dhream

I don't think he is talking about "neutral" posters. He is talking about posters that are not honest about their real agenda.

Who are they?

What is their real agenda?

Ulysses, whom I agree with in other threads, on matters of the tart, is unfortunately suffering from 'reds under the bed' syndrome.

He is using disingenuous means to infer that people who call for calm heads and and rational thought to deal with a vexed issue, are Jihad supporters.

At least i think that's his argument.

He seems to infer that he gets so wound up that his posts are removed. They must be pretty hair-raising, because mine sail pretty close to the wind, and have so far remained intact.

I hope he does not accuse the mods of being IS sleepers.

My agenda on this thread is simple, I mimic a man I don't believe in. 'Do unto thy neighbour' or to say it simply. 'Be nice'.

This of course, does not apply when dealing with proven terrorists, or fools online.

Hmmmm, Mr.Angry.. ......I am not talking about you an "immigrant" in Africa.

We are all immigants, the world is always in flux, always was, always will be, what is irritating is blokes like you still have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the first world with the rest of us.

Why wallow in the benighted prejudice of the new arrivals? Teach them the way to live, don't reinforce their prejudices and superstitions with your own. Which really makes your entire 'immigrant' debate look pretty dumb.

Posting from Thailand by any chance? No doubt the profound irony of that scenario is lost on you as well. I wonder how you'll feel if one of your kids heads is kicked -repeatedly- in at school here for being, 'different'?

Liberal fallacy #165

What can happen is to let time dilute the influence of Islam on the population.

That may be true in the very long term but in the meantime you may get the Khalifate..then all bets are off.

Will be true, because it is aways that way. Romans and their Gods, once thought unstoppable are dust. and no you won't get a Caliphate they are military lightweights.

What are you some quavering old lady? We will obliterate them. You ought to simply be nicer to your immigrant neighbours, they are less likely to want to slit your throat, and more likely 'assimilate' then, stands to reason dunnit?

Liberal fallacy #39

They never bothered us anyway, until the blundering CIA pissed them off beyond all comprehension

You ignore the history of Islam.....Vienna, Tours, Constantinople...

Wheneve they left us alone it was a combination of lack of leaders/population/technology

All these are present today.

Islam is a triumphalist religion...no rest till the world turns muslim one way or another.

So was Christianity and the various Empires that 'claimed' it including incredibly, the Third Riech "Gott Mit Uns" all swept away. They make the half-baked sieges you mention look like the temporary annoyances they were.

Liberal fallacy #25

They will never convince us to become muslims

They don't have to ,...they will just outbreed you.

It's happening already

Do us a favour, use your vivid imagination to write for Disney Channel, will you? No adult is gonna believe this, not even your fans, vinnie. BTW i never wrote that one, so your credibility and what little respect i had for you is pretty much trashed.

Liberal truth #25

When your pet projects end-up belly up, quietly tip-toe away and find another 'cause'.

Yes ..I am referring to the mess Mugarbage has made of Rhodesia and S. Africa is following suit.

I bet you wouldn't go to live there now, would you?

How is the weather in the ivory tower btw?

So now Right Wing Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa are 'liberal causes that went belly up?' If by that you mean that liberals foxed it up, wrong again. Native corruption and incompetence did. What I said was you, right wing boy, were one of the yammering dolittles on the sidelines, when we all had a chance to get a better result for black and white, which just might have changed britain today in a way more to your liking. My point is, you can't turn back the clock, so live with it, I learned to, you will have to too, like it or not, and you don't... and won't, unless you change the way you think, and get happy, or get out. And if you get out, what is the problem? I had to, no one cried for me, Argentina.

No, I wouldn't go live there now, I'm not saying the UK is ideal now either, I'm saying you are going to have to get along with each other, or the consequences will be a lot worse than Iraq. It is YOUR country, not theirs, so quit whining and act. But act humanely, don't be like your enemies.

Presumably if you're in Thailand with a local lass on hand, you left the UK for similar reasons. It's just I'm less of a hypocrite, and more of a realist than you. And i gave it my best shot, or two, or three, and no regrets on that score either, regardless of my politics now. As Smith said at an Oxford speech later in life, "They were terrorists, and the more we killed, the happier we were..." yes sir!

The Ivory Tower view is so much better than the one you have of your sphincter muscle array.

@7by7, you can trot out all the FACTS you want, these guys wallow in fear, and revel in ignorance, it is the new Confederacy, a Confederacy of Dunces.

Flummoxed by reason, and even more terrified of wrestling with a new way of thinking about what we at least all agree are significant problems, they resort to sidestepping or cherry-picking, ignoring OUR own murky cultural sectarian terrorism that embraces (if that is the right word) the holy Roman Empire, Crusades, Inquisition, right up to the 'The Troubles' across the pond.

When you point out the senselessness of generalising and how it lets these conflicts drag on for generations, they call you an 'apologist' or a 'liberal' as if that rhymes with 'mary poppins'.

I was once a right little right wing boot boy. And I've got the paperwork to prove it. then I decided not to be my daddys ventriloquist dummy my whole life, and look at the arguments on both sides.

