AussieBob18

10 hours ago, Logosone said:

It's already happening, Germany is getting ready to get back to business. Stores opening already, some on Friday at the latest.

Australia was ridiculous - but what has been imposed in other parts of the world is insane. Germany is an example of way too far - closing stores and locking people in their houses is wrong. And worse than that was happening in UK and USA. People walking alone being arrested on beaches, walking, in their yards, fishing in a boat - that is totalitarianism. 

Australia implemented measures differently from State to State, but overall there was not the same impositions. A lot of people lost their jobs though - same as everywhere in world. The economy has crashed and there are massive economic problems everywhere - going to take a long time to recover. But we were not forced to stay home, or to wear a mask when outside. And we can go fishing, walking, golfing, etc - but only as long as the people together live together (under same roof).

But while outside we must maintain social distancing of 1.5 metres from others not in the same household. All locations that required people being closely together or touching are closed (pubs, haircuts, movies, massages, most shops). But banks and groceries and shops like KMart and Target are still open - big discounts ????There are queues and lines everywhere and we have to go up this way and back that way - but people are OK with it. In Aust it was too much in some places - in Vic they have gone further and banned a lot more things (like golf). But nowhere have people been locked in their homes and not allowed to freely leave - if they want to.

Judging by the numbers and trends it is clear social isolation has slowed the initial spread. But the panic was unnecessary and the massive lockdowns were also not necessary in most places.  The numbers now clearly show, and have shown since mid March, that there was no need for 'public imprisonment'. https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1160311-covid19-no-need-to-panic-still/page/22/?tab=comments#comment-15323159

In hindsight I know, but next time I hope they realise that there has to be a balance between people dying and life/economy.  1.25 million people die every year in road accidents - we dont ban private cars - we accept that reality - we take precautions.   TB (and HIV and Flu and may other things) kill lots of people every year - we dont stop life/economy because of that fact. A new and concerning pandemic should have to prove that it is going to kill 200 million - before total lockdowns. SARS-Cov3 (this one is Sars-Cov2)  should be proven to be deadly before total lockdowns are put in place. Partial lockdowns in some locations (eg Wuhan, NY, etc) - but only as and where seriously required. Total lockdown must never be used again until after it is proven to be deadly - not that they think it will be. And if any authority makes that call - if they are wrong - then they and all their team/organisation are sacked (accountability). You may think that harsh - but think about all the people starving and suicide and other human disasters happening now - someone has to be made accountable.

Think back and remember AIDS. How many people have since died from AIDS? Over 32 million estimated by WHO - probably more.  And every year another million or two are killed - HIV causes many other deaths.  32 million people dead - and many more still to die - that is a human tragedy - and was the world shut down? No!  What happened is that back then the Govts highlighted and educated people about it - to slow and stop the spread. They did not impose social and economic lockdowns on people - but they made laws about deliberately spreading it.  It became an accepted part of life - take precautions.

OK - we now know that 'social distancing' slows the spread of any viral flu - now we do that next time - first.  If there is a reasonable outbreak somewhere, then immediately block all travel to and from that location/country - that is a better safe than sorry situation that is acceptable to do.  Not shutting down most businesses and trying to stop all people dying - it has to be a balance - like all things that kill people. Most will all accept that - we will maintain distance - but we will continue to work and not lose our house/business/job.  We will learn to wear a mask in a pandemic - we will learn to accept staying at home of sick - we will learn to wash our hands - we will stop getting too close to other people we dont know - etc etc etc. The people are willing to be 'educated' - but they are not willing (majority) to suffer economic loss/destruction unnecessarily.

If Sars-Cov3 proves to be deadly with an infection rate of over 30% and the same death rate as Ebola - then shut it all down. But only after it is proven to be that deadly - facts - not modelling.  Some people will panic and shut themselves away in their houses when it starts. That is Ok - up to them. Some people will demand we shut the world die or we are all going to die - ignore them - wait for the facts.  No more Govt panicking and locking everyone in their houses - based on a model - no more crying wolf. 

