DK2223

What I can say now is, if Suthep is clever then he will except her invitation and go for discussion with open transparency to the public during the meeting. If Yingluck is clever she won't run and face him for the discussion in public (but the problem is transparency to all politicians is like a death role). With this move, they can stop the civil unrest. But the problem is this, if Suthep didn't get what he wants, then he need to accept the majority vote on the new reform system and not by his own reform system. But for me I know one thing, he will again not accept the majority reform system as the is not what he wants.

It is a tragedy.

Thailand does not seem to be able to organize unity and justice.

The division of the country appears deeper than ever before.

To find compromises, searching for a better fairer solution, appears alien.

The political system has many faults.

And, unfortunately, the so-called "elected" representatives of the people, take advantage shamelessly only for themselfs.

The necessary changes, reforms and the honorable work of politicians will this country never experience,

as long convicted criminals, corrupt people and only of themselves thinking people sit in Parliament and key positions.

Every Thai I've talked to, all like to be rid of these greedy cancer.

But they do not know how to do it.

As the greatest hope remains the Constitution Court

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/688398-bt2-trillion-loan-bill-halted-pending-court-ruling/

Hopefully the court judges with a variety of parliamentary requirements to be met in the future, no matter who is in power.

Like for all future budgeting processes they make it compulsory for all future governments, that

- the use of money for project proposals are accurately represented in detail and coherent on the last baht.

- the use of money for project proposals is described in detail for all people publicly documented and visible

- Public monthly or quarterly reports on Finance and project progresses.

- Public invitation for project proposals and at least three competitive compare offers.

- Project completion reports including all expenses with receipts.

- a strong supervisory committee composed of members is formed by all parties,

to control the entire investment process without disabilities and time delay restrictions.

The results of the process and progress checks are presented to the parliament.

The members of the supervisory body should rotate so that corruption is impossible or more difficult.

When public funds are used, then the public has the right to see what the representatives of the people plan to do with the money and how it was used.

It must be prevented that a country can be completely plundered by a few unethical people just because they are currently in power.

Some good constructive ideas here. However much of what is proposed here is in place already. The lack of an effective opposition is a major problem that can't be fixed. That is until there is a party in opposition that refrains from from trying to moderate government by going for the Prime Minister's juggler on day one.

Further there is the cultural Thai issues wherein every last citizen wants to be an insider so that they can exploit the system corruptly. PM Thaksin didn't invent corruption in Thai politics it has been the order of the day ever since the Monarchy signed the original constitution.

The only way to find out if the Yingluck government can get Thailand out of the mire that it has been in since the last coups de terre is for PTP run to term.

If the Democrat party had set their stance to being professional in opposition whilst building a stronger political party they could win next election. Should the end result of four years of PTP be disappointing the Democrats might win easily.

"It must be prevented that a country can be completely plundered by a few unethical people just because they are currently in power"

Here the problem is the Thai judiciary which is too easily pushed into a pro elite frame of mind. Not surprising because the are elite themselves and who some say 'feed at the trough' themselves too. To keep blaming the constitution is pointless. Better perhaps to revert to the 1997 constitution which was so effective that Thaksin's enemies had to conspire to enable a military coups to get rid of him. Why not impeach him? They were not prepared to wait! Hugh.

In spite of all the ranting of Suthep and the Abhisit's Democrats both Thaksin and Yingluck were the lawful Prime minister's of Thailand, yet they were illegally driven out without the support of their electorate or Thai Law. Scandalous!

Thank you for reflecting.

Just one thought on that:

"The lack of an effective opposition is a major problem that can't be fixed."

mostly true, but it is more.

For example:

The opposition ask the government many times to present or report actual numbers about the rice scheme.

But the government simply do not reply.

The strong separation of public administration and government does not exist or is in many places corrupted.

The opposition can not perform its control function if the government blocks and also the public administration has no information available.

So what options does an opposition in this country have, when there is a suspicion that

state budgets are used for other purposes or even parts going to be robbed?

(From every 100% state Fund, used for projects, maximum of 60% will be used for the purpose, the rest disappears in (un)known dark holes / pockets).

