Sutty

It is no secret that the Daughters are reared and conditioned from an early age to go and find walking ATM Card. No matter which Nationality, old fat and bald with own daughters back home much older than the new " young model" in Thailand. Looks are irrelevant and so is age, as long as the Finances are there. Soon it is the proverbial Buffalo that is sick, a Pickup Truck needed, then follows a house and further down the lane, a plot of land( little farm) to plant Fruit trees or a new Rice Paddy. The more savvy ones go and sit in Lumpini Park, or go to Art Galleries or English Bookshops and spend their days there until they "Hook" a Farang which would be a better bet, possibly younger than Ancient, and not into boozing in bars.Looks and whether dark skinned also counts in how they are viewed and view themselves. The big majority though end up unfortunately in Patpong ,Pattaya and other seedy bars as bargirls and dancers and we all know what else. Some very nice girls do get jobs and improve themselves and earn their keep honestly and decent and It is very difficult to do so.. They then support the whole family including the lazy Brothers, or rather the Farang ATM does. Meanwhile the "Old Girl" back home has her "Image and Standing" in the village upgraded and struts around like a peacock in her village, especially if her daughter has landed a good Catch. There is more land and houses paid for by Farangs in Isaan villages BUT in the name of these women, than any other Province in Thailand. Some women have several houses in their names as the Farangs that run out of money, sadly departed with an empty ATM Card and were soon replaced and the cycle started all over again. Girls from more traditional or upmarket families will never go this Route. Their families would never permit it and they are too proud of themselves. HISO Ladies, well, THAT is another story. So village life has improved for many many Families in Isaan over the years thanks to the Walking ATMS. Some relationships even miraculously end in marriage with a child or two to SECURE their old age and are quite happy. The Farang must off course "tolerate" the whole family of Inlaws and be generous in doing so. It is ALL about money and how long the money lasts. Have met many of these Women over the years in Travels throughout Thailand and they open up amazingly about this to other Western Women. But extreme Poverty- yes that exists too. They are basically good people but many have been corrupted by Money or lack of it..Not pleasant to see a young Thai Girl being pulled along by a old Farang strutting along like cock of the roost and old enough to be her father( sometimes Grandfather).

I'd guess most westerners living in Thailand annually spend more than that on VAT-liable items so we pay our way tax-wise.

It really is discrimination when we're expected to pay VAT which supports NP maintenance yet not have that financial support recognised when we want to visit.

What does paying taxes have to do with it?

A nation's tourism (just like hotels and airlines and restaurants) is run for the benefit of the country's shareholders, which means Thai citizens. No matter how many nights you stay at the Hilton, or flights you take on Qantas, or meals you eat at Hooters, you're not entitled to the shareholder discount unless you're a shareholder. No matter how much you pay in taxes, you're still not entitled to the shareholder discount enjoyed by Thai citizens.

They're perfectly justified in giving favorable treatment to their citizens. (Also makes perfect business sense) You want the Thai local discount, get a Thai passport. If they still insist on charging you double, then it's unfair discrimination.

On an aside, I can't believe some enterprising group in Thailand doesn't sell some kind of VIP card that entitles foreigners to the Thai price at any and all attractions- public and private.

They have mate its called a yellow house book

I'd guess most westerners living in Thailand annually spend more than that on VAT-liable items so we pay our way tax-wise.

It really is discrimination when we're expected to pay VAT which supports NP maintenance yet not have that financial support recognised when we want to visit.

What does paying taxes have to do with it?

A nation's tourism (just like hotels and airlines and restaurants) is run for the benefit of the country's shareholders, which means Thai citizens. No matter how many nights you stay at the Hilton, or flights you take on Qantas, or meals you eat at Hooters, you're not entitled to the shareholder discount unless you're a shareholder. No matter how much you pay in taxes, you're still not entitled to the shareholder discount enjoyed by Thai citizens.

They're perfectly justified in giving favorable treatment to their citizens. (Also makes perfect business sense) You want the Thai local discount, get a Thai passport. If they still insist on charging you double, then it's unfair discrimination.

On an aside, I can't believe some enterprising group in Thailand doesn't sell some kind of VIP card that entitles foreigners to the Thai price at any and all attractions- public and private.

I'd guess most westerners living in Thailand annually spend more than that on VAT-liable items so we pay our way tax-wise.