As can be clearly shown in life, people who are panicking demand others also panic. It is rare in a panic to find people who will remain calm and look for a rational view of the problem and decided calmly on the best course of action to take - and have a plan B.  People panic and most just follow blindly - they panic until someone tells them to calm down it is all OK - but they never easily stop panicking - it is hard to do. 

Govts worldwide were pressured to follow suit because of others panicking.  Sweden is still being criticised for not panicking enough (but not by the majority of its own people). Some people are still thinking that millions are going to die - keep the lockdowns - screw the economy.  Take precautions - but the time to move forward is now.  WHO and all the experts who predicted death and destruction were wrong.

9 hours ago, chessman said:

A visual representation with worldwide daily totals of death. You can see they seem to have stopped growing exponentially at the start of April and have been (relatively stable) for 3 weeks now.

 

 

Yep - I look at this link every day - Daily WHO Report

Open the latest report - scroll down to page 10 - similar graph.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/situation-reports

3 hours ago, rumak said:

Bob,  you are a real trooper !    After a day or two of politely giving my thoughts on the current

situation I have moved to the sidelines for a much needed rest.  

Your response above is again right on..... after a while the  "conspiracy guys"  and "tin foil hat" comments just show me that we are trying to offer differing opinions to people who's mind just doesn't want to hear it.    At least for some of us,  its nice to know that we are not alone in our views.   Sure,  they are not all exactly the same ...... but close in many ways.

The one thing that is a bit disappointing is how few members can actually express what they as an INDIVIDUAL  feel about certain subjects.    

Best,    Rumak

Thanks mate - much appreciated.

Cheers - Bob.

1 hour ago, johnnybangkok said:

And what you have written is classic Trump, Fox, OANN, Rush Limbaugh right wing propaganda. I only wish right wing anti-golbalists would have an original thought in their head other than blindly follow the obvious misinformation spewing out of the right wing media.

If anything the Covid crisis has shown that a cohesive, centralised government with established instituations that predict and handle major events such as this are more important than ever. Trump has shown the downside of shutting down your pandemic department, not listening to the experts and going your own way. There was ample time to get the American house in order but a solid month of first ignoring it, then denying it, then minimising it and even joking about it has left the USA in a terrible state with C19. Trump called it a Democratic hoax, spread false information about the severity, blamed the Obama administration and championed untested and potentially dangerous cures. His lack of federal guidance has left states in a mish-mash of solutions, with some backing self-isolation whilst others don't. States are having to bid against each other for essential supplies and even now, testing (which we have all agreed is the way forward) is no-where near the level it needs to be to contain the virus. Against all scientific advice Trump pushed for the country to be open by Easter, then the end of April and now mid-May. He has actively encouraged people to gather in numbers with no social distancing with his 'liberate Minnesota", "liberate Michigan" and "liberate Virginia" nonsense whilst still perpetuating his 'it's no worse than the flu' doctrine that his cult followers are still following. His Captain Chaos approach has lead to the highest rate of infections recorded by any country and 42,500 deaths (and counting). His 'press conferences' are still full of misinformation, self-congratulations and downright lies and resemble a Trump rally more than the information and leadership role it's supposed to play. The man is a walking disister but his cult followers are either blind to all this or so willfully ignorant that they continue to preach his ludicrous notions of 'less government' and 'freedom is more important than death'.

I will predict that after all this, the world will do exactly the opposite of what you say and embrace globalism in the knowledge we are all in this together whilst insisting on more centralised controls so this can never happen again.

As my previous posts have hopefully demonstarted, I am no 'left-wing liberal' as I don't think it's particularly helpful for right wingers to continually bring up the left/right debate (which you all do at every opportunity). I don't think it's important to put labels on people when we can all suffer the same fate, but I will say that the vast majority of the misinformation being thrown around right now is from right-wing media not the 'fake news' your beloved leader likes to demonise so much. And as much as you bemoan the UN, the EU and I'm sure the WHO, they are some of the only voices of reason in a sea of downright stupidity.

