Arkady

2 hours ago, david143 said:

https://ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/documents/140D045N0000000000300.pdf
another 67 thai renounce Thai Nationality
15/June/2023

No. 50 seems not too smart to give up his Thai nationality to become an American. 

2 hours ago, khongaeng said:

Funny story.  My European friend who got his citizenship the same time as I did was out of town a couple of weeks ago and 3 immigration police show up at his house, asking his wife where he was.  His wife explained to them that he had received his Thai citizenship all the way back in 2021, and that he had gotten his visa cancelled at immigration immediately after getting his blue ID card.  They explained that somehow their team was different from the visa department and that they never received word that my friend had acquired Thai citizenship.  His wife gave them a copy of his ID card and they went happily on their way.

 

I thought it was interesting to find out that even if you go through all the right steps of cancelling your visa, etc. Immigration may still come looking for you.  This is the first time I have heard about something like this happening, which means that in all other cases, Immigration must not be bothered enough to check on people that have "overstayed" their visa.  Apparently they came with their police cars and 4 officers, as if they were ready to haul him away to immigration prison.  Even within Immigration, I guess one department can't be bothered to let the others know about immigration status.  It is a miracle that our applications are able to make it through the process at all to obtain Thai nationality.  

Interesting story. I would speculate that the information about his naturalisation and cancellation of visa was readily available but it never occurred to the goons to check whether he had obtained Thai citizenship, since it is such a rare occurrence. 

It is odd that that there has never been a case like this with those who didn't bother to cancel their visas but the only known case is someone who taken the trouble to cancel his visa.  Seems more worthwhile now to cancel the visa.

23 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

Oh, I thought this name is now mine forever. I wasn't aware that they cancel it if I don't apply for documents under this name... Thanks for the heads-up.

Believe it's a use it or lose situation but, if your choice of surname was sufficiently bizarre, it will probably be still available.

2 hours ago, DrJoy said:

Where ever I have been asked about my Nationality be it in parks, museums etc. I always get the Thai rate with my ID card.

After I show them my ID card no questions asked, no arguments.

 

I am yet to encounter any racial discrimination as you claim.

 

YMMV

You are lucky then.  I have  also had no problems with national parks and other government venues but have encountered the not Thai enough syndrome on a number of occasions.  It has happened at a of couple private sector venues I wanted to take my son too. Of course the government licensing office mentioned above and the BTS and I private club I wanted to join that had dual pricing.

12 hours ago, onthemoon said:

When I applied for citizenship, I was asked to choose a Thai name, first name and surname. Can't you just use this?

You probably could but you would have to check with the district that surname is still available, if you didn't use when you got your ID card.  They explained to me that it is reserved until you get your Thai citizenship and I think 3-6 months after that.  For Brits taking a foreign name now means they have to change their name by deed poll in the UK to the Thai name and renew the Brit passport in that name, two different names are no longer allowed, if you want a Brit passport.  Some people like the idea of a new identity but it never appealed to me.

Postbag Bangkok Post 27.05.23

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

One thing we can do is change our name to a Thai sounding name. I guess this would help, unless a  photo is required. I am thinking of doing this after I get a new UK passport, which will be useful for 10 years.

Sure but you will have to change your name in the UK to the Thai name by deed poll, if you want to renew the British passport after 10 years, as they no longer different names in UK and foreign passport which they check.

Funnily enough in the previous purge against deemed foreign applicants for gun permits after the Chinese gang tried to rob a gunshop in China Town, the criteria of foreigness was a foreign surname. I was actually told by the staff to take a Thai name and I would be approved. But it is more sinister this with the added sniffing out of foreign blood in look krungs.

Some of you may be aware from other threads that I am a shooting sports enthusiast. I was in Wang Burapha, the Bangkok gunshop area in China Town, the other day to go to a repair shop and talked to some gunshop owners I know.  The buzz was that a new head of the Bangkok licensing office has been making it  a lot more difficult to apply for permits since before the election.  One of his new measures is said to be a total ban on new permits for anyone that the new bossman in his enlightened view considers a foreigner.  In addition to actual foreigners that includes naturalised Thais and any born Thai with less than two Thai parents. I suspect this would also apply to someone like my son who was born to two Thai parents but has a foreign surname and a father with a foreign name in his tabien baan which is a tell tale sign of foreign blood.