It really is discrimination when we're expected to pay VAT which supports NP maintenance yet not have that financial support recognised when we want to visit.

What does paying taxes have to do with it?

A nation's tourism (just like hotels and airlines and restaurants) is run for the benefit of the country's shareholders, which means Thai citizens. No matter how many nights you stay at the Hilton, or flights you take on Qantas, or meals you eat at Hooters, you're not entitled to the shareholder discount unless you're a shareholder. No matter how much you pay in taxes, you're still not entitled to the shareholder discount enjoyed by Thai citizens.

They're perfectly justified in giving favorable treatment to their citizens. (Also makes perfect business sense) You want the Thai local discount, get a Thai passport. If they still insist on charging you double, then it's unfair discrimination.

On an aside, I can't believe some enterprising group in Thailand doesn't sell some kind of VIP card that entitles foreigners to the Thai price at any and all attractions- public and private.

They have mate its called a yellow house book.

And so it begins.

Now expect piss like

She'll be ok with her thai boyfriend

She will go back on the game

And all the rest of the normal thai women hating I've been ripped off so all thai women have to be tarts posts

When the ambient temperature drops below 25, the ski jackets come out

wearing ski jackets = have you scaled Everest? 555555

The real question is, "Have you even been stuck in the North Pole for 11 days, 49 hours, and 43 minutes without socks???"

Why do I ask? I saw a guy putting ice in his beer....

11 days is that all lightweight

Grow up is what I think. Why the in her 1.2 Mil condo!!!!! And her plastic surgeon boyfriend.!!!! Trying to impress are we.

Lostinisaan or KevinB or whatever other call signs you are using on here several I suspect. I thought this may become a great thread however as you insist on trying I emphasis the word TRYING to be little or be down right rude to anyone who tends to disagree with you. Also all these quotes from the internet just proves really how you love to see your own copy/paste work. So I'm out of here.

By the way is KevinB lostinisaan! !!!!!!!

Sutty - have you ever heard about the massacres of: 14th October 1973, 6th October 1976 and 18th May 1992 ??? Ever heard about the Long Marches and the hundreds of people from Isaan that died at those times? Do you think that people walked all the way from Isaan to Bangkok (often being beaten along the way by Police and Army) for nothing? - why not ask a few of your elder neighbours about 30 or 50 years ago. Understanding what happened in the past five decades might really help some of people posting on the "lethargy" noted by them in the Isaan population today and how it arose - a people subjugated and forced to accept their fate. OH maybe have a look at how the people of Isaan were treated during the Vietnam War when their Lao heritage made them suspect Communists.

In case you don't know some half a million people were evicted from there properties with the construction of the large dams in Isaan. Or do you believe that those massive dams (which you can visit) had no one living there before construction.

While you are talking to the old folk in your area - best you hear it from locals not some smart arse like me posting on ThaiVisa - ask them about what happen to the forests in the area they visited as a kid - ask them about how important those natural areas were to the variety they had in their family diet back then. Ask them if they can show you where there used to be sweet water springs when they were kids. Ask your neighbours how much water used to be in the well and when did it start to get brackish.

I can recommend a couple of other excellent books - they are available outside the country and can even be found in some good provincial libraries in UK. "Pulping the South, Industrial Tree Plantations and the World Paper Economy" by Larry Lohmann and Ricardo Carrere published by Zed Books Ltd in 1996. Or a collection of academic papers co-edited by Lohmann - "The Struggle for Land and the Fate of the Forests." By the way Larry spent decades in Thailand in Isaan in the 1980's and actually was forced to leave after mysteriously eco-minded community based activists started to get murdered. The paper industry is big and very powerful - why not Google it and read about it.

Why not jump in you car and travel to what is left of the Huanamput Forest in Burinam - this is a once famous forest of between 8 to 10,000 acres of valuable hardwood before most of it got turned into a Eucalyptus plantain - despite the heroic stand by a group of Buddhist monks (also worth reading about).

Open you eyes as you drive through Isaan how come there are so many BIG Eucalyptus tree considering that they are indigenous to an island called Australia - maybe they flew here on Quantas - met a pretty Isaan girl and decided to stay. Hey Sutty how to you think that almost every bit of "forest" on the top of most hills in your area have got all the same sort of trees planted in straight rows.

Have a chat with some old folk, have a good look and then admit that history happened even in your part of Isaan.

