steveromagnino

regarding political systems, I strongly believe in the free market mechanism with light handed regulation to protect environment, the poor and preserve culture.

The usual complaint of the free market is that it squanders resources and causes poverty... well part of it is that without regulation there is an incentive for short term gain and this is why protection of the environment among other things is needed. Carbon tax while beauracratic and annoying is an example of that. The causes poverty particularly in the 3rd world bit...well that is partly because there isn't really a free market, lots of trade barriers up making sure the 1st world countriese can protect themselves for the competitive industries where 3rd world could be dominant (e.g. France agriculture) and also becase some of the 3rd world dictators have made some terrible deals for their countries to get money for themselves.

A few cases like Nauru where NZ, Australia and Britain completely screwed them over, but that isn't really anything to do with a free market.

If someone wants to pay me 1,000,000,000 baht to be their cleaner why should anyone else stop them? Of course that isn't going to happen because despite my superior ironing skills, there are millions of people who can be maids. However, there aren't many people who can be a CEO.

That said, there are plenty of IMHO well overpaid expats here who are here mostly because the parent company wants a 'company man from their country' overseeing things.... a few I've met are at a loss as to what to do with their time; cannot speak the language, don't know what is going on, and all they do is present and escort their bosses around occasionally.... nice work if you can get it. But if a company wants to waste their money on a jobsworth; well that is up to the them and their shareholders.

Go the free market. Deregulate with clear market mechanisms. Bring back Buck.

I know a few.... in most cases (as with almost all my Thai friends) the dowry was paid; a fairly large one in most cases (BKK living, foreign education, high paying jobs, good families) but then given straight back to the couple for their first house.

Can only think of one case where the daughter (actually full Thai) the family hated the groom and made him pay a multimillion baht sin sot then didn't return it simply to try to discourage the marriage...didn't work though; so they might have given it back to the daughter by now....

So much the same; would be different if raised overseas as so many overseas raised look krueng aren't really 'Thai' in their outlook and probably would end up following customs of that country.

Hello,

Buddah Day on Deceber 5th, im told everything closes, i mean everything bars,girls,shops etc is this true and whats the chances of getting a drink in the hotel im staying in or will i hav to stock up the fridge.

Also is there anything at all i can do to avoid boredom on that day, i will be in bangkok

Cheers

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I think you mean the King's Birthday celebrations.

I also think you should consider going home, to avoid boredom here.

well while it cannot be easy for some foreigners to live on that sort of money who might have problems eating street food, catching buses etc, I think for a local who can get around, 32k is not so bad to live on. Certainly not a massive amount, but if not owning a fancy car or house, then enough to have a nice time on. Probably no lavish overseas trips, but enough to eat out all the time and so on.

Most of Bangkok earn somewhere around this amount and get by ok.

Even my old maid used to only earn 12,000b a month, and she managed to send her daughter overseas to study and owned a quite nice house somewhere in Thonburi; certainly possible but involves not too much drinking and even less womanising

Womanising, not being able to ride the local transport systems and being unable to eat local food are the problems hitting most expats in the wallet IMHO.

Regarding hotels, never understood why but so many of the management are Swiss?!! What is up with dat?

after a while, you can sing to your wife....

lerk laew dtor gun

and then also sing...

lerk laew ka... noo lerk gup kao laew ka..... :-)

and then your best man can sing....

ork huk mah ruk gup pom

to your wife....

Actually, better to tell her this is what you are going to do if she is mean/kee ngud ngid or anything; she should enjoy it. Don't actually do it.

Can you tell me a bit more about your experience at AUA, how many hours did you put in there, what levels did you study at?

I'm studying there now, have put in about 50 hours in the past 2.5 weeks. Not enough yet to make a judgement. I'm in level 3/4 as I've studied quite a lot over the past 2 years. In fact, I really should be in the higher level 5-10 class but I'm an incredibly slow learner..........actually, no. I'm slower than that. A couple of the guys in the class that have been there for 600 hours or so say it really does work so I'm going to persevere. I really have a hard time concentrating during the lessons, when you can't understand it's just so easy to drift off. I'd love to get your comments on your time at AUA. Thanks..........

