TTom911

Then why are all my favorite hotels charging higher advertised rates this year than the same months last year?

because that's what Thai regard as "smart business": "I loose income (because of bad service or other adversities), therefore I must try to squeeze out more from less customers by increasing the price". TOTALLY normal, no...!?

"If you look at developed countries, people do not accept bribes or commit corruption because they uphold and value personal integrity.

actually, they do accept bribes. Look at Virginia in the US.

But they do not often get away with it because there are stricter laws combined with transparency, enforcement, and a free, professional, active press.

Exactly! Our "western" society is by no means inhabited by angels, far far from it, but the changes that crooks, independent of their status, are brought to justice and face the music at some stage is still a million times higher than here (even though also in our home countries too many are also still getting away with it)... but realistically that's probably as much as you can ask from a democracy...

"Thainess" is somehow entwined with the phrase "mai pen rai", which I loosely interpret as "it doesn't matter".

When a person makes a mistake or commits a sin, a Thai friend or acquaintance will say "mai pen rai" to help

the offender save face. Saving "face" makes one unaccountable, and no Thai wants to be accountable, so they

all enable each other to avoid blame. Much the same is the excuse, "kikiad", translated as "lazy" in English. In

Thailand saying one is "kikiad" is often considered a very acceptable reason for shirking one's duty. One can

save "face" blamelessly by admittingto being "kikiad". As most English speakers know,, the concept of

laziness has little in common with integrity. Another word for lazy, "slothful", is very derogatory, and one

would not easily admit to being so. Maybe this is why so many Thais, especially in government, seem to

exhibit laziness on a daily basis: it just doesn't matter; no "face" is lost by doing so.

Perhaps, in the West in recent decades we have developed our own version of saving "face". As long

as one has high "self esteem", no matter one's faults or failures, things are great. No one should be failed

in school because it might hurt their feelings and damage their psyche. Come to think of it, no one in

Thailand is allowed to fail in scool either. Political correctness all around the world, it seems. Probably

originated in Asia as "saving face" and morphed into "polotical correctness" in recent years.

This Asian "saving face" thing may have some historical and cultural roots and meaning, nowadays its all too often nothing but an overused, cheap attempt to put a glossy term on avoiding responsibility. The biggest loss of face lies in the act itself and the best way to save face is to show remorse and/or make good and not to cowardly hide behind some facade of tradition

The reality is, it is too much to ask that politicians show integrity. At the national level, they just do not have it in them. And that is not exclusive to Thailand. Worldwide, nearly all national politicians are super corrupt, devoid of ethics and morality, and cannot be expected to put the public good ahead of their own self interests. Politics these days attracts a quality level of people, that is very low. I believe there are some exceptions, but not many.

However, the same cannot be said of the public. We all have a responsibility to treat our fellow world citizens, friends, family, and countrymen with a degree of respect, integrity, and fairness. That is part and parcel of what it means to be a decent person in this world. Whatever can be taught to instill this in people, is a good thing. Where do you start? Not sure. It sort of has to come from the parents. Many are just not prepared to bring children into this world, and they do it anyway. And the kids are left without a moral or ethical education. People do not just learn this stuff on their own, unless they are very self aware, and very conscious. So, good parenting is a good place to start. But, not all parents are even aware of what righteous morality is. Attempting to eradicate most corruption is a good place to start. But, not jawboning about corruption. Doing something about it. Massive fines, long prison sentences, and figuring out a way to get convictions. The judiciary is another good place to start. How can you impose punishment when the judiciary is as compromised as it is here in the LOS? How many straight prosecutors and judges do they have here? And then lastly we have the educational system. Where does one even begin to reform a system as broken as this one is? Not sure. But, a complete reform of the judiciary, the police, and the educational system is necessary to move Thailand into this century. That is if it is serious about becoming a respected member of the world community. I know this is alot to ask. But, the reality is, that it has to be done sooner or later. Why not sooner?

totally agree... reality is that the vast majority does not want to go to the dentist... they have plenty of excuses to wait until they can't chew any more... that's why people get bad teeth and some societies have blood on the streets one day... or, as experience tells, people hardly ever learn from history... they need to experience the pain before they make a change (until the pain has gone and they can go back to their old habits, of course)...

About 2 years ago the Bangkok Post ran a poll asking Thais if corruption was acceptable (or something to that ilk). 70% of respondents (and there were several thousand) came back and said that they believed corruption was acceptable, as long as they as individuals received a benefit from it. That response shocked me. Was this just the Thai Y- generation speaking ? How the hell can you beat an ingrained psych like that ? In the West we are taught from an early age that corruption stands alongside of criminality. Do the Thais understand this ? Being a long time observer, I still just don't know.