I don't agree with the vast majority of the OP yes they are poor yes they go our to cut sugar for 300 bht a day. But to say incest is rife or HIV is rife is nonsense. All the Thais I know have exellent hygiene and why would they want hot showers!!!! Having had cool showers all there life. You paint a picture which just isn't true.

It was never my intention that everybody agrees with anything what anybody writes, or says.

How can you have excellent hygiene if you only have cold water in winter? I was there. done that, it doesn't work. Even if you have shampoo ( which the most don't have and they use a cheap soap) , you don't get the foam out of your hair when using a small bucket.

The foam then stays in your hair and if it's really cold people do not shower a long time, because the water is too cold. Was there, done that.

I lived in this particular village for 1 + year and since then I'm always there for a few nights, a short visit, a Morlam sing and dance event, or a cremation.

What you might not know is that some ( more and more ) youngsters take guns to such events and cops are most of the time present. Please watch the youngsters how they're starring at the half naked girls on stage. There're always fights and guns often involved.

I've seen some shootings with my own eyes, also in the capital city Sisaket at night. So if you think there's no rape, no guns, no crime, please wake up.

They a sort of know that they'll never score and some of them find a victim in the village after a certain amount of Lhao Kao.

I love my mom and dad in law a lot and they never brushed their teeth. Nor did all the other relatives in the family and all the others ( of course are there exceptions) in the village.Mom just lost three very important teeth, went through terrible pain, but never saw a dentist.

Same goes for all the villages around, of course with some exceptions.

There was no money for it. Her son who wanted to commit suicide needs all her attention and has to be spoon fed every morning. I'm glad that his two sons are almost adults and they seem too understand how to deal with their difficult situation.

I love them as well as they are my own kids. They both drove to Bangkok to make enough money in a factory to pay for their school, one bought a PC I fixed for him a few days ago.

Many don't even have a bicycle. Where the heck do they cut sugar? There's no sugar cane in the whole area. You might only know some wealthy villages and you've got no idea what I'm on about. Beside some chili picking for 3 baht per kilo, there's nothing to make any money.

Again, I do not ask if somebody agrees with me or, not, it's completely irrelevant if people do, or not.

We have friends, a good source is a nurse in the birth section of a big hospital. Do you think that I pulled the rape story out of my ass?

There's enough proof that many kids get raped and therefore also a high pregnancy rate. Cops are usually never involved, they try to solve such a "problem" by wanting the preick to marry the daughter and pay Sinsod.

Your last sentence is scary to me. "Why would they want hot showers?" You can't be that naive, can you? Oh, they don't want to eat some frwesh seafood, because they never had the money for it. Do you get my point how stupid such a statement really is?

Why do you want a hot shower in winter? Oh, I forgot, you have the right to have hot showers and these poor suckers just don't need them.

I actually paint a picture that's too true to be good for me.I wish my points were all a bunch of lies, but I'm afraid they aren't.

Let's not be too negative about it. Morlam kills some pain. P.S. Noi is still single and I guess virgin. Aehh maybe. [/quote

Sorry you are totaly misguided can't be hygienic with only cold water that's got to be the most westerner remark I've ever heard. I personaly have been to places all over the world and many many times have only ever had cold water I kept clean always and Thais are more used to it than me. My son and his mates don't carry guns nor do they stare at half naked women you don't Li e in the real world do you. Some strange half world where only you inhabit and no one else can possibly be right.

So this thread has now changed to a wife thread now then. As usual I guess

Good post - lost in isaan. And thanks who ever moved it from the Isaan site to the main ThaiVisa site.

As anyone who has read the posts will have noticed the normal trolls are out accusing the person posting of exaggeration and / or lies. A sad reflection on the level of understanding of many of the farang who live here with the minds and head stuck up some dark and ill-informed place. Those who don't even bother to understand the history of where they live nor read anything other than the numerous mindless post on expat sites.

Might I suggest the writings of one of Thailand's best authors in English - Pira Canning Sudham. He is unique having lived and studied most of his adult life outside the country - New Zealand, Australia and the UK and to have published all his books in English (so those who get so upset with people writing about Thailand with poor grammer can relax when they read him). His writings have achieved international acclaim and most are available locally in good bookshops (yes doubter they do exist - try Asia Books you'll find them in most the big malls). I specifically recommend - People of Esarn - The Dammed of Thailand - recently up-dated and republished by AsiaShire with another of his smaller books The Kingdom in Conflicts.

