Chiang Mai Ram - they seemed to know what they were doing and had the good equipment (in 2016).

3 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

That paragraph is for "former residents" as in people who have given up their Residency/citizenship of Australia and taken up residency/citizenship of another country. The term resident is used in the official context, not a reference to being outside of australia.

quote from above

"a person who was formerly an Australian resident returns to Australia and becomes an Australian resident again"

For 99% of us who haven't declared official residency of another country, still have resident for taxation purposes etc, it doesnt apply.

 

Soory, wrong again Peter. If you have been living/staying outside of Australia for any extended period (no exact rule on that either) then you are no longer a 'resident of Australia'.

It is not a CLink requirement to be a resident of another country, to no longer be resident in Australia.

The ATO rules and regs regarding 'residency' are not the same as CLink - to ATO you can reside in another country and still be a tax resident in Australia.

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/services/centrelink/age-pension/who-can-get-it/residence-rules/residence-descriptions

8 hours ago, Dazinoz said:

When I return to Oz I have no intention to ever return to Thailand but convincing them maybe difficult. I will close all Thai bank accounts and try to get a letter from bank saying accounts closed due to returning to Oz. Same with my house rental agreement. Obviously I will also sell my car and any other possessions too big to take back but maybe a couple boxes full of stuff may assist in my argument.

I have always maintained an Australian address, bank accounts, credit cards, drivers license, shares, cryptos and bullion in Australian exchanges and even have to do a tax return this year on profit from silver sales. Again I hope all helps.

Any suggestions most welcome.

Unfortunately there is no specific rules to follow - must have done this and must not do that. The decision process in CLink is arbitrary and is done on a case by case basis. A lot of that decision making is about what CLink people have written on your file from past contacts, and from any records they have or can get about your assets and any business or family in Thailand.

By 'you' I mean any Aussiue who has been living in Thailand - not you specifically.

If I were 'you' I would make sure that you are letting CLink know that you are intending to return to Australia after you qualify for pension, because if you returned before that you could not live on the dole. Ask them what you should be doing to ensure there will be no problems claiming the age pension, and rental support if needed, when you return after the pension age qualification. That is when you can let them know that you always intended to return after you were able to get the pension, and that you will be staying forever thereafter. You can then tell them about keeping the bank accounts, licence, tax returns, etc.

Asking what you need to do to make sure it is clear that you will never be returning to Thailand to live - maybe a holiday but not to live - is an excellent way to ensure their records show your intentions.  But a warning - be truthful and dont lie about it or try to be smart - they have ways and means of getting information. As the saying goes - 'oh what webs we weave, when we start to deceive'.  It is too hard to remember all the lies - the truth is easy.

And I would also advise not to arrive the day after qualifying - too obvious - raises the system 'flags'.

Call CLink a few times in the months leading up to the date - keep asking what you need to do to get things cleared up and closed off in Thailand, and ready in Australia.

Tell them where you are planning to live when you first arrive, and what your plans are for the future in 5-10 years - where and when.

Discuss what car will you buy and when. Will you use a friend's car for a while. How much clothes you will need to get or not. Furniture. TV. etc etc etc. 

8 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Where do you get this from ??  That intent to leave when you are eligible for a portability, effects the portability ?

 

There is no legislation or statements etc that say anything about it. 

You can walk in to centerlink wearing an "I love Thailand" T shirt, on day one of your 2 year wait, and declare your intention to leave, it wont affect the portability when you become eligible.

Portability is portability, whether you plan to do it or decide later. 

 

Wrong Peter.  If anyone is reading this who is going (or thinking of going) to go back and 'serve' their 2 years to get portability, be assured Peter is wrong. Do not let CLink think you are not going to stay in Australia permanently or you will be recorded as someone who always was going to leave again as soon as the 2 years is up.  Portability can be denied the pension.  When you arrive you have to be intending to stay in Australia, and you have to show that you intend to stay in Australia permanently.

https://guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/7/1/4

7.1.4 Requirements for former residents of Australia receiving a portable pension

Summary

A person must satisfy the SSAct definition of Australian resident in order to lodge a proper claim for a pension. Generally, this means they must be residing in Australia when they lodge their claim.

A claim for pension can be lodged by a former resident who has resumed residence in Australia only if, on the evidence available, there is a clear intention to remain permanently in Australia.

A person who intends to return to Australia for a defined period only (e.g. 2 years) would not be an 'Australian resident' as per SSAct subsection 7(2).

Specific portability rules apply when a person who was formerly an Australian resident returns to Australia and becomes an Australian resident again and is successful in claiming Age or DSP.