And no, patriotism and nationalism isn't coming back for the vast majority of people because we can all clearly see that patriotism and nationalism are just badly marketed excuses for hatred and isolation. They're there to stoke further division and hatred of others, just because they're not in your 'gang'. 

As I said in a previous post, your first post was well thought out and provided a solution of which I wholeheartedly agree (and marked a vast change in tone and content from your previous posts) but you keep spoiling it with your unblinking defence of governments and individuals who are literary throwing fuel on an already out-of-hand fire in the name of some right-wing ideology that is proving to be whoefully lacking at a time when level heads and cohesive solutions are needed most.    

I do hope you feel better after that Mate - let me make a couple of points.

There is far more rubbish and hate coming out of the left wing media - you just agree with it, so you think it is OK.

The untruths and exaggerations about Trump you listed, only shows that to be true - because not only is that rubbish being spewed by the liberal media - the OP issue is how Health Authorities, Media and Govt have unnecessarily created a panic and implemented a social and economic shutdown - but yet you make this about Trump (see the personal nature of liberal attacks?).

Maybe I am wrong and Trump, Brexit was a passing fad - but I very much doubt that.  And I definitely do not agree that people will see the 'benefits' of centralised un-elected bureaucrats controlling their lives in the future.

My original post was a deliberate attempt to put a balanced and fair assessment out there for people to consider. My comments since then are very much in response to the questions and criticisms posted.

Please allow me one more 'grace'. The use of personal insulting terms like 'nazi' and 'sexist' and 'islamaphobe' and 'racist' are all used (over-used) by the liberal left to attack some person who has questioned something or proposed something that they do not agree with. Examples:

3 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

For a long time now I focus on supporting and cheering up good athletes, which inspire me with their performance. Countries? No, I don't care where they were born, just what they do.
May be I listed too much to John Lennon's "Imagine".

OK for the Olympics I guess. I'll admit the lesser Aussie athlete won that gold medal in skating when he 'did a Badbury' - but I did cheer him over the line - to win you gotta finish ????

11 minutes ago, drbeach said:

That's uncalled for and highly inaccurate.

If you had the intellectual capacity to read my two comments properly, you would have understood that in Thailand, like in every other country, there are different social classes.

I happen to know several successful Thai business owners, some Chinese-Thai, others Thai-Thai. They are middle aged or elderly in one case and are a pleasure to hang out with. Somchai the fishmonger however, no. But Mr. Nguyen Viet the Vietnamese fishmonger over in Soc Trang province, in the Mekong delta is as unlikely to become friends with Mr. farang as Somchai is. I have nothing in common with either. However, I do have several cool male Vietnamese friends, like I have male Thai friends. They are of course educated and can speak English well.

What is interesting is that I find it difficult to strike up genuine friendships with Vietnamese women. In Thailand I have more female friends, but also have some male ones. In Vietnam, virtually only male friends. I guess in Vietnam, there is a greater stratification of the sexes.

Agree with this and your previous comments mate. The OP has another post where he is talking about the Thai wife of an Expat that he is going to sleep with - that is the mentality of most Expats in Thailand mate and that is just one of many reasons to  avoid them.  When we lived full time in Thailand, we lived in a 'high end' gated community and we made 'friends' with a few Thai neighbours. We also had a few close Expat friends, and my one rule was simple (after a couple of 'troubled souls'), if he is the right age and is married to a nice/good Thai lady (wife would tell me) then maybe - but if not, then absolutely not. Have 4 that we still stay in contact with and every visit we met them, and often some of their other Expats and Thai friends. 

3 hours ago, Logosone said:

You are being deliberately obtuse now.

He said clearly "Sweden was 'following' the UK's original approach of resisting lockdown, and was 'disappointed' by Britain's abrupt U-turn."

You know very well the UK's original approach was herd immunity. If Sweden is following the UK's original approach, Sweden is following a herd immunity approach.