I'm perhaps a little different, as while I am 1/2 Thai I never spoke Thai really at all until I moved back to Thailand. As in I could ask where the bathroom was, order pad thai and thank someone...about that level. My mother never spoke it as she is actually Chinese, and prefered to speak a small amount of CHinese (which i also cannot speak). I am also terrible at languages; of considerable surprise to my family as I was quite good at music which supposedly would help - didn't.

I do have family here though, so within about the first 6 months I had ok Thai, and learned reading and writing. I was here I think another year, then went to AUA at the request of the company I was working for, where speaking Thai clearly was a requirement (long story). They put me straight in the 5-10 class, so I didn't really ever lean much vocab; after being here a year I already had most of that bit down ok. never really didn't know what was going on.

So a little different to you. Probably did 200 hours in the 5-10 class so far; still have about 100 I haven't used yet should go back. but scared I will not have time

I'd say that with going 20 hours a week, you should be seeing some significant improvement.... you do need to keep concentrated though. If you are looking out the window and such...well that doesn't help. I also used to take notes in Thai; that helped so on the BTS home I would review my notes, and that helped. I also usde to find some teachers to be more interesting than others. The general stuff was a bit too much like talking to my family, so I enjoyed the cooking and ghosts and stuff like that.

Peter Hom was my favourite guy..very funny and always could keep my attention.

It is all relative. While Thai people often have no desire to learn supposedly, I'd say a lot of foreigners could learn the quality of patience. The classes in AUA are a good time to practise patience; it takes time to learn a language. You can speed it up with more study, but it is pretty hard IMHO to 'turbo' learn 30 hours of lessons in an hour without concentration, there isn't a magic pill or anything.

Stick at it; you can PM me if you want more info.

Unlike the others, I think you write a lot, but have not backed up your comments with enough evidence to convince a reader like myself. You raise some very interesting points though, some I agree with and some not.

>>You can see it in the eyes – the guile. Westerners are guileless. We are unarmed.

With respect - rubbish; plenty of westerners with plenty of guile - look at most immigrants - as cunning as your would find. Please outline which countries you are basing your ascertion on. And don't include NZ or Aussie in that list. Plenty of slick willies in those countries. Good on them - nothing wrong with guile. Another word = negotiation skills.

>>No one smiles at panhandlers,

Please outline which country you live in that welcomes panhandlers with open arms and love.

>>There is no interest in education.

Commonplace to spend significant money sending kids to get educations overseas. Massive push for english. Quality of local education, another issue, children's interest in their education at that level another issue perhaps.

>>There are few gardens or parks or beautiful buildings

True. But harder to introduce parks in a country with high population densities and without the incomes to support them. Only Bangkok arguably suffers from a significant lack of parks.

>> The arts are barely alive in Asia, unless you count copying. No live band writes their own material, painters copy from photographs, and there is nearly no literature produced.

I disagree. Here you are saying throughout Asia. In commercial applications, Thais are well renowned for creativity in advertising, graphic design, clothing design. problem is that in some commercial applications creativity is not enough (and in fashion, Thai designers have too much creativity, and not enough business sense). LIve bands creating their own material....hm.... a ton here - Bakery and the whole indy scene; Futon; Loso; Ford, Saxman, the look tueng scene to name a few. Plenty of young painters here; just need to go to Studio 55 or similar to see them. Certainly a massive amount of creative talent coming out of Vietnam and CHina at the moment. Literature definitely a bit sad. Movie scene adn TV - Oxide Pang; Note Udom and others doing innovative things.

Would argue that groups like the Siam Society and the universities however have failed to take the arts to the masses. Like occurs in most parts of the world incidentally. Definitely less than in developed countries. But that is symptomatic of development; it frees up time for the nicer things in life.

>>Philosophy is not here. Never discussed here. The good, the true, and the beautiful, have no widespread following. There are no recognizable morals of truth and justice – lawers and police openly frame foreigners and the disadvantaged, as if it was obviously proper.

Rodney King, Aborigines in Australia... the world aint fair.

>>>The cultures of Thailand and the Philippines amount to the importation of currently fashionable cell phones. Guile, with nothing underneath the guile – means without an ends. As rich as possible.

Guile for the purpose of getting rich. What is that...nothing? That's the purpose of the guile! And if you think that is all there is to Thai culture...well you've missed a lot. Cannot deny materialism. It is a problem getting bigger.

