1 hour ago, 3NUMBAS said:

farage doesnt have a property empire like blair and the kinnocks family who plundered the EU gravey train galore

 

inc

Kinnocks have six state pensions worth £185,000 per year, says think tank

Lord Kinnock and his wife, Glenys, have amassed six public sector pensions worth a total of £185,000 per year, according to a new analysis by a think tank.

Hmm way out of my league of course, but is that really so unusual. It's around £90K each, I read about a chief constable retiring on £88k just the other day, and that's one pension. CEOs of big companies get pensions in millions, and small companies in 100s of K. I think it is a bit daft to think it it is wonderful for members of the party of personal greed to enrich themselves, but Labour members are all supposed to wear sackcloth and ashes. 

47 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Not true, a xenophobe would hate all foreigners, I only hate the Germans and Dutch so not a xenophobe.

Not correct, xenophobia means a fear of strangers (Xenos=stranger in Greek). You don't have to fear or hate them all for it to apply.

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

snip 

 

I decry the Nasty Party every day and will continue to do. But good, decent honourable people are not restricted to the independence movement - there are Labour and LD voters, I am sure, who despise the greed and corruption of the Tories as much as I do. So when you see someone attach the Tories, don't automatically think they are the SNP - just assume that they know right from wrong, humanity from greed and honesty from corruption.

If we don't like Tories why should we be shy about saying so. It is not intended as a personal offence to those who do, who can readily talk about Labour, SNP, Libs, and Greens in highly uncharitable terms, if they want too. They often do.

The problem with Boris, and Trump, and a number of other similar national leaders is this.

They have Authority,   without Humility, Humanity, Honesty, or Decency. 

3 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

Excellent response. You saved me from typing the same.

The idea of 'trickle down economics' has been proven false time and time again; any money large corporations get, if not specifically linked to investment, goes to share buy-backs and inflating their bonuses. This has been proven time and time again. 

Smigel made some good points IF the tax breaks had worked the way they should have but the reality is corporations don't give a hoot about the man on the street and have just said, 'thank you for the massive handout, I can now buy my second yacht'. 

 

So tell me again about the GOP being the party best suited to look after the economy.

   snip

Smigel certainly puts forward coherent arguments from the Trump side which is refreshing to say the least. However  'trickle down economics' has been a joke for a long time. Margaret Thatcher was devoted to it and widened the wealth gap considerably whilst destroying UK manufacturing PLC.

Some words from part of a song I wrote and recorded a while back are relevant. (My copyright)

Verse

I met a young man from a far off country

He told me they call it the land of the free

I said I wonder why, explain that to me

He said,  there, I can be anyone, I want to be

For I can have all that money can bring 

I'll be rich as a lord and proud as a king

And if I don't make it big on the first time around

I'll be fine 'cause the wealth will come trickling down.

Chorus

Trickle down, Trickle down,

From the rich at the top to the poor all around,

Trickle down, trickle down,

If you really believe that you must be a clown. 

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

snip

 

That said, it is not inevitable that Scotland would seek to rejoin the EU as a full member. There were a relatively small number of Leave voters in the Brexit referendum, and I read that as many as 30% of independence supporters favoured Brexit so nothing about the future is clear at present. 

Indeed, all these posts saying you won't be able to manage without England, completely ignore the fact that many other similarly sized nations, Finland, Denmark, Portugal, and smaller ones like Lithuania and Slovenia have survived without big brother. 

There will be complicated trade, and financial matters to sort out of course, has no one ever managed to do this before?

And then there are the posts saying you will have to - join the EU, adopt the Euro, etc etc. The answer is not necessarily, all sorts of things are possible.  Scotland could join a Northern league with countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland etc, that was linked to EU in different ways, just for one example. It would be pleasant to share our future with other civilised countries, as it gets harder every day to describe England as one of those, under the current for right mismanagement.

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

snip

Therein lies the activist civil servants who know that when they get it wrong (deliberately?) the government will be blamed for their actions. The civil service is full of them and they work against central government and ignore their advice.

 

Too late now, it's blame the government time.....

Oh dear, whatever you do don't blame the toffs eh.

Straight out of the, UK's foulest creep,  Dominic Cummings, songbook. The civil service is awash with conspiracy, and the far right will never be safe until a Johnson loving Tory yes man controls every department.

Big laugh in Scotland where the Tories who were leading the attack on Swinney (Education minister) fell suddenly quiet when they realised that the Tories down south were making an even bigger mess of it.