Mate - stop listening to him - I formed the same opinion some time back. He is either exceptionally lacking in the ability to understand what you are stating, or he is deliberate being argumentative.  I told him that he was in the wrong Dept - the Argument Department was two doors down on the right (Monty Python) - but he keeps coming back. 

4 hours ago, bestie said:

I guess that's the reason why the USA is so struggling with it. People are divided and the "right wing" is pushing their agenda forward by risking people life. They don't even care. On YouTube and even here in the forum. They have a complete different opinion of what "Freedom" means. It's pur egoism. I'm so tired to see pictures of "Life or die" "Is just a flu" or "Back to work". All these little naysayers are becoming online the smartest politicians. The reality is , they have blood on their hands. Jesus. America is really Fck up. I don't see such a mess in any other country right now. Maybe Aussies are following.? 

You right now looking at "only" 2k death per day in the US, if the US opens up again and go back to life like it was before you will looking up up to 3 Million Death only in America. Up to 300k death per day. If you want to risk your life it's ok it's your freedom. But don't come close to other people who want to protect their own life and the life of their family. 

I lost my hop that the US will ever "wake up" again from this Nonsense right wing BS agenda with all these little YouTube "stars" who are experts in everything. Give me a break. Please. These Guys are insane. I know the Virus comes from 5G and from the communist. Of course. Jesus. 

Yes, of course there will be a life coming after the virus. But in the meantime please stop to try to be an expert and give people false security. Get used to it how the "new normal" will look like. Everyone is suffering and struggling with it. ---- Sorry but I can't take these people anymore. 

What you have written is classic anti-Trump anti-right wing emotion and feelings. There is nothing in there that I can see but your feelings and emotions - and of course personal insults against those who disagree with the total panic and economic shutdowns.  I was corrected by one person who was left-wing but agreed with me - he pointed out that some lefties were against the lockdowns and economic destruction - but I must state now that the vast majority of 'pro' lockdowns are lefties.

Sorry what I and many others have said has upset you - but the people of the 'free' world are turning 'right' - Trump and Brexit were just the beginning.  The world is turning against globalism and centralised controls by unelected bureaucrats (UN, EU, etc.).  Sorry but Patriotism and Nationalism is coming back - what country do you support at the Olympics or the Football World Cup?  The fact is that left wing liberal ideals have been failing for a long time, and this Covid pandemic and the response, has made more people wake up and see how badly left wing ideals have affected people's lives. 

But what I would like you to take away from my post/response is just one thing.  I want you to note that the vast majority of statements about this pandemic by like minded people as myself, are not personal attacks and personal insults against people who disagree with us.  You may think what I wrote above is personal, but it is not.  However, the vast majority of statements made by people like minded with yourself are very personal.  Take a step back - look at the facts logically and without emotion or feeling - then form your own opinion and then express it without insulting those who express different opinions.

5 hours ago, Logosone said:

The media and the political opposition played an important role. It was they who got the government, who initially insisted on secrecy and did not release the modelling it had received from Imperial College, to finally reveal the details of the modelling on which their decisions were based.

 

The WHO played an important role because Mike Ryan made clear that testing and isolating the infected was the way to defeat the virus, because the WHO distributed test kits and so on. Did the WHO make mistakes, they surely did. But they were in tough position, because they depended on data fed to them by the Chinese. They had to take that at face value, so when the Chinese told them there was no human to human transmission, the WHO repeated this claim and it was a mistake. However, it was most likely a mistake that the Chinese made as well, and they really held this belief for a while, that there was no human to human transmission.

 

I don't think there was a grand conspiracy by the WHO or China, though clearly China did take too long to reveal the full facts, for very obvious and understandable reasons. The medical data had to work its way up through the political machinery. We saw the same in the West, when Merkel took until 16 March to end flights from China.

 

I have not seen anyone more alarmist than Neil Ferguson, who claimed that 2 million would die in the US and 500,000 in the UK. And of course he was in Downing Street giving his presentation.

 

So if we are going to say who is to blame, yes let's look at the role of the WHO, the media, but clearly it was these experts like Ferguson and the politicians who fell for it hook line and sinker like 15 year old school girls who took us down the path of economic ruin.