>>Expats who live here eventually refuse to do any business with Asians. People who date here either give up any of their own values as irrelevant, thus denying the possibility of a shared consensual reality with Asians, or don’t expect much in the way of shared values. Unless the woman is foreign educated or otherwise worldly beyond her culture, she will be myopic beyond all credulity, her only interests relating to boy hunting or family. Her mental skills, developed for those reasons, or not at all. Nothing outside of that exists.

This is ridiculous. Expats who end up doing business with non_Asians usually end up doing so because it is easier (they didn't learn the language) or they don't know enough to negotiate successfully. (You are either a good negotiator, or you are at the mercy of one). Solution? Learn how to get by here, and the real money is in doing business with the locals. Can only think of a few people that get rich here doing business...but not with Asians. Also FYI the whole world is not white; plenty of Asian expats in both countries you name.

Your comments about women suggest you haven't met very many. And the ones you have are certainly far from representative of all the women out there.

>>Status more important than the friendships it could open the door to.

Fair comment. Totally agree. But the status also opens doors that friendship does not. Works both ways. And besides which, I have friends that would fight for me here. in every place I've lived. Hard to find good friends, but they are there.

>>There is no peace here – the business oriented eyes never shine back, wide and interested and naked and wild and present and without agenda.

I'd be surprised to see westerners like Larry Ellison and Gates just say, ok, now I'm wide and interested and naked and wild and present without an agenda so my business empire can get royally shafted by my competitors - 'I guess I am rich enough'. Business = business.

So in short, nice points you raise; I think you are bitter - maybe you should consider moving back to the west for a while; cool down and things may become more clear and less heated with the benefit of time IMHO.

How do these classes work?  Someone mentioned they speak only thai?  Thats a bit scary.  Reminds me of trying to learn spanish in HS with a teach who spoke only spanish.  I didnt learn anything.  Its a bit different nowadays though.  I stayed with the brother of a thai friend who did not speak english and I learned a bit of thai over the course of 4-5 days, just picking up on words here and there.

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I went to AUA for a while, but that I could already speak Thai badly...mostly went to improve pronounciation for my work.

THey speak Thai at all levels, with no english really. Actually most of the students aren't western, particularly in the upper levels they are mostly Japanese or CHinese (housewives, plus workers). There are a few english teachers at AUA that also join the classes.

The beginner classes also involve a lot of actions, so in a first lesson, you might learn hello, and then they repeat and repeat and gradually expand; it is 2 people talking back and forth, so you miss some, then understand some; maybe frustrating at the beginning or maybe boring, but it does work.

I know that my Thai got quite a bit clearer when I was going there a lot; mostly for my work I have to speak Thai so I could get away with talking and talking; at AUA it is more about listening in the learner classes, then in the advanced classes we used to have discussions about various things. Ghosts, social, upcountry, that sort of thing. I still remember the week we spent talking about assassins. Good times....even now I would say I would get something out of going to the classes... and while far from good my Thai is good enough to do press conferences and present concepts to clients, host weddings, play with the dog, gamble, etc.

Cheap too.

Michael

Only five days ago, I went to a temple for merit-making with a friend. After we were finished, we chatted for a while with the monk, who complimented me on my Thai (as Thais often do, even if one only knows three sentences and half of them are incorrect ). He then asked me where I come from, and I say, VERY slowly, with exaggerated tones, to avoid misunderstandings : เป็นคนประเทษสวีเด็น ครับ bpen khon bprathêed s-wiiden khrap... and he smiles and says 'Ohh, Switzerlan(d)!'

How many names does your country have? Sweden = Switzerland = Holland = The Netherworld.

Can't you blokes just choose one name for your country? Just because you make chocolate and have a lot of dykes...blimey....

I'd say try the opposite approach of speaking more slowly and clearly.

Sip [pause] eit

Sip [pause] bpairt

then explain

pai soi sip eit. mai chai soi sip bpairt na krub khun pee na kaaaaaaaaa.

(then flutter your eye lids seductively) (optional)

One of the things i used to do to sound more like my mates was speak Thai fast and mutter a lot. While sounding more like a THai (to me) my clarity was not nearly as good as when I spoke slowly, and broke words apart.