What could be a possible solution to prevent this in the future??

Hi just to answer your answer on the last question, no there is nothing to prevent it, but yes we can control the percentage to be lower. Why I can say that is because if any people that have experience dealing with government tender project they will answer the same way. Due to I have this kind of experience before in my home country with current and international co-operation project before.

I agree. Like I say in past forum, Suthep has no idea how it want it to reform and how he want the whole thing to stop. There is ways for political reform in the country, is just not he wants due to this will bring no benefits to him (etc: Transparency, anti-corruption, education and many others). When they have the chance in the government, they did not make any changes so people go back to other parties and this is the main down fall of the opposition. For me what I can see here is that Suthep doesn't want reform at all he want is to maintain power for himself and the people financing him. He started the rally with a good reason to push against for the amnesty bill, and after he saw the people support for him, he take the advantage to overthrow the currently government (the ways used has now gone to far) by selling promise and idea that the people wanted to hear. But the problem now back fire on him, after he start selling, he do not have an idea how to make the promise happen or end the things without losing the people trust, so he started with the people council and all other promise but himself know that this can't happen. A real politician doesn't ask to change this and that in the law, but how to used it to make them in power (by the end Laws is set by human and it will have it flaw). For me no matter how Suthep change the law, as long as it cannot bring power to him, he will no stop and all coming back to square one. As for Thaksin, I don't really agree with him, but at least now he is a little clever on how to play this game.

In the statement "The retired commanders-in-chief also called on the current top military brass to come out and stand by the side of the Monarch and of the people immediately to prevent bloodshed before the rising political tension is kept out of hand". So just to ask, isn't dissolve the house of representative, to have a new election, the currently government to be the caretaker and election to beheld on Feb 2 is in the Royal degree from the King? and the currently military want to proceed with the election on Feb 2 as the King requested is by the meaning standing by the side of the Monarch? So just end me up with one question, what is the former brass saying? The King is also taking side?

i am reading all these replies and what I see is that I guess in your country there is NO CORRUPTION Right??????? You all better wake up every country in the world has corrupt politicians that all they wants is power and money. So what is the difference here in Thailand? NO DIFFERENCE.

Yes, there's corruption then there's corruption on a scale so large people can't ignore it. PTP kind of corruption is costing this country trillions of baht and that kind of money is money this country can't afford to lose. I read about people in this present government crying and moaning about lost revenue from the tourists while they ignore the billions of baht lost because the rice pledging corruption scheme and then there's also the 2 trillion baht infrastructure bill. Yeah that's all about building up this country!

Hi there, I agree with you that Thailand can't afford to lose this kind of money and I also agree with you on your last sentence. Just to ask do you know how a business is run? For me corruption is everywhere so I don't want to say anything on this but you mention on the 2 trillion baht infrastructure bill and sorry to say I support on that bill. Every business need a investment we cannot just do nothing and waiting the money to come in. Don't look at the present situation and look into 10 - 20 years in the future then you will understand. For me no matter is this a cause for corruption or what you can say but to me I see the fact and the future. After announcing the bill on infrastructure, the country foreign reserve went up and baht currency in the highest time. So think, what you want is to live in an undeveloped country (3rd world country), or a country that can have a international eye on it.

This protest is interesting. I hope nothing will go wrong. For me now I can see the opposition is getting more and more unreasonable, do they all know there is international laws apply at every Embassy in every country. So lets see how it play out.

Now we know what he really want. He said "We can keep on fighting for a year and more people will join, but I know that it will affect the economy," but for me this is an excuse due to he know if he prolong this, people will start to go off and he will lose everything. People know that in a democratic country, the last is to dissolve the parliament and proceed with general election where really the people power come in (Don't tell me on vote buying or corruption. This is all BS, people are not stupid). Next he say "setting up a 400-member people's council, with 100 of the members appointed by the PDRC," with this what he plan and know about democracy? or with this statement we know that he want his hand on the power for himself? and now he "urged rural doctors across the country to work with people from various professions in setting up provincial PDRC units and discuss the reform of the country," now he act on behalf as the King to tell civil servant and people what to do.