I know there are many varied opinions about gun ownership rights and I don't want to start a pro and anti gun digression here.  My point is that whatever laws are put in place by parliament should be applied equally to all Thais without discrimination based on race or religion, as mandated by the constitution.  A particularly shocking aspect of this is that gun licensing is administered nationwide by DOPA which also also administers Thai citizenship.  An agent who makes a living from getting gun permits for people in Bangkok confirmed to me that all this was true and that one of her clients who is a look krung was rejected on grounds of foreign blood.  To me this mindset is no different from the Gestapo hunting down people with one sixteenth Jewish blood to be stripped of citizenship and marked down for the death chambers. If DOPA is embarking on this type of course, who knows where it may lead? That this disgusting type of racism emanates from the Interior Ministry is very concerning for the prospects of my son's future life in Thailand. Already he faces unconstitutional discrimination from the military which mandates him to undergo conscription but bans him from being promoted above the rank of private because he has a Thai father who was not Thai from birth (curiously a foreign mother is no problem).

On 5/17/2023 at 11:13 PM, moochai87 said:

This question is not intended to spark a political decision, so please don't.

 

Do you think the recent elections and the current lame duck period, will put everything on hold until the new government is in place - citizenship application wise?

It's probably unlikely that the minister will sign any approvals during the caretaker phase, particularly after being accused of approving the Chinese gambling den owner/ drug dealer's citizenship (even though that one was approved by his predecessor and Anuphong only signed the order to publish it in the RG).  He might not approve any more RG announcements either, assuming there are more still pending.  Note that he signed the list that has just been published in the RG on 6 February but it took over three months to get published.

I don't see any reason why MOI interviews will not be scheduled or why any other part of the process should be put on hold.  A friend was told by an MOI insider that the next interviews will be conducted next month.

49 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

Is there any law/regulation stating that PR holders don’t need to do the 90 days reporting?
 

I received my usual notification from HR that my 90 days reporting is due. Normally they collect my passport, do it online and then return the passport within a couple of days. After telling them that I have recently been granted PR they now say they need to do the 90 days reporting at Chaengwatthana and need my passport, my PR book and my red book for it. I don’t have a problem giving all that to them, I am just surprised because I thought PR holders don’t need to do 90 days reporting anymore. 

Definitely 90 day reporting is only for temporary visa holders, not PRs.  Here is a reference from Trat Immigration that popped up first in my search and I am sure you can find a better one in Thai to show you HR department. https://www.tratimmigration.com/90-day-reporting/#:~:text=Any foreigner who has received,to be considered on time.

For heaven's sake don't give them your docs to do a 90 day report.  At best it will cause confusion and annoyance at Immigration.  At worst it might cause real problems for your PR status, if they succeed in actually doing the 90 day report for you and somehow dump you back into temporary visa status.  You would have thought HR people could do a simple google search themselves but they seem not to be sharpest tools in the shed at most Thai companies.

2 hours ago, Bubbha said:

My Blue PR book is full with a still valid endorsement/re-entry permit that expires on October 4 2023—about 5 months from now.

I have an ailing family member back in my home country and would like to have the ability to travel as quickly as I can.

If I do need to leave on short notice, it’s possible that I may need to be abroad for a while, so I would want new one year stamps prior to departing.

I would like to avoid spending several days getting the White PR book if I need to travel at short notice.

So I would like to request a White PR book now – but not a new endorsement/re-entry permit, given that I still have about 5 months left in the current Blue PR book.

I’m not sure if this would be possible. Does the new White PR book automatically cancel the Blue PR book and the still valid stamps?

Would I be able to get the White PR book and have this ready to go when I need it?

I realize this may be best addressed to the ladies at the PR desk in CW, but I thought I would look for feedback here first.

I think they will make you get a new endorsement for a new white book and cancel the previous one. The only way to find out is to ask them, as this would be an unusual case.  Most people apply for a new white book only when they want a new endorsement. I Bangkok I never got the previous books back.