He is world famous for his spectacularly well written novels based on life in Isaan - Monsoon Country and The Force of Karma (meaning that some people who are well read outside the country have more of an understanding of what is going on in Thailand than many of those who live here with their blinkers on).

Anyway - his writings stand testament to the systematic abuse and deprivation that the group of provinces in the North East known has Isaan have suffered over the decades - the locals, as mainly speaker of Lao, have actually suffer centuries of neglect by the elite and Hi-So in Bangkok. The area suffers the natural affliction of low rainfall, being a plateau many miles from the Indian Ocean from which the main SE Monsoon arrives dumping most its moisture on the rest on the Kingdom before it gets to Isaan and partially shielded from the NE Monsoon blowing in from the Pacific by the mountains of Vietnam. But it's greatest affliction are its "natural resources" mercilessly plundered by Thai industrialists for raw material and their need for power. First came the salt and phosphate "miners" - under the fragile soils lay massive deposits of low grade salt - extracted by the chemical industrials and in the process they contaminated the land. Massive seepage from the salt mines and discharge of waste water damaged paddy and polluted canals and turned rivers brackish. Using this water added a crust / layer of salt to paddies hundreds of km away drastically lowering yields. Next the giant hydro-electric dams - the Sirindhorn and Moonmouth - many now argue them to be ecological disasters which displaced hundred of thousands of small households under their waters and drastically affected everyone down-stream - fisherman, farmers and communities dependent on the flow of water and the regular flooding of rivers and streams to bring in new nutrients to the alluvial soils along the drainage lines. These EGAT projects supplied cheap electricity to the industries in the South while millions in Isaan still waited to be connected to the grid. Then the timber strippers chewed up hundreds of thousand of rai of complex natural forests dragging out millions of USD in hard woods and after the areas had been damaged enough to be reclassified as "degraded" by Forestry Department - the next set of resource grabbers moved it - replanting the areas with non-indigenous trees like eucalyptus for eventual "harvesting" as wood chip for the paper industry (for a while the wood chip was exported raw to Japanese paper mills). The wood and paper industry further contributed to massive water pollution and the period during which new "forests" re-grew most hilly areas experienced severe erosion - silting local steams and drying up ancient springs that had previously provided fresh water. The re-established mono-species forests were devoid of natural fruit trees, important local dietary components during the "hungry season" and the way in which eucalyptus protects itself from competition by other plants by its roots producing its own growth retardants in the soil - local mushrooms, small scrubs (with edible leaves) and bamboo disappeared completely in some areas.

Welcome to the reality of Isaan today - every measured statistic in Thailand from number of women dying in childbirth to infant mortality to proportion of undernourished children ranks Isaan as the poorest area in the Kingdom. It is estimated that 75% of the prostitutes come from Isaan and maybe readers believe it is because those girls want old farangs to slobber and drool on them - NO it is because of their families POVERTY. It has been convenient for the owners of the establishments that make money off them (ask yourself who they are) to keep Isaan poor to maintain the supply of fresh and equally desperate girls.

Wake up folk and smell the coffee and understand how it is brewed and sold in the country you live in.

Excuse me for saying what the OP said is not the case in my adopted rice farmers village I'm no troll as you insinuate stop trying to tell me and the world what happens in a place I live and see no similarity in your or the OP post thank you

I don't agree with the vast majority of the OP yes they are poor yes they go our to cut sugar for 300 bht a day. But to say incest is rife or HIV is rife is nonsense. All the Thais I know have exellent hygiene and why would they want hot showers!!!! Having had cool showers all there life. You paint a picture which just isn't true.

Max we got to yesterday 15° daytime last night went down to 7° @ 0300 now 10° @ 0800 at Ban Hin Lad (KK). very overcast had a massive rain storm Saturday. Seems they got the forcast right this time

Most Thai people who work for a living pay taxes that financially support the government provided services, like maintainance of parks and other attractions

Most farangs living in Thailand that I know pay no taxes to support the Thai government at all.

Is it really discrimination to be expected to pay for the services you use?

I know many farangs are here to TAKE ADVANTAGE of Thailand and the lower cost of living in Thailannd...but please, be reasonable!

seriously, some farangs have really earned the nick name " Cheap Charlie"!