Good summary - the local 'experts' (and media) were definitely to blame for pushing the local Govts into extreme measures.

5 hours ago, chessman said:

Very simplistic. Extremes on both sides are clearly bad. But (for example) the Scandinavian countries (have we discussed Sweden enough yet?) are successful functioning democracies with many of the ‘Socialist’ qualities that people like Orwell would have supported.

Talk about simplistic.  'successful functioning democracies ' is not what a growing number of residents in those countries think, and many others looking in from outside agree.  

5 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

Your original post was well thought out and had many suggestions that I agree with (although it has be said you have significently changed your tune from previous posts you have made over the last few weeks) but now you've just gone and spoiled it with your this 'is what happens when a Govt has too much power and control' nonsense.  

You argue how difficult it should have been for governments to impose lockdowns when this power to dictate in a crisis has been demonstrated many times as an absolute neccessity in terms of crisis. Whether it was WW II, swine flu or terrorist threats, the power for governments to take full control of the people is an essential tool in tackling major emergencies.  

You argue 'It should have been much harder to impose the Covid controls and lockdown than it was' so what do you suggest? A full parliamentary debate? A televised head-to-head between the conflicting opinions? Oh I know, lets have a referendum. That seemed to work out well before.

The UK is not some dystopian, facist, totalitarium state as you are trying to parallel with your 'V for Vendetta' analogy (although I think many of you think it is) and you are not some plucky freedom fighter fighting the forces of tyrany by pointing out to us ''sheep' that we had all better wake up and smell the roses. I'm afraid the reality is much more boring than that. They're just a bunch of well meaning, if highly incompetant people, trying desperately to catch up on a crisis that they absolutely should have been ahead of already.

As I've said before, questions need to be asked and people held accountable but the time for finger pointing should come after we have this all under control.  

I hear you - but I am not talking about the 'normal' people control that Govts must and should have - I agree with you there. I am talking about that the world Govts were able to shut down the world economies and make people unemployed and create starvation and huge social problems (and each Govt did it differently), all for what is turning out to be a bad flu - as some people initially said it might be, and tried to talk about the need for caution.

The V for Vendetta analogy was not stated as if here and now - it was given to show where this could end up going.

Highly incompetent and ignorant people making rash and unreasonable decisions - we agree on that mate.

The problem in waiting to blameis when - when this be 'over' such that then we talk about who to blame, and stop it ever happening again - what exact event or circumstance means that it is now OK to start making people accountable.  If you take that approach, then I can assure you it will never be under control - they will extend the concerns and keep off the attacks until they are no longer relevant in people's minds. The iron is hot now IMO - make them think the only way to make up for it is to now get things back together and put in place steps so it doesnt happen again so easily.

7 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Let's look at who was really in charge, and who actually put in place these economic ruination policies of lockdown and for what reason.

Boris Johnson abdicated responsibility early on and said he was "guided" by the scientists.

Who was the most alarmist?

It was Neil Ferguson. He was the one who posted a paper saying that 2 million people in the US would die, 500,000 in the UK would die. It was based on this hyper-alarmist modelling, of which Ferguson later tried to weasel out of, that Boris Johnson then put in the place the policies that he did.

The media was not actually the most alarmist. It was the Imperial College experts led by Neil Ferguson that raised the Hollywood scenarios. When they would have known full well that taking no action at all was never a possibility.

Hard to say exactly who was the most alarmist - but it is fair to call out the experts who predicted huge numbers dying worldwide - 50 mill to 200 mill - and in each country.

But the most culpable is and always must be China.  They either ignorantly or deliberately withheld information from the world - for whatever reason it doesn't matter - they caused all this panic - period.

WHO are complicit because they believed them, and they believed because like in so many other organisations and institutions around the world, the CCP has spent decades gaining 'influence'.  The warnings that Taiwan gave them were ignored because the CCP demands that WHO ignore anything from Taiwan.

Then when the WHO finalised realised the pandemic that was coming, the senior 'experts' in each country took the WHO advice and information, and jumped on board with their own dire predictions and recommendations.