3 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

Yesterday at 9:30 am I applied for a new TM17 certificate of residence (white book) at Ubon Ratchathani Immigration. Submitted all my documents and photos. I was rung up by Immigration at 1 pm today to say that everything was completed and to come in and collect the new book. I was impressed. Very quick service. I was expecting at least 2-3 days. The new white book on the front cover states it is a Duplicate of Certificate of Residence. 

My experience at Chaeng Wattana and Soi Suan Plu before that was that it always took 3-4 days to get a new white book in Bangkok.  Worth knowing that you need to get this done in advance, if going on a trip.

2 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

Only one police precint in Ubon city. I am in the same police precint. I have a feeling that only the police precint in Ubon city handles PR for the whole Ubon province. My new address is not written in the red book. The police said this is not necessary. I got my new tabien baan within days of moving into my new house. Also the pink ID card. 

Makes sense if there it is only the provincial police HQ in Ubon that can handle PR registrations. There may be other provinces with more foreigners apart from Bangkok that have more than one police station that can handle registrations, e.g. Chonburi, Chiang Mai, Phuket and Prachuab. In Chonburi most of the foreigners reside in Pattaya and in Prachuab most are in Hua HIn.

AFAIK Bangkok has an alien registrations officer in every police precint, although many must have virtually nothing to do. No idea about the surrounding provinces that are effectively extensions of Bangkok and have a lot of foreigners living there but working in Bangkok.

39 minutes ago, Michael Hare said:

Agreed.  "do not know if one is still required to remove oneself from the old tabien baan and take the removal document to the new district office. I think I had to about twenty years ago when I moved, but I'm not sure. The procedure may have changed, too" Yes, one has to still do this. I sold my house in 2014 and moved into a new house on the same road a month later. The old tabien baan stayed with the new owner. It belongs to the house. 

 

There is no need to notify the local police station of your move and new address unless one moves out of the province. I was told this in person yesterday at my local police station.

 

This morning I went to the Immigration office in Ubon Ratchathani to get a new TM 17 certificate of residence booklet. The blue one has finally filled up after 20 years. I left all my documents with them, paid 1,902 baht and they will ring me in 2-3 days time to come in and get the new white book. 

Other provinces may be different but it is definitely necessary report a move to a different police precint in Bangkok.  I was fined a token amount for not doing this late once. You need to change your tabien baan first.

On 3/12/2023 at 10:21 AM, yankee99 said:

I probably used the wrong term when i said you as i meant your company.  I believe VAT is compulsory when the company does over 1.8mb per year. I made a assumption that with a 1.2 mb salary the company should be doing way over that amount

Work permits may be issued to employees of sole proprietorships and partnerships as well as limited companies but I was also under the impression that Labour Ministry required VAT registration to issue a WP. When I wanted to get a WP working for my own company I had to register the company for VAT first, even though its income was below the threshold for VAT registration.  It is very difficult to withdraw from the VAT system once you're in.  If you have zero vatable income, you still have to file zero VAT with the RD every month.  If the business is paying a salary of B1.2 million p.a. to one employee, it is pretty certain that the RD would assume income over B1.8 million and require VAT registration, if they noticed that. If they decide to do a random audit of the business owner's personal/business tax returns, they will definitely spot this.

My company was subjected to a random tax audit which involved 2 separate half days being grilled in the RD.  They wanted to fine us about B250k for various things mainly to do with VAT. Eventually I got it down to 36k because they were wrong about the main issue.  They assumed the company's service income was vatable but I was able to prove it wasn't because the customer was overseas and no VAT is payable on exported services.  But we got fined for mistakes the accountant made which included not filing the monthly zero VAT return.

UK nationality, unlike US nationality, can be renounced and theoretically then recovered at a cost but no idea how straightforward the process would be. The home office delights in keeping Brits and their dependents out of the UK these days.

4 hours ago, ubonr1971 said:

May I ask. you to confirm that if Im married to thai and applying for Citizenship then I dont have to sing at all?? Only conversational thai? What about reading or writing? 

The singing question has already been adequately addressed.