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I call B.S. 

 

If Bernie had been nominated he would have been red baited to death in 16 and 20.

 

Anyone with an elementary understanding of American politics knows that. 

 

Happily there are way fewer Bernie to trump turncoats this time. Why? Because now we know for sure that he's a wanna fascist dictator. Plus his disastrously bad response to the pandemic. 

4 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

It really baffles me that someone who is a Bernie Sanders supporter (I am too) would vote Trump because he feels the establishment candidates are worse.

I am not a fan of these establishment candidates neither, but I would vote for them any time (even while having to close my nose when doing so) if that would keep Trump from getting a second term.  And at least there is a progressive wing in the Democratic party that the center and right-wing establishment Dems have to take into consideration.  In Camp Trump it's only corruption, incompetence and hatred for anything that smells progressive.  So for me a Biden-Harris ticket is disappointing, but 100 times better than the evil Trump-Pence duo. 

This is really interesting, and a reflection of the fact (To me) that politics is not a one dimensional business. Graphs can show a libertarian/authoritarian axis, a standard left/right axis on social policies, and others.  

"It really baffles me that someone who is a Bernie Sanders supporter (I am too) would vote Trump because he feels the establishment candidates are worse."

Let's just take that back to left wing supporter voting right wing, it certainly is strange, but extreme left to extreme right is not such a leap, when you see them both so far out on the authoritarian axis, Stalin and Hitler had a lot in common. The "Establishment" is middle of the road, and is a big bugbear to many people, but that is where most practical things actually get done. The worrying thing is that as we get more and more carried away by ideology, the less capable we become of focussing on reality, and practical matters. Debts are real, tax income is finite, the state cannot fund everything. The broader picture of politics is not seen by many, particularly the passionate and idealistic young, these are the ones who can so alarmingly switch from far left to far right. 

The greatest issue in politics is corruption, this does not belong exclusively to left or right, although it is blindingly obvious to me that Trump, Boris Johnson, and their cronies are putting in a an awe inspiring performance in the promotion of corruption, and the dismantling of democratic safeguards at the moment. There is plenty of corruption on the left of course, it is just dressed up in a different way. The old Labour councils of Strathclyde were notorious, for a Scottish example.

I think Kamala is great, and electable. Bernie Saunders is centre left in European terms, but for the USA I would say too far left to be elected. Corbyn has a fraction of Saunders brains (Let alone Warren's) and was un-electable. Biden is old, but basically decent, and certainly electable.

1 hour ago, hugh mckee said:

wow, what a load of nonsense, it seems if you see the truth you come away with this drivel, I've no idea what strams od facebook post titles means, I don't use facebook, twitter or any of that stuff, of course you do, your laptop is a big part of your life obviously...........I don't wish to discuss the concept of anything with you.

Look please, before you totally lose the heid, this forum is supposed to be for reasoned argument as most I believe understand. Of course it gets passionate sometimes, but if people go over the score (as I have done on occasion) the mods reel you in. Before you resort to criticism of others talking drivel, you should stop talking drivel yourself - try a reasoned argument supported by evidence and showing links. Otherwise it is just opinionated farting into space, and people get tired of reading it.

" I'm not wasting any more time on ultra left wing guys like you". There are no ultra left wing contributors to TV on the forums I read, left wing certainly. Given the nature of old western white guys, the right wing is over represented here, no surprise there, older voters tend to be more right wing. Are there any ultra right wingers amongst them, one or two for sure, but most are more conservative with a small c. I can only wonder if you feel inadequate to be a part of a debate with people of fairly different views, and cover it up with sad dismissive phrases like " I'm not wasting any more time on you". 

Incidentally I have lived nearly all my life in Scotland, and currently, spend just a little bit more of my time in Scotland than Thailand. No doubt you will inform me as to how entitled you believe I am to hold opinions on independence. 

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I imagine that much of the 79% the ONS refers to is heavily skewed towards London, and probably significantly concentrated in a relatively small number of wealth creators. (As an aside, if Scotland were to rejoin the EU, I wonder how many would seek to establish offices in Edinburgh, which already has a sizeable financial sector?).