Humanity, and Liberalism or in my case 'Libertarianism' won.

If I had to, I would take up arms with these guys to fight the jihadists, but I wouldn't turn my back on them either. Best they be disarmed immediately after, and assigned to community service in perpetuity. Shouldn't be a problem, they have a propensity to follow orders without question!

Good luck with converting them to intelligent cogitation. They won't budge unless they ever decide to wonder where their 'news' comes from who is feeding it to them and why... instead of surfing the Daily Fail site and watching Fux channels with mind disengaged, all fat, dumb, and ruffled.

YES!!! Over the past several years in England the militants etc. have hidden behind the protection of the governments "politically correct" agenda. "Do not say anything to offend them", we are multicultural, why is it though that in their country there is no such thing as multicultural? well, it is too late, they have taken over I am sad to say.

p.s. It is a well known fact that by the year 2021 their will be enough muslims in the uk to vote in an islamic government....

Current Muslim population of all ages in the UK is around 5%, so how will their be sufficient numbers of eligable Muslim voters by 2021 to vote in an 'Islamic government'.

It has been estimated Muslims in the UK will grow to approx 10% of the population by 2050.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will-britain-have-a-muslim-majority-by-2050/13690

Mohammed is now the most common christian name in Britain.

That is hilarious Mohammed a 'Christian' name! Where did you steal that gag from?

What does any of that have to do with British jihadis fighting with the ISIS terrorists? Radical Islamic apologists are always trying to change the subject - distract and deceive.

What does alarmist crap about a Muslim Westminster parliament dreamed up in some neo-nazi squat have to do with it either? They could no more get into power than the NF. The establishment would be having none of it for a start. You are thicker than they are if you think spreading alarm among your own side, with utter rubbish like that, is any way to wage psych warfare. You completely missed the point, god save England, from her own idiots.

Some of us older folk have seen our "green and pleasant land" go to the wall. Towns taken over by immigrants to a point that is worrying and a disaster for the UK natives.

You sound as if stuff will never happen, they all pooh poohed Enoch Powell many years back, but he was right, absolutely right..Green/Liberal do gooders have a lot to answer for when the shit really hits the fan, and it will.

Yeah? well here's a shock for you, I am UK born, grew up in Rhodesia, which you fine upstanding young rightwing white boys let the 'liberals' give away to Mugabe without lifing a finger. Ditto all the jewels, Hong Kong being the latest, and fought a punishing war, on behalf of the bloody worthless semi-frozen Falklands! I fought for Smith (the noblest Right-winger ever, and a Battle of Britain hero) and you thanked us with Mugabe! So on the one hand, i've mellowed my stance, but on the other, why should i shed a tear for your predicament when you stood by when we needed you in 1980? Just a wee thought...

Besides, you can't turn back the clock, you have no choice but to be pragmatic, like we did. You may not like the 'brown hand on your green land', but trust me, it's amazing how you adapt when you have to, because your motherland sold you down the swanee...

I have said before we should feed IS corpses to pigs, so that they become literal pigshit, the mother of all insults. What have we got to lose?

But, i will not condone moderate people being vilified, for being 'different'. You guys want to buck up and show some backbone, you sound like a pack of scared old ladies!

Fear leads to hate, you are scared.

If hordes of '<deleted>' are terrorising your village green in your old age, maybe for the want of a little human kindness when you were at school, and their parents had to go through hell at the hands of you and your mates, might have something to do with it? Could it be rhyming returns for failing to be a more nobler white knight when you had the chance?

YES!!! Over the past several years in England the militants etc. have hidden behind the protection of the governments "politically correct" agenda. "Do not say anything to offend them", we are multicultural, why is it though that in their country there is no such thing as multicultural? well, it is too late, they have taken over I am sad to say.

p.s. It is a well known fact that by the year 2021 their will be enough muslims in the uk to vote in an islamic government....

and that is what is going to happen in the not too distant future, I sure pity any young folk growing up in the UK today.

I am no friend of these scum.

But this comment is just utter total and complete bullshit.

You can't turn back the clock, and absent someone breaking the law of the land, you cannot retain your humanity and suggest a mass internment and or deportation.

Their countries are not multicultural, but you hold that up as a good thing, Saying, we should be like them? Are you completely out of your mind? Look at them! They even hate each other! Is that how you want the UK to be? A cesspit of hate? A war zone in you street Sandbags and body searches in Tesco and the pub?

Don't say it's all down to them, cos it is crap. Plenty skins would love to get the ovens fired up, I for one would happily shoot anyone who wanted to take us into a holocaust scenario, whether he was Muslim or British.

The backlash would really hit home then, you can be sure of that. What can happen is to let time dilute the influence of Islam on the population. It will die out like Christianity has. And at one time, that was as bad as IS (inquisition anyone?) Putting the bovver boot in will only harden the moderates and prolong the struggle and strengthen their nutters. Any thinking person can see that. Civilization always prevails, maybe not in our lifetimes, but it will overcome barbarism, so don't be barbaric.