All I can see from him is just influence people with ideas and promises but do not know what to do and how to be done. For me, he really need to know what is the different between democracy and dictatorship.

For me, your last sentence says it all. Does anyone in Thailand really know the difference? Yet, I have so many Thai friends who have degrees and master degrees in political science ! Its a very popular degree here, and many have achieved them at foreign universities.

All know the current electoral and system is flawed, as is the parliamentary checks and balances. PTP want to keep the bits that they can easily manipulate to favor themselves and change the other parts that don't favor them. Suthep knows this needs changing, but doesn't have a clue how to change it, or what it should look like. So he reverts back to a dictatorship type approach albeit softened by allowing what he considers a representative peoples' council. The military, quite sensibly know this isn't the answer, and that more real negotiation and hard thinking is required.

The problem with all this is Thaksin and Suthep. One is a self centered megalomaniac who has demonstrated sociopathic tendencies in his quest for all out power and totally dominates the party he owns and rules. The other is a front man for less visible old money power who has become carried away with his/there vision of a Thailand run by elites and those deemed socially worthy. These, and their parties are hardly likely to enter any discussions or negotiations with the interest of the people and country at heart are they? They will have their own agendas - absolute power and control for their own benefit and revenge on their opponents.

Until this changes, the merry go round will continue. The military know that another coup isn't the answer. The legal system, enforcement of law, fairly to all, by a professional police force and impartial judiciary and bar all need to be established. Political parties, whoever they are, must respect the law, the constitution, parliamentary procedures and be subject to public scruitiny and transparency, especially in financial matters.

The corruption is so endemic and enshrined here that there's little hope of change. If the military stay out, Thaksin will dig deep in the coffers to ensure his party win. All the old gang have finished their bans now so he can bring them back. The 2,2 trillion and 350 million will be used to pay off the farmers, replenish the clan coffers, and oil the wheels. Laws will be changed to favor the clan and keep them in power. If the military come in, a small number of people will rule Thailand as their own fiefdom, as they have done for a long time already. Both groups will continue to ruthlessly use and exploit the Thai people, whilst paying homage to their Chinese ancestors.

What a shit choice the poor Thai people actually have.

Thanks and you are really correct. If people really understand the way to play politics, they do not need any degree for that. Thai people don't have any choice as I can see now. Changes must be done in the government by using the correct and democratic ways and Thai people really need to think on what they want for the future of the country and themselves but not by just listening to the leaders by telling them what they want to listen.

We all know that balances can only be done by both side. Then the country will be a better place. For me both side must find a solution out to settle by starting to let go of the past.

One of the more interesting points about Suthep is that despite all his years as a top dog in the Dems, he would appear to be now saying that the Democrats are equally corrupt and useless and not fit to govern the Country (a sentiment that I would totally agree with!). Why else would he be calling for his "Peoples' Council" and not for all good men to roll their sleeves up and work for a Dem victory in the polls?

I wonder what little Mark feels about that? Anyone heard a squeek from the Dems recently? Apart from their floundering about like a fish out of water deciding whether to boycot the election, or not as the case may be.

All politicians are by their very nature corrupt, they mostly go in to politics to see what they can get out of it, but at least normally you can get rid of the worst at an election, if an unelected "peoples Council" is put in place there is no way they will give up the power that they will undoubtely aquire, it will then slide into a dictatorship, this will mean either the armed forces will stage another coup to return to a democracy "eventually" or we will all have to suffer becoming an international pariah with the rest of the ASEN countries slowly withdrawing support just in case it becomes a catching "disease" after all no-one likes an infected country on their borders, it has taken decades for Myanmar to become a more acceptable country internationally and that appears to be the direction that Sutep wants to move Thailand despite or because the majority of Thais who are apathetic about politics as all they see is different faces, same corruption who ever is in power. That is what Suthep wants is POWER for himself to make himself rich at the expense of Thailand by any means possible!

