the countless flaws in the process and results...

Assuming the above would be the situation and there is not a "lucky break everyone is hoping for, then it really comes down to how much political/diplomatic will would be there to PRESS for more NEW investigation... That will/would be Phase 2 of the battle...

"They" of course very much count on that everyone will be tired, frustrated, "diplomatically tamed" and disappear...

Many "if's and when's"... This case can turn 180 degree on a daily basis for a while... VERY hard to predict the course and outcome...

Moreover, the Thai police are no longer involved in the investigation anymore because they have already finished the case file and sent it to the public prosecutor, Pol.Lt. Prawut said.

So the police consider this case closed?

There is "0" chance of additional suspects?

These two Burmese kids did the hole thing by themselves?

I would never consider bringing my family to that island, most likely there are still murderers/rapists on that island.

I will be going to every single travel website I can comment on and warn people of the danger they are in if they go to KT, as well as KP and Samui just for the fact they are in close proximity. I would encourage everybody to do the same.

As soon as you place anything detrimental on Trip adviser ...they remove them Defeats the object really.

Negligent behaviour on behalf of trip advisor. Will they be held accountable for the next death on the island then for failing to allow appropriate warnings. I will no longer be referring to trip advisor anymore.

1. there are never "enough" statements posted, are there...!?

2. someone shall count and document the new posts made and if/when removed (yes, fighting for justice is a bitter one, this tedious work is just one tiny example...)

3. the "metrics" gathered above can make interesting, yet to "some" rather unwelcome reading, once posted on sites where they can not so easily "cleanse the world of misdeeds..."

4. of course, that can/should be accompanied by "friendly" communication, giving them a chance to explain their position, because "intimidation" or "harassment" is NOT what is intended, but what might be intended is allowing justified public opinion to be heard...

It's just one of many such things which needs to be in the arsenal to be and stay being heard...

yes, it's tedious, laborious, never sure of the outcome/effect, we could all live without, but...

"Nevertheless, Pol.Lt. Prawut added that Thai police will conduct any additional investigations per request from the British officers to "clarify any issues they don't understand."

so if the uk police requests the dna from Nom Sod,RTP will provide it?

from the way the OP is worded that does not seem to be the case, it appears the UK can ask for the DNA to be retested but will play no role in the testing

If I was the legal council for the accused I would be asking for samples of the original DNA from the bodies so that I could carry out my own tests, the UK authorities should have carried out their own autopsies on the bodies once they were returned to the UK then all they would need are DNA samples from the accused, they could also exhume the body with the parents permission and retest

If the officers coming down here are not STRONGLY supported politically/diplomatically (however quite it may be in terms of public statements) they will go nowhere. The amount of such political/diplomatic pressure will have a HUGE influence on the possible outcome. But that for sure the British government knows full well, let's just hope the have their battle plan drawn up...

JTJ

Now if we accept what you say ( on hundreds of posts ) then the clear conclusion is as follows ;

The case is cut and dried.

The RTP have done a sound and professional job without fear or favour.

All the culprits have been identified and justice will be served.

The British Police will be observing only and will confirm all is well.

The negative media and online reports are purely the work of conspiracy nutters and bitter twisted individuals who hate Thailand and all its citizens.

There will be no negative consequencies whatsoever in regard to tourism or the reputation of Thailand or its present rulers.

So we have established these facts , are entirely satisfied that the whole affair is a storm in a tea cup that will blow away by next Tuesday around lunchtime.

So given all this one thing strikes me as odd , why do you keep banging on about it , why not just sit back and revel in the knowledge that you are right and the loonies are wrong . I read something once by some bloke who wrote that a lady 'Doth Protest too much ' , for some reason that pops into my head every time you post.

tooooo much for him to take in.....

This forth and back between "we agreed / we did not and will never agree" to get the UK police involved will continue for a while I suspect...

But this language expresses at least quiet clearly what the UK's official diplomatic expectation is which they will demand to be met - in which ever way - and if the Thai's would have indeed twist/misrepresent what was expressed to them, and supposedly agreed, in Italy, it only would add to the official UK suspicion (let alone our "bickering") and will only make them become more expressive... Latest since Milly Dowler also politicians understand that it it politically not a good idea to ignore victims of heinous crimes and organised betrayal:

--

Thai version, seeming to imply that we are just a little slow in grasping the perfection and precision of the RTP (excuse my sarcasm ... :

"They simply needed more time to understand it all because we managed to arrest suspects swiftly, even though it seemed impossible at the beginning," he (Thai PM) was reported to have said."