Peter - what you are saying only applies to someone that has been living in Australia for a long time before they get the pension - then portability is very much automatic.

But it is not the same for someone that returns to live in Australia and claims the pension - both getting the pension and later portability are not automatic.

On 8/18/2020 at 7:10 PM, Dazinoz said:

This where I get conflicting stories. My accountant and many people on the Aussie Pensioner forums say that I am entitled to it at 66 1/2 even if I went back to Australia that week. Then If i wanted to make it portable I need to stay 2 years in Oz. When I go back I won't be coming back to Thailand.

Others, like yourself are saying I have to be back in Oz 2 years before I can receive it.

Once you are at the age to receive pension and are eligible (eg. lived in Aust in the past for 10+ years) then if you move back to Australia you will immediatly get the pension. But one of the eligibility issues is that you have moved back permanently and intend to stay forever - you must state and show that.

Then after 2 years you can apply for portability to move to another country. However, if there is any suspicion that you always intended to return and then leave immediately after 2 years, they can deny portability. Example: If you have and maintain a Thai family in Thailand while living in Aust on the pension, they can deny portability - and many other reasons that they will not tell you until later. It is not automatic as some people have stated.

They introduced the '2 year rule' to stop people coming back and leaving again immediately they got the pension approved.  Now they are cracking down on all the Expats in places like Thailand that come back and 'serve out' the 2 years waiting period - who always had the intent to leave immediately they serve the 2 years out.

Things are getting harder and harder, and in the years ahead after Covid blowing the Budget, there will be more and more restrictions on all payments from CLink. Expats living overseas on the pension are an easy target, and most people in Aust agree with taking it away from us. Be careful and plan carefully.

The Dole and refugee payments have not been stopped from any increase?? I would not be surprised. It is all wrong.

On 8/20/2020 at 7:29 PM, scorecard said:

Seems to change all the time, international lady told me, about 12 months ago, a 3 week trip outside OZ once a year (during the 2 years) would incur no reduction/suspension of payments at all.

 

Further, another lady told me a few months before that the maximum number of days o/side OZ one trip per year over the 2 years and no reduction/suspension of payments is 10 days.  

I was advised up to 6 weeks a year was OK - as long as the trip was for a valid reason. To go skiiing in Canada was not a valid reason.  Visiting family and friends was a valid reason for 4-5 weeks. You can go online and advise CLink of the planned trip and the reasons. This will flag their system - then when you leave and return it is noted and filed. If you say nothing they dont like it - they like to know why, so best to play nice (they have the gold, they make the rules).

To OP. Yes you will need to go to Aus and apply and re-establish residency in order to gain portability after 2 years. That means you must advise them that you are returning to stay in Australia - use the marriage breakup as main reason. If officially married get a divorce - you will need that or they will state you are 'with partner' and pay you less both in Aust and if/when you leave.  When you return to Australia you will get the pension and it will be backdated to date of 'correct' application and eligibility. I would wait til you are of age - the dole is a lot less than pension - but you can go before eligible (13 weeks as they say - but more if delays - and covid is a delay). Either way, you will have to be able to pay for your costs while the application is processed.  I cannot emphasise enough that you must state clearly that you are returning to Aus to live permanently and that you are no longer married. Then after 2 years or so (leave it a little) then you contact CLink and state that living in Aust is too costly and you are going to try overseas again - maybe Thailand, maybe Pilippines, not sure - am I eligible for portability?   During the 2 years any time overseas will be deducted from the 2 years - any time overseas is deducted from the 2 year period. Now sometimes it is not because they are busy/useless, but the rule is clear.  But - tell them before you leave and tell them why you are going - visit some friends as you have none in Australia, or something like that.  Everything (EVERYTHING) you say is recorded and WILL be used against you in terms of denying anything to you - be careful of anything that you say. And dont be stupid and go around telling everyone what you are going to do - people talk - CLink find out a lot about people that way. And given your past 'confessions' to CLink, once you are settled in Aust, I would ask for a copy of your file records - so you can make sure everything is accurate and you have not said something in the past and it was taken the wrong way by a CLink person.  If anything wrong - lodge an appeal to correct your records.

My advice in the Aust Pension Forum posts (suggest you read through that for the last year or two), that was mentioned by 4myego is about someone on the pension that leaves Aust to temporarily live in another country for 3-9 months at a time, and does that several times - especially to the same country.  But in your case, the issue of portability and the granting of it to someone that clearly only came back to qualify, is under constant review and fine tuning within CLink and the Govt (to save money).  Go back to stay there - maybe after a while you will stay - great medical system that costs SFA when on pension - best in the world IMO. But also one of the biggest socialist nanny states on the planet and is full of bogans. No country is perfect - unless you are rich. 