Reading and writing are not currently required by anyone but there are voluntary reading and writing tests which give 3 points for reading only and another 2 points for being able to write as well. Passing Thai language is only required for male or female applicants without Thai spouses applying with PR but male applicants with Thai wives have the option to do any of the tests and sing to boost their points. Generally speaking an intermediate knowledge of spoken Thai and no reading or writing is enough to get you through without a Thai spouse under existing regulations. I think only a small percentage of applications actually take the reading and writing tests.  I did and managed to get a perfect score in Thai language including singing which suggests the standard wasn't very high at all.

But here's the rub for those planning to apply with PR  in a couple of years time and those whose points may be borderline. The law doesn't actually specify the requirements for Thai language.  It just says in Section 10.5 "having knowledge of Thai language as prescribed in the Regulations". The current 1967 regulations are being revised and new ministerial regulations are due to be published this year. One of the things the MOI said needed to be more rigorous in the new regulations was language testing which is planned to be upgraded with assistance from Chulalongkorn University.  It is as yet unknown how rigorous the new testing will be or when it will come into effect. 

35 minutes ago, rsskga said:

It's not required for foreign wives applying through their Thai husbands. I believe all foreign men need to be prepared to sing as part of the application, unless they don't need the points associated with that requirement.

 

If memory serves me correctly, one of the wives who previously applied and was already granted citizenship was asked if she could sing the anthems... not because she was expected to but because the interviewer was simply curious. That's partly why I'm learning them even though I don't technically need to.

I believe you are right that one of the female applicants applying as the wife of a Thai was asked if she could sing the songs - properly a searching question to assess willingness to assimilate, since all Thais should be able to sing the songs. Anyway, it is certainly a good idea to learn them from that perspective, even if you don't have to get them perfect.

You are also right in that male applicants married to Thais also don't need to sing but might need/want to offer to sing at SB but not the MOI to get more points.  Even though the songs are only worth 2 points, that could make all the difference to a borderline candidate. However, SB usually do their utmost to discourage married applicants from singing because they feel it's very difficult for foreigners and find it excruciating having to listen to most of them.  I insisted on singing at SB, despite their efforts to persuade me not to and later found I had to sing at the MOI as my marriage had not be registered long enough to qualify for the exemption. When I was sent up to the director who has an office upstairs at SB he spent about 15 minutes interviewing and chatting. Then he suddenly looked at his watch and apologised that he would not have time to hear me sing as he had to go to a meeting but expressed confidence my singing was good and he would approve it unheard. He obviously had an extreme aversion to listening to foreigners singing the anthems.  Luckily at the MOI all went well and I actually got a round of applause which I thought make it clear that the average standard of singing must have been extremely poor.

Hint: the Royal Anthem requires a rather broad vocal range, so the key is to start it off almost growling in a low enough key that you have enough range left to reach the highest notes without squeaking or having to drop an octave.

3 hours ago, onthemoon said:

You will be asked the meaning? OK, with the National Anthem that's not so difficult, but the Sansern Baramee uses Ratchasap, so that's a lot of vocabulary I'm not familiar with. Thanks for pointing this out.

I wasn't asked the meaning and I don't know how common this question is but I do know two people who were asked the meaning of one of the lines in the song they had just sung. One was actually asked what it meant and what feelings it evoked in her which was a real curved ball. They had already asked her to sing the songs 4 or 5 times because her singing and pronunciation were so poor. So she was virtually a driveling wreck by then and ready to withdraw her application to put an end to the torture. In my interviews there was a Chinese couple applying together who had really lousy Thai and they were also subjected to repeated singings which drove the officials in the room crazy. So best to have the singing down pat and know what the songs mean.

3 hours ago, onthemoon said:

These transcriptions helped me personally to pronounce the words correctly.

Sansoern Pre Barami Lyrics.docx 15.52 kB · 5 downloads Thai National Anthem Current lyrics.docx 46.97 kB · 2 downloads

This is useful because some applicants have been asked the meaning of lines they have just sung in the MOI meeting. So its worth knowing the vocab, some of which is rather obscure and can't be found in Thai-English dictionaries, not even in the Mary Haas dictionary.

If you can read music, it is worth studying the vocal scores.  That helped me a lot in learning the phrasing.

3 hours ago, rsskga said:

I made some YouTube playlists of each of the anthems. I find the official versions hard to learn from because the background instruments and chorus of voices muffles the pronunciation. Would love to collect additional recommendations if anyone has (a) favorite performance(s). Based on the difficulty I had finding soloists singing the National Anthem it seems the Thais have much less of a tradition of performers singing it in public than Americans, for instance, have of singing their anthem.