--

UK version, seems nothing but fair, no!?:

"But diplomatic sources said he accepted the sending of a delegation of British police when pressed on the issue by Mr Cameron at the Asia Europe Meeting in Italy."

"Obviously it is for the Thai authorities to lead and carry out that judicial process," a diplomatic source said. "But it is important that it is fair and transparent and that both of the families can be reassured that it is the murderers that have been brought to justice. There are two areas we are particularly concerned about. One is the verification of the DNA samples of the suspects, making sure there is further independent verification."And the second is the investigation into allegations of mistreatment of the suspects."

"What the (British) PM secured was agreement from the Thai PM that we can send some British police investigators to Kho Tao to work with the Royal Thai Police on this."

--

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/british-police-flying-to-thailand-for-double-murder-investigation-of-beach-tourists-30673786.html

Cameron could save the British taxpayer a lot of money if he gets rid of the staff in his press office as they are not needed, he's got the Thai PM to speak for him.

This arrogance and breach of diplomatic protocol really needs to be shot down. I know Thais don't care what foreigners think about them and adverse comments would not be published here but there's always more than one way.

The Thai government needs to be called on their unauthorised comments in no uncertain manner and, for example, a travel advisory which goes beyond the usual notice of martial law etc but actually warns travellers their diplomatic representatives may not be able to help them because of restrictions and so on from the ' host ' government.

This would be passed on to the EU and picked up by other countries who may just follow suit. Nothing will scare LoS more than the loss of tourist revenue.

I think it is all a ploy to win over the Thai people. My wife says the whole world loves the general. I told her that it is not true and she is sucking up the propaganda. He is treating the Thai's like mushrooms.

That is not what my wife says. She don't like him, and neither do a lot of Thais i know.

it more and more goes along the usual colour lines: brown/yellow - red

OK, let's put an end to this craziness.

I have worked in security-related fields in Europe, including working alongside police forces. Never ever have I heard of police officers working undercover on foreign soil.

Western police forces are notoriously understaffed, and they have enough on their plates working on cases that actually took place in their own damn country. Not to mention the fact that, even if they did work undercover on a case that involved their own nationals abroad, they wouldn't be allowed to use whatever information they collected since it would have been gathered illegally. And to put the cherry on top, if police officers were found to be working undercover in a foreign country without the express permission of that country's government, they could be jailed.

In the present case, the only force that could be working undercover is MI6. Intelligence agencies typically provide their agents abroad with a diplomatic cover, which gives them immunity from prosecution. BUT MI6 would only take on a case where Britain's interests are in jeopardy. I doubt a mishandled murder investigation, no matter how tragic the case is, would warrant an undercover action. MI6 has definitely bigger fish to fry than this.

unfortunately SO true !

It seems that the truth is out. A farang friend just called to tell me that his Thai wife translated an article from the Thai press for him saying that a police informant on the island finally cracked and told the whole story. It wasn't the Burmese guys who did it after all. Apparently, it was just who most of us suspected all along, together with a group of friends. If this does prove to be true, then I will have a lot more to say about this turn of events. Meanwhile, perhaps Thai Visa can use its resources to verify this? I was out when my friend called me and frankly, I was expecting it to be reported on Thai Visa by the time I got home a few minutes ago.

Please don't say this a troll? How much do you trust your friend? Sorry to ask, but I'm sure a few of us would like to know.

I completely trust my friend, whom I've known for over a dozen years. I don't think he would have called me with a made-up story. We have been following this case together, which is why he called me. His wife seemed to be translating the article for him line by line as he was telling it to me on the phone.

However, I am requesting that Thai Visa - or now, any member of Thai Visa who can read Thai, to please try to verify this. He mentioned the name of the newspaper but it was not one that I had heard of before. But once it is in one Thai paper, I suppose it should just be a matter of time before it is in more of them - and then eventually the English language papers.

1. what paper !?

2. please scan it or 'iPhone"/photograph and post it here ASAP , it's "fair use" and EAGERLY anticipated !!!!!!!

I'm sorry if this comes across in anyway insensitive, but I cannot understand how the police force of a foreign country can be involved in ANY way in an investigation in Thailand. This is not a third world country. If this horrible event had happened in say AU, I cannot imagine the Australian govt saying to UK government "your welcome to give us a hand...."

They will be here as observers, more or less. It's not unheard of, other countries have done the same to appease strained diplomatic relations

have your "diplomatic, good guy" AND send your objective, skilled and determined "bull dog", both working together in harmony... and we might get to the truth WITH diplomatic rules obeyed...