That does not mean be a doormat, IS need to be eliminated, but not the entire Islamic world with it. They never bothered us anyway, until the blundering CIA pissed them off beyond all comprehension, but everyone forgets we reaped the whirlwind in our lust for oil.

As to your other ridiculous assertion, IF every other non-muslim stayed at home on voting day, and IF there were enough Muslim MP's to form a party (they can't even agree amongst themselves in Iraq!) AND THEN form a majority in the house, then yes, and I hear a squadron of pigs warming up at Biggin Hill as we speak.

You guys just look like fools when you write alarmist tosh like this. It spreads unnecessary fear among people with even less sense than you -and a scared idiot is a real friendly-fire hazard! And thus aids your enemy.

Get a bloody grip man!

Liberal fallacy #165

What can happen is to let time dilute the influence of Islam on the population.

That may be true in the very long term but in the meantime you may get the Khalifate..then all bets are off.

Liberal fallacy #39

They never bothered us anyway, until the blundering CIA pissed them off beyond all comprehension

You ignore the history of Islam.....Vienna, Tours, Constantinople...

Wheneve they left us alone it was a combination of lack of leaders/population/technology

All these are present today.

Islam is a triumphalist religion...no rest till the world turns muslim one way or another.

Liberal fallacy #25

They will never convince us to become muslims

They don't have to ,...they will just outbreed you.

It's happening already

Liberal reality #1 -we only need one. Liberals will always prevail, Instituional slavery, gone. Criminalisation of Homosexuality, gone, Womens rights, upheld, Human rights upheld -including yours matey, in spite of your best effort at behaving more like the animals you profess to hate. Death penalty, gone. Yeah, hang 'em all! A great idea, until they hang your brother through false evidence, D'oh! Stupid drug laws, we're working on it. Stupid prostitution laws, ditto (the internet will sort that out anyway) Same sex mariage, unstoppable, Dumb religions from the middle east, two of them are practically irrelevant to anyone with a brain stem, which kind of makes the eventual emasculation

of the third an historic certainty. Stupidity that passes for nationalism, usually ends in tears (Communism, Nazisim, or their dilutions) alas, idiots will breed, just like radical muslims... maybe we Liberals should lockdown all you nutters from both sides in Saudi and have at it....

Am I the only one who doesn't understand this post? Stockholm syndrome? Who are the captives? Did he mean captors, that is the usual way of Stockholm syndrome, captives falling for captors. Of course we still don't know who is who. Cowardly and unmanly, who is that? Sounds like some guy at a keyboard afraid to say what he means.

Indeed, ramrod711, what is he on, or going on about?

Stockholm Syndrome has nothing to do with this case, that takes days or weeks to develop. It does not necessarily involve a 'crush' type attachment as exhibited by female captives toward male captors, just a mindset where one begins to identify and/or sympathise with ones captors, as may have been the case in the recent IS captives videoed statements. Poor blighters, knowing what their loony captors are like, their terror must drag on almost endlessly, you could not blame them falling into the syndrome, if only to try find some mental relief. Sorry about drifting... back to the island.

Not quite on topic, or maybe you could say a 'sister' post. If you have ever had to deal with the Chinese Government you may have come away almost traumatised!

I recently had cause to visit the middle kingdom, and went through the visa process here in CNX.

I was absolutely floored by the serene order, cleanliness (the place sparkles, it smells like a clinic, and there always seems to be someone mopping a surface whenever I visit!) great aircon, and above all, the politeness of the staff.

When I collected my visa they even wished me a smiling 'Enjoy your visit to China!' Wow!

Security is also a dignified process, (unlike leaving China itself, absolutely felt as if I was 'escaping' China, so often did they scrutinise my passport at the airport) they pulled my bag apart too, just like at Heathrow. I do get grumpy with airport security, I remain outwardly passive, but silently seethe inside, it's just all a big show of BS and bluster, and a pain in the arse! If they were really serious about our safety, they'd be much more professional and precise, like the Israelis.

BTW if you are 'farangs' you don't need to show 'proof of funds', to get a Chinese visa, the Thais do, AND they pay more than we for the visa, but not as much as the Americans, who are fleeced! Must be a tit-for-tat thing.

Konini,

Surely it would be cheaper to apply in your own right once you do a bit of account juggling overseas?

Are you fully au fait with the timing of the money in your Thai account?

There is an excellent thread about it in another forum here http://www.expatforum.com/expats/basement-lounge/185161-retirement-visa.html

They seem to know what they are talking about there epecially ms. 'tod-daniels'. Ironic, as this is supposedly thai-visa dot com, yet I see a lot of waffle about all sorts of rubbish (present company excepted!) and very lttle visa talk.