I totally agree with you. The thing is that people here or the Thai people don't really understand politics and politicians. They are all dirty in one way or the other no matter who. Like I say in other forum, politics for all the politicians is like money into their pocket. To them if there is no benefits why they choose to be in politic the first place. I have deal with politicians in my country and they are all the same no matter in my country or Thailand. One thing always come first for them is their benefits and their pocket. So the fact is we just need to accept the fact and do the changes with the correct way by not crushing the economy and the people.

Imagine this clown spouting his crap in the UK or USA.

He will be arrested and jail for internal state terrorism act due to starting something by don't have any reason and proper solution for it.

Suthep and the Dems had their chance to change the system only three years ago when they held the reins of power so how come they passed that opportunity up? Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Correct, when they are the government, they have the right to do anything like set up the people council and fight corruption but then didn't happen. Why? For me because corruption is a practice in every politician or people with power. Just ask him a very good question, where is all the money come from to set up a protest rally that we know cause a lot of money? and he is on the stage using the words " Stop Corruption". What he is saying to get the support from the people is really a joke.

The big problem here is that Suthep has nothing to lose by carrying on to the bitter end.

Under any sort of Thaksin regime, he's toast anyway, so why would he not go to any extreme to bring them down, even if it means trashing the country?

He should be offered a way out; two-year holiday in a salubrious spot like, say, Dubai, or Montenegro.

As Sun Tzu said: "When you surround the enemy, always allow them an escape route. They must see that there is an alternative to death."

A very good saying, that is why I don't understand why people still believe him. He don't even think of the benefit for the country and people living in it. There is always a way out for him, the matter is he do not want to go that way.

Jade Donavanik, of Siam University's Faculty of Law, said that with a House dissolution failing to satisfy protesters, having an election when the conflict was still simmering would only bring more problems to the country. He suggested the government resign as caretaker administration and pave the way for a neutral Cabinet to take over.

Maybe a better solution than Sutheps.

I wonder if Suthep would be happy with that? Seems he wants to control things a bit more than that!

You may have missed this little gem in your rush to condemn the idea.....

"The protesters demanded the government be replaced by a non-elected "people's council" and an interim administration that consists of no politicians."

Suthep has already stated he will take no part in the council.

There is no such thing as neutral. Everyone has a political preference whether they make it public or not.

Stop dreaming and tell the kids to grow up.

Suthep is a clown.

He may be a clown but he is far more popular and powerfull than the puppet PM and her criminal clown master. I am guessing he is the latest in a long line of men to bring Yingluck to her knees, maybe now she has pause to stand up for herself.

I agree everyone has a subjective political opinion but I am not as jaded as you, some people have the preference of empathy and community service rather than apathy and self service, as clearly demonstrated during the protests.

Let make and example, TS is not in the government not but people are say he involve behind the scene. So can we say that you say "Suthep has already stated he will take no part in the council." can we say that he will be involve behind the council using the same way the opposition saying on the current government that they are TS puppet. So can we say that People Council is Suthep puppet. Grow up and don't be so innocent.

Then you mention on "POWERFUL", let you tell you a fact, power come with money and money come with power. Please learn some general knowledge before you take side.

Perfect choice. Suthep and the Democrats said that nobody trusts her anymore and nobody wants her to lead the country anymore. Let the Thai people speak (and then, Democrats, if you don't win for 23 years in a row, please shut up forever).

Strictly speaking people cannot vote for Ms. Yingluck when she's just a party list candidate

Precisely! It's a done deal... she comes back as a LIST CANDIDATE... and then swans back into the top spot, and, dare one say it, she'll be an UNELECTED PM (Puppet Muppet). For those posters who decry the protestors as undemocratic, I hope they are able to see the dumb hypocrisy of their ranting.

The country has been well and truly stitched up.

Right, so a PM that is elected by a sufficient majority of MP's (296 in her case) is an unelected PM ? How do you think the MP's got into the position to vote in the first place. There is nothing undemocratic about it and is precisely according to the rules. However appointing a people's council, which has no democratic mandate whatsoever IS undemocratic and is not within the law.