Just now, simple1 said:

I have found the Centrelink Financial Advisers good to get some input

I hear you - they can be good and have yalked to them too - but they are limited in what they can say and they cannot recommend what you should do. 

52 minutes ago, simple1 said:

A few comments...

 

If your payments can continue while you’re outside Australia and you intend to be away for:

• less than 12 months, we'll continue to pay your payment into your Australian bank account every 2 weeks

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/topics/payments-while-outside-australia/31226

 

If a person is planning to regularly leave Australia for extended periods, personally I would contact Centrelink Age Pension phone number to give them a heads up to ascertain what payment restrictions, if any, would apply, note to file and so on. e.g. you have funds in Superannuation and planning annual extended overseas trips / staying with friends in Thailand erc

That is correct and relevent for specific holidays/reasons for over 6 weeks (under is always OK) and for a person that lives in Australia and only in Australia - eg. a world cruise/tour or an extended trip to visit relatives/friends.  But if you repeatedly do that, or do it for more than 6 months, CLink will investigate - the issue is that if they deem you are not a permanent resident, then you will lose portability.

Yep - good advice. Will be doing that myself.  But my advice is ask CLink before you get the pension approved, and not before you are eligible for portability. Because they will record what you say and it will be looked at later that you were planning that before you got the pension - and they can take that to mean that you never intended to be a permanent resident of Australia.  Unlike the Tax Rules, there is no hard and fast rule and circumstance that applies to everyone - CLink has the total discretion to view each person and each situation in isolation and each delegate has the authority to make decisions based on what they decide. The appeals process gives some certainty to Delegates and People about exactly what any specific rule means, but it is very much an arbitrary process.  That is why there are qualified (by ATO) professional Tax Advisers, but there is no professional and qualified (by CLink) Welfare Advisers.

25 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I can see that they are aligning this up with other welfare payments that stop once a person exits the country, e.g. family A & B payments, Newstart etc etc, however if they are still allowing portability for those that are moving overseas for good and those that are already living overseas, all and good, just means those that return every 6 months or so will have to rethink what they want to do, otherwise lose portability.

Yep - that is it in a nutshell. 

12 minutes ago, rhodie said:

You are talking about a change late in 2019. Since then there has been very little travel because of Covid so I am not sure who it could have affected. Do you actually know anyone who has had this rule applied to them?

Dont know them - but see earlier post - that couple return before the Covid lockdown.  I myself was in Thailand and returned before the lockdown.  The CLink guy was very forward and honest about things - many things - and I have no reason to doubt him.  But as you say - not a lot happening now - and I do intend to follow up with CLink later.  But right now, my intention to live in both Aust and Thailand is gone - unless CLink states clearly (and in writing) that I can do that and I will be OK in terms of ongoing pension payment entitlements.  The big change in summary is that being a 'resdient' is not enough to keep payments when overseas, other than for holidays/reasons or if you move permanently, you have to be a 'permanent resident' which means you cannot also reside in another country.  

I know of several Expats overseas that have lost their Aust resident status - the fact that they are not a legal resident in the country they are 'visiting' long term, and never can be a legal resident, is irrelevent to ATO and CLink. 

3 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

I think what this is saying is that as long as you have lived in Australia as a resident for 35 years, your good to go and have portability, that said, for us expats who have the 35 years we need to do the 2 years for portability.

I think AussieBob18 was possibly referring to a possible late change in 2019 where it might affect those who don't have the 35 years ?

 

@AussieBob18  Care to comment on this ?

Yeh mate - that person probably only read part of the post or didnt understand. It is a complex issue to understand - and even harder to say the right words to describe it - I think I have got it across now, but just to reiterate:

The 2 years for portability is applicabe for anyone who lives overseas and then returns to Australia to claim the pension.

You must have minimum 10 years to get portability, but it doesnt matter how long you have lived in Aust in the past, if you were living overseas before applying for the pension - you must wait 2 years minimum to get portability (no exceptions).

This was introduced years ago to stop those who had lived for more than 10 years in the 60s/70s, coming back to Aust and then claiming the pension, and then immediately leaving and taking the pension payments back with them.  There was a lot of people in Europe (Greece, Italy especially) who did this and there are still many getting the part-pension paid - if they ever return to Aust the payments will cease but they have no intentions to do that.