 

เพลงชาติไทย

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRHNDpJM_kWjQhNCHROJxfk-Hab6as2S8

 

สรรเสริญพระบารมี

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRHNDpJM_kWjHPmYspOjVIbTGIGlQcvxj

 

Good stuff but you are lucky that you will not be asked to sing it. It is only required by applicants not married to Thais applying on the basis of PR.  For those that do have to sing, it is definitely one of the most challenging (and rewarding) aspects of the application.  Also challenging for SB and the interviewers at the MOI, as most applicants are pretty awful singers.

2 hours ago, ubonr1971 said:

Can I ask a question in relation to the list of docs required above?

 

Item 11 says 'copy of proof of company registration for the commercial establishment where one works'

 

My wife and I have a small medical business but we decided to not to have company structure. We operate the business through her personal name and she pays taxes every 6 months. I have a WP.  Do you know if this is going to be an issue when I try and apply next year. Should I go to SB next time Im in bkk and ask them. If they say its mandatory then I suppose we can open a company this year but then its going to state the date of incorporation etc. 

 

If anyone knows about this technicality could you please help me

thanks

I am of the opinion that neither the law, the ministerial regulations nor the guidelines insist you should be employed by a company as long as you have a WP.  However, actual practice might be different and you will need a business registration as per item 11.  I think sole traders can register the business name they trade under with the Revenue Dept in their PNG 91 tax returns and certain types of businesses need to be registered with the district office, such as bars and restaurants.  I don't know if these types of registration count as item 11.  There is also the issue of whether there is any specific change coming up in the new ministerial regulations that are supposed to be announced this year that will also phase SB out from the process altogether.  You will have to ask SB about this.

I suspect that incorporation will be either be necessary or will just make things easier. However, this will not necessary involve waiting for another 3 years.  Most of the scrutiny and documentation is aimed at your current employer but  you are allowed to change jobs and for employment earlier in the 3 year qualifying period they don't need documentation on the employer, just your WP and personal tax receipts.  If you decide to incorporate, it is advisable not to have shares in your own name until you have submitted your application because having shares in your employer means you have to submit the companies audited accounts which is doable but why subject it to unnecessary scrutiny?  Also make sure that there is no gap when getting a new WP under the company but this should be easy to arrange since your missus would your employer in the new and old job.

2 hours ago, rsskga said:

I'm definitely still here!

 

The transfer of the condo that my father-in-law owned to my husband has been completed. We'll be going to visit my in-laws this weekend to collect the paperwork and update our Tabien Baans to Bangkok so that I can file my application with Special Branch.

 

I was a little surprised that I needed to sign some of the documents related to the condo transfer. To be honest, I'm unsure what I signed. I imagine it has something to do with how marital property works in Thailand, but since this was a gift between father and son and I have no investment at stake, I didn't ask too many questions. Perhaps someone here can enlighten me though?

 

What is the recommended way to package all the documents when submitting the application?

 That is a standard spousal consent for purchase of land, house of condo. If the buyer declares he or she is married, the land officer will require spousal consent because property bought after marriage is spousal property not personal property. If the Land Office has a spousal consent signature on purchase, spousal consent will also be required to sell it. This is to try prevent people from taking on purchase (and consequent debt) obligations and from selling spousal property without telling their spouse.  But many people lie to the officer and claim to be unmarried when they buy property.  The Land Office doesn't check the veracity of the statement and the penalty for lying to a government official is not much.

I bought a piece of land from an old lady upcountry once. On the title deed it was specified that it had been transferred to her as an inheritance and spousal consent is not required for inheritances.  So she didn't bother to bring her old man along to sell the land and thought it was nothing to do with him.  The Land Officer told her to bring him along to sign anyway and cautioned me that he could legally make the transfer without the spousal consent but thought exposed me to the risk that the husband could come and dispute the sale later on and try to force a reversal, if the price went up.  So after much discussion a motor bike was despatched to wake up the old boy who was taking a nap.  He appeared looking rather bewildered but signed the form anyway.