Nice statement. Until now I still cannot see the layout of plan by the opposition on the people council proposal. By the end, what I can see is a leader selling the idea without knowing how it will works and the people is buying without any understanding anything.

Then it will be a never ending story with no happy ending.

Hi all just to ask a question, If let say all the "Shin's clan' and family leave Thailand for good, then can who please tell me that they can grantee there won't be any of TS or Shin's clan involvement in Thailand politic? and can anyone tell me that there won't be any other story or finger pointing to be started all over again? By the end, politic are always chickens and eggs story and when other people want to gain power, they will say and do anything to get it. So politic crisis start all over again.

The only way to stop all this is the 2 party stop pointing finger and people of Thailand have to let go of the past in order to have a better future.

And all people need to start accepting that when one party win through democracy election, the other opposition just need to accept the fact they lose (regarding they like it or not) and work by the law to prove to the people that they are more better then the currently government so they can win the next election. (and please say to me regarding the buying vote and giving money. This is all BS cause no one put a gun at the head of the people that are voting)

He won. So go suck it up.

won what?

government still there

Shinawatras still there

Dems will lose again for 9th time running

I'm not a fan of either side, but it does seem obvious that the democrats/yellowshirts caused all this strife, only to lose another election. What is the point?

that's my take too but Thais are famous for the 'I'll take 10 baht today and not worry about the 100 tomorrow' Dems have lost 9 in a row and can't see that changing even with Dear Leader proposing a 'people's council' (made up of whom?) madness!

You are right, until now he still do not have a solution to stop everything in his flavor due to what he sell to the people is too much. So what he can do now is to delay the time to find the best way to get the power back to him. So let see what he wants to resolve next?

Now we can see the move from the opposition. He is now revealing the true plan behind everything he sell to the people. If what he is doing now is to go against the police department than this is bad news to him and the people of Thailand. By doing this he have go against the law of the country. You all forgotten something, there is still a higher power then the government. Your King still have the right and the army is still under your king command.

For me is simple, the opposition wants power then just give it to them. See if he is able to do what he promise to the people regarding on the "People Council" and what do he mean by giving back the power to the people? and what he will do on corruption and dictatorship.

If he really able to setup a people council, let see how clean from corruption this council will be. There will be a disadvantage in all this, if the International community cannot accept this type of government then Thailand will be a waste land with very bad economy crisis.

Let me put it this way, when everything is in the chaos (SET index down, currency down, civil unrest, tourism market down, Multinational 500 company holding back their investment, new investor changing the investment to other country, and many more) So total economy crisis in Thailand.

So let face the fact, all politician win and the real loses will be the country economy and people living in it.

Why I say that, let face the reality. politician who lose will just resign or leave the country, the ones who win will get what they want but remember they all are rich. So what happen to all the people that help the political party win and force the others to lose? The people will go back the same life and get nothing in return and when the economy down turn, who will be suffering, the people again.

So whatever outcome, for me the loser will always be the people and the economy.

You all now can see. but for me I am still waiting for his agenda behind all the selling and idea. I want to see if really what he say to the people is what he really will do. Guys and girls, don't trust a politician and furthermore he is an old politician. And I want to see how the ways he propose the people council?

I can't imagine anyone making these kinds of demands in any other democracy.

Agree, like in say in other post, "An educated person act and talk like a child demanding thing from their parents".

This guy is such a plank. :-)

My thoughts exactly..

He knows that an election will bring back the current government - but then it's what the people of Thailand want. Sooner or later they will have to accept that democracy means that who wins an election is the chosen person to lead, regardless of whether they agree or not.

All of those who scream vote buying.. don't be so naive to think that it's just one party doing it.. we got the same amount from all candidates last time

totster

Good statement. Politic and politician is always dirty. When thing happen out not the way they wanted, they start pointing finger to the opposite.

So Suthep is after the world record then?

Sent from my GT-I9200 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

That is why I say, an educated person talk like a child and demanding from the government like a child demanding from there parents. Cannot say no must do as he requested.

And now he wants to talk about "dictatorship". What a funny statement..