^^^^^^ N/J ...as usual wrong again.....seeing its around midnite, when u have posted,guess tiredness has crept in ,long day on the board u know

Makes no difference what you do or have. You must be able to prove 800,000 baht in the bank or guaranteed income of 65,000 baht a month. Or a combination of the two. They will need to see a guarantee of the money coming in. Not a past record.

ned, been through the same process as u are about to undertake, my super agent due to her dilengience and expertise in visa matters at the ????dept

managed to secure my ret visa with out any funds in my bangkok bank a/c whats so ever, and fully legal and accepted at the ?????? dept

for personal reasons i cannot post the loopholes if one likes to call them that ,but again all legal and above board

cobber my super agent(who is a thai/aussie ) is located in the nimminhedin area,and for a fee of around 5000 baht approx,she absoulately takes great care of you,and most importantly she expertly dots the eyes and crosses the tees for you, if you feel u need her service ,just p.m. me,and i will happily supply them to u...,again good luck cobber

a very nice morning to all

Surely you mean THB 50,000 ?

THB 5000 seems a little too good to be true for any agent, much less one with a with a Nimmanhaemin address.

No, 5,000 baht would be right. Earlier this week my husband went to another agent who gets a lot of mentions here, and they wanted 6,000 or 7,000 (I honestly forget) for converting his tourist visa to a Non-immigrant, the same amount again for applying for retirement extension, and then the same again for me getting a non-o as his dependant (I divert any income for myself into a trust fund which goes directly into super before it gets to me, so on paper I'm just short of the required income to apply in my own right). But, but, but I have to go to another country to apply for my non-o as his dependant. I do the travel, I do the worrk, I fill in the form, I pay for it. And they want to charge me for that? And they want to charge separately for converting his tourist visa to a non-o so he can apply for a retirement extension? Sorry, but no thanks. I know what is required, I know how to fill in a form, and although Chiang Mai immigration is a bit of a mad house, Chiang Rai immigration isn't, nor are most of the other offices around the country. We often go away for a couple of days here and there, we'll just make sure the next trip away is to a place with an immigration office (unless you have to apply in the province you are located in. If we have to go to Laos anyway to get me a non-o, we could maybe pick up his retirement stamp en-route, which would keep our dates nice and close. Maybe I'm being a bit cheap, but 3 separate charges, basically for filling in forms? And one set of forms I have to lodge myself anyway.

Thanks for the reassurance! It is rare to find someone like this, my local girlfriend, who is in the import/export and thai furniture and decor businesses, and knows a few people who get things done, was a little skeptical, saying a previous US boyfriend of hers shelled out quite a bit to get his non-o 'arranged'.

The less said, then, the better!

I did all the 'conversions' to non-o and then retirement extension of stay myself, with really a minimum of fuss, apart from the dreary CNX Immigration-go-round. I am looking to get things organised next May, without having to lodge THB 800,000 if at all possible.

Also, I arrived here on my UK passport, as my Aussie one was renewed in Lisbon, and they messed it up, so I had to have it sent on after me, only to find they had let it get soaked while delivering it to my Portuguese adress, in the floods there, possibly ruining the chip, the water certainly messed up the ID page! Then the buck-passing began! The embassy said that because my trusted recipient 'signed' for the package, the damage was not down to them, and anyway, they should have complained to the Portuguese Post Office (yeah that would have got us a right old result, I don't think!) And besides, the reipient was loath to open it without my permission, therefore could not know the state of the contents, although the evvelope outside had water damage, it was dry on arrival (and very late), the water however had throroughly soaked inside the plastic cover they send them in.

All of this means I have a UK passport with all my Thai ink in it, and Aussie income sources, a bit of a conundrum if they start asking questions down at the black hole of Calcutta, sorry, Immigration office. hence my wanting to figure out options other than the 'usual'. I also want to get the Aussie document fixed at Canberras expense anyway, their man in Lisbon messed up, not me.

Konini,

I sympathise with your frustration. What i want to pay for is ONLY for things i can't get done on my own...

Officialdom here treat investor/retitrees with a contempt that beggars belief. Surely now the visa-run brigade have been sent packing all this ridiculous 90 day reporting nonsense can be scrapped? Why you have to go on a magical mystyr tour as well, is barmy!

Has it not ocurred to anyone in power that the sheer cost of annual visa admin must be way more than they charge?

If someone was actually thinking in high places, they would issue a five year extension at 5x the annual cost and cut processing costs to once every five years, thus needing less officers on the payroll. Everybody wins, especially HM Thailands revenue dept! I can dream.

Also a little more computerisation would not go astray, all this photcopying and form filling, its madness. And why the need for a photo when they electronically photograph you again at the airport, office, etc etc?

Still, their system is as good as it can be at CNX with what they have to work with, it can't be easy...

You say that Chaing Rai is better, but is it OK to be 'processed' outside ones residential province? I don't know, probably not, or many more would?

I'd drive up there and even overnight, just to not have to sit in that horrible blue room ever again!

I just found this in an email, his signature file so it can't be a problem

Mike Walther

Australian Hon. Consul - Chiang Mai

Jinda Charoen Konsong

236 Chiangmai Doi Saket Rd (Highway 118)

Amphur Sansai

Chiangmai 50210

Phone: 08 1837-7750

Fax: 053-492-426

As I said, he really is a lovely man, devotes mornings to consular work and doesn't charge a single cent, never has done. One of the few good ones left.