I recall reading that myself and I thought the main benefit Thais gained from corruption was the ability to buy their way out of trouble. Be it a traffic ticket or murder.

Absolutely no surprise to me at all... You see on a daily basis how it works here and how people tick... Thai's do NOT want to change. Corruption, on which ever small or large scale, is ingrained in their "normal way of life". Making a "career" in Thailand means usually not wasting time on useless "education and hard work", it means "getting more and paying less"... The only change most Thai are eagerly looking for is to climb up the food chain and pocket the big bucks themselves... that's regarded as "being a clever business person"... Why learn and innovate? "useless", "tiring", "alien", "farang"....

Don't disregard it as Thai bashing... it's proven constantly, day-by-day... those polls cited above are just a shocking statistical reflection of exactly that.

The outcome of the Koh Tao case WILL show us (again)... Thailand has a chance to prove it's changing, I seriously doubt they will take that chance, we see all the hallmarks of the continuation of their standard practices already...

We all would love to be proven wrong, no!? Then show it, Thailand, SHOW IT, if you can... !!

"If you look at developed countries, people do not accept bribes or commit corruption because they uphold and value personal integrity. That hasn't been the case in our country, and it's something we should try to foster in our society."

Every Thai policeman and Government official should read the above line 10 times per day. Than maybe after a couple of years the country can move up to be a Developing country, now it's going backward, its not even developing.

It does feel like it is going backwards. Would not doubt it at all if social forums get blocked with the conscience they have tried to provide the police and government. This story says it all in the opening line "Instilling moral values could be the key to solving national woes, says likely NRC chief Thienchai" and they could make a first step by looking at the actual suspects in the Koh Tao hoe killings. If they don't get that investigation back on the right track, integrity has no hope in Thailand and it will continue its slide toward a bush league state, fueled by cronyism and corruption.

TOTALLY TRUE. The outcome of that f... up case will tell a lot about Thailand .... I would praise the day for being proven wrong in my skepticism, I'D LOVE TO BE PROVEN WRONG ...

reading that a man who expresses such views in writing is" ... a newly appointed member of the National Reform Council and a leading candidate to become the NRC's president ..." makes me feel a little better this morning... Let's see what happens in the afternoon...

"Methinks it might be best to start with the monks setting an example and preaching the value of self integrity. Maybe if the people believed that merit purchases do not negate wrongdoing things might change."

I guess that might actually be a good thing, even if just being one of the many different approaches needed, but some might even listen to that...

and don,t forget an honest and convincing way to teach children at schools... and then, one day, even big old "I know everything better" daddy might start listening

MAYBE....

Thai Government invite UK Government/police to confirm the evidence. Job done. The PM can do this

international face sorted

International concerns sorted

International recognition sorted

RTP reputation sorted

Public concerns sorted

Tourism concerns sorted...

Justice for the victims families sorted

So the reason for not doing so is ?

so you figured already that an "independent review" would conclude that all is nicely in order and sorted so that everybody (you forgot the victims...) would be "happy"...??!

an independent review is exactly that: INDEPENDENT, and not a administrative act of rubber stamping and declaring things "sorted" as you do.

And unfortunately, people with your frame of mind, expecting a rubber stamp, would provide the material to be reviewed...

So, and now you want to convince the world that THAT material would be in any way trustworthy?

OMG, your post is SO telling of your twisted sense of "justice"...

^^TTom911, if they don't that just makes it worse.

Don't want to make the RTP look stupid. Just want a safe conviction.

Understand?

yes, sure understand But still, they will not give it to you (99.99% sure), or, if they give it (0.01% chance), then you can be certain we know already what that result will be..., coz they will have made damn sure that the result will suit their case... Enough said, I guess...

Sorry Tom, I think we understand each other.

I also like to "dream" sometimes, I just know that such "dreams" don't come true when dealing with certain people/institutions... harsh reality

^^TTom911, if they don't that just makes it worse.

Don't want to make the RTP look stupid. Just want a safe conviction.

Understand?

yes, sure understand But still, they will not give it to you (99.99% sure), or, if they give it (0.01% chance), then you can be certain we know already what that result will be..., coz they will have made damn sure that the result will suit their case... Enough said, I guess...

It seems to me that a DNA match does not prove that they killed the victims. It may prove at best that they had sex with them/her. It does not even prove rape and it certainly doesn't prove killing them.

As every criminal lawyer knows, confessions are no evidence, especially not in a case like this.

Agreed.

DNA proves presence. Confessions alone mean nothing. CCTV alone means nothing. Etc

Together it will likely see the 2 Burmese men convicted.

It is a foregone conclusion. Whether they are guilty or innocent, the judge will uphold the prosecutors 'evidence'. Welcome to Thailand.