Id say an awful lot of Thais DONT pay taxes at all and the rich ones can afford to avoid them I doubt any street seller pays any tax

The clue is in the word THAIland. Paying tax or not they are born and bred here we ain't. For the dual pricing to have any affect on average farang you would have to visit a dual pricing event every day. And I'm sure that doesn't happen.

By the way the aticle says he fled to India in Oct not from India

Kate Adie would sell her soul in fact she has on many occasions to get elevated up the greasy pole. Again we will have to agree to disagree about him being abducted why if he was going to apply for a slum here when he returned from Laos !!! If he was already here why not apply then but decide to go across a border then try and return makes no sense what so ever. Which is why I belive one of two things 1. He was never here no facts apart from his wifes say so he was in Thailand. 2. As I belive to be 99% certain he has dissapeared himself and is lying low or trying to get to Europe on a false passport

Are you aware that applying for political refugee status can be a long term proposition, and that many long-term foreigners in Thailand routinely go to Laos for visa stamps?

Regarding getting into Europe on fake passport in the current climate, that would be a true act of desperation.

If he was to apply for asylum as I understand it he would be given leave to stay until the application was processed and either granted or denied he would not have to get any visa stamp. But why even if he had to do as you say go so quickly to get another visa having only been in the country (if indeed he was) for such a short time

As for getting to Europe despite people do desperate things. He or his wife has already said he wanted political asylum in the West

"If he was to apply for asylum as I understand it he would be given leave to stay until the application was processed..."

Really? What makes you think Thailand plays by these rules? What makes you think the junta will play by any rules when its staunchest supporter, China, wants a Chinese citizen disappeared?

"But why even if he had to do as you say go so quickly to get another visa having only been in the country (if indeed he was) for such a short time"

You seem to be privy to information some of us don't have. The article says he left India in October and attempted to travel to Laos on January 10, it doesn't say how long he was in Thailand or how long his visa allowed him to stay.

Yes, it seems he was desperate to get to the west. However there is nothing in the article indicating he was doing anything other than attempting to apply for asylum in the west.

Kate Adie would sell her soul in fact she has on many occasions to get elevated up the greasy pole. Again we will have to agree to disagree about him being abducted why if he was going to apply for a slum here when he returned from Laos !!! If he was already here why not apply then but decide to go across a border then try and return makes no sense what so ever. Which is why I belive one of two things 1. He was never here no facts apart from his wifes say so he was in Thailand. 2. As I belive to be 99% certain he has dissapeared himself and is lying low or trying to get to Europe on a false passport

Are you aware that applying for political refugee status can be a long term proposition, and that many long-term foreigners in Thailand routinely go to Laos for visa stamps?

Regarding getting into Europe on fake passport in the current climate, that would be a true act of desperation.

As for getting to Europe despite people do desperate things. He or his wife has already said he wanted political asylum in the West

Kate Adie would sell her soul in fact she has on many occasions to get elevated up the greasy pole. Again we will have to agree to disagree about him being abducted why if he was going to apply for a slum here when he returned from Laos !!! If he was already here why not apply then but decide to go across a border then try and return makes no sense what so ever. Which is why I belive one of two things 1. He was never here no facts apart from his wifes say so he was in Thailand. 2. As I belive to be 99% certain he has dissapeared himself and is lying low or trying to get to Europe on a false passport

Why is it always brought back to black and white. It's not racism to charge foreigners more than locals. Turkey does it Egypt does it Christ London does it no hang on London just rips everyone off delete that. Malta does it. It's life I'm afraid if you really can't afford it or that incensed by it don't go to where they do it simple really

I'm guessing it's all the euro-trash open boarders crowd bleating and moaning.

You mean as opposed to the USA- mighty mouth were bigger and better than you. Trailer Trash who always bleat and moan ????

And what does the Thai government say about all this? Evidently nothing. What would they say if American or European government did the same?

Did what? There is no evidence he was abducted. It's just the last place he was seen.. Who was he seen by?

From the full article:

"Shi said Thai police refused to accept her report of her husbands disappearance, asking her to contact the Chinese embassy."

You don't find that a little suspicious?

I actually find it more suspicious that an anti communist Chinese agitator would choose to exit Thailand in Laos a communist country with close ties to China!

Why would a person fleeing Chinese goons who was concerned the Thai government might cooperate with China try to leave the country through a laxly run border crossing into a backwards third world country?