As for the money, some may envy our position, but they certainly didn't envy us when we were both working a minimum 60 hours a week without holidays for the first 14 years, driving around in ;old bangers which my husband struggled to keep on the roads and not spending a cent we didn't have to; we left England in 1987 with GBP 1,200 to our names, and with no children (by choice) retired 7 years ago last week at the age of 43. I know it's not going to be the end of the world if we lose the 30K - and chances of that happening are very low - but we worked bloody hard for that money and would hate to see it go, particularly as we're very risk adverse, and getting an income statement once a year isn't such a mess about for us. [snip]

Our actual income flow isn't a problem, we pretty much live on renal income without touching anything else, and I keep about $50k in cash in an easily accessible account for airfares, insurances, spending money and emergencies, so the actual cash flow or having to make a budget isn't a problem, I was just concerned about convincing a Thai official who doesn't understand such things that you have to look at the annual figure not the monthly one, and the annual figures for the last 10 years are hardly like to change. I suppose I could start making a regular monthly payment to another bank, either here or in Aus, that might be the best thing to do actually, thanks for the suggestion.

And don't forget, it's coming up to the last week in September. Is there anywhere to go and watch the AFL grand final this year? Most of the Aussie bars seem to have shut down over the years. I know there's one on Loi Kroh road, but unlike the English obsession, I've always seen Aussie Rules as more of a family game, and would imagine there'll be plenty of expats wanting to sit somewhere pleasant with their wives and kids

Hi Konini,

Thanks for the detailed reply,which I have snipped for ease of those following...

I would not suggest everything into gold, and certainly, as you say, it is a non-income generating investment, in fact, it costs a modest amout to hold it securely. I see it as the ultimate in 'life insurance' against the world going totally pear-shaped. Again, I'm not someone who stockpiles beans n' ammo, but you have to look askance at the mess the so called free world are making of dealing with everything from high finance, to terrorism, to drug wars, to pandemics... Oh, and the tide will be coming in to Bondi in a way the will make the speedo-sporting climate-change denying PM glad he learned to swim, possibly sooner than anyone would wish, but we just keep on doing the stuff that makes the planet lash back at us!

If things get really bad, not many blue chips will have much to show for it. They are all based on the first world functioning at 'first world' levels. Also, don't rule out CEO negligence, they don't have your interests at heart at the best of times! (Babcock, Leighton, Holden, Qantas, to name a few darlings gone bad). I truly hope I'm wrong, but the unthinkable has happened too many times in recent history, to remain complacent. I was crucified three times in the markets, coming back for more, before I pulled the pin for good. Granted, I was a 'speculator', but I would have been better off down the RSL, feeding pokies!

So far, luckily, with global financial disasters, they have been able to contain them (not fix them) the straws are piling on the camels back... and how much more money can they print before it all just implodes? So gold.

Those who swear by property come what may, seem to forget Detriot and China's 'ghost cities'. While Sydney is not Detriot (yet) there's not much rent coming in if your city is nuked, or tsunamied, or quaked, or plagued, or whatever. It does happen, it can happen. I know this is all a little left-field, but that's exactly what I'm expecting... I have lost faith in our leaders and institutions, and wars and disasters are piling up everywhere, I don't even watch the news anymore, if it's big enough, I'll hear about it! And I'm hearing too mutt!

On to happeir thoughts, I'm not a sports fan in general, but another suggestion I can offer is to find a 'Clubhouse' that is either part of a golf course, or gated community, and see if they can accommodate you with a flatscreen 'Australia Network' access, and some nibbles for the game.

There is a Dutch guy i know who runs a nice little establishment out of the clubhouse of a Gated community up around HangDong called 'Home-In-Park'. As my girl drives me there, I can't supply more details, but his name is 'Ben' and his wife is 'Noi' her number is: 089 634 4520 (ask for Ben) He does reasonable western food himself, and they have a Thai cook as well. There is a medium flatscreen, and a pool for the kids. Decent bar selection, ice-cream freezer, etc. its a big open thatched roof place, and really quite pleasant, only frequented by residents and the odd interloper like me, (you'll need to get a chit at the security gate on entry and exit) make sure Ben stamps it to aviod the fee. it is a bit of a way out if you don't live nearby. But i hope it helps if you can't find closer...

Failing that theres' 'The game' a brandnew sports bar, also in hang Dong, at 'Kad Farang' (near Rimping HangDong). I have never been in, but see from the road that it's all older expat types, not young yobby tourists.

Read and search the forum, answered many times. As a member with over a thousand posts, you should not need a newbie like me to tell you the proper etiquette here.

There are other sites that also cover this in detail, Google them.

In defense of the OP, this is one of the most difficult to search forums I have ever encountered. What's wrong with just letting somebody who knows provide a simple answer or a link? Some of us like to help each other.

Nail on the head.

People who are here for sport, purely to wind others up with use of insults and slurs should be banned. What's wrong with answering a simple question so a poster avoids having to trawl though thousands of posts.