Dont be too sure of that, Thailand is going through a huge social awakening, as are those who visit LOS.

The last few years the mask Thailand wears has all but fallen off, political corruption,airport highjacks, coups, Navy human trafficking, commercial slavery, human rights abuses, ongoing terrorism, police corruption and mafia connected to all.

This case involving nationals of other countries cannot be just treated like an internal Thai on Thai inconsequential case. even though they might try I think the pressure will just grow. The pressure as well as domestic is also international and that community have standards.Thailand has of late been under the spotlight for ignoring International standards on many things. it cant keep on ignoring them without consequence forever.

What cannot go on forever simply dosnt, the question is when that change will come. Even Thailands corrupt system cannot buck change forever and when it comes theres likely to be a catalyst that tips it. There usually is.

This case is doing serious damage to the image of the country Internationally both in the tourist industry and security and police force that it relies on, depending on the case progressing the justice and legal system might too get blasted. That wont help at all.

The PM taking the stance he has to defend the farce also means politically his image is being further damaged along with the claim of reducing corruption and reforming the police.. If he were serious he would have jumped all over the RTP on this already and used it as an excuse/ example and cleaned house, by not doing so it has confirmed most International suspicions that its just another coup with the usual goals.

This isnt going to help the return to happiness campaign at all.

maybe he's just too busy with TV appearances (... yawnnnnnnnn...) to be able to pay attention to those minor details...

Get the independent (UK) DNA testing done and we're there, either way.

Until then there is no chance of a safe conviction in the eyes of the well . . . most people.

"... and we are there..." ??? Yeah yeah, and you still believe you would get any materials which would not have been massively tempered with - out of pure unprofessionalism or intentionally ?

They are not really clever, but they are sure clever enough to NOT hand you over the materials expected for a proper, independent investigation which could come to any conclusive results...

Dreamer...

https://www.facebook.com/justiceforHannahandDavid

Please like ans share..

Possible to get a few more responses to this??? Where are all the poster's who so much disagree with the "official accounts"??? Show your hands, PLEASE !

No his Alibi isn't money. Nor has it been refuted.

how much u wonna be paid to change ur mind... 20... I wouldn't give u more for that nonsense... sorry for the language... but comes from the heart...

Time will reveal all, truth and justice will prevail and there's nothing this ragtag and bobtail outfit can do to stop it.

I assume you are taking about the amateur detectives online.

No -- maybe the online forensic psychiatrists.

What about the armchair quarterback RTP apologist crowd, who overlook decades of corruption (Thailand is ranked 102/177 in global corruption rankings) and police incompetence.

BEST POST EVER !!!

Time will reveal all, truth and justice will prevail and there's nothing this ragtag and bobtail outfit can do to stop it.

sleep sound... nice dreams...

They forgot to mention that there is at least one highly suspect individual who refuses to give a DNA sample (for what reason other than being guilty?) and whom the Thai police continues to overlook

Not knowing Thai law I am at a loss to understand why the RTP have not compelled the "...highly suspect individual..." to give a DNA sample. One would think that he has no choice in the matter.

Everything becomes VERY easy to understand if one just realises that the entire process is NOT about finding the culprit... Once this is understood, then "evidence", "due process", 'professionalism", "transparency" is nothing but a hinderance one can so easily do without.... "Photoshop" is the name of the game....

P.S.: for those who dont know "Photoshop" - it's a sophisticated paint/graphics computer program with which you can manipulate graphics or "paint" anything from scratch at hearts content... look's like "the real thing" if you are a RTP PRO..."AMAZING"...

Most of us have known for a long while that we are second when it comes to justice in Thailand, but for some reason this case really hits it home to me. Considering how high profile this case is, to me it sends a message of open season on westerners. Relatively speaking.

I remember in the early days of me living in Thailand my wife's uncle saying I am protected more than Thai's because of the backlash it would create. Doesn't seem that way anymore......

Shame really because I like Thailand.

Quite right.....These types of cases where the international governments and media turn things upside down for the RTP and judiciary .....doesn't do the expats cause any good at all for those of us living here.

It's foreign interference...and nobody here likes that!

It's up to the Thai to reform themselves and their country - and I can't see at all that they want it (letting alone having a plan how to actually do it). Koh Tao will not change anything, UNLESS the tourists walk away in drones... Only MONEY TALKS... Conscience...? "What are you talking about...?"

There is still at least one murderous psychopath out there, laughing at the fact the he has so fat gotten away with it.

it's not ONE psychopath, it's an entire clique who goes to ANY length for whatever they fancy... a lone psychopath is a cuddly pet compared to what's really happening...

"at least"

sorry, I missed that...