What 'changed' in late 2019 is that they tightened up the eligibility for portability in terms of 'residence'. Now anyone to be approved for portability, must be a 'permanent resident' - that definition has been expended and refined.  A permanent resident is not someone that has a home in Australia, and also has a home or lives in another country.  Someone that is overseas for any extended period and then returns to their home in Australia, can be deemed to be not a 'permanent resident' and therefore they have to wait 2 years to get portability approved - which will be hard to get if there is any chance they believe you are only going overseas for 6 months or so, and will then be coming back again. Portability is only for those moving to live overseas - it is not for extensive 'holidays' overseas. It never really was, but now they are enforcing what they didnt really enforce before.  Too many people have been living in both Australia and another country, and getting the pension both while living in Aust and while living in another country. The CLink contact advised of one couple that had been doing that for several years, and when they came back to Aust in early 2020 they were told they had lost portability and would have to wait a minimum of 2 years and would then have to apply for portability again.

3 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Recently we thought of returning as there were a lot of factors at hand, but we put that on hold for now as no one is going nowhere with Covid.

 

There is another alternative, i.e. return in 5 and a half years time, wait for the 2 years period, apply at age 67 and 6 months, and then I could make it portable, but with two kids still at school, I don't think it would be wise to up root them again, because if I returned, it would be with the family as we are a tight knit one. 

 

One of the kids would be 11 and the other 16 so they would complete school in Oz, the others well they would have completed school and will be adults so it will be up to them if they want to come with us or stay here in Thailand.

 

I suppose I could return when I am 67 and after 6 months apply for it as I would have re-established my residency by then and wouldn't be looking for portability, again, as the kids would then be 13 and 18 so guess one would complete high school here and the other in Oz.

 

The other alternative is to stay here and not apply for the OAP as it would probably not even cover the rent back in Oz, unless we move to a different state or into the country, lots to chew over, but for the time being we are content here and I have enough to keep us going till I reach a century....lol, will just have to see how things pan out over the years I guess, things can change suddenly, but with kids involved, it's not an easy choice, that said, I think just before pension age would be the way to go and remain in Oz for the kids to have a better future, and the pension would contribute towards the rent, unless I purchased something, like I said, a lot to chew over.

Yeh - there is a lot to think about for you and the family, and with Covid there is no hurry.

Some info to keep in mind for later.

You can apply for the age pension once you reside in Australia - if accepted it will be backdated to application date (approval takes about 3 months).

If you leave Thailand and comeback to Australia to live - saying you wanted to come back earlier but knew you wouldnt get a job and newstart (jobseeker) payments would not be enough to live on - then you can live on the pension - it is enough, especially with rental support is given and lots of free or reduced costs for stuff (especially in Qld).  Then of course after 2.5+ years you can say it hasnt worked out and you tell them you have decided to try overseas again - not sure where - can I get portability?

The pension over 10 years is worth a lot of money in Thailand.  Over 20 years it is worth a hell of a lot.  Worth it IMO.

If you are officially married and Aust knows about the marriage and your kids, then you will not have it so easy.

Applying for migrant for wife and kids will not be easy - even just for the wife it will be an issue.

But it is all a long way off as you say - things change and will be then - as you said, sit tight and wait/think.

12 hours ago, JWRC said:

I have been through this and jumped all the hurdles. My best advice is when you apply for the pension, make sure you don;t use the word "living" example (Q) where have you been living (A) I haven't been living anywhere, I have been travelling in Asia.      (Q) Where have you been for the last 10 months  (A) I have been on an extended holiday, I haven't been living anywhere. and so on and so forth. The word "living" saw my pension application refused, then I had to appeal and really had to use all my wits to get the situation turned around, it was touch and go for a while, all because of one word, they actually told me where I went wrong that's how I know it was the use of this word.

Glad to hear you got through it and won out - and thanks for showing how bad CLink can be.  It is only through forums like this that people can learn what is going on - and what to do and what not to do.  Ring and ask CLink anything and they will ask what you are doing and going to do - and they will record it - but they will not answer hypotheticals.

For those looking to return to Aust and apply for pension in future (and serve out the 2 years), a good thing to do is to visit other countries - all your passport entries and exists are recorded - and they are provided to CLink when you apply for the pension.  Likewise keep a mental 'record' of all the different places you stay/live at when overseas (nudge nudge wink wink) - never stay longer than about 6 months in any one location/city - OK to leave and come back again later - and obviously always rent.  There are no records available to CLink about exactly where you live in a country like Thailand - only ins and outs - unless arrested etc.  Stay in one location for a long period and they will ask if you lived there - so best not to do that in your memory 'record' - and as the OP said, never use the word 'lived' always say 'stayed'. 