For those of us who live in the so called Land of Smiles it's hard enough as it is dealing with local officialdom, let alone the others that we are grouped with behaving in such a manner. As the old saying that goes something along the lines "if you have nothing positive to say then say nothing"

If you don't like a post or thread then ignore it.

SDM

"If you don't like a post or thread then ignore it." Pot, meet kettle.

To everyone else: Don't patronize or chastize me just because you have more posts here, find a better reason.

Having said that, I am bemused that those to whom the post was not even directed, were offended. Must have been a quiet Sunday...

I was remiss in assuming most would be familiar with 'forum leeches', and amazed that a 'senior' forum menber would not have used the simple ettiqute outlined below, (maybe not so) familiar to all:

So let me try again:

"Dear OP, this question has been answered many times, please kindly try a search first, or do let us know if you have in fact done so, and come up with poor results, this will aviod irritating those of us who don't suffer fools gladly.

Not that you are a fool, but the internet is replete with lazy people, many of whom are fools in search of a bigger fool, to do their homework for them.

Valid calls for help are one thing, free labour is another. I trust you get where I am coming from as a business person yourself.

I stand by my suggestion that Google will also quickly provide insightful alternatives to here, where many seem to have wasted as much time wagging their fingers at me, as providing valid answers.

I regret that my answer was so brusque as to offend, because now I have to return and re-word my suggestion in the asinine language of an airline in cabin announcement.

So thank you for your attention, and thank you for using Thai Visa today."

Happy now, 'old-timers'?

Same old same old from Thai visa. Buying a lady dinner is the same as prostitution. All women aspire to trapping a man into marriage and fleecing him.

No wonder people laugh at this place, and you guys couldn't get laid back home.

No, you are blatantly being disingenuous and downright misquoting in the above and you know it.

The remark about dinner is only used often as it serves to show how ridiculous YOUR morality is, not ours, just in a way your sunday-school mind can grasp. Alas, even that over-simplified example of how your morality splits hairs to a ridiculous degree, goes over your closed-minded little noggin.

If you are going to take the moral high ground you had better be BEYOND reproach in your own use of argument.

I'm sure people do laugh at this place (I presume you mean Thailand) but it's not because of the sex industry, which is a model of efficiency in a business sense. The entire nation would do well to adopt it as a benchmark, hell, it couldn't do any worse!

You are the one who sounds like you have not been laid in a very long time, buddy.

Look at all the fanatics of the world, hysterically tearing off heads and wanting it all their way, what is the one other glaring issue they have? They hate and fear the power of human sexuality, particularly as expressed through the female channel. They are miserable frothy-mouthed, murderous fruitcakes, if that is the end-product of sexual suppression, control, modesty, or whatever the hell you pretty it up as, you can keep it.

Your final remark is just childish, but hey, sunday-school in, sunday-school out...

By 'this place', I meant Thai Visa.

If this is the best you can do in your defence, I'll take pity on you. Poor sod, you have enough on your plate as it is, getting over your prejudices and self-loathing...

I've never paid a bar fine, or had anything to do with prostitution in any form.

Not everyone came here for the women.

Good for you. However, what connection does that make to answering the OPs question?

smotherb,

Soibiker is just letting us all know that his lily-white sexual existence makes him a superior being to we untermensch.

Naturally, this qualifies mr supercilious to pass unequivocal judgement, and regale us with his sactimonoius and self-righteous one-liners, and bore us boneless with his profound distaste for pay-to-play, or as he so bravely calls it, prostitution and whores.

Since he keeps us in breathtaking suspense guessing whether he is studying Thai, taking cooking-classes, admiring the temples, passing thru on his troll-bike world tour, or bothering Bhuddists with his version of salvation, while, in case you forgot, not having anything to do with prostitution, 'in any form', mind you, not even a sneaky happy-ending, we may never know...

We can only marvel at his prowess with getting laid for free, presumably, only at 'home', lest he accidentally gets a 'freebie' from a local whore, thus technically blotting his G-rated journal, his skill on a bicycle, his unparallelled knowledge of the murky underbelly of the commercial sex trade, and his ipad of righteous wrath that hath verbally smote us sodomites, catamites, stalactites and vegemites.

I hope he has the generosity of spirit to invite us to his wedding when he finally finds the Thai whore of his dreams.

I'm already married.

Oh that explains why you're a miserable, judgemental, so and so, my condolences.

A poster said that a girl who worked in a bar would continue that behaviour when she left the bar and married i.e. sleeping with other men whilst the husband is at work. To me that suggests that bar girls are in it for the sex only. My experience here (7 years f/t) is that Thais will seperate work from the personal in a way westerners cannot comprehend. For instance a tourist who barfines a girl then moves on to the next one will be called a butterfly and the girl will be jealous or put out that he didn't come back to her. Yet she does not consider herself in the same way because she is working.That is the seperation.

So when she leaves the bar she leaves the work aspect of sex behind and is probably glad not to have to satisfy other men. So I see no reason that she could not be a loving wife and mother. In fact, given her history she could be even better as she knows what she will have to do if her marriage fails.