So now.... for business I stick to slow and careful in both Thai and english. Fast is just to show off.

To my cat.

The foreigner ought to be allowed to know that he is being asked for five or ten times the price than a local is.

Anyone agree on that??

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Well in many cases it is not that magnitude, but as a general principle I think yes, transparency is the best thing. I'd be happy to pay the cost at Angkor Wat for instance even if all Cambodians got in free. I wouldn't object here either for anything that was 300b. But that's me; people should have enough information to choose for themselves.

So yep, got my vote.

There is however, no law or legal requirement to do so that I can think of. Only one of marketing and of image. Also, needs clear definition of what a local is. For me; either you have Thai citizenship or permanent residency and proof of such on your person = local. Otherwise...not local.

Agreed?

Agree with Siamesekitty on "suay ngam." Not usually heard it used with human (or animal) beauty, at least not spoken language, and has nothing to do with sexiness.

I still think the word "Na rak" should also included. "Suay" means mostly her physical beauty. "Jai dee" means generous or having a "good heart." "Narak" implies that she is lovely or cute in both appearance and manner.

So the sentence could be

Wannee/pom mee/kwam sook maak (or maak maak)/(pause)/tee/mee/panraya/tee/suay/(pause)/narak/(pause)/laew yung jai dee duay (and also generous)

The three adjectives can switch places as you like -- the last one being the added quality (bonus).

Or

Wannee/pom mee/kwam sook maak (or maak maak)/(pause)/tee/dai tang ngarn kub (be married to)/panraya/tee/suay/(pause)/narak/(pause)/laew yung/jai dee duay

"Dai panraya" (imo) has a double meaning or a folksy feeling since "dai" can also be interpret in a sexual way -- as in "dai sia."

Also, don't forget the thank the parents -- a lot (for raising such a good person), and the guests, especially any special guests the parents might have.

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suay ngam is regularly used in formal situations to describe beauty contestants, objects, outfits people and so on. No implication of sexiness, it is more like comparing sanuk to sanuk sanarn; it is a kum serm to add more meaning and character to the sentence. So, no real problem there.

I probably as a man would not use mahk mahk as it sounds a bit like a teenager and also is hard to say clearly.

I also like the getting married bit, as it is clearer to say than saying wife, which my guess is parayah is going to come out wrong, based on your original transliteration.

ACtually, since it is the wedding, you could also use the phrase Jao Sao.

So....(assume name is Sansanee, insert as appropriate, if you want you can use the phrase jao sao instead of her name, in which case you do not need the khun)

Wan nee pom mee kwarm suk mahk

Tee dai dteng ngarn gup Khun Sansanee

Kao bpen kon suay ngarm (pause, and smile, look at her and appreciate)

Lae jai dee krap

Pom kor korp prakhun Khun Por Khun Mair Khun Sansanee

Tee liang doo look tee nah ruk krab

korp prakhun tuk tuk tun tee hai giat mah ruam ngarn nai wun nee krub

And then you can sing the song

mee meea laew gor ao 555555

or

pop meea mah duay ler

5555555555555555555555555555555555555

เธอเป็นคนน่ารักจริงๆ

It mean: You are narak (?)

YOU ARE GENUINELY NARAK.

ขอบคุณนะค่ะ กลับบ้านก่อนนะ เลิกงานแล้ว

THANK YOU.... I WILL GO HOME NOW, FINISHED WORK ALREADY

Now just need to add....

เลิกงานแล้วหรือ นางฟ้ามีวันหยุดด้วยนะคุณณณณณณณณณณณณณณณณณณณณณณณ

Something tells me the OP will still go buy a book, pick it up every so often while on the loo, and believes he will learn to speak conversational Thai with perfect tones in 3 months. lol

Why do you assume this? If you read my posts I clearly state that learning thai is something that I am truely interested in and passionate about. I am willing to put forth the time it takes everyday regardless if that means taking a class, getting a book, using software or a combonation of the 3. There is no reason for your ###### assumptions, if you have nothing of value to add then you can leave this thread.

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jai yen yen

All in good fun....