12 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Ok, thanks for explaining that, but it still is contradicting, not your explanation, but Centrelink stopping your portability, e.g. on one hand you're saying that Centrelink is saying, if your living overseas after you have qualified for the OAP we will keep paying you, but only if you reside overseas, but if you return on a say 6 months in Oz and 6 months overseas we will stop your portability as you are a resident of Australia and portability is only for expats, that is crazy, but similar to how other welfare payments work, i.e. once outside the country for more than 6 weeks, they cut payments to your account, some payments as soon as you exit from what I have read.

 

I wonder if the left knows what the right is doing, e.g. yes Joe so you went to Thailand and lived there for 6 months this year and then you came back and you lived here for 6 months, yeh we understand but portability has been cancelled because last year you did the same and the year before the same again, so portability is cancelled, but we will still pay your pension in your account in Oz, I mean how do they stop you from sending money overseas if they are still paying you into your account, even if they withhold your payments till you return, as you say they only cancel portability, once they pay you whether its back payments or continued payments every fortnight, how do they stop you from sending money overseas for when you next go overseas, just doesn't make sense to me. 

Yep - it sounds all wrong, and it is, but that is what they are doing since end 2019. Think of it this way - you cannot live in Australia and get the pension, and also live in another country.  It is one or the other - you cannot live in both.  

Much more to it than what you said.  If you lose portability and decide to go overseas anyway, which of course you can do, they will cease pension payments the day you leave. But if you do not return within 6 weeks, they will then also cancel the pension and you will have to reapply when you do return.  And when you return and reapply for the pension, you will have to prove that you intend to live in Aust permanently, and if it is approved you will have to wait at least 2 years before you can then be approved for portability.  Being approved for portability the second time around will not be a walk in the park - you will need to give a very good reason why you want to change where you live again - it is achievable (MIL cancer etc.) but it is a big pain. Try to do it a third time and you are a dead fish trying to fly.

Yes the whole thing is stupid.  Someone who has lived in Australia for over 10 years can apply for and get the pension, and then straight away they can leave to live in another country and take the pension payments with them forever (part or full).  BUT someone who has lived for over 10 years, but leaves Australia to live in another country 1 week before pension age, cannot apply for the age pension when they are overseas - AND if they want to get the pension then they must return to Aust and setup home and prove they intend to stay permanently, before they will get the pension - AND they will have to wait at least 2 years before they can get portability approved to live in another country and keep the pension.  It is all just ridiculous - all because they are trying to reduce the costs of the pension payments in the Budget. IMO are there are far better and fairer ways to reduce Budget costs - refugee welfare is one just for a start.

23 hours ago, rhodie said:

Sorry but I know guys who return to Australia every 6 months to keep their payments at 35/35 because they don't have 35 years in Australia from 16 yo and they do not have a problem. Know of at least 3. Sometimes only return for a week. And I know of many others who return on and off. This has never been a problem and I have never heard of this on any other forum.

I am not talking about those that return now and then for short periods - that will never be a problem. I am talking about anyone who lives in Australia AND resides/lives in another country ASND spends a lot of time in that other country - being in my case Thailand - AND returns to Australia every year for extensive periods - AND continues to do that every year (someone who lives in Australia AND lives in another country).  Up until the end of last year that was OK (well it was not looked at too harshly)  - but I have been advised by CLink that now it aint and they are checking into people doing it.

Are the Aussies you mention doing that? Or are they living overseas and visit Australia.  Do they actually have a home etc. in Australia. If they do live in Australia and are spending 6 months a year overseas on the pension, then PM me with their names and contact details - they need to know.

Get a decent laptop - they are as powerful as most desktops these days and with SSD they are just as good.  Plus they can be taken and used just about anywhere. 

21 hours ago, UncleMhee said:

@AussieBob18 your Centrelink contact is tripping on tripe. 

Current portability rules by payment type

The Department’s Social Security Guide sets out the general portability rules and current portability provisions for individual social security payments and benefits. This information is reviewed and updated regularly to reflect portability policy changes. The Portability Table can be found in the Social Security Guide at Topic 7.1.2.20.

Aged Pension has unlimited portability that is proportionalized after 26 weeks to suit your AWLR. To continue receiving full pay you must have been a resident for 35 years from aged 16 to pension age.

See my last response. 

It is unlimited if you leave Australia and live in another country permanently.

It is not unlimited if you still reside in Australia and visit/live in another country a lot.