I know this is not true of all bargirls and I do realise some are just money grabbers and party animals. But remember the majority would give up the bar in a heartbeat for security and love. Having a boyfriend or husband brings status and happiness in a society of people who don't like to be alone for anything.

Yes, this is certainly true in my experience, Sigurris.

What ill repute are you referring to OP?

These girls are making a way of living and most of the time they do it out of necessity for a better life for their families and kids and not because they like to go to bed with any Tom Dick and Harry.

But they are humans as you and me and it is proven that they can be much better wives and mothers than some respectable other women.

I have a lot of people that I know that have been married to these ill repute girls as you put it and have a wonderful life.

These girls are looking for an easy way out and for the better of themselves.

Most of the men I know who married such women are not with them anymore. The thing is, if they are willing to marry one of their clients, they are willing to screw him over too, usually once a house has been built.

The truth and commonality of this, including in some cases the actual murder of the hapless hookers husband by relatives, shoots down a lot of the bleeding heart 'victim' posts written here...

What I don't get, and ain't don't mean to offend anyone, but couples get married, where the guy usually doesn't speak Thai and the girl doesn't usually speak English? So what a the common ground?

Afrikaans?

I would imagine by the time they marry, their past is behind them and is of no consequence.

Nonsense, they (the losers) would not marry a prostitute from their own countries.

And this monumental leap of logic and presumption, Munger, is based on what evidence?

Do you mean they (the losers) could not AFFORD to marry a pro from their own countries?

Prostitutes are (usually) women by gender, and prostitutes by profession.

Which may be bleeding obvious to some, but is clearly lost on many.

One place I used to go to occasionally at Silom (has live boxing matches which is why I went) had plenty of "dancers" and most of them said they did drugs because it kept them awake and made things "easier" for them and kept them in a good mood.

Ronn,

Do I understand this correctly?

You frequented muay thai boxing matches, which happened to have "dancers" in attendance, who happened to start telling you the intimate details of their lives, and who just happened to freely admit to you (a total stranger) that they habitually use drugs?

There are several things about this story which just didn't ring true for me.

First, drug abuse in Thailand carries such stiff penalties, most people I've ever known are super tight-lipped about anything to do with narcotics. It's just really hard for me to believe that any Thai, (much less the girl after girl you're claiming) would speak this openly about such a taboo and peril fraught subject.

Secondly, when I consider that quite a number of the girls who work in bars come from small villages, such frank and candid confessions seems all the more unlikely. From the time a person is knee high, everyone knows the importance of being circumspect, because if you tell one person in the village, soon everyone will know your secret. I'm just left wondering how come everyone is so unusually unguarded and recklessly indiscreet around you.

Finally, I am struggling to come up with what would motive a girl to admit she had a drug habit. It certainly wouldn't make her more attractive in a potential customer's eyes. She might just as well be discussing her gynecological problems or STD history with a customer.

So I have to ask: 'Are you sure that some of the anecdotal evidence you're presenting here hasn't been concocted or exaggerated in order to unfairly bolster the case you are trying to make?'

You don't seem to understand Thai culture that well, in my opinion. I used to go to that bar with a few of my employees to "wind up the week" and the women I spoke with were surprisingly candid about it although it's not something they'd blurt out for other people in the bar to hear. It could be that you have a language barrier to deal with and that would limit your ability to really get to know the girls in these establishments. This is not the case for me as I am fluent in Thai and can read and write the language. And these girls aren't as stupid as you might think. Many, if not most, of them are street smart and they know who they can trust and who they can't. You might be surprised to know that quite a few of these bars are at least partially owned by police and ALL of them are controlled or allowed to operate because of police cooperation so when ecstasy or meth or other drugs are used in an establishment it's because the police allow it so it's not as if the girls are going around terrified that there's going to be a drug raid or anything. Got it?

I'd be careful where you are taking this conversation Ronn...

I've never paid a bar fine, or had anything to do with prostitution in any form.

Not everyone came here for the women.

Good for you. However, what connection does that make to answering the OPs question?

smotherb,

Soibiker is just letting us all know that his lily-white sexual existence makes him a superior being to we untermensch.

Naturally, this qualifies mr supercilious to pass unequivocal judgement, and regale us with his sactimonoius and self-righteous one-liners, and bore us boneless with his profound distaste for pay-to-play, or as he so bravely calls it, prostitution and whores.

Since he keeps us in breathtaking suspense guessing whether he is studying Thai, taking cooking-classes, admiring the temples, passing thru on his troll-bike world tour, or bothering Bhuddists with his version of salvation, while, in case you forgot, not having anything to do with prostitution, 'in any form', mind you, not even a sneaky happy-ending, we may never know...

We can only marvel at his prowess with getting laid for free, presumably, only at 'home', lest he accidentally gets a 'freebie' from a local whore, thus technically blotting his G-rated journal, his skill on a bicycle, his unparallelled knowledge of the murky underbelly of the commercial sex trade, and his ipad of righteous wrath that hath verbally smote us sodomites, catamites, stalactites and vegemites.