I suggest also consider:

- learn to read and then practise reading basic stuff out of kiddies books; the alphabet that sotr of thing...read to someone Thai and get them to correct you. The hardest bit won't be speaking, it will be comprehension and also speaking clearly

- stop transliteration as fast as possible; easier to just know the alphabet, and more chances to practise reading/tones

- as you advance further, the column in the BKK Post on every Tuesday is quite good; not sure if they still have the Thai fonts in it

- reading THai cartoons is not bad, or watching Doraemon or similar; simply because kid's language doesn't start going into more difficult language like balance sheets and stuff

- watch Thai soap operas and listen to Thai songs in spare time; try to give up on listening to western music or noise like Foreigner and Neil Diamond (he just does UB40 covers you know )

- school like AUA a must do; keeps you on the straight and narrow plus motivation to keep gonig as you meet friends who are at a similar level

- write a diary everyday, even if only a few words, and get someone to proof it. If i had actually done like my Aunt suggested, I could be great Thai writer, rather than terrible writer and average reader.....

I have heard only 1 farang ever speak Thai close to perfectly who didn't learn as a kid; a few farangs are pretty decent, but hard to eliminate the accent completely if you didn't grow up with it....same as I cannot speak with an American accent (didn't grow up there). But with some work, I think you can get quite decent quite fast. Good luck.

I get to know a lot of Thai graduate students who come to study in the UK. After seeing a front page in the "News of the World " (National Enquirer equivalent) about the Thai sex/child labour/whatever trade they always complain about farang criticising Thailand. It's only after they've been here for a couple of years and see that we criticise many things that they realise that the criticisms aren't aimed at Thailand itself but at the particular behaviour. It's quite gratifying to see how they open up and rid themselves of one of the most pernicious attributes that Thailand has to offer - that of kreng jai 

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Being open to criticism is a pretty different concept to greng jai or am I missing something?

Greng jai is actually a way to ensure people packed together (like in a village for instance) get along without driving eachother nuts. Why so many foreigners seem to have a problem with this, is IMHO greng jai is often used as an excuse not to do work/have a confrontation etc and to the western mind, this does not seem efficient use of time - "sort out the problem now and we'll make up after work with some beers"... can be done here, but need to tread carefully.

I've found that constant complainers here tend to struggle a bit - both Thai and westerners. People just turn off. However, people who choose their battles carefully, and plan a way to present their idea in the right way have just as much success changing things here as anywhere else. A LOT of foreigners come in here and just start mouthing off on all the many things that displease them; at some point people start to (sadly) stereotype and assume that the people from that country just complain, let's ignore them.

The sad thing about stereotypes, is we then selectively see evidence to back that up; as per the sex trade bit. They hear this bit, and then conclude that the world is against them. a part of the conflict resolution. After all, for many of the Thai girls studying overseas, to suddenly learn that their country which they always knew to have some minor sex thing going on is actually considered a sex capital of the world and there are some men actually assuming that they are also prostitutes etc etc can be somewhat of an eye opener.

So who might be guilty of complaining? English in NZ have that reputation for instance. Americans also often have that reputation as tourists. For instance, I cringe having to go out with some of my American friends from New York anywhere; their expectation of service and their response to what they receive is just sometimes not appropriate based on what they are paying and where they are located. And that's not just here in Thailand either.

If you take a complaint for what it is worth though, whittle through and it is a suggestion. Sort of. So why is it that these complaints don't get sorted?

One of the key differences is that introducing competition, eliminating monopolies and deregulation with the consequent open and transparent operating systems are a great check for how things are really going. You don't do a good job, you suffer financially. But because Thailand has not done that in many sectors (civil service, power, water, etc) there are lots of places where considerable improvement is needed.

Also, often the suggestions, while well meaning are either to someone who cannot change or alter the system (and therefore the complaint is just wasting 2 people's time - a concept many foreigners would do well to remember) or are of minor consequence with regards to the big picture or are great ideas but the organisation or group just has no incentive to improve.

This idea that Thai people don't complain. Never observed it myself. Hear complaints all the time. But the key thing is, Thai people tend to complain less when they feel their complaint will fall on deaf ears. And of course there sometimes can be the issue of greng jai.

at age 52, I calculate I may have only about 20 years to live.  and of those 20 years, about 7 years is asleep leaving only 13 years of active living.

only 13 years left..

am I going to spend most of that valuable time complaining about the world????