The media reacted as they always do - they sensationalised and over-stated the problems and deaths.

Then the politicians took drastic actions as they realised they were a long way behind and had to 'catch up' and get ready for the inevitable cases and deaths that were coming.

And then the politicians started using selected stats and information and half-truths against their opponents in power.

Then the media fanned the flames and kept pushing whatever sensational narrative that they wanted - both sides.

Meanwhile Taiwan had already shut down all travel to and from Wuhan and then to and from China many months ago - and they are now OK.

33 minutes ago, chessman said:

This seems laudable but would it work in practice? If another virus came along that spread just as easily but killed 20%, would governments waste precious time having to get ‘permission’ to take lockdown measures. It’s a very difficult balance. 

Also, very early days, but opinion polls seem to show that people are broadly supporting government measures.
V for vendetta! Nice one, written (the original graphic novel) by a well known socialist (Alan Moore) by the way!!! ???? 

Yes you are right - but the balance is too far with the Govt now.  What will come out of this in the future, once they realise and accept that the WHO/CDC driven panic was unnecessary, is a reluctance to again take it on face value that the experts are always right, anbd the realisation that Govts are all nazis at heart and will go too far if they are not stopped.

That could be bad as you say when something as contagious as the Flu and as deadly as Ebola surfaces. Maybe (I hope) what will come of that realisation is the need to enforce globally total transparency and reporting mechanisms for all new infectious spreads - and the banning of all travel into and out of any country that does not comply with those requirements.  Just think, if we had all done what Taiwan did (who know the CCP better than anyone except maybe Hong Kong), this infection would have been controlled much better and not spread as far and wide.

So was George Orwell, who wrote the two most influentual and defining novels about society's that are run by despotic leaders under totalitarian rule - 1984 and Animal Farm.  Unfortunately, like most men of words and thoughts (academics), he failed to see the irony of what socialism always becomes - totalitarian.  And that is because not all people have goodwill towards all others, and the easiest form of Govt bad people can get power in, is one based on socialism (Lenin Stalin Mao etc.).  If you think that China and Nth Korea are not modern examples of exactly what George Orwell wrote about, then you are very wrong.

55 minutes ago, chessman said:

Fair enough, but how can you have such a bad opinion of it if you never watch it? The BBC has its faults but is more balanced than most news sources. In the UK the left and the right both tend to get angry with it which I guess is a sign that it is somewhere in the middle.

I did the same 20 years ago. But every now and then I take a look, and it confirms yet again that it is all (mainly) inane rubbish.  I will watch a specific event on TV that is not being shown via other nethods, but I record and wait so I can skip the (mostly) stupid annoying ads. 

17 minutes ago, chessman said:

Did you see the story yesterday from Thailand about sea turtles in Phuket laying eggs on beaches? Pretty amazing.

Actually not good. The locals will go and dig up the eggs for food, reducing the chances of the eggs laid hatching and surviving.  Better they stay away from Pattaya and use other places. 

Excellent work by the Professor and his team. They have 'come out' going against the grain - but it was inevitable that once real research was done, the Covid virus would be seen for what it has turned out to really be - a bad new flu that most people have no immunity against.  

There was one point he made that was very telling to me (words like) "The virus, like all virus, slowly 'mutates' as it is passed from person to person, and it becomes less lethal and less infectious."

He agreed that the initial social containment was needed to stop the flu when it first broke out, but when asked if and when the lockdowns should be eased, he correctly responded (words like) "I am a viroligist and issues like that (when to ease lockdowns) is not something that I can comment on".  If only more health 'authorities and experts' would also speak the same truth.

Bill Gates? Who is spokeperson for a consortium of companies looking to make a 'universal vaccine' for profit?  Why is he there??  As the Professor said : I respect Bill Gates ........ but ...... 

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I doubt many in high places will welcome such common sense. They are going to look rather "silly" if their actions were not justified. Careers depend on it being as bad as they keep telling us.