This must mean that the PM believes that the Burmese guys are guilty and they the Thai police have done a competent investigation otherwise there is no way he could he silly enough to let the UK come and do their own investigation, unless he thinks the UK are too stupid to find out the truth or that the case has been so corrupted that the UK cannot get to the truth i.e. If the original DNA from the victims has been replaced

what they will sure find (just assuming it happened) are the plenty of ways evidence has been tempered with...

It's like accounting fraud in a large organisation... it is impossible to do that without leaving tons of traces... the only "line of defence" is trying to prevent people to start digging... once experienced and determined people start digging the house of cards inevitably comes down, 100%, no chance... so, tempering will be easily detected if it happened, and that in itself could be HUGELY damaging for Thailand, again, if it happened....

IF however the FULL TRUTH can be found out after the tempering, well, that I agree, is unfortunately not quite so certain... But let's not rule that out quite yet !

This must mean that the PM believes that the Burmese guys are guilty and they the Thai police have done a competent investigation otherwise there is no way he could he silly enough to let the UK come and do their own investigation, unless he thinks the UK are too stupid to find out the truth or that the case has been so corrupted that the UK cannot get to the truth i.e. If the original DNA from the victims has been replaced

This must mean ...

Nope

May be the PM now understands that he (and Thailand) has no future when he continues to back the Thai police

its NOT going to be pretty......

I wonder if the UK police can claim nomsot´s fathers million Baht reward for proving he did it?

VERY GOOD COMMENT, I like that

P.S.: but "the others" must pay pack the 10 Million Baht they (speculatively) got for ............ yes !?

The British police need to be vey careful.....remember what happened to the Saudi Diplomats the Saudi government sent to Thailand to investigate the diamond theft and cover up. They were murdered all 4 of them plus a Thai family.....a Thai police man was convicted of the murder of the family. STILL no convictions of anyone who murdered the Saudi diplomats......the Saudi government say it was the Thai police .

GOOGLE......'the saudi blue diamond and thai police'.

not enough blogging and social networking in that case then... even though it not a cure for all things, it can even be a curse, but without the internet community we will NEVER learn A LOT of things... it's often the only way to fight being made "shut up"... and it CAN be hugely powerful...

Even though this is a good sign, showing that people and social media can make a difference, reading between the lines tells me they only want to check the DNA match and do a flimsy check on mistreatment. Firslty, 5 weeks or so should have been enough time to mess about with the samples and swap them to get a match; secondly, the rape could have happened post mortem what means the killer and the rapists are two pair of shoes. The article does not mention the shallow stab wounds on David's body, Sean with the bloody guitar and similar stab wounds is not mentioned, the fat bloke with the shark tooth ring is not mentioned, etc... I fear the case will continue to go south, because the questions that should have ben asked were not mentioned by the "diplomatic source" whoever that is...

Why would the Cops tell the media each and every minute details of what they are going to do?

In their twisted way they DO report to the media on a regular basis... they clearly tell in almost every public statement how they are messing around... it's just a little "unconventional communications"...

Very good! This is not a loss of face, but a gain I respect. Thailand is finally acting smart. The Thai police can even learn something. British investigators are some of the best in the world and most police forces around the world can learn from them. Thailand needs more skill and technology transfer in most areas, and should never say no to the opportunity. S-Korea and Japan built their early success on learning from the United States. Now look where they are.

I can't believe this naivety...

Pretty big deal in the scheme of things and doubtless some face lost, especially for the weak UK 'ambassador' to Thailand with his praise for the police's handling of the investigation. They'll get the runaround, no doubt, and it'll be like working with tetchy teenagers, but if the Thais do sandbag this (foregone conclusion) they could be looking at some interesting travel advisories.

You haven't been following closely enough, Kents positive remarks were fabricated by Thai officials

... and that stupid fabrication was probably the best that could have happened... how better prove to the Brits first hand how messed up they are, than publicly twist their words... the UK will NOT have been amused by that, for sure.....

BBC UK section

British tourist murders: Petition calls for independent investigation

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29655934

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11171148/British-police-to-fly-to-Thailand-to-probe-brutal-murder-of-two-young-tourists.html

In the Telegraph article, it says this: "They could travel to the country within weeks."

How many weeks? When is the trial set for? Perhaps they are going to get here after it is all over. Too little too late comes to mind, but better than nothing.

even though such an exercise will of course need proper preparation (time) on behalf of the british police, I still hope they will send at least one senior "watch dog" immediate, and if just to make the point VERY clear for everyone to SEE, that the time of messing is over...

even the most stupidest big shots in Thailand will now get a little lesson and see that if you need tourists to feed your people, then, in the days of the internet, the rules changed big times and old daddy's habit of just shouting "shut up and do as I say" ARE OVER...