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I don't really get your point Haha.

Older people sleep less.

So maybe you can complain an hour a day, PROVIDED you are willing to sleep one hour less.

Therefore, you CAN have your cake, and eat it too. And then complain about it. Just trim off time for beddy byes.

Also, if you were to eat a diet rich in cheese, eggs, and other constipation enducing ingredients, you might be able to go to the toilet just once a year. Imagine. 5 minutes saved 364 days a year for extra whining!!!! And as they say, you could have some cheese with that whine.

And then... eating faster.

Not brushing your teeth or hair.

Inventing a lesbian robot to wash your dishes and put out the trash.

The time savings are considerable.

Never complain that there is no time to complain. The world is your oyster, Dear Haha, do your best to ruin it for others by incessant whining

thanks  for  you guys ,  violin,  quitar,paino keybord even  banjo  i will think about it  again  

just found 2500bht violin ..i still have time to think about it

or  maybe  try this one

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Dtee ching rer???!!!!!! Kor doo noi :-)

Drums.... well.... as they say...

Q: Who likes to hang out with the musicians

A: The drummer

 

Yep many americans had no idea where New Zealand was until XENA and Lord of the rings!!!

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Now of course they know that New Zealand is somewhere in Middle-Earth.

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And that Irish like to visit New Zealand, because they are always up for the crak. Of Doom.

I know all the surveys say 60%+ percent of Americans don't have a passport, and XX% don't know where XYZ country is, but how come everyone I met in Cali knows where NZed is, and a far few even know where Thailand is?

I wonder where all these ignorant ppl are living? Can an American comment on this? I assume somewhere in the mid west in the middle bit maybe?

More disturbingly, the number of NZers upon learning I am 1/2 Thai who say, when will I be bombing China/can I get them a cheap ACER, how come my Chinaman talk sounds funny - is there some atlas with Taiwan but missing Thailand??? Seems pretty common....

It is a deeply unequal society, least of all to Farangs. I think focussing on dual pricing is a detail. Are we going to start a 60's style civil rights movement for downtrodden and discriminated-against Farangs?

This is fascinating.... so... you are saying that this policy is only against farangs?

Here i thought it was foreigners being discriminated against.... but is it only farangs?

If you think farangs have it here worst as foreigners...well I just cannot agree with that. Indians, Africans with dark skin... definitely get worse treatment than most farangs.

Mind you, most would not have enough money to get into the national parks perhaps; although then again TAT spending statistics for Indians being higher per day than for almost all farang countries (due to the upper echelon flying here to do their luxury shopping), the survey of the TAT is quite baised towards legal entry by air; coming in overland does not get surveyed that I recall in their 10,000 person questionnaire that they do at the airport.

Still, every country has some racism; at least every country I've ever been to, and I stand by the assertion that indians get it worst here in Thailand. So if I were to start any anti discrimination campaign (which I am not) then I would probably start with either 'embrace foreigners equally' campaign OR 'embrace Indians and put down the stick when you see a snake' campaign.... not 'downtrodden farangs'.

A 60s style movement can start when a decent number of farang who are Thai citizens have rights protected under the laws and constitution as a Thai citizens. Might have to get in the queue with the hill tribes and displaced people and pretty much all the poor in Thailand who get their rights trod on all the time. Do you think modern society has the desire to stand up for things they believe in like in the 60s? Carrying on that anology... I would say it could lead to the right of all farang with Thai citizenship to be given the right to the lower of the dual or mutiple prices. I also agree that it should be entirely open; people should have a right to see what they are paying. On many signs it is now bi lingual that I have seen. But I've seen very few signs compared to how many are out there.

To eliminate the pricing completely, I think the key is to convince the government that the damage to the country's reputation outweighs the financial gain. Can see the gem scams, dodgy tuk tuks, rampant prostitution and other issues probably being other issues worth discussing at the same time. From a legal standpoint, Maori people in NZ get free access to all fishing for trout - all other people pay. You must have a local partner to set up business in Saudi. Residents get discounts (as discussed earlier) all over the world. Businesses use price discrimination all the time. So the case cannot be won from a legal standpoint, that I can see - cannot see any law being applied when precedents exist all over the show for preferential treatment by nationality.