I envy Aussies. The government actions appear far less draconian than in in NZ, but rates seem comparable.

While Oz is loosening restrictions, NZ faces another week of total lockdown and at least 2 more of almost total lockdown, or as they say, level 4 with KFC.

That is what happens under 'modern' Govts - in response to any crisis they automatically go into authoritarian role. Covid is a crisis and the modern Govts will usually respond without rational thought or reason.  As Thomas Sowell said (something like) - 'the strongest argument for socialism is that it sounds good. The strongest argument against socialism is that it doesn't work. But those who live by words and feelings will always have a soft spot in their hearts for socialism - because it sounds so good'. 

I think you will find at the core of most modern Govts is a belief that all people are good and will be good in all situations, if they are just 'educated' how to be good, and that they are 'guided' towards doing the right thing (according to them).  To those Govts these are not draconian impositions due to Covid, they are necessary impositions to protect everyone.  As in all modern 'nanny states' they will protect everyone to their death - and then still feel vindicated and rightious, because they were only protecting everyone.

What we are seeing in the ridiculous over the top Covid social distancing controls being put in place in some locations aroud the world, is what happens when a Govt has too much power and control.  It should have been much harder to impose the Covid controls and lockdown than it was. Think about it - they didnt have to 'prove' it was necessary to anyone or anything - they just decided and did it.  Whether the Covid controls were right or wrong is another issue - this issue is whether the Govts should have been so easily able to enforce them. Not since WW2 have western Govts been able to imnpose such removel of personal rights and freedoms - it was far too easy. 

'V for Vendetta' is a movie is well worth watching and listening to closely in these current times. This is one of many classic lines in the movie:  'People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people."

Similar words were spoken long ago - "When people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

There were two nuns...
One of them was known as Sister Mathematical (SM),

and the other one was known as Sister Logical (SL).
They were out for a walk and it is getting dark and they are still far away from the convent.
SM: Have you noticed that a man has been following us for the past thirty-eight and a half minutes? I wonder what he wants.
SL: It's logical. He wants to rape us.
SM: Oh, no! At this rate he will reach us in 15 minutes at the most! What can we do?
SL: The only logical thing to do of course is to walk faster.

(so they do)
SM: It's not working.
SL: Of course it's not working. The man did the only logical thing. He started to walk faster, too.
SM: So, what shall we do? At this rate he will reach us in one minute fifteen seconds.
SL: The only logical thing we can do is to split up. You go that way and I'll go this way. He cannot follow us both.
(so they did and the man man followed Sister Logical.
Sister Mathematical arrives at the convent and is worried about what has happened to Sister Logical.
Then Sister Logical arrives 5 minutes and 20 seconds later.
SM: Sister Logical! Thank God you are here! Tell me ..... what happened!
SL: The only logical thing that could have happened. The man couldn't follow us both, so he followed me.

SM: Yes, yes! But what happened then?
SL: The only logical thing happened. I started to run as fast as I could and he started to run as fast as he could.
SM: And?
SL: The only logical thing happened. He reached me.

SM: Oh, dear! What did you do?
SL: The only logical thing to do. I lifted my dress up and leaned over.
SM: Oh, Sister! What did the man do?
SL: The only logical thing to do. He pulled down his pants.
SM: Oh, no! What happened then?
SL: Isn't it logical, Sister? A nun with her dress up can run faster than a man with his pants down.

And for those of you who thought it would get dirty ..........cleanse your minds!

19 minutes ago, chessman said:

lol

Political games. Nobody ever wants to take responsibility and say "yes, we made mistakes".

 

You first - list all the Dems mistakes, and then I will list Trump's.

I will give you until the end of the month - it will take a while.

6 minutes ago, Stocky said:

Yes, it's all Obama's fault, China, the WHO, the Governors, the Fed, the FBI, the CIA, anybody, but anybody but the 'man' at the top.

I guess they lost Truman's "The Buck Stops Here" sign somewhere along the years.

So you are agreeing with the video or not?

You saying Trump caused all the deaths from Covid?