 

 

snip

 

What should be really worrying to everyone - Pro Brexit or anti, pro Scottish Independence or anti - is what we all stand to lose. We depend on tax income to support our local and national government services, all of us. Because of Brexiteer's ideological obsession with a one sided Brexit that suits the UK only, they are likely to come away from the negotiating table with nothing. The EU leaders are already irritated beyond measure with the UK's childish posturing, why would they do a deal with our financial sector. They are not stupid, they can do 95% of this stuff themselves. 

     This means a really huge financial loss for London/UK plc, and the massive lost tax revenue will hurt everyone in the country. 

     I hope indeed that Edinburgh could benefit eventually, but meanwhile we will have to get on without our share of this revenue. It is certainly a good lesson to learn for all, that the UK economy is un-balanced and depends far too much on one source of income. If someone had put a stake through the heart of the wicked witch in the 80s, we might have avoided destroying a large part of our manufacturing industry.  

21 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

When I was young (about 60 years ago), we all wanted to be American. 

With the Vietnam war, it became  the most hated country. 

Can not say jealous or despise now. 

With Mr. Trump as president, well continously in the news, rarely in a positive way. 

When I was young (about 70 years ago!) the US and Americana were certainly very popular. There was a feeling of open mindedness, positivity, and un-stuffiness that we all admired. The music that came from the US at that time - early Rock and Roll, the great musicals, and Jazz,  has been a wonderful gift to the whole world. 

You are right, by the end of the 60s that all changed, Vietnam was a scar on the US, and the UK was making the best rock music in the world, which the hugely positive balance in music exports in our favour clearly confirms (From a popularity point at least).

But closer to topic,  I would say the overwhelming image that we get on the Kamala Harris issue, is the sad focus on prejudices rather than abilities. It is clear that she is Trump's worst nightmare.

She is a woman ................he is a misogynist

She is coloured..................he is a racist

She is highly intelligent..........he is rambling incoherently and floundering around like a dying fish on the beach. 

Trump appears to dislike, and indeed be afraid of, intelligent women that he can't control. He thinks that women should be obscene but not heard. Unfortunately for him, the world is changing, and he and his sort of dinosaur - the fat, old, corrupt, white, power obsessed males- are very slowly fading away. Neither they, nor the USA for that matter, will rule the world forever. 

12 minutes ago, sungod said:

Yes please go ahead, it would be a vast improvement on the regular <deleted> you post.

 

Good suggestion!

Yawn,

teachers report............must try harder!

27 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

snip

Who it did impact, however, were a small number of very wealthy individuals who, unfortunately, held power by virtue of their status. These men were personally on the verge of ruination because of the Darien scheme, but not the country itself. But because they had the parliament in their pocket, they sold out to save their own hides.

I woke up early in a misty (Haar) East of Scotland, and followed this interesting thread with many excellent, and sometimes eloquent contributions. 

As you say above they sold out. The often mistaken song "Parcel of rogues" refers to these Scots men, not the English at all.

"The Scots deserve no pity, if they voluntarily surrender their united and separate interests to the mercy of an united Parliament, where the English have so vast a majority…their 45 Scots members may dance round to all eternity, in this trap of their own making."

This is a quote from Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun (A village that is a pleasant cycle away for me) at the time of the Act of Union. He was so disgusted by the betrayal of his country by his fellow landowners that he left public life to concentrate on farming. 

The idea that the whole independence thing is all about being anti-English, is just silly, and rather childishly self centred of those who think that way. A friendly separation is what we need, with maximum co-operation to our mutual benefit thereafter. 

5 hours ago, DoctorG said:

Leave if you want to. I don't care, just stop bleating about it.

16 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

snip

Personally I am bored to death with Scotland and their independence and the posters on here who hijack every thread, at every opportunity.

It appears that some people haven't noticed that the thread is about Scotland, if it is a topic they are not interested in why contribute. 

Maybe I should post on every topic I find on TV "I'm not interested/bored/whatever with this topic", or "Stop bleating about this topic". You know,  just to make my mark!!

3 minutes ago, theonetrueaussie said:

"As far as policies go, Harris supports "Medicare for All", the "Green New Deal", and late-term abortion."
These are all FAR left ideologies she even supports socialism/communism submitting multiple proposals in her time to takeover labor markets and give the government much much more control over the people of the USA while taking away their freedoms....

History has taught us that giving up your freedoms has NEVER ended well but hey I'm sure it's worth it this time just for some free stuff right......

Good lord, since when has "Medicare for all" been a far left ideology". The whole of Europe looks upon this as simply standard civilised practice. Much the same for "Green environmental policies".