I believe in transparency for the whole thing - people should know how much they pay (although I might point out in some USA Ski resorts locals get all sorts of discounts I as a visitor neither know about or am eligible for); still not convinced that the budgets of the parks could necessarily survive without the additional funding from the tourist foreigners; and not convinced some poor family taking an annual trip to see Phanom Rung could afford to pay a lot more for the ticket....who can say?

As someone said it's only money and you are doing better than mostof the wolrd.  Go to The Global Rich List for a reality check.

You are also comparing $US to Thai Baht!!  This always makes for confusion.

240,000baht is RELATIVELY a lot of money.  Can you tell me that the person in that position holds (in reality) that much more responsibility, and (in reality) works that much harder?

Come on!  How can you justify that massive wage disparity.  US$ don't count.

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Well, if someone is willing to pay a person that much per month ( and most of my Thai friends of my age or the next 10 years up all earn somewhere around that number of above) then they must be doing something right. Market forces and all dat innit.

I thought to get a work permit you HAD to earn at least about 60k a month excluding teachers/journalists/volunteers? So surely most of the expats here would be earning that and most likely considerably more than that?

While in the provinces people don't earn that much, the economy in Bangkok is somewhat different; for many industries (excluding civil service, government related industries, small enterprises employing upcuontry labour) a Bangkok born and bred employee with a degree from an ok univerisity might expect to reach 30k a month by age 30 without too much problem; for a foreign educated masters grad with solid language skills, 100k by age 30 would be ambititious but very possible.

And of course some industries like mgt consulting pay well good wages beyond that sort of level.

Of course, many people earn less than that too.

The problem is that for non-business journalists, english teachers and educators, the degree of interaction with the business world is perhaps not so great, so harder to see the levels of wages in play at the moment.

Regarding McDs employees.... about $6++ an hour; if they are really earning $60k USD a year.....well no wonder there are so many immigrants working at McDonalds :_)

Well, heat and anyone with money to learn would probably play actual golf... however, I like the idea of an indoor mini golf at a shopping mall.... there is some merit to this ..like the indoor go karts; not too hot, open at night, yep, could work.

Does Dreamworld have minigolf?

Meanwhile, let us know what you have done... for anyone other than yourself.

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Hey, he's alledgedly spent time with Miss Thailand...

although that was totally discredited in another thread.

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Guesthouse -

I admire your efforts to stand up for something you believe in. If you are interested in pushing your perspective further, I am happy to put you on a TV show I am involved with - PM me about it ok?

What have I done for someone other than myself? Well, let's see, raised 5m+ baht for registered charities over the last 15 months - I guess that would count for something. And no, this is not my job, this was voluntary.l

Sriracha John - it might pain you to know that I at one point I was actually very much part of the model scene (1/2 Thai and all that) so I know quite well several Miss Universes and Thailands. But the one in question, that was the Australian Miss Thailand World; yes did run into her right before she left; just when posting I do not take great care in getting all details correct. She would definitely be paying the foreigner price So not entirely discredited, although well done for raising that strawman argument at just the right time

happy time :-)

Tenkui.

You say here maybe one of the other residents complained.

Sure you may not have done anything wrong.  So on principle, you should not have to fix it.  But that is not how things work in a collective society where bitching and moaning are not as popular as other places;

But here you say that complaining usually doesn't get you anywhere.  So which is it?  I am not trying to pick a fight with you but actually curious in the duality of your statement.  I still believe it is not the guards responsibility to worry about what the residents are doing unless it is detrimental to the other residents.  What a resident does is their business and no one elses. 

Well, if bringing back lots of women to the point of making the place like a house of ill repute OR playing loud music, another resident might make the point to the management that a certain resident was affecting the quality of the development. The action that might be taken would not probably be direct, to avoid confrontation pressure would be applied in other ways; such as petty stuff like this.

Bitching and moaning (as seems to occur non stop on the internet) is very different to constructive complaints IMHO. Also, there is manner in which it is delivered, and it just seems some people (Thai included) cannot control themselves or how loud they talk and therefore they look like they are a spoilt kid yelling to get something. It hardly works in the west and it for the most part does not work here. Lastly, who to complain to; choosing only to talk to someone who can take action rather than just whining to people who might listen.