I hope he has the generosity of spirit to invite us to his wedding when he finally finds the Thai whore of his dreams.

@TaH

No, most do NOT 'have to do it with no other choice'. Thailand has so much legitimate work, she imports (illegal) labour. It is, granted, in many but not all cases, poorly paid harsh manual labour, but to say there are 'no other choices' is yet another ill thought out argument. Many BKK office and factory worker types even moonlight as hookers, a fact well known to guys who buy their pleasures. Please, if you don't know what you are talking about, stop making assumptions. Is that on-topic enough for you?

Beleive what u like.

If you really believe that most are there voluntarily, I sadly say, keep deluding yourself.

If there were better paying jobs, something akin to child support and the like, there would not be an industry a quarter the size that it is today in Thailand.

Most are in it for the money, not for the love of the game. Its a job some could say, but what clients see on one side versus the squalor, danger and suffering on the other is in vast contrast.

High class hookers selling themselves versus the bamboo hut in a truck stop is hardly comparable is it. And beleive me there are thousands in truck stops for every so called Chula girl wanting a Louis Vuitton handbag.

At the high end it may appear victimless,but you don't have to step to far down the ladder to get into a really seedy dangerous life for these girls.

Hell it's dangerous and dodgy enough at the top of that business.

'Belief' ends with Santa Claus where I'm coming from.

I deal with hard reality. Most are there voluntarily. I speak to them, I observe their body language, I hear who calls them on the phone when they are with me, and a dozen other clues in their enviornments, you don't. Capiche?

Has it ever occurred to you that if the industry (that will never ever go away) was legalized, taxed, policed, and regulated, that the 'victim' issue would dissapear overnight?

Why are the vast majority of well behaved customers blamed for the plight of the victims that your morality and your senseless laws create?

So, what is your point? if you are so bent out of shape, don't argue on here, go rescue 'em. They'll likely kick you in the crotch for your trouble.

Why is it too harsh?

I think it's funny the way some hide behind ridiculous euphemisms like bar girl, naughty nightlife etc as if somehow makes what they're doing more palatable. They're whores, and you're a whoremonger. If you're willing to parade down the street with one, you might as well be honest about it.

One thing we agree on.

They're whores, and I am a whoremonger.

And your precise problem with their, and my, life choices is?

PS: We already know fom your posts you are an unwelcome moralistic bore, busybody, ignoramus, less than honest when it comes to mounting your arguments, and a frustrated hypocrite.

The trouble with whoremongers is that they think they can bring them back to a building where decent families live and have normal lives. They are oblivious to moral status of others , you can't live in a bubble . There has been problems in our condo where a guy works fly in fly out, let's his hooker stay there when he is not there and of course she acts accordingly. It isn't a pleasant experience, the Thais complain and hope I tell the farang..very very nice guy. I don't want my daughter confronted with this crap behaviour.So please don't go on about morals.

Whoremongers in general think in a very narrow view of Thai women and Thai society .

So your life choice can affect others!

The trouble with NIMBYS is they take the bad behaviour of someones whore (I'm guessing this was a one-off incident and you are exaggerating for effect) and then blame the entire whoremonger population, who as you well know, usually go out of their way to be discreet for reasons obvious to all.

Live in abubble? Oh come on! You are upset precisely because your family-friendly bubble is burst, albeit fleetingly.

And do please enlighten me as to what a hooker does that is so offensive to your sensibilities, when she 'acts accordingly'? Did she put out the fairy lights and barstool and start yelling Wel-caaam!?

Lets assume (since you are too much of a milk-sop to come out with it) she wears heels and minis in front of your kid and that's embarrassing for you because YOU are all messed up about sex, but the kid don't even see her, because they are not sexually aware yet. I don't see a problem here, it's in your head, buddy.

How about you grow a pair and confront the miscreants instead of attacking me Pilgrim?

What would you know about how I, or any other monger thinks about (non sex-working) Thai women and society?

For your information, the vast majority of whores in Thailand are busy servicing Thai men, so yet again, we hear from a poster who has no idea about Thai society crapping on like a fool. We white mongers are not all beer-swilling louts on a tourist visa, mate. And as usual, the big ignorant closed-minded generlization brush comes out, to damn us all. Everyones life choices can affect others, your cooking odors could diminish my enjoyment of the cool evening air. Driving a car while drunk being an exaple with far greater consequences than having your moral feathers ruffled. I don't like the way you and your kind think you have some devine right to go about dictating how I should live my life behind closed doors, so if sometimes some whoremonger and his whore have the temerity to blight your vision by using the same sidewalk as you, you're just going to have to man (or woman) up and cope with it. :-)

@TaH

No, most do NOT 'have to do it with no other choice'. Thailand has so much legitimate work, she imports (illegal) labour. It is, granted, in many but not all cases, poorly paid harsh manual labour, but to say there are 'no other choices' is yet another ill thought out argument. Many BKK office and factory worker types even moonlight as hookers, a fact well known to guys who buy their pleasures. Please, if you don't know what you are talking about, stop making assumptions. Is that on-topic enough for you?