Hi all, we as a foreigner in this country will not benefit if whoever win of lose. Let be neutral in this issue and see what is the impact and face the reality. Let not take side.

1st all people talk about corruption. Do we really understand corruption? As i know, we can control corruption but can never stop corruption now or in the future. We all know that when there is power involve, corruption will be there. We cannot change this fact and we just need to face reality and accept it. Just give you all an example, a policeman at the roadside have been doing corruption and what do we think a person as powerful as a politician don't have. For me all politic and politician is dirty and politic for them is like money flowing to their pockets. How full is their pockets does not matter, what really matter is what they will do for the country economy and people is the main issue. Just to ask a question, we all know that doing something as big as road protesting need a lot of money. Do we every ask our self where do the leader of the group get all the money? "Remember they all are also politician".

2nd people that about dictatorship. Do they really know what is dictatorship? I come from a country that the country runs by the same government since the first day of independent and have been for the past 50 over years until present.The only person can practice dictatorship is the King of the country and no one else can. The opposition always used the phase stop government dictatorship and a see what is they doing now? What they are doing now is not call dictatorship by over throw the currently government and creating civil unrest? then what is it call? by influence the people to go against the law of the country?

3rd let talk about what is right or wrong. General protest to voice out is right, but now is not a general protest anymore. No matter what we know that we cannot occupied the government building and parliament as this is the main administration of the country. This way is only use by terrorist to paralyses a country administration and to make the country economy down the drain. But what I can see now is the same people that is living in doing that without realizing the effect on the country and them. In some country, this kind of act is counted as internal terrorist act and the leader can be put to jail for a very long time.

Everywhere we go, corruption and dictatorship exist no matter in business or government. I very agree that the government need to change the way how they run it but I don't agree with the way that the opposition is doing now. By the end of the day, I can only see that the country economy and the people of Thailand will lose, not the politician. The opposition is very clever in the way how they influence the people to follow them to over throw the government by using the phase "People Council" and give back the power to the people. Then let me ask the Thai people? isn't the currently government is elected by you?

Then we talk about buying vote and the failure of the election system. Buying vote is just phase use by the opposition to influence the people. Lets say in reality, political party give money to the people to vote for them, but by the end of the day, the people will have the right to choose the government because there will be no prove that the people follow what the paying party say and they still receive the money.Correct?

Then the concept of "people council" come in. As what I can see, we cannot run a country like we run a village. There will be no way the international community will accept this kind of government country. All people know that a business or country will need to have a leader not a council with a lot of people that have different thinking. Talking about the "People Council" who will elect the committee member and on what ground and law they need to follow? Can you grantee that the people council will not have corruption? The opposition leader in their heart know that the people council will not work and they are selling it to the people because this is what they want to hear so the people will continue to follow them.

Then I can see that the opposition talking about "Thaksin regime" and the involvement of him in the politic of the country?Just to ask do the opposition have any solid prove to support the statement or all the statement is just a big guess and can the opposition grantee that when they run the government there will not be any Thaksin involvement in politic? no one can grantee that because how deep is he no one know. Right? Then why want to take all the past reason to over throw the country?

I just want to say tell all Thai people to wake up and face the reality and fact, not just to listen to what they wants to hear. The fact is the past is the past, do not bring the past to live in the present and future. If the people of Thailand can't move forward, then the country will never move forward. Remember, government by the end run the country by term basis, you don't like the current the just elect the opposite but you all will live, eat, survive in this country forever. Don't just because of a few mistake done in the past effect the future of this country.

The country not really run by the government, but by the economy done by the people in the country. Without a stable economy and a stable mentality of the people, the country will never move forward. without the country moving forward, the economy cannot grow and when economy don't grow, the people in the lower and middle class will always remain the same or even worst. Please all Thai people, look at what is happening to the country just because of some leader selling empty promise and empty statement. You all are better then this.

We always live in the cycle of life. One thing done will connect with the second and so on. Just start to think by yourself and make this a better country. Don't because of a small group of politician just want what they want, YOU people of Thailand cause the downturn of your own country. Start to think and face the reality.