Hope that makes my view point somewhat more clear.

I totally believe that complaining and suggesting are ways to improve; however the way in which they get executed effectively is a whole different thing between different countries.

I'd go for the guitar, you can practise the Violin for an absolute age and it can still sound like drowning cats in a sack, but 2 hours on the Guitar will have you strumming an A chord, a C Chord and an E chord, voila...Music

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I would also suggest learning either piano/keyboard or guitar.

Both can play multiple notes straight away; easy to play songs you know that sort of thing. You can play alone and there are countless compositions for both in all hte styles. Violin only really sounds great IMHO playing classical, and played well it is amazing; however it sucks for jazz or modern music; the sound doesn't fit. And yes Stephan Grapelli is musically onto it, but it just sounds wrong.

The violin is a VERY challenging instrument; it takes at least a couple of years to get past the sounding like killing a cat sound. It also is kind of sore to play in the neck. As a left hander I was told to give up as I could never be good unless I played it back to front (in which case I could never play in an orchestra), so I didn't play it for long (I did however also play the piano for quite a bit longer) - something to think about if you are left handed.

Learning the piano or guitar, you learn how chords work so you can be able to write and make stuff up yourself; single note instruments are harder to understand those concepts on.

I would go for guitar or an electronic keyboard.

More fun!

The sign on the park gate declares a bit more than the dual price (Regardless of whether you pay it or not).

It declares to everyone, and in particular every Thai, that it is acceptable to rip foreigners off. The government are doing it, why shouldn't every Thai business, every Thai/Farang transaction be at a double price.

I think you'll find that foreign students pay the full rate, while local (state) students pay the subsidized rate.

That asside, the issue is not dual pricing in the US, the issue is dual pricing in Thailand. This being a Thailand related web board (as we are so often reminded).

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Well, you can't have it both ways! Dual pricing in both countries is exactly the same; surely it could be argued that in both cases (which is the justification usually given) that:

- taxes and or national reasons justify why locals should be able to partake of that attraction (education or otherwise)

- locals cannot afford to pay the full price or have subsidised already

- if someone else is willing to pay the full price, then let's let them (marketing 101, price elasticity)

Full rate vs. subsidised rate.

There are a host of indsutries employing dual pricing:

- insurance (various)

- banks (almost always)

- healthcare

- amusement parks (at least when I was there last - Disney was cheaper for Californians)

- car rental

- ski resorts

- hotels (local only pricing)

So please explain to me in simple logic how a dual price in all of these cases worldwide does not lead me to believe that dual pricing for people aged under 25/non white/elderly/non-local etc etc means that I will rip them off thereafter?

Next argument of the anti dual price... well the rich Thai who has never paid any income tax hasn't subsidised anything anyway, so if I am a local living here paying tax why should I be penalised.. well in most cases already documented in this thread, enforcement is far from consistent. And besides which some foreigners here aren't paying much tax either through various arrangements. Fact is the average wage of locals here is far less than the average tourist visiting the park - check out NESDB income stats and compare to average spend per tourist per day by country to see. So.... clearly there is a cross subsidisation going on with (generally) the richer tourists subsidising the poorer (generally) locals. Yes, exceptions, but then again I was aged under 25 drove like a model citizen, and I couldn't convince the insurance company that they shouldn't charge me 5X more rates. But then again insurance companies did rip me off so maybe you have a point.

Next argument of the anti dual price... but it is 20 times!!!! Ok, now this is a magnitude issue; 20 times is pretty much the same factor for foreign education in NZ - however now we can start talking about what a fair dual price range might be IF we think we have to have it, and that is a conversation I cannot recall ever seeing.

Regarding rip offs for farang; if you are a kee nok farang that knows s&*t about doing business here you deserve to lose your shirt, the same as anyone who tries to do business in a market where they know nothing.

But then again, prattling about all this rubbish on a forum is not going to change anything; I wonder how many of the people who care so strongly about dual pricing have ever:

- made a case to the Tourism Authority

- met with the Governor to discuss

- developed a PR campaign to present to the general Thai public

- met with the Tourism Minister

- offered to work as a volunteer or assist in fund raising to assist in the running of the public parks

A minimal number no doubt... but I would be interested to know....