I don't know, maybe he thought he was more likely to be picked up if he remained on Thailand or tried to leave using an international airport.

he came to Thailand from India and then was heading closer to China via a communist country with strong ties to China. Your rational makes absolutely no sense! I know you like slagging off Thailand and this government but in this instance there is NO evidence that he went "missing" in Thailand. Actually it's much more likely he was picked up at the Laos border.

I am no expert on fleeing a country without being noticed, are you? Perhaps this missing Chinese rights activist is a novice as well.

From my experience with border crossings the land borders with poor nations tend to be the most laxly operated and the best bet for not being flagged in some computer. If I thought Chinese spooks were after me and the Thai government was assisting them I'd head for a land border, as this man did. I would definitely avoid international airports.

Did you read the full article? It states:

"Li travelled this year to Thailand, a long-time hub for Chinese fugitives trying to make it to the west, where he boarded a train to the north-eastern border to enter Laos. His wife has since been unable to reach him.
He got on a train from Bangkok to Nong Khai at 8.36pm on 10 January. We had been in touch those days. The next day, around 7.40am, we lost contact, Shi said.
Li Xin has been missing for 10 days after leaving Thailand for Laos with the hope of returning to Thailand to apply for political asylum, said his wife, Shi Sanmei."

Perhaps he had not learned of recent disappearances of Chinese from Thailand. He is from a country as enthusiastic about censorship as Thailand, after all. It appears he was going to Laos for visa reasons in order to extend his stay in Thailand while attempting to apply for political asylum in the west.

You and a few others seem desperate to find a reason to believe the junta is not assisting China in violations of law and human rights. You're not convincing too many people. This case looks as suspicious as the Hong Kong bookseller who disappeared from Thailand and appeared days later on Chinese television confessing to past crimes. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/887390-hong-kong-bookseller-who-disappeared-from-thailand-held-in-china/?p=10321914&hl=%2Bchinese+%2Bbook+%2Bmissing

There has been massive layoffs in the E&P industry in Thailand. I'm one them too.

It's a shame there have been so many lay off and I hope you find a new position soon. However the writing has been on the wall for a long time now. The demise of the oil drilling industry is on a way way spiral as alternative fuels will now have a real chance to establish themselves.

Maybe keep a copy of this post somewhere for yourself, and when the price of oil hits USD 100 + a barrel in the future, go back and read what you wrote...once the frackers in the US are out of business, the Saudis will " close the taps " forcing the price up, alternatively the Saudis will bankrupt themselves, and the price will go up

For short term, if the Saudis and iranians really start having a go at each other or some other war in the middle east...prices will go up

Current oil price is not driven by economics per se, but by polital agenda

I don't class facing as an alternative fuel source. I have no dought that the price of a barrel will rise but bergen then and now other forms of energy will hopefully gain a good foothold and in the end what is classed as alternative now will be the norm. To say oil will be around for the long term is very brave look at Coal once said the coal industry is going to be there forever. And oil prices driven by political agenda !!!!! We will have to differ widely on that one.

But isnt the key different between oil and coal, is the uses oil has outside the "fuel business, ie plastics, chemical process uses etc, coal has/had limited uses, you can extract "oil" for fuel manufactuer from coal, but its an expensive process

There are already alternatives to oil ergo there are alternatives for by products. There are also alternatives for the plastic industries ect ect as I said it will take time but it will happen.

There has been massive layoffs in the E&P industry in Thailand. I'm one them too.

It's a shame there have been so many lay off and I hope you find a new position soon. However the writing has been on the wall for a long time now. The demise of the oil drilling industry is on a way way spiral as alternative fuels will now have a real chance to establish themselves.

Maybe keep a copy of this post somewhere for yourself, and when the price of oil hits USD 100 + a barrel in the future, go back and read what you wrote...once the frackers in the US are out of business, the Saudis will " close the taps " forcing the price up, alternatively the Saudis will bankrupt themselves, and the price will go up

For short term, if the Saudis and iranians really start having a go at each other or some other war in the middle east...prices will go up

Current oil price is not driven by economics per se, but by polital agenda

I don't class facing as an alternative fuel source. I have no dought that the price of a barrel will rise but bergen then and now other forms of energy will hopefully gain a good foothold and in the end what is classed as alternative now will be the norm. To say oil will be around for the long term is very brave look at Coal once said the coal industry is going to be there forever. And oil prices driven by political agenda !!!!! We will have to differ widely on that one.